Stock ST1300 Filter vs. K&N Replacement Filter [Archive]

Byron

08-21-2006, 10:46 PM

Byron

09-18-2006, 05:56 PM

Well l will try and summarize what I have found.

They are tested using SAE J726 test protocal which was supposedly adopted by ISO.

Using dust that ranges from 5.5 to 176 microns they run about 96% to 98% efficience.

At the same time will flow 30% to 70% more air vs. paper elements.

Recommended cleaning interval is 50,000 miles vs. 10,000 miles typical for paper element that is trashed.

They can be cleaned sooner but K&N does not recommend less than 15,000 miles as there is no noted benefit.

If you want to read their stance on vehicle warranty here is the link (http://www.knfilters.com/warrantyletter.htm).

I hope this was helpful.

racer1735

09-18-2006, 08:24 PM

As an old hot-rodder, I have a K&N filter in both of my cars as well as my ST1300. his is about he same mentality as the argument over which oil and oil filter to use....to me, a few microns of dust isn't going to degrade the engine over 75,000 miles. Use a good oil and oil filter and it will help flush the dust away.

Mongo

09-19-2006, 10:47 PM

I have K&n air and oil filters in every cage/motorcycle I own.

tommyboy

03-17-2007, 04:18 PM

I too, have installed K&N air filters in both cars and the ST. In the case of the Toyota Highlander, it was only a few bucks more that the stock element. In my Civic, it was 2X the price.

UNTMatt

03-21-2007, 07:13 PM

Had one in my Daytona and now one in the ST. Over 3000 miles and the airbox is still clean as a whistle. Personally, I've not seen any evidence of a engine failure due to a K&N filter (probably the same thing as Tom's performance air filter (http://www.turbocity.com/product_info.php?cPath=64&products_id=587&osCsid=39173aaab2284b2aa31896ef6228e224)) so I'll keep using mine.

UNTMatt

03-21-2007, 07:15 PM

O.K., now I know this has been talked about before but I don't believe there was any evidence of the difference. Well I just found this article (http://www.motorcycledaily.com/21september04_kandnfilter.htm).

The short report is the K&N made more HP at the rear wheels.

That's the second one I've seen that showed 116 - 117 rwhp after a K&N install.

Thanks to the ST's electronics we don't have to mess with fuel mapping like I did with the Daytona.

Geoff

03-21-2007, 08:45 PM

back in the mid nineties i had an 8500lb inboard boat with a 454 with a four barrel on it..it would burn about 15 gallons an hour at cruisung about 3200 rpm's...K&N finally got USCG approval for their flame arrestor air cleaner and for the miserly price of $110 i put one on...the fuel burn dropped to 11 gallons an hour immediately...do they work ..I think so..my mustang cobra has one and its great..the ST will get one at the first change...just my .02 cents.Geoff:soapbox :smile:

dduelin

03-21-2007, 09:04 PM

Be careful with the install and check it after a few thousand miles for leaks. My bike had one installed before I bought it and when I checked it at 24,000 miles I found that it had warped for whatever reason in the ST's airbox allowing two gaps of unfiltered air on each side of center. The pic was done on the quick but you can see where the pleats on the left side are puckered. I laid a ruler across it to show the gaps although the right side gap is exaggerated. Installed the gap was even on either side. In the center where the filter media is joined together there is a sheet metal stiffener. At this point is the high spot with a gap to either side.

dduelin

03-21-2007, 10:19 PM

Was sealing grease used?

Paul

You know the answer to this question Paul as you were all over me for reporting this warped K & N filter as I found it. Grease wouldn't have prevented the pressure that the airbox put on the filter to crush it down on either side of the stiffener nor would grease seal the gaps that were created when it warped.

Don't shoot the messenger - all I did was find it like this. Just take care when you install them or you might find the gaps plugged with dirt, leaves, and feathers like I did.

Byron

03-21-2007, 10:32 PM

Dave,

Judging from the picture it looks like something crushed one side of the filter which is why it's not flat. Were you able to straighten out the pleats to make it flat again?

dduelin

03-21-2007, 10:47 PM

Dave,

Judging from the picture it looks like something crushed one side of the filter which is why it's not flat. Were you able to straighten out the pleats to make it flat again? The picture is misleading because I let the ruler tip to one side. Both sides of center were crushed down on the side facing the camera but the pleats on the one end do look worse than the other. I left the filter out in the sun a few days and it did relax almost back to normal. I plan to reinstall it at some point - with the grease that Paul suggests but I won't leave it in there thousands of miles before checking the fit.

