O2 Sensor Chip Upgrade

[jfischerjr]

:o: Hi All - does anyone have any experience with aftermarket O2 sensor mods for increased performance? thanks! Jim

[Blrfl]

I think he might be talking about the thing that pops up on fleaBay from time to time.

Haven't tried it, have no intention of trying it...

--Mark

[Lager]

Ive seen this device,, I think what it does is takes the place on the O2 sensor and produce a constant voltage.Low enough to fool the Fuel injection control unit into injecting more fuel,simular to Turbo Toms FPR mod. Unfortunatly, I believe ,useing the O2 sensor mod, the Fuel Injection ECU will see the constant voltage as a fault and trigger the FI light to come on.Im just guessing on the intelligence of the ECU here.

[Scaredy Cat]

Ive seen this device,, I think what it does is takes the place on the O2 sensor and produce a constant voltage.Low enough to fool the Fuel injection control unit into injecting more fuel,simular to Turbo Toms FPR mod. Unfortunatly, I believe ,useing the O2 sensor mod, the Fuel Injection ECU will see the constant voltage as a fault and trigger the FI light to come on.Im just guessing on the intelligence of the ECU here.

The way I understood it was that it modified the existing O2 sensor voltage, making it read slightly "leaner" than stock, so the ECU upped the fuel to compensate, making the bike run a little bit richer all the time, much the same as the FPR mod. What I don't understand is that the O2 sensor works more or less like a switch, it's not a linear "O2 transmitter", so I don't really see how the in-line voltage modulation could work.
I haven't tried it though, and I also don't intend to - unless someone else does first.
What I want is a plug-and-play Power Commander with ST map for a "proper" driveable fuel map. I would buy one of those.

[Killtimer]

:th1:

And if the latest from Europe is any indication, it's only going to get worse. The EU has taken no tampering to the next level by making the manufacturer responsible. The latest step as outlined in the current "TWO" magazine (IIRC, I don't have the issue with me) forces after market exhaust suppliers to put catalytic converters in any pipe that could be used on a bike that originally had a factory converter, in such a way that they can't be removed. After market air filters cannot change the engine characteristics. The bike makers are also expected to make their products Power Commander etc. resistant/proof. It basically means that carbs are gone for one, and any bike that can be modified from the original factory emissions specs as tested cannot be sold. It even extends to tires. Only replacement tires that have been tested and approved can be installed. Even if these regs never reach the New World we're going to have to live with the fallout. Manufacturers are not going to produce NA only products when we're such a small (non cruiser) market.

:th1: <end>

[Lager]

ScaredyCat,, your correct in the idea that the O2 sensor is a switch.. Sort Of. The St 1300 fuel injection system is just like the Honda Auto fuel injection from the years of 1990 to 1995..Compared to what your new 2006 Auto uses,, its crude and simple minded..
Basically, it works like this,,The Fuel injection control unit for the purpose of this post will now be called the ECU=Electronic control unit.The ECU has a bunch of maps factory installed for fuel delivery. I could fill two pages on here on how it all works,but Im not gonna..
The O2 sensor is a constantly varying voltage to the ECU, its job is to verify the Map sensor and the ECU's map for that load on the engine.Meaning the ECU varies rich to lean and hopefully meet the middle mark( perfect mixture)This happen many times a minute.. The O2 sensors job is to verify the ECUs command/rich-lean.
If we then add this aftermarket device that stabilizes the O2's voltage to the lean point the ECU will increase fuel injector opening time. It will about to its second drive cycle, then its gonna realize that the O2 sensor is acting stupid and turn on the FI light. The Code will be,The O2 sensor is faulty.
Paul is correct,, Its only gonna get worse, pretty soon we will have before and after Cat Converter sensors,the second one will monitor the Cats efficiency. If its isnt working or removed, will turn on the FI light. We will then progress into the Seconday O2 sensor turning into a Fuel ratio sensor and IT being the primary ECU sensing device and IT checking the primary sensor for proper operation..How many people have I lost,raise your hands? What does all this mean in the long run? You wont be able to change your muffler for a different sound because it will contain your cat converter and 2 O2 sensor bungs.. You might be able to,, but its gonna cost you.Unless the factorys design a seperate Cat converter then the muffler.Just like our cars have,,But space on a bike is limited..
Welcome to the future,, its coming and we are not going to like it..But as long as we vote for people that regulate our tail pipe emissions,This is what we wanted.

