UK Police Agency Suspend Use of ST's

[jeffmiller]

http://tinyurl.com/f4226

Interesting....have they found some corrolation to this bike and control issues? Makes one wonder....not I BELIEVE it, but it is cause for discussion.

Thoughts anyone?

[Keith_UK]

Jeff - I learned a bit more about this just recently. A couple of key phrases that I read were:

" ... A number of things will come out of this incident, more to do with GMP [Greater Manchester Police] than the 1300 Pan"
and
"... the Police got this very wrong, were too complacent and put the 1300 in to service without proper testing".

Sorry, but I cannot elaborate any more because I do not have the consent of the original author to make this info available to a wider audience. It's still all a bit speculative in any case. But in short: the UK police might have got this very wrong indeed. Civilian spec pans, however, fair best from the testing results.

keith

[Blrfl]

Since you can't say anything, I'll read between the lines: Sounds to me like perhaps GMP perhaps made a modification to the bike that went wrong. De-linked the brakes, maybe...?

--Mark

[Burger]

This was also discussed in the following thread.

http://www.st-owners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15587

Regards,

[Keith_UK]

I’m nervous about disclosing more about this because, as mentioned, I’ve lifted this info from another source, which was essentially a private exchange of opinion, based on the facts that now appear to be emerging from the recent joint Honda/Police investigation.

This is, of course, all highly contentious stuff. Someone’s neck – e.g. one or more of the police motorcycle engineering staff, perhaps? – could now be firmly ‘on the block’ here.

And now for some personal speculation from me:-

The police authorities – and engineers – will no doubt want to apportion the lion’s share of blame on the ST’s fundamental design – and ‘save face’. Whereas Honda will, of course, want quite the reverse – claiming that the UK police modifications rendered the normally stable and reliable STs ‘unsafe’ and outside the compass of the originally designed specifications. After all, Honda has a huge commercial interest in all this.

Same ol’ thing I suspect; in this litigious world, everyone wants to point the finger of blame at someone else … anyone else but themselves!

Even with just the benefit of the small snippets of info that I’ve scavenged so far, I feel a bit more relaxed now than I did before. I think that the ‘civilian’ ST13-Pans, particularly the more recently manufactured models, simply don’t have a problem … at least for the majority of owners (burger-lovin’ former owners, that had one of the slower ‘blue ones’ … excepted … of course! :D )

keef

[Keith_UK]

Post Script:

Let’s just say that I won’t be first in the queue to acquire an ‘ex’ UK police spec Honda ST1300 Pan-European motorsickle.

Although there could be more than just a few on the second-hand market any day soon now!

[Burger]

Well, before this get's too far out of hand... just to keep the record straight... if the high speed feeling of vagueness that I felt on my ST had been the only issue I had with it, I'd probably still be on it :D The fact is, no matter what I'd tried, I couldn't get really comfortable on it... that was the main reason for the change.

Now, from what you're saying Keith, it sounds like you're saying there is a problem with the ST1300P that doesn't exist on the ST1300. Or, are you saying that the police here bought ST1300's and then just added their own gear? I'm confused with all this info you seem to have a line into :D

I wouldn't want you to break anyones confidence, but can't you give a little more material detail without doing so?

Thanks,

[JZH]

There is a ST1300P model, but it doesn't come "fully kitted" with all the gear that is needed for actual use as a police (or ambulance, etc.) bike. Further modifications are made by third parties or by the departments themselves. That doesn't answer the question of who is responsible for the suspect condition of the complete bike, but it does help clarify the issue for me as an owner of a regular ST1300.

Ciao,

[hojo in sc]

I was thinking about buying a BMW Police Bike until an HP that I was talking to said I wouldn't be happy. The bikes are used, and used HARD.

[MilesFromNowhere]

Now Keith, we need at least a clue as to the mod that contributed to the stability issue on the police units. Was it just a matter of too much weight behind the rear wheel. You posts suggest some permanent mod?

More hints please.

[decompressing]

There will be negligable differences between the police-spec bike and civilian model that will impact the ride-ability of the bike...

There was a mod done to the front suspension set-up a year or two back which all the police models got. The reason IMHO that all this is happening is that by their very nature, police bikes will be ridden at far higher ends of their capabilities in terms of speed, handling, loading. So it is only natural that if the bike exhibits slightly less than perfect handling characteristics in the hands of the public, then when given to police riders any short-comings will become very much more obvious (in tragic ways in this case)

This stuff about the brakes being "de-linked" sounds to me nothing more than wild speculation, and nobody should read anything into this until an official source says this was the case.

In terms of legal action against Honda by the police, I think Honda would have a hard job trying to say that the bikes involved in accidents were being ridden "outside" of their operating range...by definition, police bikes will be ridden more "aggresively" (can't think of a better word), and will be expected to operate closer to the maximum than civilian bikes.... remember-these bikes are not civilian models bought by the police and then messed around with to make police bikes...they are an official product marketed by Honda to public service agencies...the bikes are built by Honda as police bikes, the only extra "fettling" being them going to Sonic Communications in the Midlands to have extra electrical equipment installed such as the radio stuff, matrix controller and so on and all of this will be approved by Honda UK....