DHTracker

03-21-2007, 11:21 PM

Mine came with a K&N. If there is grease, I don't see it. Did it come in the box with the new filter? Bet Pep Boys lacks it. Didn't see it when I got one for my truck. The K&N rep at the International bike show in Ft. Worth says just tap the dirt out ans keep going. If you clean it they do have an oil and you only need a smidgen.

UNTMatt

03-22-2007, 10:52 AM

I've mentioned this before and I'll keep on doing it in every K & N thread.

The K & N air filter for the ST requires a sealing grease between the air box and the filter. K & N sells a tube of sealing grease that is almost wax like it is so thick but this is critical for a proper seal. Don't install one without it.

Paul

Yes, and thanks to you, I fixed that one small issue. The filter did not come with those instructions (or at least mine did not) but they are posted on their website. If I remember correctly, K&N also states that you can use silicone grease to seal it. I used NAPA Sil-Glyde to seal mine up tight and it has worked great so far.

UNTMatt

03-22-2007, 10:58 AM

The picture is misleading because I let the ruler tip to one side. Both sides of center were crushed down on the side facing the camera but the pleats on the one end do look worse than the other. I left the filter out in the sun a few days and it did relax almost back to normal. I plan to reinstall it at some point - with the grease that Paul suggests but I won't leave it in there thousands of miles before checking the fit.

If it were me in your shoes, I'd toss that K&N and get a new one just in the off chance the K&N you have is defective or permanently damaged. Install the new one with sealing grease and keep an eye on it.

I've not heard of anyone having a K&N do what yours did. The one in my Daytona got substanually hotter than the one in the ST and it never warped or failed in any way.

UNTMatt

03-22-2007, 11:00 AM

The K&N rep at the International bike show in Ft. Worth says just tap the dirt out ans keep going. If you clean it they do have an oil and you only need a smidgen.

They have a cleaning kit and I would recommend it over 'tapping' out the dirt. Downside is you have to wait for the filter to dry prior to oiling it and reinstallation but it really gets the dirt out of the filter. Do not use an air compressor or heater to accellerate the drying time.

vossman

03-22-2007, 12:23 PM

Rant on:
My ***** with this is if it is required, and it is on the ST13 filter, it should come in the box with the filter. If they are not going to put it in the box there should at least be a notice that it is required and must be purchased separately.
Rant off:

Paul

Rant agreed with, it should be in the box for at least the first install.

STreaker

03-22-2007, 01:00 PM

dduelin

03-23-2007, 03:40 PM

Here is a fly in the sealing grease.

Today I called around to find some K & N oil and sealing grease. The oil was at the second place I called but none of the shops I called stocked the grease by itself however each shop had their own recommendation for what I could use to seal it. I have this covered.

OK - so I go to the closest shop to buy the filter oil and a guy who I know comes up to the counter next to me. I know him from his own independent shop where he specializes in building and tuning high performance motorcycles. I had actually called his shop first for the K & N oil but they were out of stock. I asked him about sealing grease recommendations.

He asked if I was going to put the K & N back into my bike. Yes, I was due to the 6 hp increase I saw on the dyno run in this thread. He said that he had never breathed on a ST1300 V4 but in some other Hondas and other bikes he said the stock airbox and filter work pretty well and sometimes the K & N adds top end hp at the expense of low and midrange torque. He said to check the stock vs. K & N torque curve as he suggested I would be happier with more torque in the normal rev range so that roll on out of curves and rolling on to pass traffic would be better vs a few extra hp when wringing it WFO to redline.

I went back and checked the dyno chart and there is no stock and K & N torque curve to compare! Now I got to wonder if he was right and the stock set up is better for the type of riding I do.

Anyone seen a before and after set of torque curves overlaid on the horsepower curves?

racer1735

03-23-2007, 07:38 PM

He asked if I was going to put the K & N back into my bike. Yes, I was due to the 6 hp increase I saw on the dyno run in this thread.

Now I got to wonder if he was right and the stock set up is better for the type of riding I do.

Anyone seen a before and after set of torque curves overlaid on the horsepower curves?

Unless you plan to smoke guys at the dragstrip, its all going to be seat-of-the-pants stuff. To me, the bike is more rideable (at least the way I ride) after installing the K&N. It's kind of like when I was hopping up Bandit 1200s' and guys would get all worked up over an extry 1.5 hp. When you are making 110-112 hp after some regular hop-up mods, what's another 1.5?:04biker:

UNTMatt

03-23-2007, 10:14 PM

My filter instructions did say to use the sealing grease. Not all K & N's require the grease it is dependent on how it mounts.

