Group Rides, Safety Vs.Thrill Factor

[glossblk06]

I know that I will probably receive a ton of flack about this topic, but it is important to me.

It wasn't too long ago that I was on a group ride up in Ojai. It was before my ST. We were a small group of six riders, all but one were on Harleys. (yes, I used to be a member of the dark side).

I was following a close friend as we headed up 33. I was fifth in position of the group. We were riding a bit hot (for Harleys anyway). I had no objection to our rate of speed, and in fact, I was contemplating the idea of passing my friend. Just about 4.0 miles up past the Deer Lodge I watched in horror as my friend didn't make a left twisty. Taking the turn too wide, he went into the soft shoulder, continued until he hit the dirt berm, and I watched his bike (Fatboy) and him fly into the air going head over heels (about 270 degrees) and vanishing into the ravine below. He is 6'2" and about 280lbs. He broke a scapula, a lumbar vertebral body, and three ribs. Today he is OK, having had a good recovery considering his trauma.

I could drone on and on about the specifics & details about that day, but I won't.

My point to all of this is that he was riding too hot for his abilities trying to keep in position with the group. He should of just backed off, but he chose not to. His mistake. We are the only persons in control of the operation of our motorcycles. Sure, there are other surprise factors such as animals in the road and cage drivers turning in front of us. But in general, we control our machines using our own judgement. Key point.

A while back I was rehashing this accident in my mind and I made a post on some other ST topic. I remarked about the speed of ST group rides that I have attended. I commented that the group leaders rode too fast and took unnecessary chances. I wish to apologize to those group leaders for my comments. It is not my business to comment on what other riders do. If I offended anyone (Tim, Richard, Jeff), I'm sorry. Please accept my apology.

I believe Ray commented to my post stating that group rides are not for everyone and that smaller & familiar groups are better. I see his point and agree. For example, if everyone in the group wants to totally ignore the posted speed limits and blast by all of the scenery, then that is fine. In contrast, if all the riders want to take it easy and make multiple stops for photography, that is also fine. I kind of hold a middle-of-the-road ideal to these two extremes.

I thrououghly enjoyed every single ST group ride I have been on. I've met great people and learned great roads. I would be honored to continue attending these rides. In a recent ride report from Richard, he commented that his last group ride broke into two separate groups for portions of the ride. One small group for those who want to do some knee dragging, and the other group for those who want to take it easy. Both groups meeting at designated locations for check points, lunch, or whatever. I believe this is a wonderful idea.

So, in conclusion. For those group leaders who care about your groups, I salute you for allowing all types of riders the chance to experience the camaraderie of our motorcycle family. Thank you. And if you are wondering why I bring this topic up today... well, I saw a Harley w/ passenger almost eat the big one today, one turn from the Rock Store. It brought back some visions in my head. Made me THINK SAFETY. :bow1:

[MLRickards]

I know that I will probably receive a ton of flak about this topic, but it is important to me.

We are the only persons in control of the operation of our motorcycles.

we control our machines using our own judgement.

It is not my business to comment on what other riders do.

I believe Ray commented to my post that group rides are not for everyone and that smaller & familiar groups are better. I see his point and agree.

I thrououghly enjoyed every single ST group ride I have been on. I've met great people and learned great roads. I would be honored to continue attending these rides. In a recent ride report from Richard, he commented that his last group ride broke into two separate groups for portions of the ride. One small group for those who want to do some knee dragging, and the other group for those who want to take it easy. Both groups meeting at designated locations for check points, lunch, or whatever. I believe this is a wonderful idea.

So, in conclusion. For those group leaders who care about your groups, I salute you for allowing all types of riders the chance to experience the camaraderie of our motorcycle family. Thank you. :

Hard to imagine anybody giving you flack about your comments. I find the dynamics of group rides interesting as well. The best ones I've been on did the "two group" method, which I like because I tend to be in the more aggressive group and I would never want to think others were risking being outside their comfort zone just to "keep up".

I grew up riding with my dad and we would ride in really tight formation (hindsight...probably not the smartest thing we could have done). It was a blast. Truth be told, I actually like to be #2 in the formation so I can play "keep up" myself. I love the chase way more than the lead :) But, it's either gotten more dangerous out there or I've gotten smarter and more safety conscious--'cause I don't seem to be in situations where I get to ride like that anymore. My dad has dementia and can't drive anymore so I lost my "wingman".

For those heading to TexSTOC...consider this my application to ride in the faster group! :)

[EagleSix]

Thanks gloss for your post and sharing with us. I agree….

.

[Mellow]

This is a very valid concern for all of us.

It's pretty much impossible to go on a group ride where 99% of the time you've never ridden with those in the group.

It's easy to say the leader of the group should keep things slow but that's subjective to what HE considers a managable pace.

It is my opinion that it's up to each individual to decide if the pace is too fast for them and break off or let the leader, or anyone else, know they'd prefer some thing just a bit less aggressive... Same goes if you are wanting something more aggressive as you'll tend to get bored if it's too slow for you and maybe not pay as much attention.

I try to say this on every group ride... 'You are riding your own ride' and 'there's no such thing as a group ride'... Bottom line, whether there's someone in front or behind you, you are still responsible for your actions. If you don't like the 'feeling' of that ride... do your own. Don't let your ego get the better of you. I have no problem saying 'you guys are too fast for me, I'm gonna let you go ahead and I'll see you at the campground/hotel'.