[henryw]

I may not fully understand this topic, but wouldn't it be simpler to use gasoline that contained ethanol (ten percent Ethanol seems to be a common ratio).
When burned, it would increase (compared to the plain variety) the Oxygen levels in the exhaust. This should fool the exhaust's two Oxygen sensors and the ECU into making the fuel mixture richer.
If so, this would result in better performance and should reduce engine heat.

I've always used Sunoco's Ultra 94 (with Ethanol) in my ST, and it works very well.

Thoughts???

[Lager]

Ahhhh,, Ummm,, cough,, I dont know,, I dont have acess to 10% Ethanol fuel. But Im thinking that IF it increased Fuel enrichment,then anyones Automobiles that used the same fuel would fail the Tail Pipe sniffer test for their state emmisions inspection.. Just a guess,, Paul? Any ideas?

[Scaredy Cat]

I've been doing a bit of web surfing and there's a company here in the UK that sells a "Techlusion" FI unit which plugs into the ST13's harness to richen up the mixture under certain conditions (load, rpm etc).
I've emailed them asking for details, and how easy it would be to fit (not sure if it's plug and play). It's not a full "Power Commander" type rig, and it only richens the mixture as opposed to the full nine yards of the Power Commander, but I believe the ST only needs richening up slightly under idle/cruise at under ~4000rpm conditions to get rid of the jerkiness.
I'm quite tempted - not cheap but should retain the maximum fuel efficiency under higher speed running while getting rid of the jerkiness at low load, low speed conditions. The higher load/speed adjustments appear to be only needed to compensate for freer flowing exhausts, intakes etc, which I don't have.
I don't really care at all whether it meets CARB 2008. If I did I would ride a pushbike. And for the annual test in a couple of years time, if need be, I can just wind the pots on the Techlusion down so it's having no effect.

Anyone tried one of these?

[Scaredy Cat]

Paul,
I have seen a few installs on the web that seem to have had a good effect, however I also see that you might need to disconnect the O2 sensors for it to work properly - there is one guy who says his is hooked up with the O2 sensors online.....
It also seems that I would have to live with a permanently illuminated FI fault light, which I don't fancy much.
From what I can see the unit just takes away the O2 feedback bit and runs a standard fuel "map" which you can specify, a bit like tuning carbs.

Oh well, back to the drawing board.

Just thinking aloud - what if the O2 sensors were replaced by ones that "switched" at a slightly richer mix? I dunno if this is possible, but it would then try to control at a slightly richer point. Clutching at straws.
So how does the FPR manage to do it? Surely the EFI would just reduce the fuel to get back to it's preferred lean running point?

Confused.

:shrug2:

[Killtimer]

Anyone tried one of these?

AdamK documents his efforts Here (http://koczarski.com/Motorcycles/ST1300/Techlusion/Techlusion.htm)
and explains his Power Commander episode Here (http://koczarski.com/Motorcycles/ST1300/PowerCommander/PowerCommander.htm)
HTH

[bcst1300]

Maybe you actually have enough horsepower and can go exceedinly fast already. Maybe the air is worth cleaning up more than a selfish desire to pollute the air in favour of a few more HP. If faster is really what you want then get a VFR or Hayabusa and slap some bags on them.

