MSF or No MSF.....

[emshaferii]

I was curious about the distribution of MSF course completions in our little group. Choose all that applies.:PoPoST1:

[Burger]

OK, at the risk of sounding like the party pooper, I'd like to use this oportunity to suggest that polls such as this are better asked as a simple question, in the right forum, with normal text answers from those that want to answer.

While the poll system will certainly cope with such a diverse topic and range of answers, I'm not sure that it gives a fair picture, or in fact makes it possible for everyone to answer. In a way, it even stiffles discussion. For instance, anywhere else in the world, MSF is pretty meaningless. Sure, we have advanced rider courses but I have no idea how they stack up against the MSF courses and so wouldn't have a clue how to answer this poll.

I certainly don't want to spoil anyone's fun so don't take this as criticism please, but I do think some topics are simply better discussed.

Regards,

[DataHawk]

I was curious about the distribution of MSF course completions in our little group. Choose all that applies.:PoPoST1:

No little check box for "I am a MSF Rider Coach"

[vintagemxr]

MSF training hadn't been invented yet when I got my motorcycle license. :oilleak1:

I've looked at their programs since then but never felt a need to participate. On the other hand, I steadfastly refuse to teach friends to ride and always refer them to the local MSF class.

:)

[motomac]

+1 for what DataHawk said.

[Jim C-G]

There were no courses available when I got my MC lisence. (1972) I was lucky enough to have older and wiser mentors and I did the progression of 50cc, 175cc (3 months), 350cc (1 yr) and then 750cc - I had a lot of time to learn skills at relatively safe speeds - too easy to get on a 600cc or 1liter sports bike with far too much power now-a-days. I do recoomend MC training for new riders - sold my old 750 to a mature first time rider (60 yr. old) - but wouldn't seal the deal until he told me he was already signed up for the course. Somedays I think I should take a course.... but....

[willd]

I completed the BRC in 2000 and have taken the ERC a couple of times in the last few years. I intend to take it again here in the near future. I've also done some on-racetrack instruction and mentoring in the last couple of years as well.

I'm a firm believer in continuing education (even if it seems mundane :D)

[JReviere]

I agree with Burger.

Yes, MSF in the US is a valuable asset in over all rider safety. However, MSF and it's importance is somewhat over blown, I think. MSF training has become the "thing" to do on the basis of the influence of non-riders relative to insurance rates, getting reduced fines on tickets etc. But, it's not the end-all it is commonly sold as being. For a first time rider, it's the best we have to offer.

Burger suggested discussion in lieu of poll answers. The poll, while incomplete and buying into the mythology surrounding the magic of MSF, did, in this case, stimulate discussion.

Personally, I've been riding over 60 years. I've never taken an MSF course and I probably never will.

For upwards of 20 years, I flew Uncle's big metal noise makers. We had "fly safe" mandatory meetings every month. Safety was pounded into us and not with a soft mallet.

Long ago I founded a GWRRA chapter in Conroe, TX. The first ride as a group demonstrated a need for safety training on the part of the memebers. Calling upon years of FLY SAFE training, I adapted the procedures, and especially the MENTAL ATTITUDE to motorcycling, wrote a safety training course, and taught it to all the riders in my GW chapter. I gave... FREE ... the materiels to other GW chapters and ultimtely to GW itself.

Later when MSF became the rage, I took a good look at their materiels... It was, page upon page, A VERBATIM COPY of what I'd written and passed out free to the motorcycle community. I won't claim plagerism, but I was NOT given credit for the original materiel on which the very first beginning rider course was based.

Although, following this copyrighting of materiel developed by another, still causes a very unpleasing taste in my mouth relative to MSF as an operation, I still urge new riders to avail themselves of the training. Anyone else who feels they would benefit should also take the training.

In fact, I think it should be free to riders and sponsored by the industry to encourage more people to ride rather than "cage" it.

JR
394
03ST1300A
Lake Livingston, TX

[Wolvie]

OK, I’ll throw my hat in the ring on this one…

Taking an approved safety course is without question on of the best things you can do as a rider. Admittedly, I am a little biased on this subject, but I wouldn’t have dedicated the years of my life to something that had no purpose.

The biggest misconception is the thought that the MSF course is just for beginner or novice riders. Well, nothing could be farther from the truth. An Experienced Rider Course (ERC), while not a licensing course and not a Points and Insurance Reduction (PIRP) course is still an excellent opportunity for you to brush up on your skills and knock some of the rust off. Most people don’t know that the ERC is designed so you can have a passenger with you during most of the exercises. You may be (or think you are…) the greatest, safest rider in the world…but if your passenger doesn’t know how to react during emergency braking or swerving…well…let’s say it can get ugly quickly.