I'm not crazy about group rides - the one we did in Arkansas this weekend but bygdawg leading was a good pace but probably aggressive for many... I typically like a 2 or 3 rider group myself unless I can stay at the back. We had CBs so we could communicate and keep the group together.

Thanks for bringing this up, it's an important issue and one of the few things WE as riders can address directly.

[Bones]

'You are riding your own ride' and 'there's no such thing as a group ride'.

That's it in a nutshell, Joe. The Northeast Region folks have been especially open about this in the STOC events we attend, and Carl (the Cardinal) has waxed poetic in his posts about the group dynamic.

[GRN]

gloss,

Group rides, if managed properly, can be what every individual rider wants them to be. Fro NNESTOC, we have broken the group by to themes... stop and smell the roses, and round out the flat spots. We have about 20 bikes coming for this ride, some folks coming to enjoy fall in New England, some folks coming to enjoy the roads, and a few that have ridden with me have even fattered me with enthusiasm for my very spirited lead style.

I ride aggressively, plain and simple... RULE #1 when I lead is RIDE YOUR OWN RIDE... my pace is a great opportunity for most folks to spread out a little and take on the challenges of sport riding in their own space and time, and no bike is ever left behind... it's not a race, just an opportunity to open it up a bit more than they would on their own with the luxury of having someone on lead who's willing to take a greater degree of risk so that those riding with that leader have less as long as the leader does their job and communicates well. I really like riding in groups with Bones on my wing because we understand each others ride very well and have very similar communication cues/style. This gives the third bike and behind immediate feedback from Bones as to what I'm reacting to on lead... giving extended time and opportunity to make adjustments. If any drives off a cliff following me, it was because of their own lack of judgement, period. Group riding in this respect can be even safer than an individual ride... lead bike takes the risk for the group, and if communicated back well, the rest of the groups risk is signifivcantly reduced.

I'm glad your perspective on it has changed man... like everything in this life, there are things that work for us and things that don't... things that are done well and things that aren't... bottom line is the choices WE make.

[blueSTormer]

+1 on GRN's comments. He was my lead on a recent NNESTOC pre-ride, and I felt very comfortable riding faster than I usually do knowing that the next corner was safe at that speed. But I also recognized the increased risk of the lead position, and I thank him for doing that.
Another important point is that we were all solo. If you want to burn your own a**, then it's up to you. But with a pillion, speeds need to come down because you are responsible for them. That is why I'm in the "stop and smell the roses" group for NNESTOC. My wife Mary will be with me, and I would never forgive myself..... well, you know.
So, it is possible to have your cake and eat it too, only on different days!

[chiller]

hmm....i lead ALOT of rides for my local board and i preach the 'ride your own ride' philosophy, tho when i'm leading, i like to lead from the back...sounds funny but what i mean by that is that i'll usually lead the group to a set of twisties and wave everyone past, everyone meets me at the stop sign at the end of the road, go as fast as you want or as slow as you want i'll bring up the rear (i'll usually give every 2-3 mins lead time in case i catch up to the slower riders)...when we're just going from set of twisties to the next set i'll USUALLY (based on the group of guys and skill level) USUALLY lead the ride in a more 'traditional' manner, staying above the limit but just below what leo's would NORMALLY pull you over for...then wave everyone past once the next set of curves comes up...

this has been fairly successful in the last bunch of years i've been leading rides

[STumpy]

I agree with Joe. I am not a fan of group riding in general. I have been on long group rides (12 or more for 500 miles) and they were not one of my more memorable experiences.

You spend all your time trying to maintain the proper spacing and speed, and miss the purpose of the ride. If the leader is inconsistent, it is a headache trying to keep everyone in line.

If we participate in a charitable poker run, a few of us try to be the first out, so we dont get caught up in a huge group.

I like ride with about 3 to 5 riders -max. If I am goin with a group, I usually prefer to be the sweeper. This way I can enjoy the ride at my own pace, and let the agressive riders have their fun as well. We all know each other's capabilities, and we each enjoy the ride.

[GRN]

...sounds funny but what i mean by that is that i'll usually lead the group to a set of twisties and wave everyone past, everyone meets me at the stop sign at the end of the road, go as fast as you want or as slow as you want i'll bring up the rear (i'll usually give every 2-3 mins lead time in case i catch up to the slower riders)...when we're just going from set of twisties to the next set i'll USUALLY (based on the group of guys and skill level) USUALLY lead the ride in a more 'traditional' manner, staying above the limit but just below what leo's would NORMALLY pull you over for...then wave everyone past once the next set of curves comes up...


I can't say that I've ever been on a ride (or anything else in life) where a leader has done so by following... if it works for you and those who, er, follow you, it's all good man.

[HankSTer]

Coincidentally, I just added to Terry's thread about "your crashes", yup, happned in a group ride.

I really believe they are possibly the most dangerous thing you can do, that is ride with others that you dont know their skill level, maybe (probably) are all excited about proving how macho and fast they are, etc etc.

I'm very lucky I didnt kill myself on some of the first group rides I was on. The leaders were really riding crazy fast on roads they shouldn't have, and I was bone headed enough to try and keep up with them.