[ST1300 Alicia]

My understanding from reading the manufacturers information on the O2 sensor chip, was that it modified the feedback voltage to the ECU. The O2 sensor internally generates a voltage that is specific to the AIR FUEL RATIO and varies as does this ratio. The ECU will toggle the AFR to hit the middle mark ( Stoichiometric ). If you made a small change in the voltage generated by the O2 sensor, ( by inserting a resistor ), you could cause the ECU to lengthen fuel injector dwell time to richen the mixture. I think from what I read, the manufacturer is just resetting what the ECU sees as STOICHIOMETRIC. This would be the same as stepping up the fuel map a small percentage to richen the mixture. I don't know if it works as the manufacturer claims it does, as I have not tested it.

NEXT SUBJECT
What is wrong with having an EMISSIONS friendly HIGH PERFORMANCE motorcycle. My God this bike is so much faster and more reliable than my 1970 bike was. No points to clean and gap. No carburetors to SYNC. No CHOKES to pull. No CHAIN to clean and adjust. It's a whole Lot faster, gets much better fuel mileage and it does not pollute very much! The new Corvette is much more fuel and emissions efficient that the earlier Corvettes were. Its one Bad A$$ fast machine, have driven one lately?
We are in a NEW ERA, with the planet fast becoming OVER POPULATED. We must be better stewards of our resources. MOTORCYCLES DO NOT HAVE TO BE ABLE TO PULL A WHEELIE AT 80 MPH. DON'T HAVE TO HAVE A TOP SPEED IN EXCESS OF 200 MPH. DON'T HAVE TO BE SO LOUD AS TO SET OFF ALL OF THE CAR ALARMS IN THE PARKING GARAGE. Motorcycles can be fun forms of both recreation and transportation without being socially irresponsible.
So I own an UNMODIFIED, efficient low polluting motorcycle that is fun to ride. It is capable of going in excess of twice the speed limit anywhere in the US. It is capable of getting me a FELONY speeding ticket. It doesn't set off all of the car alarms in the parking garage at work. Why would people complain about government interference when we have so much technology available to enjoy. I am glad my neighbors car can't make a lot of noise and he is not polluting the air I'm trying to breathe. I fact I'm glad he can't smoke in the restaurant where I'm eating.
We will still be able to do all of our own repair work and maintenance. But you will have to know how to read a wiring schematic and use a FLUKE digital volt ohm meter. There will be much less time spent on repair work and much more time spent riding. I do all of my own maintenance and repair work and the oldest thing I own is a 2002 Camry. Yes, I can take anything apart and put it back together again and they work. Sorry about the RANT.

[Scaredy Cat]

My understanding from reading the manufacturers information on the O2 sensor chip, was that it modified the feedback voltage to the ECU. The O2 sensor internally generates a voltage that is specific to the AIR FUEL RATIO and varies as does this ratio. The ECU will toggle the AFR to hit the middle mark ( Stoichiometric ). If you made a small change in the voltage generated by the O2 sensor, ( by inserting a resistor ), you could cause the ECU to lengthen fuel injector dwell time to richen the mixture. I think from what I read, the manufacturer is just resetting what the ECU sees as STOICHIOMETRIC. This would be the same as stepping up the fuel map a small percentage to richen the mixture. I don't know if it works as the manufacturer claims it does, as I have not tested it.

NEXT SUBJECT
What is wrong with having an EMISSIONS friendly HIGH PERFORMANCE motorcycle. My God this bike is so much faster and more reliable than my 1970 bike was. No points to clean and gap. No carburetors to SYNC. No CHOKES to pull. No CHAIN to clean and adjust. It's a whole Lot faster, gets much better fuel mileage and it does not pollute very much! The new Corvette is much more fuel and emissions efficient that the earlier Corvettes were. Its one Bad A$$ fast machine, have driven one lately?
We are in a NEW ERA, with the planet fast becoming OVER POPULATED we must be better stewards of our resources. MOTORCYCLES DO NOT HAVE TO BE ABLE TO PULL A WHEELIE AT 80 MPH. DON'T HAVE TO HAVE A TOP SPEED IN EXCESS OF 200 MPH. DON'T HAVE TO BE SO LOUD AS TO SET OFF ALL OF THE CAR ALARMS IN THE PARKING GARAGE. Motorcycles can be fun forms of both recreation and transportation without being socially irresponsible.
So I own an UNMODIFIED, efficient low polluting motorcycle that is fun to ride. It is capable of going in excess of twice the speed limit anywhere in the US. It is capable of getting me a FELONY speeding ticket. It doesn't set off all of the car alarms in the parking garage at work. Why would people complain about government interference when we have so much technology available to enjoy. I am glad my neighbors car can't make a lot of noise and he is not polluting the air I'm trying to breathe. I fact I'm glad he can't smoke in the restaurant where I'm eating.
We will still be able to do all of our own repair work and maintenance. But you will have to know how to read a wiring schematic and use a FLUKE digital volt ohm meter. There will be much less time spent on repair work and much more time spent riding. I do all of my own maintenance and repair work and the oldest thing I own is a 2002 Camry. Yes, I can take anything apart and put it back together again and they work. Sorry about the RANT.