Will be interesting to see what happens...my personal opinion is that Honda will not come out of this well...

Marc

[Keith_UK]

Thanks for shedding some more light on this Marc; but after all, let's face it, you're probably one of the best placed members of this board to add constructive comment.

You've cleared-up one important point, now beyond doubt, which is that the ST1300P is a different, purpose-specific model built by Honda exclusively for public service agencies, which is not the same machine as the 'civilian' ones that we (the overwhelming majority of us) all ride.

----------------------------------

I have been reluctant to post here what I had read recently on another board, because I have not been given express permission to do so. But here goes anyway – please click on the .pdf file attachments below. I hope the original authors don't mind me reproducing their comments. It’s all sort of in the ‘public domain’ in any case.

Extract from their words what you will, bearing in mind that one of these chaps is a serving officer who rides police motorcycle ‘units’ as part of his job – just like you Marc.

Personally I take some comfort from the fact that I ride a standard civilian 'retail' ST1300 Pan-European. Like I said before, I now wouldn't touch a ST1300P – a UK spec version in particular – with 10-foot barge pole.

[... Hey Marc, perhaps this is the reason why fleets of the buggers are going up for sale, dead cheap, right now. Do you remember your remarks on this very issue back in late June at Beaulieu?]

Anyway, that's two young police officers that have now prematurely died before their time on these specialist bikes: (a) firstly, on Wed-Nov-09 2005, PC David Shreeve (38) from Merseyside; and (b) secondly, on Wed-July-19 2006, PC Allan Shaw (33) from the GMP. Both were married men with young families.

What a damn shame. Our thoughts should be with their surviving families.

R.I.P - David and Allan

[decompressing]

Keith,

I would be interested to know where you got this stuff from. Could you either please post it here (you said it was in the public domain) or if you prefer, can you PM me the details....

Cheers,

Marc

[Keith_UK]

Marc - I just PM'd you.

[Scaredy Cat]

Hang on.....

Quote:
When harsh acceleration was placed on the machine in first gear the bike lost its steering ability as the front wheel raised off the ground in an 'exaggerated state'.
Translation:
They pulled a wheelie. Yeah, that tends to happen if you give it loads

Quote:
Under 10 mph the bike has a rumble/pulse passing through it from the pattern of the rear tyre this could be a factor in loss of balance.
Translation:
Is this guy seriously suggesting you could lose balance because of the tyre tread - how on earth do people manage to stay upright on dirt bikes with huge knobbly tyres on?

Why are Avon tyres doing the investigation? Do the police use Avon tyres? Probably not if Avon tyres are hinting at the tyres being a possible problem.....

[Keith_UK]

Hang on.....

Quote:
When harsh acceleration was placed on the machine in first gear the bike lost its steering ability as the front wheel raised off the ground in an 'exaggerated state'.
Translation:
They pulled a wheelie. Yeah, that tends to happen if you give it loads

Quote:
Under 10 mph the bike has a rumble/pulse passing through it from the pattern of the rear tyre this could be a factor in loss of balance.
Translation:
Is this guy seriously suggesting you could lose balance because of the tyre tread - how on earth do people manage to stay upright on dirt bikes with huge knobbly tyres on?

Why are Avon tyres doing the investigation? Do the police use Avon tyres? Probably not if Avon tyres are hinting at the tyres being a possible problem.....

Scaredy Cat - You echo my thoughts ... it does sound like a load of BS; and believe me, there's more than just the two of us thinking this way. Gawd ... when are we gonna get to the bottom of this :rolleyes: ... cuz I'm growing tired of the whole thing.

I still in love my 'civi' ST13 Pan-European ..
.. but starting to hate its UK ST1300P cousin :rocket1:

[Keith_UK]

PS - I was going to show my ignorance :o: by asking the question: *** is a 'shimmy test'.

Well after a quick google search I've discovered that it's, "a 'weave' and the alarmingly named 'tank slapper'..."
So now you know, if ya didn't know before.

Well FWIW, please note that I've come nowhere near to experiencing any sort of 'shimmy' on my Pan. AND I've had to grab A LOT of break lever from time-to-time over the last 18 months.

Just more BS ... perhaps :confused:

[Scaredy Cat]

As for naturally occurring harmonic tankslappers, my ZX12R has one. The trick is to hang on, and ignore the impulses from your adrenlain. I'm on track tomorrow - not on the ST.
These things are motorbikes, not NASA projects.

[Redeye]

From an anon. source within the police:-

"We now check tyre pressures daily as they are critical .......... the Sonic rear light unit is like a wing and pushes the back end down, the faster you go the more it pushes and lightens the front end, just like a race car, plus it sticks out and catches the wind .... our civilian bike has none of the handling problems .... "

[MilesFromNowhere]

Anybody have a link to pics of the UK police spec bike?

