Left Hand Turns...

[Elmo]

I've been riding for 30+ years now without a major mishap (thank God), but I really feel that there's one area that I need to improve on. I just don't think I handle some of the tighter left hand turns as well as I should.

More often than not, I find myself hanging too close to the center line (talking two lane roads here) and leaning over the center line as I go through the curve. I think I'm over conscience of getting too close to the outter part of the curve for fear of leaving the road.

More than once, I've met someone during the blind portion of the curve, only to have to make adjustments to get back further on my side where I belong.

Foolish pride in my riding skills (or lack thereof) will not get in the way of me asking for advice. Can anyone else relate to this scenario? Any tips?

Thanks,

Elmo

[Polovision]

I'm always practicing on turns. I don't have a problem staying away from the center line, I have a problem trusting my tires.

[Mellow]

Happens to me all the time... I have this visual that a razor blade truck will be rounding the bend as I'm just leaning over far enough for it to chop my head off...

Practice is the key, being aware of what you feel like you need help with is 99% of the solution.

If it's a blind corner, I just slow down a bit as it gives me some extra time to adjust if an on coming vehicle is near.

[Bones]

The most practical advice I ever received for negotiating a tight turn is to point your nose where you want to go. Don't just look there, but point your nose there. Works for me.

[rob.uk]

Hi Elmo,

On left handers the position which gives you best visibility is normally the safest - keep as far to the right of your lane as you feel comfortable. As you sight the bend approaching, get well over to the right while avoiding loose stuff on the side of the road. Drop your speed on the approach to the bend, get off the brakes well before the bend starts, then go round on constant throttle or slight acceleration (keeping to the right hand third of your lane). When the bend starts to open up and you can see the road ahead, accelerate and move towards the crown of the road again.

The only time you'll lose grip is if you approach the bend too fast and then use the brakes while banked over. It's definitely not wise to take left handers near the crown of the road, or to take a "racing line" where you apex the bend before it opens out.

Sometimes on a left hander there may be a side road to the right. If that's the case you have to take the bend slower and nearer to the center of your lane than you would do otherwise. This is "equalizing" for the risk of a vehicle turning out of the side road.

On right handers the position giving the best visibility is near the crown of your lane (ie left hand third) - but be prepared to "equalize" if you see an oncoming vehicle. "Equalizing" in this case means rolling off throttle slightly (no brakes!), tighten the turn and move towards the right of your lane to give plenty of distance between you and the oncoming vehicle.

Hope this helps ...

Cheers,
Rob

[Wake ForeST]

Sorry, I'm reminded of a Joe Bar Team poster entitled:

"The bike always goes where you look".

10541

Hope it's not too risque, I, ahh, edited it a little for a PG rating.


:hyp1:

[Jamie Z]

On right handers the position giving the best visibility is near the crown of your lane (ie left hand third) - but be prepared to "equalize" if you see an oncoming vehicle. "Equalizing" in this case means rolling off throttle slightly (no brakes!), tighten the turn and move towards the right of your lane to give plenty of distance between you and the oncoming vehicle.
Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm still in my rookie season, but if you want to corner tighter, wouldn't the proper technique be to roll on the throttle slightly and lean more?

By rolling off the throttle, you're forced to stand the bike up a bit more, thus increasing the radius of your turn.

Jamie

[Highrider]

This is something that probably should not be left to a discussion thread. There is so much that goes into a simple maneuver such as this that we don't think about or even realize. Take a riding class and get some instruction from the pro's - it will help tremendously with your confidence in the bike and yourself. You will realize an immediate improvement in your riding skills and your ability to control your machine.

[ST1300 Alicia]

I'm always practicing on turns. I don't have a problem staying away from the center line, I have a problem trusting my tires.
So I'm not the only one who has trouble trusting their tires. Thought it was just me. I cannot imagine leaning over far enough to scrape the pegs and not having the tires just take off and leave.
LOVE THIS FORUM!
ALICIA

[Clair]

SLOW ... LOOK ... lean ... roll ...

Left handers get me too. Here in the mountains, there's usually nothing after the white line ... no burm, usually some kind of drop off, even if it's just a drainage gully or whatever. Also, debris from the hillsides usually clutter that right edge of the road ... thus, I just KNOW I'm gonna slip if I stay right. There's really no room for error. So, like you, I tend to enter left turners more in the center than right. Im working on this, basically facing my fear as it were. It just comes down to teh basics really ... SLOW, LOOK, lean and roll.

I'm also doing a track day in July on the ST which I'm hoping will really help my cornering skills. Finally, I can work on corners without worrying about debris on the road, oncoming traffic! YAY.

[tricky_micky]

Take a look in the riding techniques forum, there has been some discussion on this subject already.