Alicia,
My point was that the sensor does not vary voltage directly with O2/Fuel ratio - it works more like a "switch" - voltage either high or low - it is not controlling at a particular voltage, but hovering around the switch point, which as you say, is stoichiometric. Engines generally like to run a bit richer than stoichiometric though.

Wow - we've got some greens on board! :)
As to your points about bikes not having to do 200mph etc, well no I suppose not, but then they don't have to be able to do 90mph either.... all vehicles could be restricted to 55 mph.
Anyway, I've also got a ZX12R with a full race can and no excuse except I like the power, acceleration, , sound and feeling it gives me to ride. I also smoke.... :eek: I have no rational need for any of the above.
I have no problem with emissions-friendly engines, but not at the expense of snatchy power delivery.
Oh yeah, the ZX12 pulls a wheelie at 110 given a bit of clutch. :cool:

[Lager]

Whoah,This is really getting complicated. Trying to modify or adjust the fuel curve of a OBD1 fuel injection system( the Type the ST uses) is best done by altering the fuel pressure. Turbo Toms fuel pressure Regulator will correct Honda's lean mixture they designed into the Fuel curve to meet Calif 2008 emissions..The result of Honda's design, is super lean mixture that leads to all the problems we have at low speeds,PLUS a detonation problem that seems to get over looked.:eek: A problem the Honda engineers realize and tell us to live with.
Turbo Toms Regulator available in the Vender Forum will probably be a better Fix for what ails ya...Cheaper too.

[Scaredy Cat]

Maybe you actually have enough horsepower and can go exceedinly fast already. Maybe the air is worth cleaning up more than a selfish desire to pollute the air in favour of a few more HP. If faster is really what you want then get a VFR or Hayabusa and slap some bags on them.

Yep, I have enough horsepower. I wouldn't call the ST "exceedingly fast" relative to what else is on offer though, and that's not why I bought one. I've got a fast(er) bike, but on the ST I just want to get rid of the throttle snatch between power and overrun. Is that so bad? :confused:
A selfish desire to pullute the air - ho ho ho.


I can't be doing with all this tree hugging nonsense, Europe is killing the proper motorbike.

I just bought a Techlusion EFI so I can run my ST at a more healthy A/F ratio (and of course so I can do my bit for global warming) :D

[pala4evr]

Yep, I have enough horsepower. I wouldn't call the ST "exceedingly fast" relative to what else is on offer though, and that's not why I bought one. I've got a fast(er) bike, but on the ST I just want to get rid of the throttle snatch between power and overrun. Is that so bad? :confused:
A selfish desire to pullute the air - ho ho ho.


I can't be doing with all this tree hugging nonsense, Europe is killing the proper motorbike.

I just bought a Techlusion EFI so I can run my ST at a more healthy A/F ratio (and of course so I can do my bit for global warming) :D

let us know how that Techlusion EFI works out ,

[ChicagoFred]

The Honda GL1800 and I thought the ST1300 already meet the CARB2008 standard. I think there is one other manufacturer who meets it. But it is definitely coming to states other than california.