MSF Experienced Rider Course - My Thoughts

[jeffmiller]

Just a FWIW....

I took the MSF ERC in rain in Normal, IL through the SIU MSF program. Was not thrilled with the rain, but if you want a GREAT boost of confidence in both yourself AND THE ST, take this course.

I gained a ton more confidence in the balance and lean of the ST, and was outturning and maneuvering bikes with lower centers of gravity than mine.

Also, you will clearly see the difference between your ST and 99.99% of the other bikes out there during the braking and stopping exercises.

One of the best 5 hours I ever spent.

[sport_tourer]

The MSF experienced rider course in PA is free. I took the course to get a 5% discount if I decided to go with Geico insurance, but never switched to Geico.

I took the course last year in an absolute torrential downpour all day in about 50 degree weather. It was miserable for most. I took the course on my KTM 640 dual sport because I didnt want to ride the clean ST down to the course in the rain and the KTM needed a bath.

I thought the course was a joke for the most part. When we where requested to stop "as fast as possible", I did so in a controlled manner but just I did so just short of doing a stoppie.... and got reprimanded. I was told to "not stop that fast". ***... u just told me to stop as fast as possible. Then during one of the classroom session, they had some hypothetical situations and two of them contracdicted each other. When I questioned them, I got lame answers.

The course was 95% Harley dressers, me on the KTM, one standard 600 bike, and a Buell Lightning.

Maybe it was just the instructors for the course I took or they catered to the Harely dressers, but it was lame as far as I was concerned. I feel most riders would do better spending 2 hours in an isolated vacant parking lot practicing slow manuevers and quick stops on their own or with friends and another 30 minutes discussing road hazards in a brainstormng session.

I wouldnt recommend the course based on what I experienced.

[malahy1501]

I took the Illinois MSF ERC on Sunday, June 4th. 72 degrees and crystal clear.
Free and you get a tee shirt.

I consider my skills on a bike to be a 5 on a scale of 10, with 10 reserved for the pros and top track amateurs. My scale is also not linear. I consider a rider with a skill of 6 to be twice as good as a 5.

Our class had 7 HD's, a Shadow 750, a Kawi 600, and my ST1100.

Since the ST was new to me, I thought why not get ckecked out by another set of eyes. I thought that I would either improve my skills or comfirm that my skills were OK. Unfortunately it was the latter.

9-10 drills...4 repeat from the BRC, 4 slightly different, and the "BOX" was enlarged by 4 feet in width and 8 feet in length, easier than the BRC. You could turn a plane in there.

To my concern, 6 of the HD's were having trouble with this course, one dumped it. No disrespect for the HD riders implied. My fear stems from how easy it is to get an endorsement and ride in the State of Illinois.

I had mixed feelings when I read Mick from the UK take on the MSF. Now that I have taken it, I must concur with him.

I agree with Chris from PA. Find a lot and practice, practice, practice at least once a month for a couple of hours. By all means take the ERC to verify your skills, but don't expect it to make you that much better.

JMHO

Bill

[Burger]

I consider my skills on a bike to be a 5 on a scale of 10, with 10 reserved for the pros and top track amateurs.

Hi Bill,

I couldn't disagree more with that statement. Riding on a track has very little resemblance to riding on the public roads. Sure professional and top amateur track riders are very skillful - at getting round a track. Track positioning and riding style however is completely wrong for the public roads. Top road riding is all about positioning and observation and then taking appropriate decisions based on those observations which often means adjusting your speed and position based on the relevant hazards. Track riders aim to follow the same line round a track time after time making only small adjustments to try and improve overall speed. On the roads, the most skillful riders are those that are constantly adjusting their speed and position - even for familiar roads and bends, based on the hazards as they exist now.

Regards,

[MidLife]

Maybe it was just the instructors for the course I took or they catered to the Harely dressers, but it was lame as far as I was concerned. I feel most riders would do better spending 2 hours in an isolated vacant parking lot practicing slow manuevers and quick stops on their own or with friends and another 30 minutes discussing road hazards in a brainstormng session.