It may help you to understand a little more.

[Byron]

Elmo,

I know what you mean. I think part of the problem is that going from a car, that won't have you over the line, to the bike which will. Other factors are not wanting to put the tires in the center of the lane and the already mentioned nothing but air if I leave the road. It's an adjustment the mind refuses to make some times. We think that if we stay to the center we're quicker when sometimes we just need to slow down a bit. Living near the hills I have a 12 mile run up the mountain that I like to do on the way home from work. I use it to work on smoothing my actions out and trying to make the adjustments previously listed. I also work on the down hill part because that's one of my uncomfortable zones.

More practice, don't you hate it :D.

[dduelin]

It's just the opposite for me. My left footpeg gets much more wear than the right one does. When I was getting familar with cornering the ST the left peg was the first one to touch. For whatever reason I am more comfortable in left hand curves. I guess maybe my sight range is usually further in left turns or the pavement edge at the apex is further away. That last part shouldn't make sense because I mentally treat the centerline as a wall or guardrail.

[CrashTestDanny]

So I'm not the only one who has trouble trusting their tires. Thought it was just me. I cannot imagine leaning over far enough to scrape the pegs and not having the tires just take off and leave.
LOVE THIS FORUM!
ALICIA

That'd make three of us at least. I put the Z6's on my ST at 8500 miles. I was having trouble trusting them from day 1 - they just didn't feel as grabby as the OEM Dunlops. I don't think that contributed to my crash, but even now at 12k miles (3500 on the tires) I can't stand the way the bike feels in a turn. Plus, they're beginning to cup already and they've never been low on air. Anyway, I'm putting some pilot roads on in the next week or two and if that doesn't make it handle right, I'll be going back to the OEM Dunlops.

[STnAV8R]

The most practical advice I ever received for negotiating a tight turn is to point your nose where you want to go. Don't just look there, but point your nose there. Works for me.

That's what they teach in MSF according to an instructor friend of mine.

[STnAV8R]

So I'm not the only one who has trouble trusting their tires. Thought it was just me. I cannot imagine leaning over far enough to scrape the pegs and not having the tires just take off and leave.
LOVE THIS FORUM!
ALICIA

Maybe we need a government imposed restriction on bank angle. :)

[JReviere]

Well, Gents and Ladies, I've been riding for something over 60 years. If it can be done wrongly without fatality, I've done it ... most likely many times.
Still the best answer to the specific question about leaning left over the centerline of a two lane road is the one about starting as far to the right as you can so you can see as far as possible around the hook, gage your speed and lean angles to keep your tires in the middle or to the right of the middle of your lane.

The next best hint is the point your nose thing... never thought of nose... but I do concentrate on LOOK WHERE YOU WANT TO GO and you'll go there.

And... if you're like most riders, you most probably find steeper lean angles to the left to be more natural and more comfortable than to the right for some reason.

The key, however, in all this is, as in most anything requiring finely honed skills: PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE.... Keep your eyes looking where you want to go and keep your BRAIN working well out in front of where the bike is.

JR
STOC 394

[naturally wired]

Lefts are the easy ones for me, but throw in a tar snake or two and its pucker city for me !

[jacketsfan]

I'm always practicing on turns. I don't have a problem staying away from the center line, I have a problem trusting my tires.
+1 here on that point. My personal solution for that is therapy in the form of finding as many turns as I can and practicing my countersteering as much as possible. The "pointing your nose in the direction you want to go" is the best possible advice also. The peg scrape, while not your goal, is something you want to get used to hearing as a reminder you are approaching the limit of lean, not necessarily that you've gone too far. And whatever you do, DON'T start to slow when you hear it. You will lose traction, and traction is your best friend. Get used to the peg scrape and not treat it as your enemy.

Easy to say. Harder to do. I still get the heebie-jeebies when I hear the peg scrape. But I'm learning.

[STnAV8R]

And... if you're like most riders, you most probably find steeper lean angles to the left to be more natural and more comfortable than to the right for some reason.
JR
STOC 394

Only on blue bikes. The red ones lean right easier.

[Carl_T]

A few clarifications come to mind.

First you have to have a "line of travel plan" for your wheels going round the bend, before you ever reach your turn in point. You need to know exactly where you want your wheels to be placed... have a mental line that you plan to follow, and follow it in every country road turn (excepting for when the road or traffic makes you adjust it). Practice so you can easily ride within 3 inches of your imaginary turn in point and line through the turn.

You can't go anywhere good unless you already know where that is. If you do not set a line for yourself and do not set a turn in point for yourself, the road will force one on you willy nilly like rolling dice, depending upon where you accidentally position your bike this time around. The road will do that whether you are ready or not and whether it is good for you and the bike or not, so instead choose your own line on approach and make it a good one.