As a safety professional with the New York State Motorcycle Safety Program, I have attended many, many events here in the state as a representative of the program. Events such as Americade invariably get us many of the same responses I read elsewhere:

“I’ve been riding for 50 years…why do I need a course?”
“I never had an accident (well, not on THIS bike…).”
“I already have a license…”
“What are you going to teach me?”

It’s after this that I usually have the opportunity to see riders heading down Canada Street in Lake George. Let’s say that there is probably more rubber on the road from people dragging their feet than there is from the tires of the 50,000+ bikes that show up.

Professional Instructors/RiderCoaches usually work with each other on the off-hours because you will pick up bad habits. These are riding professionals that do this for a living and they are just as susceptible as anyone else. The best way to identify these bad habits and correct them is to practice under the direction of a professional.

If you watch a baseball game, you will see two circles outside or each dugout that have paths that lead to home plate. These circles are warm-up circles. This means that professional baseball players, who get paid to hit a ball, have to practice and warm up before they actually get ready to do it. The thing is that these people aren’t involved in a sport that requires them to dodge traffic on the interstate. Think about it: a professional who only has to hit a ball has to practice…yet people who pilot a 500+ pound machine on the roads with obstacles, drunk drivers, etc, all done at greater than 90 feet per second will try and tell you they don’t need practice or professional instruction.

Think about it. The best upgrade you can do for your machine is sharpening the part between your ears.

[HankSTer]

And from another Rider Coach:

All the comments I've read here are true, we get people that have been riding for many many years and feel we have nothing to teach them.

Here's what we teach experienced and inexperienced riders:

1) emergency braking (using both brakes, with all 4 fingers).
2) emergency swerving (new to most 'experienced' riders).
3) proper cornering technique.

All of these skills can save your life. Slow tight turns in a parking lot dont' save your life, I practice slow tight turns because it gives me confidence to control the motorcycle. I practice the 3 above even more, for obvious reasons.

Regards,

[Wolvie]

Hank has it exactly right...

The 3 skills that WILL save your life are: Braking, Cornering & Swerving.

Concerning these three skills, I can say that I NEVER, in all my years, seen a student do all of them correctly the first time around. Think about it for a minute...not a single person has performed all 3 of these correctly the first time.

Now that is on a range in a controlled area. No panic, no traffic, no adrenaline. Translate that to the street in a life-threatening situation and you have the proverbial recipe for disaster.

Hank also mentioned the reasoning for low-speed, limited-space maneuvers. I'd like to add that these maneuvers not only build confidence but, more importantly, help develop fine skills. These fine skills are what help you in controlling your machine during an emergency. You aren't going to be successful if you grab at the brake or yank the bars. Low-speed maneuvering helps refine these smooth actions.

So, in essence, you develop your fine skills, and then you build on those skills with the life-saving maneuvers.

[jeffmiller]

I just got accepted for the Instructor program, and am very excited. Big time commitment, but I thought it would be a great way to return something for new riders. Love the idea of trying to make riders safer riders.

[illzoni]

Jeff,

Congrats on your impending RCP!

I purchased my first motorcycle in Illinois in 1991. I was on PCS orders from Germany to Tucson with a wad of money in my pocket to set up household in Tucson with my fiancee. She bailed. I bought the bike and rode it cross-country with zero experience or training.

I was insulted that the base required me to take the beginners' course--I had 3000 miles under my belt!

Since then, I've drank the Kool-Aid served by the MSF. Took the Instructor Prep in 1997. The only things I disliked about the old RSS where the drill sergeant like commands and shouting on the range. That's gone with the BRC. Took the RiderCoach Prep in 2004.

During that RCP, we taught a BRC. One participant was a knarly older rider with 30 years experience. Without provocation, he proclaimed he'd been riding forever, but probably had some bad habits to break.

For any of you thinking you don't need organized training, ask yourselves a few questions:

When's the last time you practiced maximum braking technique?
Swerving?
Cornering?

In a controlled environment?

With trained eyes coaching you?

Only wish I had more time to teach. With family (wife, kids 8 & 6) and Natl Guard duty (f/t plus 1 weekend/month), I'm currently teaching range at least once a month.

