Apex

[STumpy]

I am having a rough time trying to figure out where to start the turn. I try to judge the middle of the curve and figure that for the apex, but it is always too soon. Can anyone offer some advice on this?

[Kempo-STer]

Do a search on a post by Carl_T titled 'Delayed APEX'..

It is very good and will give you something to think about.

[STumpy]

Do a search on a post by Carl_T titled 'Delayed APEX'..

It is very good and will give you something to think about.

Great! Thanks :)

[tricky_micky]

+1

In the riding techniques section you will see a lot of info, plus there is a link to a demo ride I did some time ago. I know it is all done on the other side of the road, but it may give you some idea.

[STumpy]

+1

In the riding techniques section you will see a lot of info, plus there is a link to a demo ride I did some time ago. I know it is all done on the other side of the road, but it may give you some idea.

I guess I am (according to a book I am reading) what English riders call Fifty Pencing. Whenever I think I see the apex, I end up having to do more than one because I keep misjudging it.

I hope I can find that demo ride post, visual works much better for me.
Thanks Mick :bow1:

[tricky_micky]

I guess I am (according to a book I am reading) what English riders call Fifty Pencing. Whenever I think I see the apex, I end up having to do more than one because I keep misjudging it.

I hope I can find that demo ride post, visual works much better for me.
Thanks Mick :bow1:

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWFHOq0PlDk

Second one:

http://media.putfile.com/Training1-18

Third one:

http://media.putfile.com/Training-Clip

First clip is about 6 minutes long and the other two are of a rider on our course. Hope it helps.

[clickr]

Race track apex's (turns) are walked by the riders to memorize each and every turn and exit.

On the road we don't have that experience and even if we have ridden that same curve a hundred times approach the curve and apex (based on the exit ) ... only as far as you can see into the curve.

Long freeway exits - turn your head toward the exit point and rotate your eyes back and forth following the curve and adjust your throttle and lean to accomidate the curve. (decreased radisus turns will require more lean as you progress into the curve.)

The number one problem with adjusting the bike for the curve is "too much entry speed". Slow down for the unexpeced "truck", "deer", flock of Geese, or that Squirrel sunning himself in the middle of your lane.

Smooth throttle response (try not to decelerate) - will help keep the bike settled down in it's suspension and enable you to lean to control the direction of the bike. ON and OFF throttle responses in a turn upset the bikes geometry and causes all kinds of problems. (reduced directional stability, reduced braking force (if needed))

Try not to brake in the curve while leaned over. Leaning over GREATLY reduces the traction and braking capability. Bikes turn by "push righ - lean right - go right" and can switch between right and left in an amazing short time-span. If you find yourself fairly upright and moving toward the outside of the curve at a speed you believe is too fast.....trust your bike and push on the handlebar toward the inside of the curve to move the bike. Once you have some room straighten up some and apply some brake. The sequence is Lean, straighten - then brake, lean again, straighten and brake, then lean again.

Don't follow the guy in front of you at "his or her speed", if you can't see the exit before you enter the turn or curve: "SLOW DOWN", then push/lean/turn.

Cheers.

[STumpy]

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWFHOq0PlDk

Second one:

http://media.putfile.com/Training1-18

Third one:

http://media.putfile.com/Training-Clip

First clip is about 6 minutes long and the other two are of a rider on our course. Hope it helps.

That helps! Let me see if I got this right. The apex is not necessarily the exact middle of the curve, but rather that point in which you can see throuigh to the exit of the curve. Does that make sense?

[tricky_micky]

That helps! Let me see if I got this right. The apex is not necessarily the exact middle of the curve, but rather that point in which you can see throuigh to the exit of the curve. Does that make sense?

Correct.

Riders read bends differently, some use the 'Limit Point' as a guide and run with that but the 'Limit Point' looking round the bend is another section to build upon.

The Apex of a bend is the point where the rider decides to come away from the central position if going round a right hand bend (US style) and back into your normal safety riding position.

Most students I have, come off the bend or position a little too early and I try to teach them to hang on the line of the curve a fraction longer before coming back onto their normal riding line.