I think you are right about the instructors.

Mine were absolutely outstanding. All the riders in the course were seasoned. with many many miles on me. The instructors were giving a lot of personalized coaching, finding everyone's weak points and challenging each rider individually, at their own level.

Unlike me, most riders had already taken the course at least once, and the instructors were a little harder on me to make sure I kept up, never cut me any slack, spending more time with me if necessary, nothing but very constructive criticism.

I have nothing but praise on all aspects of the course and felt that I learned a lot. But again, the instructors were outstanding (excellent riders AND excellent teachers).

[CruisingDog]

IMO it's always the teachers and not the material that makes you learn.

[Trekker]

I took my 1st ERC May 6th, 2006 on a drizzly day. I agree that the instructors make the difference. I drove away thinking I did not perform well at all, but also kept thinking about the details they kept talking to me about. It was worth it to me just for all the feedback I received. Cost here in NY was $125, and I will get the HRCA refund of $75.

[HankSTer]

I couldn't agree more with "it's the instructor" comments. cuz I'm an instructor!!!! hahahahahah ;)

Seriously, the correct stopping instructions are "to stop in the shortest distance that you SAFELY can", and believe me I'm yelling SAFELY. So stopping quickly but locking the tires and being almost out of control isn't so good.

It's a drill, a practice, with repetition, you find the shortest distance, without dumping the bike. It isn't, like some people think, a matter of stopping in 3 ft (or whatever) at all costs.

Going over your standard distance for your speed isn't going to do anything but cost you a few points on the test and make you realize it's something you need / want to practice.

Some of the instructors where I work are confusing instructors and not good riders. But I would challenge anyone to find a group like this where the talent and skill doesn't vary. c'est la vie mon ami.

Regards,

[tricky_micky]

Me,

I am all for everything!

It is correct that the instructor makes the training, if they are humurous and know their stuff, you will get the feedback and the best performance out of your student.

It also works the other way, get a boring student and it can put the instructor off. In my opinion, the instructor MUST put themselves out to gain the interest and confidence in their clients, after all, the client is paying, a lot of it is the talent of the instructor to achieve this.

Onto different types of training. It is all good and even track work has it's place. I have never been on a track and dont want to, however, by riding on a track, it gives you more confidence in your bike, skills and you get to know what a bike can actually do in safety.

The big problem is when they try to move those track skills onto the road. That is where 'Burgers' comments come in and I agree with what he has posted. On the public road you do not cut across the apex of a corner as you do on the track, and you leave the wheelies and burn outs there too.

So looking at bike riding logically, it all pays dividends in learning what your limit point is and also what the bike will actually do when taken to it's extremes. I have done it on the road, legally whilst Police Training, and just to re-iterate, Police Forces here in the UK are allowed to go over the National Speed limits of 60 and 70 MPH, this is approved by the Home Office for Police Training purposes only.

I can assure you, at speed of 130 MPH in this country, things happen very quickly and it is only through building the rider up to high speeds via the standard, intermediate and then advanced courses, does it make you confident to open that throttle to it's full limit.

Me, I quickly gain respect of clients because they first wonder what the heck they have let themselves in for! A boring old fart on a Pan European with enuff gizmos on the bike to slow down the National Grid when they are all switched on LOL.

After the assessment ride I do on them, I then go to work, that is when I gain the respect and confidence to the full, I say no more.

All training programmes are good providing, they are structured, the trainer is qualified to carry out that type of training, and the trainer is willing to give 100% effort and have fun whilst doing it.

[Tiny]

So when ya coming over, Mick? ;)

[tricky_micky]

So when ya coming over, Mick? ;)

Tiny

I would come over in a jiffy if I knew I would make money however, I think I would come over there, meet all you guys and just end up on a blooming big 'Jolly' LOL.

Going further about road work with students. I know there is a litigation problem over there and I do understand that, we are getting the same way over here.

Over here, before we take any student out on the road we get them to sign a 'Disclaimer' and a 'Rider Fitness' form. Our forms have had a casting eye over them by solicitors, and they tell us that it would go on our side should anything untoward happen whilst a student is under instruction.