Anyone else ever heard of "the pace?". I dont know that it's reprintable material, but if you search google for: Nick Ienatsch thepace, should be able to find it. Very much worth the read.

[GRN]

I agree with Joe. I am not a fan of group riding in general. I have been on long group rides (12 or more for 500 miles) and they were not one of my more memorable experiences.

You spend all your time trying to maintain the proper spacing and speed, and miss the purpose of the ride. If the leader is inconsistent, it is a headache trying to keep everyone in line.

If we participate in a charitable poker run, a few of us try to be the first out, so we dont get caught up in a huge group.

I like ride with about 3 to 5 riders -max. If I am goin with a group, I usually prefer to be the sweeper. This way I can enjoy the ride at my own pace, and let the agressive riders have their fun as well. We all know each other's capabilities, and we each enjoy the ride.

We are breaking 20 bikes into 4 groups, scenic and sporting rides. 12 bikes on the scenic ride will be 2 groups of 6 on the same route with a 5 min offset. Sporting group will be broken into 2 groups of 4 with a 5 min offset.

The quality of a group ride will depend upon the similarity of the riders/equipment, how well it's planned, and how well that plan is lead. If it's planned poorly and not led well it can be a lot less than fun for many involved, and dangerous.

All of the guys from here that I have ridden with in the northeast jive really well together. I have only gotten into the organized group ride thing in the past few years and find doing it with folks who have similar equipment, better than average skills, and heads up attitudes on safety to be a real pleasure.

Previous experiences in unorganized groups with mixed equipment and skills with less than complete (or no) leadership are what drove me to ride solo for many years befor I revisited the group thing with this crew... no regrets on either account. I believe choosing to ride with a "target group" of similar riders makes a huge difference in what the group ride experience can be.

[Phillyrube]

Every year in Norfolk area we have a ride called "Rumble Through the Tunnels" that benefits the Navy charities, and has about 2000-3000 riders. It really gets hairy at times. I have had guys come up to me ask not to tailgate them, since his wife just got her license and is not real keen on group riding.

Group rides are not the place to learn to ride. Anyways, I managed to go around her, and later heard she dumped trying to break to avoid the crowd. The big groups are pretty hairy, since you get so many bunched up and such. I ride with one guy who has been riding about as long as me, and I can depend on him being in the same place on my right and 2 lengths or so back.

[chiller]

I can't say that I've ever been on a ride (or anything else in life) where a leader has done so by following... if it works for you and those who, er, follow you, it's all good man.
well only in the twsities...alot of my riding group consists of litrebike SS bikes...so they want to run the twisties at 120+mph alot of the time, that's fine they can if they want, some like to run only 20mph over the limit....i could push my bike to lead the SS bikes at speed, i don't normally tho i have and didn't find a problem with it but is easier to let them meet me and the slower group at the stop signs...it actually works out great...but only if its on a stop sign...

[Kempo-STer]

The quality of a group ride will depend upon the similarity of the riders/equipment, how well it's planned, and how well that plan is lead. If it's planned poorly and not led well it can be a lot less than fun for many involved, and dangerous.

All of the guys from here that I have ridden with in the northeast jive really well together. I have only gotten into the organized group ride thing in the past few years and find doing it with folks who have similar equipment, better than average skills, and heads up attitudes on safety to be a real pleasure.


Agree here with Greg and Bones..I have shared plenty of pavement with both of them.

One additional benefit of riding in a group with multiple riders..if you ride with the same group many times, you understand their tendencie, skills, pace.

A couple of examples being last year riding with Greg for the 3rd time liast year...
I got to know when he was going to pour it on...or make a pass...(I would tighten up before the passing situation)

..or another I can think of was he hit the brakes really hard for no apparent reason..
I knew Greg better than to for him to throw the binders on for nothing..So i followd suit quickly and sure enough around the corner was a radar toting LEO..
Greg's radar detector saved us both a ticket.

Group dynamics work with riders that you know or are like-mided and equipped.

These big rally's (hundreds of bikes) etc...you don't have that, therefore I do not go because there is always one butthead...

[Highrider]

Similar situation happened to our group a couple years back while riding to the Honda Hoot. A fairly new rider was following me on my ST, he was on a new GW and rode wide on a left hander. All I heard was a big crash and in my rear view mirror saw red Gold Wing parts all over the road. Apparently he went off the pavement and tried to get back on, his footpeg dug into the side of the asphalt and flipped the bike, with him under it. Fortunately resulted only a banged up shoulder and about $3000 damage to the bike.
It all boils down to riding with people you are familar with and know their level of experience. A lot of bad things can happen on a long trip, I know from recent experience. I am not opposed to riding in a group, but in the future, I will not ride with people I am not familiar with their level of experience.

[gene]

When riding with new people I like staying in the rear until you get some miles in and watch thier style and riding habits since alot of the time I'm 2-up it is the safest thing for us to do.

[earlfo]

I like to ride in groups, but no more than 5. 5 is even pushing it for me. I have two friends I ride with mostly, and we know each others tendancies. There are two others that join us on occassion and I love to have them along, but it changes the dynamic of the group. One is aggressive on the twisties the other tends to fall behind. We just have a rule that we wait at the next stop sign for everyone to catch up then keep going. It works for us.