Maybe I got the wrong directions in mine or a different set of instructions or they were missing. Couldn't tell you...it's been more than a day in which case all memory of mine has been purged. All I do remember is that I did not see anything indicating sealing grease needing to be used. After your first post on it though, I found it on their website. Thanks for passing the info on.

Sailormilan2

03-23-2007, 10:35 PM

I remember years ago when I first used a K&N in my old CB500. I got a consistant 35 mpg....................no matter what I did. Then I put in a K&N. Milage went to 50 mpg. I was happy.

nm6r

03-24-2007, 09:37 PM

Maybe I got the wrong directions in mine or a different set of instructions or they were missing. Couldn't tell you...it's been more than a day in which case all memory of mine has been purged. All I do remember is that I did not see anything indicating sealing grease needing to be used. After your first post on it though, I found it on their website. Thanks for passing the info on.

I didn't use any kind of sealing grease on my K&N. The couple times I have been in the air box since has shown not even a bit of dust past the filter. The bottom of the air box has a raised ring that pushes into the rubber on the bottom of the K&N. Nothing is getting past that seal.

Ray
http://www.frontiernet.net/~st1300rider/smile04Bikerwheelie.gif

dduelin

03-24-2007, 09:50 PM

I didn't use any kind of sealing grease on my K&N. The couple times I have been in the air box since has shown not even a bit of dust past the filter. The bottom of the air box has a raised ring that pushes into the rubber on the bottom of the K&N. Nothing is getting past that seal.

Ray
http://www.frontiernet.net/~st1300rider/smile04Bikerwheelie.gif

That is what is strange about my filter's problem. That ring is impressed into the bottom of the filter except where it warped upwards and lifted away from the bottom of the airbox.

RHM

03-24-2007, 10:29 PM

Hello Dave:

Don't mean to derail the thread just thought I'd say hello after meeting you at the gas station at TWO. I was on the 04 ST.

RHM

BigBadblue

03-25-2007, 12:55 AM

At what cost in filtering ability?

There is no free lunch here, bigger holes for air to pass through equal more air flow and less filtering.

UNTMatt

03-25-2007, 08:27 AM

I didn't use any kind of sealing grease on my K&N. The couple times I have been in the air box since has shown not even a bit of dust past the filter. The bottom of the air box has a raised ring that pushes into the rubber on the bottom of the K&N. Nothing is getting past that seal.

Ray
http://www.frontiernet.net/~st1300rider/smile04Bikerwheelie.gif

They have the information on the sealing grease on their website. That being said, When I pulled my box open, it was clean as a whistle with no sealing grease. Since I'm not going to pay or hunt down the over priced K&N sealing grease I applied little Napa Sil-Glyde and it's done. Couldn't hurt anything and the Sil-Glyde is cheap, available, and universal.

dduelin

03-25-2007, 04:07 PM

Hello Dave:

Don't mean to derail the thread just thought I'd say hello after meeting you at the gas station at TWO. I was on the 04 ST.

RHM Hello Robert,

Where did you end up by now? Back in Pensacola or headed west?

Dave

georgeorge

03-25-2007, 04:27 PM

There is no free lunch here, bigger holes for air to pass through equal more air flow and less filtering.

I'm not educatued on air filter elements but it's not necessarily that the K&N has bigger holes to get more air through, but could be that the pleats are deeper therefore providing more surface area of filter media for the air to pass through. In other words even if the same size holes.... more holes means more air. Again, I'm not looking for an arguement, I'm just making a suggestion on how it might be possible without the side effects stated by some that more air means bigger holes.

SteveST1300

03-25-2007, 04:54 PM

Igues I will argue I spoke to a K & N guy at Americade last year I think the K7N filters the same size or smaller than stock. In any case I have switched. K & N has been around a long time and I don't think there will be any side effects from using it, except a 6-7 HP increase. I can live with that.:03biker:

BigBadblue

03-25-2007, 10:17 PM

I'm not educatued on air filter elements but it's not necessarily that the K&N has bigger holes to get more air through, but could be that the pleats are deeper therefore providing more surface area of filter media for the air to pass through. In other words even if the same size holes.... more holes means more air. Again, I'm not looking for an arguement, I'm just making a suggestion on how it might be possible without the side effects stated by some that more air means bigger holes.

