Am I mad?

[Burger]

For as long as I can remember, I have admired the looks of the Honda Goldwing. Each time they've changed it, I think they've made it look better than before and that's not always the case with some vehicles. Anyhow, because of my stability concerns with my ST and the difficulty I have getting comfortable over 100miles or so, I now find that I keep thinking about a Goldwing, and so I've just arranged to test ride one this coming weekend. I do though have some questions that I'd appreciate answers to from people in the know... Please remember, I'm in the UK.

The current model in the UK is last years model in the US (Without built in Nav etc.). I understand the current US model will arrive with us next year and I'd like to know if there is anything that makes that worth waiting for? Does anyone know if there have been other changes other than the obvious addition of built in nav?

I was told, by an ex Goldwing rider that all wings bars shake as you slow from 50 to 30mph. Is that true or is this another ST Heat/Stability type issue? :D Are there any other inherrent issues or concerns I should be aware of?

I'm only going to get 30 mins to test ride this thing... it's at a dealers open day and it's being supplied by Honda UK for the weekend. Is there anything I should be aware of or look out for? In 30 mins, any specific tests I should perform?

How does the turning circle of a goldwing compare to the ST? I know they have electric reverse, and I'm not bothered about slow turns so much... more, will I be able to turn it round in my garage?

A question more for the UKers... am I completely stark raving bonkers for considering this? If you think I am... why? Keep in mind that we fully intend to do some touring around Europe next year... or maybe even later this year.

I'm kinda hoping I'm going to hate it, but I'm not sure I will :D

Thanks,

[Ken]

I've only ridden one Wing - a 2004 GL1800 - but have many miles on it and have never experienced the 50-30 MPH deceleration bar shake. What a fantastic bike though.

[Bones]

I test rode a GL1800 in 2002 and loved it. If I did a lot of 2-up riding, it would likely be the bike for me. Moving from an ST to a GL would be akin to moving from a mid-size sport sedan to a full size luxury sport sedan in the car world. Based on my experience you give up a bit of nimbleness and get back a good measure of creature comforts. Hard to go wrong with either one. Get one of each?

[Mellow]

The current model in the UK is last years model in the US (Without built in Nav etc.). I understand the current US model will arrive with us next year and I'd like to know if there is anything that makes that worth waiting for? Does anyone know if there have been other changes other than the obvious addition of built in nav?

Since they just changed the 06 Wing, I would think they aren't going to make any more substantial changes for at least 5 years.

I was told, by an ex Goldwing rider that all wings bars shake as you slow from 50 to 30mph. Is that true or is this another ST Heat/Stability type issue? :D Are there any other inherrent issues or concerns I should be aware of?

My '01 Wing did, my '03 ST1300 did, my '05 Wing does. Could be tire wear but has happened on new ones, could be bearings.. who knows for sure, doesn't bother me as I've only noticed it when my hands are off the bars... and they really shouldn't be off the bars especially when decelarating.

Heat - nah, you don't really feel any heat from the bike, you will feel heat because you aren't getting much air flow, I added some mirror wings which push the air right at my chest, feels 10 degrees cooler and it also helps keep your hands from getting cold in freezing weather.

Stability - My '96 Shadow, '99 Valk, '01 Wing, '03 ST and '05 Wing all had a high speed wobble type issue - I think it's more that you have a big fairing that, while somewhat aerodynamic, isn't like a hyabusa.. so, a minor crosswind that you might not even know is there, may make you wobble some.. my cure - I just don't go 130 on the wing.. I still do from time to time and sometimes there's a little wobble and sometimes not.. but really, I try to keep things under 3 digits for the most part... you can still have fun with such a restricted limitation :D

I'm only going to get 30 mins to test ride this thing... it's at a dealers open day and it's being supplied by Honda UK for the weekend. Is there anything I should be aware of or look out for? In 30 mins, any specific tests I should perform?

You can do the 50-30 decel with no hands.. might shake, might not..

It's a great bike and it's obviously on the top of my list, 2nd would be the ST, 3rd is a draw between the v-strom and the GS only price makes one choice easier..

How does the turning circle of a goldwing compare to the ST? I know they have electric reverse, and I'm not bothered about slow turns so much... more, will I be able to turn it round in my garage?

It turns incredibly well, and in my opinion much easier than the ST. I know, "Mellow, You're nuts!" but, with the wing, you can turn the handlebars until they touch... and apply steady power and it will just walk around nice and tight... it's more of a mental thing, you know the bike is big so you just don't believe it can turn as tight as it does.. but, the center of gravity really makes it easy... you could play with that some.

Otherwise, just ride it and see how you like it...

I'm kinda hoping I'm going to hate it, but I'm not sure I will :D
You fool!.. what idiot would get a Wing!...

[Burger]

Since they just changed the 06 Wing, I would think they aren't going to make any more substantial changes for at least 5 years.

That's my question Joe... what did they change for your 06 other than the obvious. We don't get that model until next year... err... like I said :D I want to know if there are any really significant changes that make your 06 model worth waiting for.

Thanks,

[Burger]

I test rode a GL1800 in 2002 and loved it. If I did a lot of 2-up riding, it would likely be the bike for me. Moving from an ST to a GL would be akin to moving from a mid-size sport sedan to a full size luxury sport sedan in the car world. Based on my experience you give up a bit of nimbleness and get back a good measure of creature comforts. Hard to go wrong with either one. Get one of each?

So what you're saying Bones is that as my 4 wheeled choice of transport is a Jaguar XJ... the wing is probably for me :D Just as I thought lol.

[Mellow]

Personally, I'd get an '05 as you can get it w/abs if that's important.

There were some changes with the size of radiator/fans, but I think everything else was the audio/comfort/nav/abs packages.

The main issues with the Wing in the past have been the Frame welds and the Overheating.

As I understand it, the welding process was modified and late '04 thru the current models have the beefier welds, previous models may or may not have needed some rewelding. My '01 didn't.

As for the overheating - since the fans blow forward, sucking air from the sides and shooting hot air out the front of the bike, there are situations where the fans don't turn on and you are not getting enough movement to push air across the radiators.. causing the temp guage to rise. Kicking the bike into a higher gear and lugging it fools the computer and it will kick on the fan - I think that's the trick.. can't remember.. usually I'm in stop/go traffic when it happens and by the time the guage starts to rise - we get moving again. In 50k miles it happened once on my '01 and in 22k miles it's happened a couple times on my '05 - all stop/go traffic situations.. Now, you have to understand the guage is very sensitive.. .the guage might only be moving from 220 degrees to 240 (I have no idea what is normal op temp).