Whenever the group adds an unknown, I find that I do not enjoy the ride as much. I know what to expect from those four other guys I ride with, and get nervous with someone new.

I would hate to be in one of those massive group rides...

[timmybob4]

When riding with new people I like staying in the rear until you get some miles in and watch thier style and riding habits since alot of the time I'm 2-up it is the safest thing for us to do.

I agree and will go one step further. I was bringing up the rear and had familiarized myself with the riding styles of those in front of me. However I was still keeping a longer than "normal" space between myself and the next to last rider. It's a good thing I did. Though he was a good rider (as far as riding goes) he had no regard for the condition of his tires. He had a blow out at 60 MPH which caused him to high side almost immediately. Turned out his rear tire was through to the cords and when it blew, it blew big time. The bike fishtailed, then the rim dug into the asphalt and down he went. I did not have to panic stop due to the cushion I had been allowing. But unfortunately I did have a ring side seat for the show.

He's okay, but his BMW is toast. Three broken ribs, punctured lung, broken collar bone. His helmet probably saved his life and his leather jacket prevented road rash to his upper body. (Has me thinking about Bohn (sp?)body armor, though.)

Let's be careful out there, particularly when riding with others.

[Bones]

The big groups are pretty hairy, since you get so many bunched up and such.

I did a big group ride. Once. It was quickly apparent to me that I could not predict what anyone around me was going to do. I baled out part way through, pointed my bike away from the group route, and had a great rest of the day.

[RibsST1300]

I'm in SCRC-and they have some pretty decent guidelines for group rides. Theirs are generally a lot tamer paces..here's some of what we did..on cruisers, not sport tourers-But lots of this can be adapted to sport tourers too!

Slow-new riders immediately behind the leader-they actually pace the group ride, no one gets left behind. Staggered format-1-2 second rule. No passing or overly aggressive riding. Ride your ride, bail out if you can't keep up or want to exceed the groups speed. We had a half dozen hand signals to communicate-and used them. More than 10-15 bikes-break into 2 groups or more-keep groups size at 10-12 bikes max.

[sparkinator]

I rode with Mellow the other day at Natstoc and appreciated that he kept a good distance behind while working the twisties. I think too many guys let their ego get the better of them and think they aren't doing anything if not 'pushing' the guy in front. If I'm in the middle of the pack, and a guy behind me is trying to "ride up my tailpipe," I usually let him by and let him bother the guy in front of me. That kind of riding when with a group of guys you've never riden with before isn't aggresive, to me it's stupid. If you are eating up the guy in front, what's he supposed to do, eat up the guy in front of him? And what happens when someone checks up in a curve?

I almost lost it a month or so ago on a group ride. We rode a 'fairly tight' group while slabbing it to the twisties. No problem with that. Once there, I let the guy in front pull descent gap and was assuming the guy behind me would do the same, but that didn't happen. I could pull away from the guy behind me in the curves, but he would pull up tight on my butt in the straights. It got to the point where I was spending about as much time looking for where he was in my mirrors as I was watching the road.

That's my only hang-up with group rides. Other than that, I love 'em.

[sherob]

I've been lucky... all of my group rides have been with fellow ST'ers that have communicated well, the group was relaxed, and if you dropped back... you kept an eye for them or pulled over and waited. ;) No pressure, just great riding :)

My ride to and around WeSTOC was perfect... hang back and take in the scenery... good pace... just great :)

[huxtablejones]

All this stuff about group rides made me realize - the most dangerous guy on the road is the one who thinks he has to keep up or be laughed at.

It's not the leader's fault for going too fast. We are in control of our own throttles. It's not the tailgater's fault for following too close when we could wave him by. Mary and I went on a group ride with about 15 bikes a few weeks ago - the leaders made it plain that they would wait at the next turn point for the slower riders. They split the group into two distinct groups - go fast and flower sniffers. It went very well - everybody rode at their own pace, we all had fun. The option always exists to make a "wrong turn" and leave a group if it's that bad.

We are all in control of our own throttles.

We are all in control of our own throttles.

;)

[EagleSix]

Coincidentally, I just added to Terry's thread about "your crashes", yup, happned in a group ride.

I really believe they are possibly the most dangerous thing you can do, that is ride with others that you dont know their skill level, maybe (probably) are all excited about proving how macho and fast they are, etc etc.

I'm very lucky I didnt kill myself on some of the first group rides I was on. The leaders were really riding crazy fast on roads they shouldn't have, and I was bone headed enough to try and keep up with them.

Anyone else ever heard of "the pace?". I dont know that it's reprintable material, but if you search google for: Nick Ienatsch thepace, should be able to find it. Very much worth the read.

...here is a link to "The Pace": http://www.ridehsta.com/html/safety.htm

As I posted on another forum: I think the “The Pace” document has some value, but overall is flawed, that is for some of us, and me in particular. The Pace isn’t about “your ride”, because it is presented as the only true safe way to street ride. That doesn’t make it “my ride”, or “your ride”, it makes it the ride of the person subscribing to it and becomes the same ride as everyone else taking that subscription.

If you accelerate out of a turn and brake for the next turn, it doesn’t mean you are racing on the street. If you use hand brake, as opposed to engine brake it doesn’t mean you are going to be uncontrolled in the turns, any more than it means you are racing on the street.