Is there no way that somethig similar could be adopted over there in the US? We give a safety briefing, hand out emergency cards to students, and part of the chat is "You are in full control of your machine at all times" it does go on a little with some more jargon, but if something similar was put together and checked with solicitors or barristers to look see if it would stand up in a court of law, it has probably been done already, but I have never seen anyone post with reference to such forms.

All my trainers throughout the UK have third party liability cover for insurance purposes, and their bikes must be insured for business. If not, then they will get the bullet from me as it is a stipulation in the terms and conditions of contract.

All forms are dated and signed by the student and trainer. I then collate all the forms and keep them as PDF files for 6 years before I consider deleting a copy.

Again, another interestiing thread.

[Tarheel_Rider]

Mick,
I read your other thread with interest. I don't think the limiting factor is our litigous society. The BMW dealer offers rides all the time and to some people with very questionable skills. You sign a waiver, you get a brief safety orientation, and off you go. I know it isn't quite the same as a training course, but I don't think the type of teaching you do is as limited by the fear of lawsuits as it is by the fact that American society hates to have anyone tell them anything, even if it is for their own good. Heck, most states struggled to enact helmet laws. Can you imagine if they tried to implement some graduated licensing program that included 3rd party testing and evaluation? It would never happen. The best most of us can do that really want to learn more is go to a track day or ride with those who are better riders than us, observe and learn. We're pretty lucky in this area with some very good riders like NCSam, BlueRidgeBentAero, NCRider and I'm sure many more that I haven't had the priviledge to ride with. But riding with better riders helps me get better. I'm glad there are some who don't see riding as only an individual activity, and I'm glad some will let less talented riders like myself tag along and learn. We have monthly rides with the BMW group and while those are fairly sedate sessions, you can still learn if you're observant and interested. Sorry for the ramble, but a couple of thoughts from my perspective on the training issues. Cheers,

[EagleSix]

Tiny


Over here, before we take any student out on the road we get them to sign a 'Disclaimer' and a 'Rider Fitness' form. Our forms have had a casting eye over them by solicitors, and they tell us that it would go on our side should anything untoward happen whilst a student is under instruction.

Is there no way that somethig similar could be adopted over there in the US?

I don't want to steal this thread, but just a quick note on liability...

Hi Mick,

Another issue with liability is the un-named party (3rd party) on the agreement. Although I may have my students sign a hold harmless agreement, that agreement doesn't protect me from an innocent 3rd party (even if that 3rd party wasn't innocent!!!). For training I conduct on public access property I make sure all no participants are clear of the area. Some states have suit limits on highway injuries and fatallities, however most states do not, Arizona does not set controllable limits.
.
.

[tricky_micky]

I dont think we are hijacking the thread because it follows on from the original post and for me, it is interesting in yours and everyone elses comments. I think all readers and posters on this thread would agree to that, I hope!

Very interesting on your comments about the third party, but our disclaimer elliminates the trainer from the student and any third party claim because they have signed to say that they are in full control of the machine, and they hold no one responsible, or any person acting on behalf of UK Advanced Ltd for anything untoward that might happen etc during that session. Of course, our insurance cover also looks into the third party litigation, and that covers us up tp 5 Million GBP (minimum) third party claims!

I think it really is a play on words!

Like you say, the client signs a document whilst on an MSF course and I think that may go for a track session. It would be interesting to here Louies comments if he can make any, on this type of issue.

We talk about litigation which is interesting to me, but we also have the Health and Safety issues, cor blimey, we as trainers can get hammered every which way we can think, is it worth it :eek: Of course it is because we as trainers enjoy it and enjoy seeing the satisfaction of a smile from a student and a thankyou at the end of the day.

Without people like yourself and I, there would be no courses available for anyone to attend, be it MSF, Track Day or a UK Advanced session.