Yeah - all bikes have some issues...

[motomac]

Burger, I have an '06 and put 103,000+ miles on an '01. Yes, there is a bit of wobble in decel with no hands on the bars, but how often do you ride no handed? The big difference in the '06 and the previous models is the instrument panel. Also if you want ABS you have to get the GPS, comfort package and end up buying more than you would have if you got an '05 or older. I cannot imagine anyone who has a lot of touring experience not likeing the GL 1800. It handles like a much smaller motorcycle, and as Joe has said, very nimble at any speed. It is extremely comfortable right out of the gate and is very capable of 1000 mile days back to back to.....

[Rory MacDonell]

Burger,
I just recently traded a 2003 Goldwing for a 2006 Yamaha Royal Star Midnight Venture, and sold a 2002 Kawasaki Nomad to get my 06 ST1300. The wheel base on the Wing is long, about 65" or so, compared to the ST1300. The weight distribution will be totally different with more of the weight on the Wing up forward and low. Rear suspension is electrically adjustable, as is the headlight beam. The same basic equipment is on the 05 and 06 Wings. The radical difference for the newer Wings will be the models having the GPS system will have the screen in the middle of the dash, and the radio controls moved to the right fairing panel. No changes to engine, transmission, etc. The Wing is an excellent touring bike giving a nice, stable ride, while at the same time having plenty of torque and seeming to ba sporty as well. If you are really serious about looking for a good touring bike, if you can, check out the Yamaha Royal Star Ventures. The bikes come with an unlimited 5 year warranty, and come with AM/FM/CB radio and Stereo Cassette. The Ventures look more like motorcycles and I believe you get more for the money. As far as the question of the "wobbles" on the Wing, some bikes seem to have it and some do not. Mine did not have it until I changed from Dunlop tires to Metzlers, and then only a very slight wobble was present when slowing down going through about 35 mph. At any rate, I think you will like the ride of the Wing, just remember it is a heavy bike, and once you get used to the longer wheel base and very slightly wider turning radius, you will like it.
Rory MacDonell

[Burger]

Appreciate all the responses... thanks. My biggest fear is I'm going to love it lol.

Is there a good source of info on wings? Somewhere like this place? I'd like to do some investigation into what self maintenance is like etc.

You know the worst thing over here is that a new wing retails for GBP 17,399.00... or $31,899.00 !!!!!

I wonder what sort of allowance I'd get for my less than 1 year old ST?

See... I'm planning it already... gee... I better hate this thing lol

Thanks,

[Mellow]

Maintenance.... what's that.. change the oil and tires.

Anything else, just let me know..

www.ridersrally.com has a great group of folks.

[motomac]

Wing maintenance is covered by the message boards at gwrra.org and ridersrally.com. As far as I know there is no Gold Wing board like the ST-owners board. Mellow tried to start one, but there was no real interest so he closed it.

[JReviere]

[QUOTE=Burger]For as long as I can remember, I have admired the looks of the Honda Goldwing. Each time they've changed it, I think they've made it look better than before and that's not always the case with some vehicles. Please remember, I'm in the UK.
(snipped)
Burger. I rode Wings for almost 20 years. I've owned at least 2 of every model save the GL1800. I've ridden a GL1800. It's the best handling, most responsive of all wings. I changed to ST because the wing got to be TOO ORNATE and gadget laden for my taste... and too expensive...Being single and riding solo, I don't need that elaborate GIB seat. None the less, the Wing is beyond measure the finest touring motorcycle ever built. That "bar shake" at 30-50mph... loose steering head bearings or deformed front tire...All large heavy bikes with full fairings with castered front suspension/steering will wiggle or shake or "search" for straight ahead unless they have some friction in the steering to dampen this natural tendency which is a function of the outside circumference of the tire and speed. It's not a real problem. As for "heat issues"... a big liquid cooled 1800cc engine is going to shed a lot of heat... some folks find it a bit much, but most people don't find it a problem. As for creature comfort, there is no motorcycle built more comfortable on long days in the saddle than a GoldWing. Put a Russell Day Long saddle on it and ride it from home to Vladavostok ... You'll be comfortable and it won't require any routine maintenance along the way... it's not likely to require anything but petrol and lube oil changes either..... If I rode 2 up I'd be riding a Wing. That about says it all.......

JReviere
Lake Livingston, Texas
jrev@cebridge.net

[Ken]

Is there a good source of info on wings? Somewhere like this place? I'd like to do some investigation into what self maintenance is like etc.

This one (http://www.gl1800riders.com/forums/index.php) is real good too - lots of activity.

[sherob]

Oh, Burger... you know you'll love it... here is a toast to your ride this weekend :)

http://www.technidata.com/graph/dqcmhngr.jpg

[Pred8tor]

My biggest fear is I'm going to love it lol.

I've been getting very curious about wings, too. And I share your "fear". I'd like to ride one to see what it's like... but what if I found I loved it??? :eek:

I'm very interested in hearing about your test ride!

[Horst]

hey buddy ... :)

I made the mistake of owning a GL1500 a few years back .... :cool:

the problem is, no other bike was as *comfortable* as that one was ... :(

in other ways though, you will give up something like quickness and nimbleness (some would say even the ST is too big) and, you can't take the bags off like on my ST1100 .... :(

I *love* the way my ST11 looks and handles 'naked' ... this you cannot have with a Wing ... but for two up long touring, yes, there's nothing like it ....

but wait ... there is another ... yes, the BMW K1200LT ... hmmmm ... :D

ENOUGH !!!! ... let us know how it goes ... do what what *you* need ... :)

[Burger]

OK, I have some more questions about US Wings... Is there a similar situation with the headlamps like with the ST? The US ones being fitted with only 40w bulbs or something? Or are they fitted with H4's or whatever from the out? Also, do any of you wing riders know of any other obvious differences between US and European models?

Reason for asking is that I've found a UK company that imports them direct from the US and passes the savings on... or at least quite a lot of the savings. Their price for a brand new US 06 model, with ABS is GBP13,495 which is a saving of nearly GBP4000 over the Honda list price. That's like over $7000 so it's not to be sniffed at.

Hm, do I sound like I'm going to buy one? :D

OK, I know I haven't ridden one yet, but I'm just planning ahead lol.