If you are hanging off to a certain degree it doesn’t mean you are racing and to many including most of the police it can be indiscernible unless you are hanging off like Rossi. Yet if you shift your body weight, more so your upper torso rather than your butt and don’t put your knee way out, you gain far more control of your bike and yet your posture is not alarming to that “race track look”.

Because I usually approach turns at speed requiring I bleed of with brakes before entering the turns, it doesn’t mean I have to, nor that I always do. But if I need to make an emergency stop with hard brakes, it’s not unexpected, it’s not unpracticed, and it’s within my skill level, because I constantly practice it.

If I open up the throttle it doesn’t mean I have to roll it to the stop or hold it there until I hit the rev limiter. If you roll on the throttle more than I want, I don’t have to keep “The Pace”, I can limit my speed to “my ride”. If your not going as fast as I would like to go, being passed doesn’t mean I am racing, it could be as simple as, I’m going faster….that’s all.

If you like “The Pace”, I am happy for you, because you found your limits and I assume you are enjoying your ride….after all, I think that’s what it’s all about, enjoying the ride. However, “my ride”, the pace I use is determined by a lot more conditions than an article by a bike rag author. My health, how I feel today at this moment, condition of my bike and tires, the road condition, weather, known or unknown road, and probably a thousand other elements which will dictate “the pace” I use at any given time during a ride.

I like the general attitude of the article and I’m sure those reading it will also form their own opinions based on their experience and skill levels, even instructors!

----------------------------------------

Hank, no argument with your post or your opinions. I understand your view point and respect your ride.

I don't think group rides are inherently dangerous no more than a motorcycle we all ride. How the group ride is conducted, like how we ride as individuals however does effect the safety and outcome of a ride.

Sometimes I lead a group, but the majority of the time I follow. Probably comes from my days of flying with a group of civilians doing performance maneuvers. Kind of like civilian dog fighting. A superior leader can escape, but the challenge is to prevent a leader an opportunity to escape by pulling a tighter turn, steeper dive or higher rate climb.

Of course riding wing with a like same capable rider who you know and trust is favored. Unfortunately we can't start out to only ride in a group with those you know, as this is impossible. If we want to ride in a group, as in 2 or more, at the start no one knows each other. The only way to get to know the other rider is to ride with them. Extra distance and caution is used as we watch new riders in the group to make a decision as do they fit. But if we all never ride with unknown riders, new riders never have an opportunity to join up. For those who want to ride solo or those who never want to ride with riders except those they already know, that's fine, good choice for conducting "your ride". Fortunately for new motorcycle enthusiast who wish to try the group ride thing there are other riders willing to share.

.

[sport_tourer]

My point to all of this is that he was riding too hot for his abilities trying to keep in position with the group. He should of just backed off, but he chose not to. His mistake.

You said it all! Nothing else to add, but I will.............

After 33 years or street riding, I can honestly say I have met and ridden with only 3 other riders who ride in manners (i.e., speed on straights, speed on turns, when to pass on 2x yellow, rest period stops, overall distance for the day, etc.) similar to my own. Everyone else I have ridden with just doesnt mesh with my "style"...they do something which I dont do or like (i.e., too fast down straights, too slow in turns, need to stop every hour, etc.). I find that amazing, but its true...hardest thing you will do in this "sport" IMO is fine someone who meshes 100% with your riding style. Just my opinion. BTW, one of the three was a childhood friend who I rode with from age 12 to about 35, but I dont ride with him anymore. The second I have been riding with for about 3 years and I finally talked him into a 2006 ST1300 but he doesnt partake on the forum, and the third is a BMW owner who I ride with occassionally. I did also just meet a guy on an FJR1300 who I think will join my group of riding buddies.


As far as group rides, the groups I ride in usually consist of a total of 3 to 8 bikes. Most of us know the relative abilities of each other (or you should be able to deduce that in the first 15 minutes of the ride). When we first meet for the ride, the instructions are as follows to everyone in the group:

1. RIDE YOUR OWN RIDE.
2. Stop and wait at all stop signs.
3. Stop and wait at all turns and things that "look" like turns off the main road (i.e., a Y in the road, a bear right, a bear left, etc.).
4. If you cant see the guy behind you, stop or slow down until you can see him again.
5. Dont scare anyone in the group with your actions (i.e, some people dont like being passed or being followed by closely while others couldnt care...if you dont know the person of cant figure him out with 100% certainty, play it safe).
6. RIDE YOUR OWN RIDE.

My tendencies are to ride relatively fast to fast. I dont go balls out down straights, but I do ride the turns and often speed up for turns. I rarely ride the speed limit and can usually be found at least 10-15 mph over any posted limit except in residential areas, small towns and school zones. In nice twisty road sections, if I ever get pulled over I will generally lose my license.

I personally dont care if someone decides to pass me on one wheel at 70 mph or not, I ride my own ride. If someone's faster than me, and I feel like I am pushing my limits to stay with them or if I am simply not in the mood at that time, I back off to my comfort area.

If someone's got too much testosterone and feels like they have to keep up with the group and is riding beyond their abilities, usually someone in the group will say something to the person at the next stop.