Not that the extra junk that the K&N lets through will do any more appreciable damage for the first owner, or even for the second owner, but in a forum where guys go anal over what oil (dino vs. syn) to use and when to switch to synthetic from dino and then what syn is the best and then they go and throw all that thought away by knowingly letting extra contamination into their engine just to gain a few hp is what I find interesting. I am not trying to start a argument, Just present the facts, and bigger holes let in more air AND dirt, just don't kid yourself. LOOK at this test.

http://home.stny.rr.com/jbplock/ISO5011/SPICER.htm

nm6r

03-26-2007, 10:03 AM

That is what is strange about my filter's problem. That ring is impressed into the bottom of the filter except where it warped upwards and lifted away from the bottom of the airbox.

That doesn't sound like a problem with the K&N. It sounds like a problem with the installation of the air box not being seated properly. The bottom of the air box will sit flat when properly installed. Likewise the top of the air box uniformly pushes down on the top of the air filter when properly installed.

As far as less filtration or passing more junk, most people simply don't understand different forms of filtration media.

I did clean and oil my K&N this weekend along with all the other maintenance required at 64k miles. I did re-install it with a light coating of grease on the bottom side. I figured it couldn't hurt.

Ray
http://www.frontiernet.net/~st1300rider/smile04Bikerwheelie.gif

chiller

03-28-2007, 07:06 AM

i bought the KN filter because I didn't want to continually spring for replacement OE filters...

the graph isn't worth a whole lot in my opinion, i had my bike dyno'ed a while back for a baseline, i popped in the KN and it made a gain of 0.7HP and about 0.8ft.lbs torque, sure its an increase, is it a huge increase? no...my thoughts:

is it worth it to buy? that's up to everyone to decide for themselves but long term savings on buying filters could add up to quite a bit...

am i happy with it? relatively yes, I've had them in all my bikes and cars for a while, although recent incident where a friend used a BMC filter, his bike actually was sucking in sand during all our riding, his airbox had sand all over it, so with that in mind I'm not sure anymore if I should be going aftermarket or back to OE filters for fitment and reduction of ONLY less then 1HP...

robert kreider

03-29-2007, 11:12 PM

I have sent three requests to K&N engineering asking if they recommend sealing grease when using their filter ha-1302. They will not answer my request or commit to a yes or a no. I will use it anyway, and I agree for the price of their unit it should be included. I run a K&N, staintunes, and Toms fpr on an 05 which gives a noticeable improvement in performance and a gain of 3 mpg over a span of 800 miles.

RHM

03-30-2007, 04:31 PM

Hello Robert,

Where did you end up by now? Back in Pensacola or headed west?

Dave

Hello Dave:

I just got back from New Orleans. I didn't take my bike due to all the crime in the city. They have about 300 National Guard troops in the city and around 100 extra LHP in town just to quell the violence taking place. I took my truck.

I am going to be in my office all next week then leave around 4/9 to head to Vicksburg then I am going to hop on the Natchez Trace Parkway to Tupelo then head back to Pensacola. I will probably hang around a few days then set off for the Keys depending on whether or not spring break is over (I hope it is).

If you ever head west towards Pensacola be sure to drop me a PM so we can get together.

Oh, you convinced me to get a GPS, I ordered the Zumo 550 and it should arrive next week.

Regards,

Robert

skidlid1300

03-30-2007, 06:43 PM

I've had K&N filters in all my bikes for years. They all have worked just fine. Looks like that warped one was just put in crooked, or the thing was crushed by someone before the install, but decided to put it in anyway. I agree, trash it, and get a new one. As for the sealing grease issue, mine didn't come with any instructions that said anything about sealing grease. Mine just said that it came pre-oiled, just put it in, and just like an oil filter, lube a little filter oil on the seal, and off you go. I have checked them, clean them, apply new filter oil since, and no problem.

kf4mtw

04-04-2007, 08:06 AM

O.K., now I know this has been talked about before but I don't believe there was any evidence of the difference. Well I just found this article (http://www.motorcycledaily.com/21september04_kandnfilter.htm).

The short report is the K&N made more HP at the rear wheels.

http://www.motorcycledaily.com/092104_dyno.jpg

I think the possability exhists this Dyno Chart from K&N Could be produced in such a way to convince you to buy one...:crackup Quite a Substancial gain in HP. I'd say. 1-2 would be a lot more believeably to me. Will do, will dyno, will post results soon.:D