Jon Ransom
Ventura, CA
STOC 063
MSF RiderCoach (www.msf-usa.org)
current: 91 SSM-ST1100 (new 40A alt)
former: 85 Vulcan, 93 ST1100A, 96 VFR, 89 HawkGT
www.illzoni.com/bikes

[GRN]

Jeff,

Another congratz here too:D

I was planning on taking the RCP this fall as well, but when the schedule came together, the third and final portion student teaching conflicted with my commit to host NNESTOC. Next year will be soon enough. Good luck man!

[HankSTer]

Congrats also Jeff!

it is a commitment, as you say, but worth it, when you see the smiling students at the end of the wkend, and you know they are starting out with some very valuable knowledge.

Regards,

[DataHawk]

I just got accepted for the Instructor program, and am very excited. Big time commitment, but I thought it would be a great way to return something for new riders. Love the idea of trying to make riders safer riders.

Congrautlations! You will love being a Rider/Coach, my only regret is that I can only be out on the range twice a month.

I always ask the students that have ridden for "years" at the end of the class if they felt like they learned anything. I have never received a No! Every one of them have always said they got something out of the class.
I also stress to the new riders that they are not experienced riders just because they finished the class. They need more practice before they get out onto the streets where they are guarenteed to lose any battle with a cage.

[Kempo-STer]

I just got accepted for the Instructor program, and am very excited. Big time commitment, but I thought it would be a great way to return something for new riders. Love the idea of trying to make riders safer riders.


Congrats Jeff...

I've been only riding for 3 years (38,000 miles in those 3 years) . However each year I have taken a course.
Year 1 was the BRC, Year 2 was the ERC and this May was the Lee Parks total contol class. I loved each and every class.
I highly recommend these classes. Even if you think an MSF class is not for you, take the Total Control class. You will be challenged no matter how good you 'think' you are.
I'd love to become an instructor but am afraid of the time commitment for the prep program.


Remember: "A Closed mind can never learn anything"

[patentcad]

Congrats also Jeff!

it is a commitment, as you say, but worth it, when you see the smiling students at the end of the wkend, and you know they are starting out with some very valuable knowledge.

Regards,

I started riding 2.5 years ago @ age 46. The ST was my first motorcycle. I signed up for the basic 2 day MSF course. My observations:

• I had NO IDEA of what I DID NOT KNOW about basic motorcycle 'duh' dynamics until I took the MSF course. At first I thought 'wait, this is dopey, they have us walking these little motorcycles'. But as the course progressed my ignorance was revealed to me in layers.

• The elementary and extremely repetitive nature of the course pounded these basics into me - and they're still in my thick head after 2+ years.

• Not a day goes by (and I try hard to ride daily between June and October) where I don't think 'thank God I took that MSF course' because I still apply the basic principles on every ride. I can't tell you how many times I think that course knowledge has saved my bacon on the road.

• I've only ridden my ST 8,000 miles over the 2.5 seasons - but again, I do try to ride daily. I use the bike for all my local errands and trips, and I'm riding 5+ days a week at the moment. I feel much safer riding regularly than occasionally and I feel it's making me a better rider. I've gone from riding on lonely country roads around here - to being quite comfortable taking my ST into Midtown Manhattan @ rush hour to see clients.

So I'm a big believer in MSF instruction. You can TELL people this stuff, or they can read it in a book or off a flyer. But two days with other newbie riders on the range with an instructor - THAT's what drives these basics home in a meaningful way. I'm hoping they make an MSF course a requirement for getting a motorcycle license in NY State soon. I wonder how many lives THAT would save?

[Raven]

I also stress to the new riders that they are not experienced riders just because they finished the class. They need more practice before they get out onto the streets where they are guarenteed to lose any battle with a cage.


I teach MSF classes here in AZ and I end every class with the "more practice" speech reminding them that the "M" on the back of the license doesn't mean "motorcycle" it means you're granted the opportunity for "more practice." :)

Enjoy the RC Prep!

[RideCoach]

It is good to see so many MSF Coaches/instructors on here. As an instructor in Daytona for many years, I did receive my unfair share of "experienced" 1% club members. By the end of the weekend whether basic or advanced to a person came to me and told me how much they had learned and thanks.
Also, I saw on here someone claiming the information was what they had done for safety.
Acutally, MSF was based on the principles and practices of David Hough, Profeccient Motorcycling.
I dont care how long, how many miles you have been riding, you can learn safety manuvers in any of the classes. Even after all these years of teaching I still learn something each time I teach.
Lynn

[Blue STreak]

I have my issues with some of the content, and how the MSF classes are taught. (And I'm not alone--MCN did a major series of stories in the last year that were a real eye-opener.) But it's still way better than nothing.