Thanks,

[decompressing]

Dave,

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Burger]

Dave,

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I did ask for UKers to give reasons lol... So, if you're still breathing... why not?
:D

[Mellow]

OK, I have some more questions about US Wings... Is there a similar situation with the headlamps like with the ST? The US ones being fitted with only 40w bulbs or something? Or are they fitted with H4's or whatever from the out? Also, do any of you wing riders know of any other obvious differences between US and European models?

Reason for asking is that I've found a UK company that imports them direct from the US and passes the savings on... or at least quite a lot of the savings. Their price for a brand new US 06 model, with ABS is GBP13,495 which is a saving of nearly GBP4000 over the Honda list price. That's like over $7000 so it's not to be sniffed at.

Hm, do I sound like I'm going to buy one? :D

OK, I know I haven't ridden one yet, but I'm just planning ahead lol.

Thanks,

I don't remember what the stock bulbs are... I think they are standard h4 45w bulbs..

I thought I heard the top lights on the euro wings are not operational? The us wings have the trunk lights active as running/brake lights. I thought I remember that the euro wings trunk lights were dead, or just reflectors.

[motomac]

Stock bulbs are H-7's 55 watts for both he high and low beams.

[Mellow]

Stock bulbs are H-7's 55 watts for both he high and low beams.

Thanks Mac, guess my memory is going.

[NewRider]

Hi Dave, if your after an 'extended' test ride on a wing, why not try Thunder Road in Bridgend, S. Wales (yup, i know your in Swindonshire:) ) They are a massive Honda-Suzuki dealership and have allowed me to ride many of their bikes on day long test runs. All you'd have to do is ring and book. They aren't far from the M4 so you have a choice of valley roads (A & B twisties) D/C's & M/ways for straight out rides.
From your way, the ride into Wales would take you about an hour with free bridge entry.
Just a suggestion..
Cheers
Tim


Website
http://www.thunderroad.co.uk/default.aspx

[Burger]

Thanks for the suggestion Tim, they have a couple of interesting second hand ones I see from their web site. I'll see how the short test ride goes this weekend... hopefully I'll hate it, or at least won't love it :D If I do, then I may very well be in touch with them.

Thank you.

[Horst]

Dave, you are *so* hopeless ! ... :D

Like walking right into the trap ... here, take me, take me please !

Good grief .... Mellow, better get the GPS software ready for him, with all the DQ's clearly labelled, 'cause this guy is GONE :)

:D

[Burger]

Oh dear, now I have a real dilema... I've test ridden the Goldwing although I would have liked more than 30 minutes. There is no doubt that it is an incredible motorcycle in its own right with some truly unbelievable characteristics, but it hasn't left me with a wow, I just gotta have one feeling. Nope, instead it has left me in an I haven't got a clue what I want to do situation. Let me explain...

I own a motorcycle purely for fun. I don't have to commute anywhere and so for me a motorcycle is for going for rides with my wife, visiting places and friends and for the feeling of freedom it gives me. I am most definitely not a high speed peg scratcher type motorcyclist and I don't feel any need whatsoever to push my ST to it's limits (I did all that 20 years ago). I am happy to cruise around the back roads of the UK at the legal speed limits and don't have any desire at all to see the needle hit 100mph. When I come to a bend, of which we have many, I am more interested in negotiating the bend smoothly and safely than I am in how fast I can take it and what incredible angle I can get the bike to. Don't get me wrong, I love the feeling of successfully negotiating a bend smoothly and quickly, I just don't need to be on the edge all the time. Having said that, I do like to make progress and so will overtake when the opportunity arrises.

OK, so having explained that, here's what I don't like about my ST... and please remember, this is my personal experience, I'm not knocking it as a bike and I am, as I hope everyone knows, a big fan of it...

I always end up with a pain in my shoulder blades after about 30 mins in the saddle. I'm sure this is a problem with me and not the bike, but it makes me miserable and takes my concentration off the ride. It nearly always ensures that by the time I get home, I can't wait to get off it, and I don't feel good or as though I just enjoyed myself and must do it again soon. I almost always have a pain in my butt too... not bad, and the Sargent seat is a million miles ahead of the stock seat, but even so, it's not completely comfortable after about 100 miles. While the ST handles tremendously and always holds it's line, it feels jittery and at times unpredicatable. I feel almost every single imperfection in the road surface through the bars and seat. While I don't doubt it's capabilities, and trust it implicitely, it doesn't inspire confidence in me to push it harder. After a while, I find it tiring which adds to the lack of enjoyment mentioned above. I am fairly sure to the best of my ability that there is nothing wrong with the bike or the set up, but of course that can't be ruled out. Perhaps I am just over sensitive to it.

Finally, and this just adds to the jittery feeling mentioned, I simply don't feel safe on it at high speed. The feeling from the road, coupled with getting buffetted around makes me feel as though something could go pear shaped very quickly. Its susceptibility to cross winds only serves to accentuate this feeling. I guess I feel as though it is unpredictable.

Please don't get me wrong on any of this, I'm not trying to describe something that is terrible. I am relaxed on the bike, sit correctly, don't grip the bars tight etc etc. I have ridden over 100mph on a perfectly calm day and it felt absolutely solid... it's just such perfect days don't come around that often. What I'm really trying to describe here are the factors, that taken together but probably happening at different times over a ride, build to a lack of enjoyment and why I would even consider replacing it in the first place.

What do I like about the ST?

It looks fantastic to my eyes and the engine is a real power horse. It holds its line perfectly and has never let me down even when the rear wheel has stepped out of line a couple of times on loose gravel or something. In torrential rain, it has behaved impeccably and given me no cause for concern other than those factors mentioned above. For me though one of the biggest factors I must consider is the people that I've met since buying this bike and finding this site. I don't mean this to sound slushy, but I feel I have made some real friends since joining this site and I don't want to loose them. I'm not sure I would if I changed bikes, but it is an important factor to me.

OK, so what about the Goldwing?