So I will lift my glass to all trainers on the forum, and those that participate in those courses. Cheers and beers all, as trainers we are only trying help, and any post or response as far as I am concerned, providing it is constructive of course, I will always read, digest, take it in, and if I can develop myself or our courses from any suggestion, I will I can assure you.

TTFN

[jeffmiller]

Post a positive, and it is a guaranteed here you will find ten negative comments. Had I posted that Starbucks coffee was great, someone would have pounded out a criticism.

Who the h*ll said that it would make you a great rider? I said that it gave me confidence in myself and my bike!

And the box? Don't know what mopes you are taking classes with, but the box is smaller than the BRC.

And if someone tells you to stop in the shortest possible distance, that my friend, would be to hit a solid object. If an instructor fails to tell you to stop safely, note it on your course eval.

And as to practicing.....get together with thirty friends who do it wrong, with no coaching, and what you will turn out is a bunch of goofs who will repeat bad behavior on the street and get themselves and/or others hurt. Coaching from someone who knows the course material is critical, as it corrects bad behaviors and habits and forces you to see what you need to do to improve.

Try and see the positive rather than the negative. Cripes!

[HankSTer]

Jeff,
Dont let one comment bother ya, you posted an informative and thought out critique, well done.
As an instructor I can tell you I have to deal with both pos and neg attitudes. Mostly pos fortunately.
Re the box, actually it is larger on the ERC, by 4 ft I think, I'd have to look in my book to be positive of the amount.

Look at some of the other threads discussing ERC and BRC. There's always some who have a negative attitude towards them. If the course is beneath them, so be it. But if they didn't take advantage of a great learning opportunity because of their attitude, and they find that out the hard way, well that's life in the big city, as they say.

Regards, and I appreciated your comments,

Post a positive, and it is a guaranteed here you will find ten negative comments. Had I posted that Starbucks coffee was great, someone would have pounded out a criticism.

Who the h*ll said that it would make you a great rider? I said that it gave me confidence in myself and my bike!

And the box? Don't know what mopes you are taking classes with, but the box is smaller than the BRC.

And if someone tells you to stop in the shortest possible distance, that my friend, would be to hit a solid object. If an instructor fails to tell you to stop safely, note it on your course eval.

And as to practicing.....get together with thirty friends who do it wrong, with no coaching, and what you will turn out is a bunch of goofs who will repeat bad behavior on the street and get themselves and/or others hurt. Coaching from someone who knows the course material is critical, as it corrects bad behaviors and habits and forces you to see what you need to do to improve.

Try and see the positive rather than the negative. Cripes!

[Clair]

My take ...

yeah, the ERC class is basically the BRC class but on your bike with one or two more exercises. It's in a parking lot, not the streets. In some ways, it's not the real world. That said, however, I love the class.

The ERC is, in my opinion, designed to help you get more familiar with your own bike, how to do various things properly with your own bike, and to teach you that certain things CAN be done with your own bike. For some people, this may be redundant, but for most of it ... something positive can be gained from teh class. I take the class every year. IT's $50 here in Utah and very well taught.

Stopping ... most riders "know" how to stop hard, fast, properly ... uh huh. they've done it "for years" and can stop on a dime. Uh huh. We had a guy in the class who, when asked what's a good method for braking hard and fast respond ... "alternate the brakes between the front and the rear". Mind you, this was a many year rider, he "knew" how to ride. To stop hard, he alternated the brakes ... front, then rear, then front, then rear. IMHO, he had something to learn from this class ... slow progressive squeeze on the brakes and that the front brake is your friend. Other riders were leery of hard front brake pressure ... picturing doing an Endo like you do on your bicycle. The class taught them that they could go heavy on the brake and still remain in control none of these riders were "newbies".

Even on examples as "simple" as the weave .. I saw riders who thought they were expereinced going all over the place. NO control at low speeds. Cruiser, touring, sporty, didn't matter. Then do the weave one handed ... which I admit I sucked at ... then things got really interesting.

We had a guy in a way extended chopper ... he knew his bike wouldn't be able to do must of what we were doing and especially the box (the figure-8). And he was right, he could not ... until he listened to the coaches. Then suddenly, he's turning nicely inside the box, staying within the lines. he's swerving in control, braking well. yet, he had years of experience ...