Learn the difference between good lines and poor lines.

As a general rule always plan to go no closer than within 3 feet of the center line on right hand approaches, and 3.5-4 feet on left hand apexes (Definition of APEX= the spot in the bend where your ride closest to the inside of the bend). This will keep your head out of normal traffic. Be looking far enough down the road to know if someone is coming at you in your lane.


Since I have been teaching my wife to ride again I had to find a simpler way for her to handle blind turns with a reasonably good line.

While I have been plotting and riding imaginary turn in points and lines long enough to be very comfortable starting a turn from a few inches off the white shoulder line going into a turn (IF the surface is clean enough for that), my wife certainly isn't, nor should she try that at this point. The following is what I came up with for her in blind turns that have some time duration to them (it's pretty close to what Rob described).

We'll take a left bend US driving direction.

Approaching the bend read the radius of the center of your lane to judge your speed setting (I always use the center of my lane for various good reasons, whatever radius you read, use the same system in all bends so you get good at it).

Plan ahead to run your line in the outside car wheel track through the first part of the bend (this takes you away from traffic and gets you starting the bend from the outside, most any rider skill level should manage to run the outside track without fearing they will run off the road).

On approach, mentally visualize the portion of your intended line you can see (in the outside car track in this case).

Mentally spot, and note in memory your turn in point to accomplish your intended line.

Eyes up off your turn in point to the vanishing point/limit point of the bend (KEEPING the turn in point IN PERIPHERAL VISION AWARENESS). Eyes up BEFORE you get to the turn in point.

As you slide your eyes up to the vanishing/limit point check the road surface for trouble.

This is a long duration blind turn you’ve not run before, so you cannot really know where the best apex is ahead of time.

Watch the vanishing/limit point with direct focus. Turn in smartly to correct lean angle when you see you are reaching the chosen turn in point with your peripheral vision. (you can easily teach yourself to do this at slow reduced speeds).

Keep your intended line in mind and in peripheral vision. Ride that intended line with the bike wheels. Use a small-ish steady throttle “maintenance throttle” (unless you have entered very slow and can roll on some to up the speed to correct, you are in this turn a long time).

Check for tarmac color changes or texture changes along your intended line with peripheral vision, if you see some, quickly look directly at it to check it for trouble, and then eyes up to the VP/LP again. Adjust line if needed due to surface troubles.

Continue to run the outside tire track at a speed just slow enough that it will allow you to lean a bit more and dive down towards the yellow line for apexing later in the turn, within your skill level.

When you see the VP start to travel away from you and you see the turn is about to open up into the exit… Then dive down towards the yellow line, and towards your exit, to apex at the yellow and drift to the outside wheel track again at final exit. This final line apexes and straightens out the exit phase of the turn so you can go to a nice roll on of throttle a bit early due to this apex to exit lines larger radius, (after apexing).

Do not go closer than 3.5 to 4 feet of the yellow line at apex. This will keep your head out of traffic. You know you wont run on the yellow because you have your intended line already plotted in your imagination and are watching it peripherally, so you know where to go and when.

I will go find the late apex thread and make a diagram of this type of long duration blind turn line to add to it, so all this will then be clearer. Words are often poor illustrations.

This will not necessarily be the most absolute optimal line for the corner, but it will be a very good one for this type of unknown turn compared to other possibilities. It will still allow you a reasonable degree of slow in fast out, and keep you out of traffic. If you see traffic coming at you a bit in your lane, when the exit is revealing, just remain in the outside lane rather than apexing. You will then exit slower on the gas later, but you won’t argue with a car about lane ownership.

You can do long duration right hand turns similar, but must be able to see far enough ahead (and have extra lean angle in reserve) to be able to cut inside if a car appears in your lane. You need to expect the possibility and be mentally prepared to do a smart countersteer to the inside of the turn. After starting the turn you can always run a bit closer to the middle than the "yellow line side tire track" to get some extra separation from oncoming traffic in long duration right hand bends.

In turns of quick duration you can guess late apexes much easier and more accurately and don’t need this sort of line. This sort of line will prepare your judgement for more proper short duration late apex turns also.

I’d like to correct one thing said here. While braking mid-turn will stand many bikes up and not others (I have my SV suspenders tuned so it does not stand up when going to the front brake in a turn).

Going off the throttle in a turn WILL NOT stand up most bikes. It WILL tighten the line, slow the speed, make counter steering easier/more responsive (so long as there is sufficient front wheel traction), and tip most bikes into the turn more tightening the line. HOWEVER, the bike is normally at its most unstable at trailing throttle, at high lean angles. It will load the front wheel more. If you do it very smoothly, slowly, it is certainly a valid way to help you tighten a line in a pinch, SO LONG AS you still have more lean angle to go before grounding out. It COULD squat the suspension some and make you ground out a tad sooner. However at street speeds it is most often a valid option to help you out of trouble, helping tighten your line and slow your speed.