[B11RGER]

Anybody have a link to pics of the UK police spec bike?
image of the rear with the matrix box fitted. attached

[Britman]

image of the rear with the matrix box fitted. attached

My motor officer Captain buddy here in Georgia tells me about rding police spec Kawasakis 1,000 some years ago. The bikes would get into a weave as speeds increased. Someone eventually worked out it was due to having one light pole on the bike. They fitted another and hey presto no more weave.

I note that the photo of the ST's above shows the bikes with one light pole

[Peter]

My motor officer Captain buddy here in Georgia tells me about rding police spec Kawasakis 1,000 some years ago. The bikes would get into a weave as speeds increased. Someone eventually worked out it was due to having one light pole on the bike. They fitted another and hey presto no more weave.

I note that the photo of the ST's above shows the bikes with one light pole
Funny that

I road tested the bike below and that had a weave that I did not like at about 80

this caused me to not have a proper test ride as I brought the bike back early

and that has one pole although it is a bit more central

I chose at that time not to buy a 1300 and started looking for a newer 1100

how things change

Please excuse the quality of the image it taken on a mobile phone

http://www.hotsunsets.com/27-02-05_1509.jpg



Peter

[CrashTestDanny]

This is very interesting. My ST had an instability problem at highway speeds (medium frequency, medium amplitude weave). This happened to me many times while riding I-70 and I-64 in the STL area. It happened both before and after my accident, so I knew it was not that. What I finally pinned it on was the Metzler z-6 tires. They started cupping visibly at 2,500 miles and were shot by 4,000. Tire pressure was never off by more than +- 1psi (SmartTire is the best way to make sure!).

Well, I replaced the Metzlers with Michelin Pilot Roads and I absolutely love the stability and handling that they give. The roll is linear like with the Metzlers, but they don't feel like they want to slide around the way the Metzlers always did. I now have about 1,000 miles on the PRs and if they last as long as the OEM Dunlops, I will stick with them - otherwise, I'll probably go back to the OEM Dunlops since the only issue I had with them was the tendency of the bike to fall in and it never really bothered me much.

Anyhow, I wonder what tires the police are running and if they have considered them as a potential source of their troubles...

[patentcad]

I'm running Bridgestone Battleax tires on my ST. 2004 ABS model, 2nd set of Battleax tires (first set lasted 7K miles). Zero problems at speeds up to 110mph with the Honda top box installed. The bike's front end can feel flighty in high winds, but isn't that typical of many motorcycles? And it only FEELS a bit flighty. I've yet to feel anything like any real instability, wobbling, etc. The odd thing about the ST is that on a windy day it actually feels more stable at 80+mph than it does @ 70mph.

[KLRCraig]

I have worked very close with Honda USA on the 1100P & 1300P and they have very little input on what equipment to use. We learned a long time ago not to use pole lamps on Police motorcycles.The 1300's with abs, we use are just the same bikes as sold to the public the only thing they change is RH bar switch add a plate to mount a radio and a rear cover inplace of the rear seat.
I now have 9 1100's & 6 1300's and just ordered 6 more 1300's

Craig

[hairycamel]

I feel that I should leap in here, to defend the honour of my particular bargain STeed. A few months ago, I bought an '05 ST1300P from a Honda dealer in London. It only had 3200 miles on the clock, and had come form West Yorkshire Police, no doubt as part of the UK "get rid of the bloody things" campaign. Since then, I have travelled about 1700 miles on it with and with out pillion, and with / without the topbox.

Results: The only time the front end gets a bit vague, is at very high speeds with the screen in the highest position. This only happens occasionally, and no worse than any other large plastic covered bike that I have owned or ridden. It also depends on wake turbulence from large vehicles and wind direction etc. In my opinion, during ahem, testing to 130 mph, there are no inherent problems with this model. I am more worried about the state of my arse after a long trip in the stock saddle!!

In summary, there is nothing wrong with the bike and I got an absolute bargain. WooHoo!!!!!!!!

[WarER4X]

My current set of Avons produce a front end wobble in the 40-45 mph range. They have done this since day one. Now that the front tire has about 5K miles on it (it was replaced once under warranty because I thought the first tire was defective), it has developed severe cupping in the middle of the tread (as opposed to the sides, which is more common). Now the wobble is even more pronounced, obviously. If I have little or no hand pressure on the bars in the above mentioned speed range, the wobble will quickly progress to a tank slapper. Of course, I don't let it go that far, but all it takes is about 1-2 seconds with no hands on the bars (and thus, no damping) to become a dangerous wobble.

I can't wait 'til my front Pilot Road finally comes in. This backorder thing is for the birds!

-SR-

[travlr_45]

I run the bridgestone BT 020 stock tires on 07 ST. I'v had it 7 weeks, rolled up 5500 miles, and no problems. also, I'v had the bike up to 115 mph. no wobbles here

[code3st]

I ride an 05 ST-P w/o the telescopic light and no wobble up to 120 mph. Very steady bike.

[RTR]

No issues yet with my '06 ST-P. Then again, I have only about 700 miles on it so far.