The second I sat on it I was amazed how easily it came up off it's side stand. Like it weighs alomst nothing. The ST's not bad, but the Goldwing was just too easy. Standing looking at it, I think the Goldwing is also a fantastic looking bike, but from the riders seat it felt like something was missing. With the very low and narrow petrol tank (OK, it's not the tank, but the bit between your knees) I felt like there was a mass of bike in front of me, a mass behind, but not a lot in the middle lol... I guess I felt like I was sitting on a large scooter. That to me has proved to be biggest concern of all. On the road, I couldn't believe it... it was planted and absolutely sure footed but so easy to move around. The engine seems to have masses of pull (torque) and of course it has, but it made riding it so effortless and there was none of the throttle on/off twitchiness we get used to on the ST. We went on a varied route of some dual carriageway, lanes, A roads, B roads etc. and the way this thing can be lent was just incredible. It felt like it was on rails and was so sure footed when lent over that corners were almost a none event. Absolutely and obviously I couldn't fault it's comfort except that I felt more buffeting to my helmet than I do on the ST. I guess the bottom line is this... it rode beautifully and smoothly, it was absolutely planted to the road and so easy to ride and it caused me no pain whatsoever but apart from the lack of pain, that could also be its downside... as it took no effort to ride it, it was almost as though I was just along for the ride and it became uneventful. That I think is why I didn't get a wow factor from it... I enjoyed it, I think it is incredible for what it is, but it didn't leave me feeling it is perfect.

This is now my dilema... I'm not even sure the perfect bike exists for me. Most of my riding is as I described above... short (100 miles or less) distance and local. However, I also fancy doing some extended, long distance touring around Europe.

So, there you have it... I simply don't know what to do now lol :D

Regards,

[Pred8tor]

I guess the bottom line is this... it rode beautifully and smoothly, it was absolutely planted to the road and so easy to ride and it caused me no pain whatsoever but apart from the lack of pain, that could also be its downside... as it took no effort to ride it, it was almost as though I was just along for the ride and it became uneventful. That I think is why I didn't get a wow factor from it... I enjoyed it, I think it is incredible for what it is, but it didn't leave me feeling it is perfect.


Hmmm... if it handles your commands with very little effort - I don't see the downside to that?? Who wants to have to force the bike?? I like to think of certain aspects of riding bikes as being much easier than cars. It feels so effortless to accelerate, change lanes, etc. If you've got a bike that does exactly what you want, with less effort, I don't see the downside there.

Certain aspects of the wing bother me - like shorter fuel range than the ST, not as much storage in the saddlebags. No electric windshield. I keep reminding myself of these hoping I won't fall over to the darkside myself! ;)

[Ken]

If it doesn't make your pulse race, it's probably wise to keep looking, test driving and enjoying the ST in the meantime. A shame you can't solve the shoulder problem though. That would certainly motivate most people to move on...

Good luck with whatever you do Dave!

[sherob]

ROFLMAO!!! Torn between two lovers... LOL!!! Why don't you wait and see if there is any truth to the rumor of an ST upgrade in September :eek: You guys overseas might even get a bike we don't here :(

[Mellow]

Yeah.. it's comfortable...

I don't miss the electric shield, it's pretty much the perfect height once it's set.

Looks like you've got many more bikes to try out and report back...

[Burger]

Looks like you've got many more bikes to try out and report back...

I'm not sure about that because to be honest the looks of the thing are important to me... Perhaps that's stupid, but there it is, and I can't think of any other bike that I like the looks of. ST's or Goldwings are the only ones of the current crop of bikes, at least the ones I'd want to ride. Other bikes look great, but they're not for me. I don't like the looks of the FJR with its after thought saddle bags on and for the same reason I don't like the BMW GT. I can't imagine what their designers were thinking... Hm, let's make this really square, sharp-lined fairing and then let's stick these rounded, bulging, enormous, out of proportion saddle bags on it. Madness lol.

Regards,

[Mellow]

There's one over at ridersrally.com

http://www.ridersrally.com/gallery/data/560/3659TitaniumGW-thumb.gif

[Keith_UK]

I’m at a loss to know what to suggest to you Dave. It must be a ball-bracingly frustrating situation to be in.

I always end up with a pain in my shoulder blades after about 30 mins in the saddle.
Have you got bar risers fitted? - Raising the bars 1" taller, 2" rearward, and improving the angles, might just be the ticket to solving this problem. It did for me.

I almost always have a pain in my butt too... not bad, and the Sargent seat is a million miles ahead of the stock seat, but even so, it's not completely comfortable after about 100 miles.
Getting the right sort of saddle is a biddofa lottery IMHO. I bought an aftermarket saddle about a year ago from a UK Midlands-based dealer. The improvement is no more than around 10%, and therefore I'm not getting much ‘bang’ for my ‘bucks’ -or- indeed ‘value-for-money’ in UK speak :D. I’m convinced that I’ll eventually need to upgrade further to either a (1) custom-built Russell Day-Long (http://www.day-long.com/); or (2) maybe a Bagster with extra gel pads – see this thread (http://www.st-owners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3951) for more details.

I simply don't feel safe on it at high speed. The feeling from the road, coupled with getting buffeted around makes me feel as though something could go pear shaped very quickly.
High-speed buffeting, and the associated windblast noise, was the ST13-Pan’s BIGGEST turn-off for me right from the start of ownership back in Jan ‘05. Very soon (early spring last year) I switched to one of Keith Munro’s Flip-Top screens; the 1” taller, 2” wider version. Since then there has been no buffeting, and noise has been reduced by at least 50%, even at 90+ mph with the shield in the lowest position. This modest 75 quid aftermarket purchase has transformed my riding pleasure. Highly recommended!

and there was none of the throttle on/off twitchiness we get used to on the ST.
I’ve beaten this problem by mastering my throttle-clutch technique, as I’m sure you must have by now. Nowadays I’m now always in complete control, in any situation, at any speed. But if it ever had become a perpetuating problem, then I would have to consider fitting a fuel regulator. Lots of guys on this forum swear by this inexpensive devise to get shot of the universally accepted throttle ‘snatch’.


This is now my dilema... I'm not even sure the perfect bike exists for me.
We could go on and debate all day … again! … about alternative machines, e.g: FJR; R12RT - GT - LT; etceteras, etceteras. But this would get us nowhere … again! Your gonna have to spend a lot of time testing alternative rides – now that would be a real drag, wouldn’t it? I mean a real chore [not :D] – and for longer than 30 mins per session! – to find the bike that ‘fits’ you best. But even this might prove to be a biddofa lottery. IMHO you’ve got to own a bike for weeks/months to truly discover all of its characteristics, both good and bad.

OK, so what about the Goldwing?

FYI, I put a lot of miles – mainly around the European Mainland – on my old Honda Goldwing (a GL1500), which I owned for 13 years until I acquired the Pan. The trade ‘up’ [or maybe ‘down’] was the best move I ever made. The reasons why I have come to this conclusion would be far too lengthy to enter into and describe here. But we can always chat about my thoughts on this issue another time.