Whatever you do mid turn needs to be done smoothly, gently, slowly. Use good observation to gain adequate lead time for changing things.

If you add more gas, to a bike that already has the throttle on, and try to tighten the turn, it WILL make countersteering take additional pressure to accomplish, it will stand the bike up more which will have to be overcome with further countersteering. HOWEVER, it will also tend to extend the suspension giving you a tad of ground clearance, and add a bit of stability to the bike. That only is though, IF it doesn’t overwhelm rear wheel traction due to high lean angles.

In my opinion if you are dragging things and need to tighten your line for an emergency your best bet is the following. Ride with shoulders and head inside the bikes centerline some in general, and know how to move shoulders and backside FAR to the inside, mid turn (using foot pegs as purchase to slide butt over inside) WITHOUT disrupting the chassis (I personally practice how to do this without the bike getting upset about it). Moving your body far inside combined with being sure to have a bit of throttle on (you can not have a lot of throttle on at maximum lean) should give you a few degrees of extra lean to tighten the line a small bit extra.

The moral is don’t go around dragging things in turns where surprises can hide in the first place.

[Carl_T]

Plus 1 on the Z6 tires being stickier and having superior turn in charecteristics to OEM. Michelins are said to be fine tires as well. Haven't tried them but would assume Pirellis to be good also.

[rob.uk]

Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm still in my rookie season, but if you want to corner tighter, wouldn't the proper technique be to roll on the throttle slightly and lean more?

By rolling off the throttle, you're forced to stand the bike up a bit more, thus increasing the radius of your turn.

Jamie

Well ... you increase the throttle on the exit from a turn partly to sit the bike up, definitely not to tighten the turn ... more throttle increases the turn radius.

Assuming you're in USA, near the center line on a right hander and you see an oncoming vehicle, you either maintain constant throttle or reduce throttle very slightly as you push the right bar / increase the lean / turn tighter to create a bigger gap between you and the oncoming vehicle.

[Scarman]

I finally had a chance to take my ST out on a good fast twisty piece of road about a month ago. I went out with a group of very experienced sport bikes. At one point I was asked to take the lead down a road with 12 miles of posted 20mph turns one right on top of the next with a few switch backs.

I was impressed with the ST. The bike just lays over without much effort and it sticks there rock solid. Accelerate out of a turn and the bike quickly snaps back up and I could snap it over into the next turn. A full on sport bike it isn't but it is very capable of running hard through tight turns. At one point the guys behind me caught a glimpse of me as we ran around the corners and one of them thought I had gone down because it looked like the bike was laying on it's side.

The key for me is entering the turn at the right speed and looking through the turn. I quickly scan the road surface as I approach the turn and adjust my speed, but as I enter the turn I'm focused on my exit as far as the tightness of the turn allows. As soon as I can see the exit and beyond, my mind is focused on the next turn adjusting my speed and scanning the road surface as I approach. You have to get good at judging your entry speed and holding it with a little throttle through the turn then accelerating as you begin your exit. Of course there are many variables that you can encounter as you approach the turn or when you're in the turn. IMO it requires a lot of experience to handle running tight turns at a fast pace. Oh... and keep those toes up on the pegs. If you drag your foot, it can jerk your leg back and really through you off balance.

[FireSporT]

I'm with ST Pilot on the itres. I run the 880/Z6 combo. I wont claim to be the best rider out there, but I ran the Dragon 8 times yesterday (Fathers Day Present). The tires held great. I can scrape the pegs, but first I had to get my feet out of the way. I ran the "chicken Stripes" right off a newer set of Metz's (~2k on them). The bike will take everything I give it (and more).

ST Pilot - After the pegs what's next to scrape. I haven't been that adventerous. The pegs were hard enough.

That being said, Practice, Practice, Practice is the only way. My first pass (first time at the dragon this year) was not very pretty. Each run got better and better. After the 3rd pass I was keeping up with an R1 and SV650.

I also noticed that I have to stay focused on my riding. I have to look right where I want to take the bike (looking ahead).

[MNwing]

What about being left handed vs. right handed? Remember reading in Wing World a few years back you can tell by tire wear if the person is left or right handed. True or not?

[John Anthony]

+1 on taking a good class. Maggie and I recently attended a one day clinic at Willow Springs race track conducted by Street Masters. Worth its weight in gold. In their case, it's practice in small groups under the watchful eyes of a number of really solid instructors.

John