Bottom line.... "a man has got to know his limitations".

[nm6r]

The most dangerous aspect that I have found with group riding is passing cages.

Here's the scenario: There is a long straight and time for 3 bikes to easily pass the cage. The first bike passes and doesn't leave room for the next bike let alone the one after. The first rider either slowed down after passing or didn't take the right track leaving at least one bike having to either squeeze in or drop back behind the cage which might not have been possible due to the third bike passing as well.

Another similar problem is a rider acting like he's going to pass and then hesitate.

Ray
http://www.frontiernet.net/~st1300rider/smile04Bikerwheelie.gif

[sport_tourer]

My post above was before I read the comments to the orginal post.

...here is a link to "The Pace": http://www.ridehsta.com/html/safety.htm

If you are hanging off to a certain degree it doesn’t mean you are racing and to many including most of the police it can be indiscernible unless you are hanging off like Rossi.

I got a friend who I dont ride with very often, who in all honesty probably hangs off like Rossi going into his driveway. He knows the speeds we travel at usually do not require it, but he hangs off to get his "aerobic workout" as he calls it. Funny as hell to watch.

[HankSTer]

...here is a link to "The Pace": http://www.ridehsta.com/html/safety.htm

As I posted on another forum: I think the “The Pace” document has some value, but overall is flawed, that is for some of us, and me in

snip snip

Fortunately for new motorcycle enthusiast who wish to try the group ride thing there are other riders willing to share.

.

George,
I dont disagree with any of your comments. Sometimes the context of what we are trying to say isn't easily conveyed in a few sentences.

For one, I dont believe "the pace" to be the bible, just that it's a "good read", and worth the time to check it out, and ofcourse make up your own mind to adapt part / all / none as you see fit.

When I say group riding is the most dangerous, I mean it in the context I tried to describe, inexperienced riders trying to keep up with experienced riders due to the macho factor. But ofcourse other group scenarios exist, thankfully.

If I could retry to make the point, it would simply be a warning to riders that are new or dont have a good understanding of cornering, to be very cautious in some group rides, because it's very easy to get carried away with the excitement of the crowd and easily find yourself riding over your skill level.

And I certainly dont profess to have the "answer" for everyone, hope it doesn't come across that way. I know the last time I was at The Gap, my decision to ride sweeper was the right one, 2 of the gixxers crashed 3 times, I just stayed back and scrapped pegs and wore off the chicken strips ;)


Regards,

[BigTom]

I don't generally like group rides. For what ever reason. I don't like to pay so much attention to my place in line. I like to doodle along, then catch up. I'm not so good at watching my exact distance, so I leave a little more. I like to look around, I like to smell the smells, I like to ride in my own little world. It really interferes with my enjoyment to try to hold a spot..

That said, the last group I rode with came from here. I knew several of the riders, knew there were no pure rookies that would do something stupid in front of me. It was fine, pretty relaxed. We all knew the route (roughly), and the highway riding had enough sanity to make the ride pleasant for me. On the twisties, I am slower than most. I hate to slow anybody up, so I start in the back. So long as I know the next way point, works good for me. When we did have a problem, it was handled pretty darn well. No panic, no wasted effort, just do what we could. I liked the experience, with the exception of the crash. Nice to ride with experienced riders, even though I had only ridden with one of them. Predictability is the key for me.

My riding buddy and I thought we had a new partner for occasional riding. Our old standby had sold his bike, moved on to other things. Anyway, the new guy turns out to be a bonehead, and now we have a jackass pestering to ride on a routine basis. He is my neighbor, and I think I am done riding with him. May be some awkward moments in the 'hood:)

It is really nice to be able to post and read thoughts like this with out any fear of acrimony, or upsetting anyone. I really do like this place.

[ligito]

Rules and routes need to be established before leaving on a group ride.

Last year, at Westoc, I discussed the route with the leader on a pie run.
My riding buddy and I got left in the dust, as no one used the road guard principle, to be sure the guy behind knew where they went at stop signs and turns onto different hiways.

We road our own ride and never saw then again, although we went to the same target town.

Common practices were left out. It was not supposed to be a race.
Yeah, that's why I bring up the rear, because I'm not a competitive rider.
I do it for the fun, not for the speed.

[B727AV8R]

Me and the wife used to go on group rides....dont anymore. More trouble than its worth. More than once, the leader, who is usually an MSF instructor, would give a detailed safety brief. Obey traffic laws, etc. Next thing you know, they are leading the group thru town, doing 55 in a 35 zone, and everyone is following. Thats when the two of us would bug out, and go somewere else. Another PITA is, knowing the ST can do close to 300 miles on a tank, and someone shows up with a Sportster with a peanut tank. Everytime you turn around, the group is stopping at a gas station.

[Raven]

For me, group riding isn't so much about the ride as it is about the group. If I want to go for a ride I seldom go with a group.

That said, whenever there are groups of people there is peer pressure in varying degrees (be it groups of motorcyclists, students, hikers, joggers, whatever). Almost every group ride I've ever been on has started with the "ride your own ride speech" but face it, a group ride is never a "ride your own ride" deal no matter how many times we say it. There is a tendency for some people to push themselves a little more than they may be used to simply because of peer pressure, whether subtle or overt, while others find themselves forced to hold back due to that same peer pressure. A group ride is always something of a compromise for everyone involved and that's a key issue.