What you are trying to do is to increase the radius of the curve. By increasing the radius you get a better view which gives you time to react. Also, by increasing the radius of a curve, it helps you to hold a little more speed than if you were to ride the curve tight as a normal rider would do.

So, on a left hand bend (US style) your position should be to the right hand side. You should hold that position as long as you can. What you must avoid is coming off that line early and cutting across the apex of that bend which relates to the 'Racing Line'

The 'Racing Lines' are great on a track, but there is nothing coming towards you. Now when going round a left hand curve and you have positioned to the right as much as you can, you hold that line until you can see the road opening up and it is safe to move away. If you move off that line too early and 'Cut' the apex such as the 'Racing Line' as you lean over, your head is actually across on the other side of the road and is dangerous.

I think the video clips show the rider holding the lines on the curves nicely. The only time he has cut across more is the points when you can actually see across the hedgerows (Cross Views) and you are absolutely sure that nothing is coming towards you, then we may think about straight lining the bend a little.

Very difficult to explain to be honest. You have probably read Carl_T's posts, I have spoekn with Carl and we both agree with the points that we are trying to put over, the advantage Carl has is that he is very good with graphics and I really admire his dedication.

If you watch the first clip again, our own 'Yellow Wolf' overtakes a car on a left hand curve, that was completely safe because of the views. He then goes into a small section of curves. Those curves are where I used to go check myself when I was in the job! My fastest recorded speed on VASCAR throughout those curves was 106.4 MPH, I stayed on my own side of the road and the final curve is a slow one, but that was my highest speed that I could go through them. If I could hit an average speed of 100 MPH through those curves, I new that I still had the 'Edge' and I was on the ball so to speak. So, after having a few days off, I made for that section to see how I was, if I could not hit an average of 100MPH, then I would go do it again until I could. That was my benchmark and helped me to 'Stay in One Piece' whilst in the Force and on the bikes.

Hope the little info helps, but everyone has to practice at all levels. I know I have made comments about the MSF courses etc, but I still have the outlook that if it makes you feel good, and you feel more stable after it and you have learned something from it, it has got to be good for anyone.

UK style, our training techniques are different because it is all done on the road. Sorry it was a long one, but I would do anything to help anyone make themselves a better, safer rider.

[tricky_micky]

If anyone is 'Flush' enough and would like me to come over there for a few weeks, I would be delighted to providing air fare, accomodation and all expenses are met, I would do the rest free of charge LOL I would luv to meet you guys LOL

:bow1: :D :D :D

[STumpy]

Correct.

Riders read bends differently, some use the 'Limit Point' as a guide and run with that but the 'Limit Point' looking round the bend is another section to build upon...........The Apex of a bend is the point where the rider decides to come away from the central position if going round a right hand bend (US style) and back into your normal safety riding position..

Thanks Mick!

Your explanation, together with the video's, makes it so much easier to understand. I was moving to the outside radius after starting the curve instead of before reaching the curve, then I was trying to determine the middle of the curve without paying attention to the exit of the curve. Both of those combined lead me to creating mutliple apexes in one turn. After watching the videos, then reading your post, it is all starting to make sense.

[tricky_micky]

Thanks Mick!

Your explanation, together with the video's, makes it so much easier to understand. I was moving to the outside radius after starting the curve instead of before reaching the curve, then I was trying to determine the middle of the curve without paying attention to the exit of the curve. Both of those combined lead me to creating mutliple apexes in one turn. After watching the videos, then reading your post, it is all starting to make sense.

No problem

Glad to be of help and assistance, it does take time and practice to get it right, so keep up the good work, we never stop learning!

[DataHawk]

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWFHOq0PlDk


I was wondering, with your permission of course, if it would be possible to either post the video somewhere or email that video to me so I may show it to my students?

[tricky_micky]

I was wondering, with your permission of course, if it would be possible to either post the video somewhere or email that video to me so I may show it to my students?

To large a file to email! That was 6 minutes of the film (just about 90 meg), it does run for about 40 minutes in total so it would have to be via snail mail on DVD if you wanted a copy.