If I were you, then I might consider some further remedies to your Pan in order to solve the problems that are clearly experiencing and disturbing you … at least until this Autumn, at which time Honda might then re-launch – allegedly! – the new improved ST13-Pan. This [alleged] new model just might have Burger’s name written all over it! and at a stroke of a pen on your cheque book, could painlessly [relatively speaking] solve all of your problems overnight. But there again you might not – as it’ll be ‘lottery time’, all over again!

Good luck with your endeavours.

keef

[nisbeam]

Hi Dave. As the others said an interesting dilemma. But I'm sure you would still be welcome on this site so I wouldn't worry about that. I think you should wait until later this year as I expect the New Pan will be amazing. I have read that it will be bristling with technology (not sure if that is good or bad), but it should be interesting. Also there will be the Kawasaki GTR14 - if they get that one right I would definitely expect it to be the one to beat for handling and performance, so should have plenty of safety margin left in reserve. :03biker:

[naturally wired]

To Burger

:) I was going to start a thread on this but I think it may help you:)


This past march I picked up a 05 ZZR1200 used. The reason for the purchase is that I love riding with my brother(he owns a 05 repsol) and I really enjoy owning collections of things(4 bikes is the goal). I thought the new bike would be better in the twisty stuff and when we went to bike night I would have a pling machine to park next to his. Well I was half right I got the pling machine but I ended up becoming a better rider on the ST ? Riding the ZZR has helped me build up my upper body mussels that are used even when on the ST. The second thing that happened is I learned not to fight the ST's weight as much . To explain this is the hard part but hear we go. I went for my first long ride to me to Clearfield PA this year and I took the new to me ZZR because some of the people there knew the pre owner and the bike. The ride was about 360 miles or so round trip. Lots of 30 mph cross winds , lots of truck and sport uts. The thing I had going for me was a guy from another helped me understand how to ride long distance on this machine. Losening my grip up, bending at the elbow a bit and becoming a pasenger on a ride rather then feeling I had to control every little movement. Before the ride I thought that I would be sore for days after? Boy was I wrong , other then my neck getting bobbed around from the crosswind "Nothing". I could not believe that my 44 year old out of shape 250 lb body wasn't laying in a hospital bed from all the back pain!!!! Everytime before when I rode the ST over 200 miles in one day my back , arms and hands wouldn't be happy for days after... Anyway the things I learned on the ZZR I started using on the ST! WOW the st was now lighter! High speed woble almost gone! and all at once the twisties got alot better(and faster)!!!!!!!!



I am not saying this will work for you for sure but a used Black Bird or ZZR as a second bike to ride just may be the answer your looking for!


:) Hope this may help you .....Ken :)

[Keith_UK]

Also there will be the Kawasaki GTR14 - if they get that one right ...
I've got a mate who owns one of these ... and what a great noise it makes?! - an oh-so sexy real growlin' / gruntin' bark ...
... that bites too :-D

[decompressing]

...re the discomfort...you could eat many, many more burgers, thus increasing the size of your bum, which in turn would make it more comfortable!!

ok, ok...I hear you...you don't like that idea....er...whatabout...you keep the ST for when you're feeling frisky and get the GW AS WELL for the longer rides!!! What do you mean, the money....?! For goodness sake!!

Actually, what you could do which might make you appreciate the ST more is to go and testride something really uncomfortable (you know, bum in the air type of machine).....I promise you, when you then go and get back on your ST, it'll be like getting back onto a sofa!!

Sorry, run out of other ideas...you knew you could rely on me for some juvenile solutions!! :D (and I've pm'd you too)

Take care,

Marc

[Burger]

Thank you for all the thoughts and comments. I wasn't really worried about being welcome here, afterall our illustrious leader is a winger so I can't see that being a problem. No, I was more concerned about the wonderful people I've really met from here and whether or not they'd want to be seen with me on a wing lol.

I appreciate all the comments and the suggestions and I agree some of them are certainly worthy of consideration. Especially the suggestion to perhaps wait and see what Honda comes up with, if anything, for a revised ST. Also, I would agree that anything Kawasaki come up with based on the ZZR1400 has got to be good although if the artists impressions are accurate, it will be another bike with afterthought panniers. No one in my opinion integrates the luggage as well as Honda do on the ST and Goldwing.

I don't think the problem with my shoulders and back is lack of upper body strength... ok, I'm not the strongest guy on the block but I really think it is something medically wrong with me that hopefully can be addressed. No other activity gives me problems or creates this pain.

I do have riser blocks Keith and I've experimented with no risers, blocks and a plate to see if anything solves this problem. The blocks seem to be the most comfortable for me, but don't eliminate the pain. The only thing I haven't tried that you mentioned is a replacement screen and while this might eliminate the buffeting, I'm not sure I can regain any love for this bike or this style of bike.

I went for another trip on the ST this afternoon and deliberately went on different roads. This was really just to try and prove to myself that I'm not happy. I accept I might have entered this ride with the wrong frame of mind, but once again I got home feeling thoroughly exhausted and fed up. Even though I know for a fact I am relaxed on the bike and sitting correctly with a loose grip on the bars, I still feel like I am constantly either fighting it or absorbing shocks. I had a pain between my shoulder blades and my bum hurt. I had a slightly scary moment on one bend with some melted tarmac and the feeling of every single imperfection in the road was just winding me up lol. I did a 12 mile stretch on the M4 and even without the buffeting caused by the trucks, I still didn't feel secure at anything over 80mph. In fact this was the first time in my life I was relieved to come across road works with a 50 speed limit.

I know I'm making my ST sound terrible and I really don't mean to do that... it's just my personal experience of it. I think Meike summed it up best when she said... you've fallen out of love with it.

I still don't know if a Goldwing is the answer, but I couldn't fault the test ride yesterday and so it may well be the bike for me. I am making some enquiries and so don't be surprised if you see me on one in the future :D

I am making enquiries about getting a parallel import so that I can have the latest model, not last years model which is the current one in the UK. If the places I've enquired to can do a deal I like... it might even happen soon. If not, then I will either wait and see what appears in September or look at buying a 1 or 2 year old Goldwing.

Thanks again,

[tricky_micky]

Dave.

It sounds to me as though you have made your mind up, you just need pushing a little. What you must think is to go with your heart because whatever you do or think, if you do not get a GW, you will always wonder what if!