[Gug]

I came up old school, ride and learn. Until I bought this bike I never really read anything in the line of motorcycle safety at all. From reading this forum I bought David Hough's book and Keith Code's as well. Both have taught me alot. This bike is my first to try countersteering with. That in itself has been a plus. But I generally take it easy on this bike. I try to keep super slab at 70-75 indicated.

[John Anthony]

I'm one of those believers in continuous education. Maggie and I have both taken the basic course plus we took a precision cornering workshop in LA earlier this summer and got a lot out of it. Now that I'll be riding more, I plan to get some formal training every couple of years. I also like the idea of reading a good book or two in between as well as learning from others on this forum. Carl had a thread going a month or two back that had a ton of good info. in it.

john

[patentcad]

After about 1.5 years of riding, I went back and took a 2 hour private lesson with my MSF instructor (the Advanced class wasn't available locally for a while, they assured me this was even better). And it was great. A refresher of the MSF basic course material and maneuvers - BUT ON MY 700lb. ST1300. And that was an eye-opener. I scraped my pegs for the first time that day on the non-threatening confines of the MSF range. And it was just perfect.

I'm a huge believer in MSF. I have their sticker on my ST's frame. And I have to thank all the MSF instructors out there. You're saving lives (including mine) every day you teach another class. Keep the faith.

There's a lot of 'cool factor' and image thing in motorcycling in general. You know what's 'cool' to me? Doing a beautiful ride AND GETTING HOME UNSCATHED TO SHARE THE MEMORIES WITH MY FAMILY AND FRIENDS. Everything else strikes me as pure horsesiht. But then I'm preaching to the choir. Nobody buys an ST for image. It's a bike for people who LIKE TO RIDE. I've never seen a leather clad dude swaggering around outside a bar with an ST 1100 or 1300 : ).

[EagleSix]

I completed the ERC this past Saturday. It was a good course, my final evaluation score was a '-B'. Not great, not excellent, but a good course I would recommend to most of the riders I know, with some reservations. I rated the BRC with a 'C+' and the Dirt Bike Course (I guess that would be the DBC?) with a 'B'.

.

[Wayne-05A]

Took all my courses with the BC Safety Council. Similar Content to MSF with some differences.

After riding for 20+ years, I took the ERC about 8 years ago. I enjoyed it and learned that I had a whole lot to learn about riding. I took the ERC again two years later and learned even more. I then embarked on the journey to be an instructor. Went through the basic course as a student then the training to become an instructor after which I taught for about two years.

I moved away from Vancouver last year for career reasons and haven't got back into instructing yet. Training enhances the enjoyment of riding and I would recommend it to anyone.

Wayne

[GRN]

I just got accepted for the Instructor program, and am very excited. Big time commitment, but I thought it would be a great way to return something for new riders. Love the idea of trying to make riders safer riders.

Hey Jeff, when are you doing RCP, or did you already? I thought I was going to have to wait for the May round, but they let me do the student teaching leg on another weekend so that I could get the first 6 days in this fall starting next Friday... pretty jazzed, everyone involved seems pretty cool. We only had 2 new candidates get sponsered this round out of hundreds, pretty selective.

[DeSTy]

Can one of the MSF coaches please go over what you teach in say, an advance course?. A simple list of objective vs technique would be very interesting.

Something along the lines of:

Emergency Braking - Setting up to preload front brakes & suspension followed by 100% braking force to stop in the minimum distance.


The reason I ask this is purely from an interest point of view on my behalf, to get some idea of the difference in rider training and proficiency between Au and US riders. I was watching an episode of "American Chopper" recently where Paul Snr told Paul Jnr not to install a front brake, "you shouldn't be using the front brake anyway, you'll end up on your *** over the bars"... surely this isn't really the perception that US motorcyclists have of the front brake???

Also, someone mentioned that they only recently discovered counter-steering... how the heck do you ride a motorcycle without counter-steering??? How can you possibly avoid an obstacle (swerve) without counter-steering???

[GRN]

The reason I ask this is purely from an interest point of view on my behalf, to get some idea of the difference in rider training and proficiency between Au and US riders. I was watching an episode of "American Chopper" recently where Paul Snr told Paul Jnr not to install a front brake, "you shouldn't be using the front brake anyway, you'll end up on your *** over the bars"... surely this isn't really the perception that US motorcyclists have of the front brake???

Also, someone mentioned that they only recently discovered counter-steering... how the heck do you ride a motorcycle without counter-steering??? How can you possibly avoid an obstacle (swerve) without counter-steering???