Peer pressure and failure to compromise are often the points of disaster in group rides. Somewhere in one of the posts someone said that each person is responsible for their own safety and that's true to a point. But, throw a group ride in the mix and we all become responsible for each other and that means compromise. If you're fortunate, the compromise is minimal because the group is balanced as far as equipment and experience but, unfortunately, usually greater compromise is called for because there's usually a range of equipment and experience. It's up to each of us to decide the cost benefit of group riding and decide if we're in it for the group or for the ride. Yeah, sometimes you get lucky and get both but if you're in it for the group, it's not a big deal to ride a little slower or be a little more patient one day out of the month.

Perhaps a better speech at the start of the next group ride would be "ride a thoughtful ride and be responsive to the safety of everyone." :)

Just 2 more cents to throw in - take it or leave it.
Aren't we up to about a dollar now? :p:

[EagleSix]

George,
~snip~snip~

If I could retry to make the point, it would simply be a warning to riders that are new or dont have a good understanding of cornering, to be very cautious in some group rides, because it's very easy to get carried away with the excitement of the crowd and easily find yourself riding over your skill level.

And I certainly dont profess to have the "answer" for everyone, hope it doesn't come across that way. I know the last time I was at The Gap, my decision to ride sweeper was the right one, 2 of the gixxers crashed 3 times, I just stayed back and scrapped pegs and wore off the chicken strips ;)

Regards,

Great point you made Hank….seems there is a natural tendency for some to try and keep up, to hang with the crowd they started with until sometimes the bitter end.

Another side to that was posted by Paul referring to an MSF Instructor leader who lectured the pre-group ride and then goes through town 20 over. A new rider, new to groups, who is impressed by the experience and skills of the leader, wants to follow thinking the group is riding like they should ride. Not having enough experience yet to know when to back off, or maybe just short of the decision they are over their head, they find themselves sitting on the side of the road being visited by a not so friendly patrol officer, or even worse being visited by the local EMT’s, or even worse….

If my math is correct, 1 of the gixxer riders you mention crashed twice!! Slow learner maybe??? Slow learners on fast bikes often makes for learning the hard way!!!


~snip~snip~

My riding buddy and I thought we had a new partner for occasional riding. Our old standby had sold his bike, moved on to other things. Anyway, the new guy turns out to be a bonehead, and now we have a jackass pestering to ride on a routine basis. He is my neighbor, and I think I am done riding with him. May be some awkward moments in the 'hood:)


…you think Tom, maybe a good old fashion, behind the barn one-on-one type of meeting explaining why you don’t want to ride with him anymore may actually help him become a better rider and maybe someday a better group rider? Occasionally I meet someone, if I can get them stopped long enough, will actually listen.

.

[AZST]

Ideal for me is a group of 2 or 3 other ST riders...especially guys that I know.

Last year at WESTOC, I rode mostly solo. Had a great time. This year, I joined up with 3 guys that I have never ridden with and also had a great time. I think our group at WESTOC this year were all like minded riders...what a great time it was.

Some group rides I have been on though, I have some seen some things that have scared the crap out of me.

"Ride your ride"....best advice.

--Bryan
04ST1300A
:04biker:

[EagleSix]

~snip~snip~

Perhaps a better speech at the start of the next group ride would be "ride a thoughtful ride and be responsive to the safety of everyone." :)

Just 2 more cents to throw in - take it or leave it.
Aren't we up to about a dollar now? :p:

I lost count of the 2 cents worth accumulated here, but I think yours is definitely worth more than a buck!

.

[BamaRider]

I think alot of accidents happen in group rides, for actual miles ridden.

I'm primarily a solo rider, but on occassion I ride with my friends.

The guys I ride with, don't use group rides for intramural racing. They are social envents. No one is allowed to pass the rider ahead of him, the leader and tailgunner never change, so we always know who is in those positions. Each turn off is marked by a rider, so you don't feel like you "have to keep up" to know where to turn. The system works well. But not for someone who likes to redline.

[HankSTer]

If my math is correct, 1 of the gixxer riders you mention crashed twice!! Slow learner maybe??? Slow learners on fast bikes often makes for learning the hard way!!!
.

Yer math is very correct George, believe me I could see it coming too! And a quick note on MSF instructors... believe me, that is very much an individual thing. What I mean is their abilities as riders and coaches and all of it.

I'm trying to get them to change the wording of the Handbook so that the turning technique doesnt sound like the process is sequential... slow, look, press and roll. It needs to be slow and look, then press and roll. The problem is that one doesnt know how much to slow if they arent looking thru the curve and judging the radius before they get in the curve, to know how much to slow.

Anyway, thats another story!! lol

Regards,

[hload]

I avoid riding in large groups and pass harley herds as soon as I can

[ST1300 Alicia]

I have decided it's best for me to ride alone. I generally go only 10-15% over the speed limit. If I get Popped I can always go to traffic school and it won't be a very big fine. I never drive or ride in a manner that would cost me my license. I generally ride much like I drive. I've had a Commercial Class One Drivers License for 30 years. I have a GOOD driving record, not PERFECT but GOOD.