We only pass this way once, and after you have added all of the pro's and con's of the exchange, I say go for it, go get the wing. You have already told us about the comforts, well I think we all know about that, but the main one is that you felt no pain. The pain may come later as you bury the miles on a Wing, but at least it has staved the pain off longer so that you can enjoy your motorcycling more.

I almost bought a wing early last year but after deep thoughts, the wing will not do the job I do at the moment, and due to my work, I do not think I would get the pleasure miles out of it. This is why I stayed with the ST and upgraded from the 1100 to the 1300, well, the 1300 did come at a give away price!

So my friend, you must go with your heart, your mind is already there with the GW so go and do it, if you are happy then we as your friends are happy.

TTFN

[Magna]

Burger,
I understand your problem. I looked long and hard at a Goldwing, when I bought my new '05 ST1300ABS last fall.
Since my wife rides with me about 100% of the time, I was looking for comfort, and I liked the looks of a Goldwing, just not as much as the ST.
The dealer had lots of Goldwings on the floor, when I went to pick up my ST, and I asked my wife if she would like to change her mind and get a Goldwing.
She also liked the looks of the ST better, and said it looked plenty comfortable to her.

We now have 4,600 miles on it, and we both think we made the right decision.
We also had one 2,500 mile trip, including one 550 mile day.

We do have Airhawk seats, along with a custom sheepskin cover, and have the seat in the middle position in front, and the lowest in back.

We don't have risers, never felt we needed them. The best thing we've found to stop shoulder and back pain, was $25 adjustable elastic back braces, they really help you to maintain the correct posture, and you don't get tired as soon.

We carried enough luggage on the trip for 7 days, and we don't even have a tank bag. (looks much better without one, and the wife can see the GPS mounted between the bars better.)

Sounds like we ride about like you do, I've been riding for over 45 years, and am past the point of thinking I have to be faster than anyone to have a good time.

I think you have to ride what you personally like, no matter what it is, and if you don't like the looks of it, or the feel of it, you'll never really like it, and always wish you had something else.

As far as the wind goes, we had some extra strong wind from storms as we crossed Kansas on our last trip, and we noticed a few bikes were pulling off to wait it out. We just kept going, it's not really as bad as it seems once you get used to being blowed around a little. Riding double may have helped out on the weight, not sure. I weigh about 195, and wife about 135, plus we were packed to the limit. I feel like when there's a strong crosswind, I kind of let it have it's head, but for the blasts that come from an 18 wheeler, i tighten up the grip some.

Hope you make the right decision for you, wish we could help more, but with all the great members on this board, you've got a great source for info (and sympathy, when needed).
Magna


Thank you for all the thoughts and comments. I wasn't really worried about being welcome here, afterall our illustrious leader is a winger so I can't see that being a problem. No, I was more concerned about the wonderful people I've really met from here and whether or not they'd want to be seen with me on a wing lol.

I appreciate all the comments and the suggestions and I agree some of them are certainly worthy of consideration. Especially the suggestion to perhaps wait and see what Honda comes up with, if anything, for a revised ST. Also, I would agree that anything Kawasaki come up with based on the ZZR1400 has got to be good although if the artists impressions are accurate, it will be another bike with afterthought panniers. No one in my opinion integrates the luggage as well as Honda do on the ST and Goldwing.

I don't think the problem with my shoulders and back is lack of upper body strength... ok, I'm not the strongest guy on the block but I really think it is something medically wrong with me that hopefully can be addressed. No other activity gives me problems or creates this pain.

I do have riser blocks Keith and I've experimented with no risers, blocks and a plate to see if anything solves this problem. The blocks seem to be the most comfortable for me, but don't eliminate the pain. The only thing I haven't tried that you mentioned is a replacement screen and while this might eliminate the buffeting, I'm not sure I can regain any love for this bike or this style of bike.

I went for another trip on the ST this afternoon and deliberately went on different roads. This was really just to try and prove to myself that I'm not happy. I accept I might have entered this ride with the wrong frame of mind, but once again I got home feeling thoroughly exhausted and fed up. Even though I know for a fact I am relaxed on the bike and sitting correctly with a loose grip on the bars, I still feel like I am constantly either fighting it or absorbing shocks. I had a pain between my shoulder blades and my bum hurt. I had a slightly scary moment on one bend with some melted tarmac and the feeling of every single imperfection in the road was just winding me up lol. I did a 12 mile stretch on the M4 and even without the buffeting caused by the trucks, I still didn't feel secure at anything over 80mph. In fact this was the first time in my life I was relieved to come across road works with a 50 speed limit.

I know I'm making my ST sound terrible and I really don't mean to do that... it's just my personal experience of it. I think Meike summed it up best when she said... you've fallen out of love with it.

I still don't know if a Goldwing is the answer, but I couldn't fault the test ride yesterday and so it may well be the bike for me. I am making some enquiries and so don't be surprised if you see me on one in the future :D

I am making enquiries about getting a parallel import so that I can have the latest model, not last years model which is the current one in the UK. If the places I've enquired to can do a deal I like... it might even happen soon. If not, then I will either wait and see what appears in September or look at buying a 1 or 2 year old Goldwing.

Thanks again,

[ST1300 Alicia]

How does the turning circle of a goldwing compare to the ST? I know they have electric reverse, and I'm not bothered about slow turns so much... more, will I be able to turn it round in my garage?

Thanks,

Did he just ask if he could make a U-Turn with a WING inside of his garage? They must have huge garages in the UK. I have a two car garage here in the US and with all of the Sh!t I keep in my garage it's not a question of can I make a U-Turn, it's can I get the door closed. The WING is a beautiful bike and it was at the top of my list, however I'm scared of the weight. So I bought an ST1300 instead and have dropped it twice, BUT I can pick it up all by myself. Good luck on a difficult choice.

[tricky_micky]

That reverse gear is awsum in helping to move the wing about.

I saw a great example whilst in Luxembourg.

The guy from the hotel told us to park the bikes in his driveway under the hotel, it was a steep decline to the bottom, and all those with bikes had to shove and shift their bikes at the bottom so to get them pointing back out so they could just start them up and ride out the next morning.

The Wingers just rode into the parking lot. Next morning they just started the bike and shoved it into reverse and out it came step by step. I was so impressed.