Dude, you need to understand how diverse our culture is, and that the views of any micro sub group are likely to not represent us as a whole. You can consider anyone who is part of, or watches "American Chopper" to be one of said groups... that represents the very small tip of one extreme! Some US motorcyclists may not even consider folks with such... let's say limited views, as motorcyclists... the chopper thing is something on to itself here. So the short answer is NO, the vast majority of "US motorcyclists" are not that DUMB.
:D

PS, folks all over the world who start riding prior to getting any education will actually execute countersteering well before they "discover" it's principal on a level where it becomes a concious action, and is then expanded upon. I know I did.

[Raven]

Can one of the MSF coaches please go over what you teach in say, an advance course?. A simple list of objective vs technique would be very interesting.


This is a brief run-down of the ERC curriculum. It is similar to the BRC curriculum with emphasis on Cornering, Braking & Swerving but participants use their personal bikes and typically speeds are higher.

Riding points:
• Inline weaves at 20' & 30' (to judge general vehicle control and as a warm-up) then offset weave exercise with offsets of 20'x8' and 15'x3'
• Stopping quickly
• Limited space u-turns (counterweight) 2 u-turns within a 24'x70' box
• Proper cornering technique & cornering judgement - slow, look, press, roll
• Stopping quickly in a curve
• Swerving
• Multiple curved course to practice cornering technique and setting up for the next curve.

talking points:
• T-CLOCS (pre-ride inspection)
• proper gear
• risk awareness
• awareness strategy for the street (Search, Evaluate, Execute - SEE)
• looking well ahead (2 seconds following distance, 4 seconds immediate path, 12 seconds anticipated path)
• proper cornering
• traction management (very rudimentary - don't brake & change direction at the same time)
• impairment issues

[DeSTy]

Dude, you need to understand how diverse our culture is, and that the views of any micro sub group are likely to not represent us as a whole. You can consider anyone who is part of, or watches "American Chopper" to be one of said groups... that represents the very small tip of one extreme! Some US motorcyclists may not even consider folks with such... let's say limited views, as motorcyclists... the chopper thing is something on to itself here. So the short answer is NO, the vast majority of "US motorcyclists" are not that DUMB.
:D

PS, folks all over the world who start riding prior to getting any education will actually execute countersteering well before they "discover" it's principal on a level where it becomes a concious action, and is then expanded upon. I know I did.

Thanks for the respnse GRN, I'm well aware that the Tuetels and their band of merry followers are more likely the exception rather than the rule. I'm more interested in the differences in rider traiing for licensing requirements from country to country.

Here, we have very stringent requirements involving many hours of tuition and then even more road training before a user is allowed to take to the streets, limited to a 250cc motorcycle. That limitation lasts 12 months before again, being tested and allowed to move up to an unlimited license. The testing used here is subjective, based on competency rather than a set "do these things and pass" type test. If the instructor doesn't feel you're a competent rider, you won't get your license.

[GRN]

Desty,

we have nowhere near that much structure (common sense) being applied in any of the States I'm familiar with. I guess some see it as one of the last shreds of Natural Selection to yet be legislated away or technologically canceled... and if that's the case they hadn't though of the potential of a 16 year old boy being let loose with his own personal 160 mph+ real life video game.... might just as well give them a loaded gun. I give dealers a hard time when I see them trying to help some kid figure out how to finance one of the worlds 20 fastest production bikes for their first ride... and the parents???... there are several levels where there needs to be more accountability on a community level... if we all just pulled our heads out of our asses we would need a lot less government (speaking of heads in asses).
Gotta stop myself man, gonna go too far, probably already did... cheers mate ;)

[DeSTy]

Desty,

we have nowhere near that much structure (common sense) being applied in any of the States I'm familiar with. I guess some see it as one of the last shreds of Natural Selection to yet be legislated away or technologically canceled... and if that's the case they hadn't though of the potential of a 16 year old boy being let loose with his own personal 160 mph+ real life video game.... might just as well give them a loaded gun. I give dealers a hard time when I see them trying to help some kid figure out how to finance one of the worlds 20 fastest production bikes for their first ride... and the parents???... there are several levels where there needs to be more accountability on a community level... if we all just pulled our heads out of our asses we would need a lot less government (speaking of heads in asses).
Gotta stop myself man, gonna go too far, probably already did... cheers mate ;)


I'm all for removing the warning labels from everything and letting nature take it's course!.

People often ask me how dangerous motorcycle riding is, and then proceed to tell me how much safer their car is in an accident along with their theory on motorcyclists being "hoons". I simply ask them, how many motorcycle accidents and rider fatalities do you think there would be if you took ALL the other vehicles off the road?.

Usually, a blank stare follows...