For me, you only get out of anything what you put in. If you take a class like the ERC and get nothing out of it ... then it was Your choice to get nothing out of it.

[Carl_T]

The class taught them that they could go heavy on the brake and still remain in control none of these riders were "newbies".


Actually with that description of the skills they had coming in, they were “old hands at going along for the ride” the bike is taking them on, and truly bare bottomed "newbies" at controlling their motorcycle. If someone has been riding for 20 years and doesn't know how to do a genuine hard stop using the front brake to maximum potential, or hasn't a clue how to counter-steer or swerve their bike, they've been spending those 20 years much more as a passenger, and far less as a rider.

What the experienced rider course badly needs is to put that course into the “intermediate” rider designation as it is just that at best, and design a couple of more levels of truly experienced rider courses. Hopefully they will do that one day and offer it to people ready for it, so we can have a real progression of road skills in this country that people can aspire to through good training.

[BigTom]

Post a positive, and it is a guaranteed here you will find ten negative comments. Had I posted that Starbucks coffee was great, someone would have pounded out a criticism.

Sometimes there is a reason. I spent years in the coffee business, owned my own shop, roasted, etc. I can't fault Starbucks service, consistency, business model, etc. I go there occasionally. But their coffee leaves something on the table, IMO. Operative word, opinion, mine.

I wish there were more training, more available. I would love a road course such as Mick teaches, and wish an ERC course were available closer than 180mi. I will probably take my first ERC this fall when the weather cools. A group of local Phoenix riders are planning a session...

Mick, per the business model: Bondurant racing school (cars) in Phoenix teaches off road for the road. Is embedded in a race track setting, with huge parking lots that are mostly un used except on weekends. They use one section of (drag strip) parking lot as a skid pan, one has painted intersections, etc. Wouldn't that help enormously? Cornering and technique could be done on the track, real world stuff, off, offering an excellent package. Possibly to be tested 'on road' with a filmed ride? Instead of all instruction being done 'on road' and at risk for litigation? Just an idea....

[tricky_micky]

Mick, per the business model: Bondurant racing school (cars) in Phoenix teaches off road for the road. Is embedded in a race track setting, with huge parking lots that are mostly un used except on weekends. They use one section of (drag strip) parking lot as a skid pan, one has painted intersections, etc. Wouldn't that help enormously? Cornering and technique could be done on the track, real world stuff, off, offering an excellent package. Possibly to be tested 'on road' with a filmed ride? Instead of all instruction being done 'on road' and at risk for litigation? Just an idea....

BT

Now that sounds an interesting proposition that would be worth investigating, what with painted intersections and some strategically placed traffic cones, it could be done.

As they say, "Where there is a will there is a way"

[BigTom]

Mick

They not only have painted roadways, they use cones and the orange safety barriers (artifical straw bales) from the track to add to their intersections. A little sight blockage, and no easy run offs. Looks pretty darn good, to me. I'd like to take a class, not too motivated by cars on the road...but I'd love to qualify to take a 'preped' Corvette or Caddy SCV on the track.

I'd love to do the course on a MC. I'd really love to take it on MY MC.

[clickr]

The MSF experienced rider course in PA is free. I took the course to get a 5% discount if I decided to go with Geico insurance, but never switched to Geico.

I took the course last year in an absolute torrential downpour all day in about 50 degree weather. It was miserable for most. I took the course on my KTM 640 dual sport because I didnt want to ride the clean ST down to the course in the rain and the KTM needed a bath.

I thought the course was a joke for the most part. When we where requested to stop "as fast as possible", I did so in a controlled manner but just I did so just short of doing a stoppie.... and got reprimanded. I was told to "not stop that fast". ***... u just told me to stop as fast as possible. Then during one of the classroom session, they had some hypothetical situations and two of them contracdicted each other. When I questioned them, I got lame answers.