TTFN

[Mellow]

Did he just ask if he could make a U-Turn with a WING inside of his garage? They must have huge garages in the UK. I have a two car garage here in the US and with all of the Sh!t I keep in my garage it's not a question of can I make a U-Turn, it's can I get the door closed. The WING is a beautiful bike and it was at the top of my list, however I'm scared of the weight. So I bought an ST1300 instead and have dropped it twice, BUT I can pick it up all by myself. Good luck on a difficult choice.

Iterestingly enough, the ST always felt heavier to me than the Wing. Now, that's at slow speeds.. at highway speed the Wing feels light but the ST feels much lighter and flickable.

As stated above, the low center of gravity of the Wing makes it easy to get off the sidestand as well as if it falls over.

And, I keep forgetting about reverse... I love that.

[Burger]

Did he just ask if he could make a U-Turn with a WING inside of his garage? They must have huge garages in the UK. I have a two car garage here in the US and with all of the Sh!t I keep in my garage it's not a question of can I make a U-Turn, it's can I get the door closed. The WING is a beautiful bike and it was at the top of my list, however I'm scared of the weight. So I bought an ST1300 instead and have dropped it twice, BUT I can pick it up all by myself. Good luck on a difficult choice.

LOL... I wish !!!!

No, I asked if I would be able to get the wing round in a 7 or 8 point turn like I can my ST. Actually, if I tidied the garage and instead of having stuff on 3 walls, limitted it to one wall, I might be able to make a 3 or 4 point turn.

I have to agree with what Joe said... The wing *feels* like it weighs nothing in comparison to the ST.

I got to play with the reverse on my test ride yesterday at the end when the Honda guy asked me to back it into a space in a line of bikes... this was up hill too. Don't know if you realised Micky (I didn't), but the reverse is actually electric - the bike has to be in neutral to select it. I'm not sure if the engine has to be running?

I think, depending on the finances, that I have made my mind up but there is still a little part of me that's undecided and might wait a while to see what else comes out. OK, might wait to see the next ST if there really is one. Trouble with that is that I'm not good at waiting when I've made my mind up on something. The other problem is that mainly because of the finances, whatever I choose next has to be good for quite a few years. I can't afford to make a mistake.

Regards,

[tricky_micky]

From those that know!

The Wing has to have the engine running to select reverse gear, and it reverses on the strarter motor, that is the design feature so I am told.

Dave

If it were me and I did not have the company in mind and the work that I do, I would probably have a Wing in the garage rather than than the ST, it was only the work that I do that stopped me from buying a Wing.

[Keith_UK]

Dave - Go get the Wing ...

... but get it the right way? By this I mean firstly go to the US and buy your new shiny machine from a dealer located in some special place (say in Utah, Montana, CA).

You'll want the ABS, Premium Audio, Comfort Package model (not c/w the overly expensive GPS Navigation System). Cost = circa USD $21,000. With the favourable exchange rate right now that converts into approx GBP £11,500, which is not a bad comparo price to the £17K+ that you would have to cough-up on this side of the pond. That's a saving of at least £5,000!

Tour the mountains and canyons with Meike. Then after a holiday of a lifetime, you ship the beast back to Southampton, at a cost of c. £550 - £600. Okay, there'll be a bidda tax + extras to pay, but this surely won't amount to much more than £2K - £2½K?

So, you get (a) the latest US spec bike that you want; and (b) a trip to remember for the rest of your one-and-only.

And there might even be a small element of fiscal profit thrown into the whole bargain.

Sounds like a plan.

keith

PS - If you decide to pack-up biking altogether, then I bagsie first refusal on your bullet cam & mount ... :eek: :D ;) !!!!

[MidLife]

........I have made my mind up.......




.................................................. .......and what color, sorry, colour, have you picked?

[Burger]

Nice idea Keith, but I don't think it's going to happen :) I have found two dealers in this country that import direct from the US and sell them for a lot less than the price of buying an old spec, current UK model.

Why don't I want the built in sat nav? Is there something you know about it that I don't? The fact is that if I go with either of these dealers then I will very much have to buy what I can... and it seems that will be the fully spec'd model. They do obviously 'convert' the sat nav for the UK/Europe. I like the idea of the built in sat nav, but if you know it's rubbish, please tell me. Unless I'm reading the US Honda site wrong, you can't have ABS without sat nav.

Top runner at the moment has a gold one... not my first choice of colour but then as explained, I might not get a lot of choice. My favourite colours out of the latest model are the dark red and titanium.

Regards,

[Keith_UK]

Dave - I got my prices from this web page (http://www.hondanews.com/catID7009?mid=2005090773877&mime=asc). At first view I saw a differential of $2,000 between:-

(1) a GW c/w Premium Audio & Comfort Package; and
(2) a GW c/w Premium Audio, Comfort Package & Navigation System

It occurred to me that the $2K extra was just too much to pay for a simple satnav set-up. But looking again, this applies to non ABS models. I can understand why you would want ABS, especially on our busy brit road network.

In other words, you're dead right. If you want the ABS model, then you gotta buy the fully spec'd package inc. GPS.

Now just get yer bleedin' cheque book out - and pull the trigger! :mrgreen:

[motomac]

Burger, I ask again what Colour are you going to get?????

[Burger]

Burger, I ask again what Colour are you going to get?????

Err... OK... Gold.

Now what happens? :D

Regards,

[motomac]

You will enjoy it when you take that first long ride with Farkle. Or even the first short ride without Farkle. You will regret getting off the ST, but not much. The GL is a great motorcycle and is ver capable of keeping in touch with the ST's anywhere in any terrain. Right Mellow???

[Burger]

OK... it's got a deposit on it!!!!

I see it in the flesh later this week hopefully when I'll take some better pics :D

Gulp... what have I done?

[sherob]

IAM now stands for I AM MAD! :D

[Mellow]

Say Hello to my little fren...

[naturally wired]

Congrats on the new ride:yes: ...........................now weres that number for my stock broker .......I'm thinking at least 150 shares of DQ stock!

[sherob]

No DQ's in Europe! :eek:

[naturally wired]

oooooop's.......I guess he'll have to make do with imported Dilly's and Buster's :p:

[Peter]

A Gold Wing

You must be mad

you will hate it

You could have sold me the bloody seat saved me some hassle.....:box1:

Peter

Only joking really

[Burger]

Well, truth be known Peter I didn't know my concerns would lead to this when we last met. However, there will be a few parts... Sargent seat, riser blocks, possibly the intercom etc etc coming up for sale when the deed is done. I'll put things in the classifieds as soon as appropriate.

Regards,

[Keith_UK]

Hey Dave - I thought that we might just be able to cut a deal with your saddle(s); but from memory, yours has livery-matching blue piping ... right? which is not ideal for my [much faster] digital silver STeed.

Your Recent Executive Judgment: All-in-all, you've probably made the right decision. Think-on, though, before you join the GWOCGB (http://www.gwocgb.co.uk/) (GoldWing Owners Club of Great Britain). They're a great bunch of guys who organise and hold well-supported social event around the UK - and Europe - most weekends, especially during the summer months. Plus a national mega-meet [called a 'Treffen'] that every major European country hosts in due turn.

Boyo-boyo-boy ... can those guys knock back the alcohol? ... you better believe it! :beer8:

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

[Burger]

Keith,

Well as not a big drinker I'd better not join up then :D Hey, I'm staying as a member of ST-Owners UK... even if just an honourary member :D

Black piping with Black Carbon FX fabric... I'll put you on the top of the list if you think black piping would enhance your slow silver paintwork :D

Regards,

[NewRider]

Good luck with your new choice of ride Dave, hope it suits your needs.
Respect.
Tim

[Burger]

I said in my report on testing the Goldwing that when I sat on it it felt like there was a lot of bike in front, a lot behind and not a lot in the middle...

I found the attached picture on the web... now I know why it felt like that.

You have to admit, it does look kinda weird lol.

Anyone got an aerial shot of an ST? :D

[Peter]

I said in my report on testing the Goldwing that when I sat on it it felt like there was a lot of bike in front, a lot behind and not a lot in the middle...

I found the attached picture on the web... now I know why it felt like that.

You have to admit, it does look kinda weird lol.

Anyone got an aerial shot of an ST? :D


That sure has a very skinny "Waist"

Peter

[Scotwing]

Burger. As an ex goldwings owner of 16 years (GL1200; GL1500) my advice to you is to go for it, as the goldwing is the supreme touring machine out there...unsurpassed in my opinion.
I had a similiar dilemma as you when it came to changing over to the ST1300. I must admit I still miss my old 1989 GL1500 as it was supremely comfortable, and with a few mods to the suspension and type of tyres was extremely good when riding twisty roads. From what I hear the GL1800 is very sporty and feels light compared to the 1500. I did not like the new wing cosmetically and that alone is the reason why I did not upgrade, instead opting for the new kid on the "sports touring" block, which did appeal to me cosmetically.
I have only owned the ST1300 for about ten weeks and put over 1k miles on in that time, and I am fairly satisfied with it so far. In August I will be going on a 3k mile european tour, so hopefully I will have managed to form my real opinions on this bike...good or bad. I have changed the seat for a "Top saddlery" one and changed the original tyres to z6 road techs in preparation for this trip.
I know that some day I will return to Goldwings whenever the looks of the bike appeal to me again. The goldwing engine is a gem and so quiet compared to the ST. The low down torque is better and can be utilised at lower RPM,s than the ST. As above, comfort is unsurpassed and your pillion passengers wont be complaining either....if they manage to stay awake.
The biggest problem you will encounter is the amount of people admiring your bike and asking all the usual questions about "how fast" how much it costs etc...it can get a bit repetative. The Goldwing owners club is well organised with plenty of meetings, tours etc, if that is your thing. There is an excellent web site run by Steve Saunders of the Irish Gold wing owners club, which is very much on a par with this one. Bottom line Burger is....Try the new wing for a few years....and you will not go back to anything else. If my present bike doesn,t meet expectations after the European tour I may be joining you, although I,m pretty sure it will exceed all expectations.
Good luck with whatever you decide.
Joe

[Pred8tor]

I said in my report on testing the Goldwing that when I sat on it it felt like there was a lot of bike in front, a lot behind and not a lot in the middle...


I was thinking about this yesterday evening while riding my ST, so I stood up in the seat and looked down. The ST is also somewhat narrow in the waist - that's to keep you from having to spread your legs too wide. But the look isn't as "extreme" as the Goldwing, since the Wing's fairing is wider in front. I'm not sure if it's wider behind - maybe.

Actually, my ST almost looks unbalanced from certain vantage points, due mainly to the Hondaline top box helping to make the backend look so big.

[Burger]

The wing is less than 1/2 inch wider at the widest point which I think must be the mirrors than the ST. It's much narrower at the rear end saddlebags. The ST's tank definitely forces you to spread your legs more than the Wing does. Having said that I found the wing a more natural position.

Regards,

[Burger]

Well, finally got to go and see it today and sign on the dotted line... gulp. I've stuck some pics in my gallery but here it is. Dealer is delivering it on Monday but I'm taking care of it's first registration which is a little complicated as it's a US model import - so it's going to take a few days. Saved a bit of cash that way though and at least I'll have my hands on it :D

[Trekker]

Looks like your very happy. Congrats!

I test rode a GL1800 last summer and it was amazing. Smooth, balanced, very comfortable, and my wife loved the pillion seat. When she sat on it... her response was... Oooohhh. I see myself on a Wing someday. It's just the absolute most comfortable touring ride available. And it's a Honda!

[tricky_micky]

Hey Dave.

Congratulations dude, I thought it was deep in the back of your mind from your posts, you only needed the seal of approval LOL and you got that from your friends on the board.

Mind you, looking carefully at the last picture, it looks as though there is someone sitting on the bike about to 'Nick' it and smiling whilst they are doing it :D

Never mind the bank balance, your smile speaks a thousand words, best of luck with the new ride.

TTFN

[Pred8tor]

Congratulations on the new ride - I'm sure you'll love it. Looks very comfortable!

[motomac]

Congratulations Burger!!! You and Farkle will have many happy moments on that Gold Beauty. Will I see you at Wing Ding in Billings MT next July???

[Burger]

You never know :D Farkle and I keep talking about popping over the the US, hiring a Goldwing and touring round a bit. Could happen real soon ;)

Regards,

[Burger]

Mind you, looking carefully at the last picture, it looks as though there is someone sitting on the bike about to 'Nick' it and smiling whilst they are doing it :D

What's more, the daft twit hasn't closed the saddle bag either. Can you believe it... right in front of your eyes too :D

Regards,

[Mellow]

Nice Bike!
But,..... I think I'm biased...

[decompressing]

Dave,

Congratulations and I hope you both enjoy it.

Marc

[Putt]

Talk about thread drift... Dave, your original question to the forum was:

"Am I mad?"....

Ummm... who would you like your sanity to be compared to??
Be careful on answering this one...... :crackup


Putt....