The course was 95% Harley dressers, me on the KTM, one standard 600 bike, and a Buell Lightning.

Maybe it was just the instructors for the course I took or they catered to the Harely dressers, but it was lame as far as I was concerned. I feel most riders would do better spending 2 hours in an isolated vacant parking lot practicing slow manuevers and quick stops on their own or with friends and another 30 minutes discussing road hazards in a brainstormng session.

I wouldnt recommend the course based on what I experienced.

...............yes you were asked to stop as quickly as possible; however, how would you have felt if your front wheel hooked up so "fine" and you ended on your head the first time, or damaged your bike, or hit another rider?

A more reasonable response would have been to stop in a controlled, smooth manner within the stopping length of the area the first time, then as you get more turns at stopping, shorten the distance on each attempt, all the time keeping a "smooth increasing brake pressure". Safety is #1. Control is paramout.

If I were your instructor I would have said "Great Stop", Next turn, take a little longer with smooth, controlled brake action and decrease the distance with each turn." Good Job. "NEXT!"

The desired "teaching - technique" with the quick stop is not how fast you can stop....but how to learn to apply quickly, ever increasing front brake pressure throughout the stop ..... without grabbing the brake lever adn locking up the front tire. I say "squeese, squeese, squeese...." so many riders apply only so much pressure to get the bike to slow down, they don't realize they can continue to squeese the lever harder and harder and harder as they slow down. As you slow down (bike straightend up) the weight of the bike preloads the front suspension and transfers some weight to the front tire. As the font tire grips the road more, the tread flattens out increasing the "patch area" of the tire that contacts the road, enabling more brake pressure to be applied to the tire without it braking loose (locking up). Most riders are not aware of how much pressure they can apply to the front brake if done properly (and on the proper surface).

This skill applies to slowing down before entering a turn too fast where he or she really has to scrub off some speed (20- 30 40 mph) before entering the turn, or at an intersection where your periphial vision picks up a car running the intersection and you can't swerve. Reduce as much speed as you can to avoid the accident or lessen the impact.

Inexperienced riders jab on the front brake, lock up the front tire, down they go and slide forever.....


Cheers, sorry the instructor got your goat.....don't take it personally...remember..you can stop faster with both wheels on the ground than just the font.

I taught the BRC in Ohio for about five years. My biggest complaint was the state had no control or ability to modify the course in any way or they lost their entitelemnet to use the MSF coursework and their liability insurance.

I quit because not enough time was spend in the first two exercises on "stopping". I had several riders in the first exercise ride their bike into the fence because they did not pick up in the previous class how to apply the brakes even though we went through it.

Ohio refused to change the first exercise. To move, brake, move, brake, more some more , then brake some more...it was "get the bike going and ride in a circle...only brake at the end."

Sorry for the rant......BRC and ERC courses are well worth the time and effort and even for the most experienced....chew the meat and spit out the bones.

Cheers.

[Prometheus4given]

anyone read Fred Rau of Motorcycle Consumer News this month re: Rider Training?

[illzoni]

anyone read Fred Rau of Motorcycle Consumer News this month re: Rider Training?

No, I haven't read it, but need to....

*************************

There are several 'sides' to an ongoing dispute involving MSF, some states, some former RSS Instructors, Wendy Moon, etc.

Some accuse MSF of being heavy-handed in protecting their intellectual property rights.

Some states, with some impetus to old RSS Instructors, don't want to transition to the MSF's replacement of the RSS, the BRC, and it's different teaching philosophies.

Seems Wendy Moon has gotten some press, at least some (or maybe all) in MCN and she's been none to friendly with her opinions on MSF.

*************************

Anyway, I subsribed to MCN for years in the mid 90s and always valued it for balanced reporting and evaluation. Hope it's the same. Need to resubscribe.

Jon Ransom
Ventura, CA
STOC 063
MSF RiderCoach (www.msf-usa.org)
current: 91 SSM-ST1100 (new 40A alt)
former: 85 Vulcan, 93 ST1100A, 96 VFR, 89 HawkGT
www.illzoni.com/bikes