I have a friend that I ride with, who has a Sportster and It's not FUN. He rides way to slow and that is not safe. We were riding the other day and a car passed in between us and he was complaining that the B!!!!!! was tailgating him. I said Bob you were doing 45mph in a 65mph Zone, what did you think she was going to do. Come on now, we need to ride with the flow of traffic. It's the closing speed that will get you in more trouble than the actual speed. You are at more of a risk when you are driving OUT OF SYNC with the surrounding traffic.

I really enjoy all of the camaraderie and information on this forum. I have met some really great people. I enjoy meeting for dinner and exchanging information about our bikes. However when I ride, I do so to site see and I love to stop at any distraction.

I am going camping on the Ca. Central Coast on September 21 and will leave from work. I will have just finished a 12.5 hour day at the Hospital and will change clothes at work. I will ride straight through, 3.5 hours. I will then setup camp. There is lots of beautiful country to see on the Ca. Coast. I am really looking forward to the ride and the camping. On the way over I might stop in Los Banos for ICE-CREAM...............and then again I might not.

[STumpy]

I have decided it's best for me to ride alone. I generally go only 10-15% over the speed limit......However when I ride, I do so to site see and I love to stop at any distraction..


We think alike. I love to ride at a nice steady pace. Faster than the speed limit but not crazy fast, and for sure not too slow. BUt most of all I like to ride to site see and really enjoy the scenery etc, and if something looks cool, I like to stop and check it out. :)

[Carl_T]

Reading this most things have already been well said. I'd like to add a guideline or rule we use that has been only lightly suggested in the previous posts. It’s one that I think adds an important level of safety.

We run "in the twisties" (we do handle other types of roads, heavy traffic, and Villages differently) we run twisties single file at 3 or preferably "MORE" seconds behind the rider ahead of us.
This is not to say we don't tighten up to pass when held up, or run staggered on 4 lane roads etc. This is when we are riding on low traffic winding roads.

This practice goes a long way to help significantly reduce some of the common group riding pitfalls.

A longer than normal following distance helps separate a rider from dangerous "group think" moves. Riders get to ride as if they were on their own much more than is possible with closer following distances. They are far less likely to get sucked into a turn too fast by a quicker rider ahead of them at that distance. They are also unlikely to crash into the rider ahead for whatever reason as well, due to the increased reaction time available. Competitive riding is reduced.

Rider's visually feel more as if they are riding on their own yet with friends, rather than trying to stay part of a tight knit fast moving "pack" and the distance makes it much easier to concentrate on your own "stuff".

We don't pass each other mid-ride, and will swap positions at rest stops instead if we find our normal flow being held up too much by the rider in front. In addition the larger distance allows a faster rider who finds themselves initially following a slower one, to play with turns closer to their own pace since they can hang back in the straights, and do their turns faster due to the following cushion.

The wider gap also tends to reduce rubber-banding effects since no one is trying to exactly match pace with people ahead of them.

We tend to run with a leader and sweep, faster riders to the front, easier going to the rear to maximize everyone's fun and ability to go their own pace. As has been said, the rider ahead marks all turn offs for the rider behind so no one gets lost and the group stays at least "loosely" together. Of course this isn't carried to where one person will stop and sight see as we are riding as a group, just a little more spread out than is often done.

These are our 4 main group guidelines. Though there are a number of others you could manage to fit in knowing these 4.

1. Ride your own ride, go your own pace.
2. Follow at 3 or MORE seconds in the twisties.
3. Make sure the rider behind you sees you at turn offs in the route, and that they actually "make" the turn off before moving on.
4. Don’t pass during the ride switch at a rest stop instead.

So far this has served us well and kept the rides an enjoyable thing to engage in.

[mayner]

Hey George!

Nice Picture for your profile. Who took that? ;-)

I hear you about the "problem" of some folks, and I am one of them, that just like to go fast. There's really no place for it in a group ride, unless it's been discussed with everyone prior to the ride. Splitting up is the way to go with meet points along the way.

We just did the Pine Mountain Club ride (12 bikes) this past weekend and that's what we did. Fast folks with fast folks, relaxed folks with relaxed folks, meeting up at designated points. Worked out well.

When I read your post I couldn't help but think about a certain ride out 138 a month or two ago. Yes, there was a casualty, and excessive speed was, at least partially, to blame

That squirrel never knew what hit him! :eek:

As an aside, on the way back from Lockwood Valley Road on 33, not one but two squirrels sacrificed themselves to the Great and Powerful ST.

We did not get these guys on video though. :-(

Concerns noted and I do agree that some of us, and again, I include myself in this group, need to slow the heck down and enjoy the scenery a little more.

I's just so darn fun. :06biker:

[nm6r]

I would like to suggest anyone putting together a ride to state ahead of time if it's going to be a spirited ride or not. It would be a really good idea for anyone wanting to participate in a group ride to ask ahead of time if it's going to be a spirited ride if it's not already stated.

I have been on several group rides with 8-12 bikes where everyone expects a spirited ride and everyone is happy.

Avoid spirited rides if a faster paced ride is not your thing.

Ray
http://www.frontiernet.net/~st1300rider/smile04Bikerwheelie.gif

[Burger]

I don't know if this will be appropriate to group rides in the states because I think you ride much further distances and turn off main routes less frequently, but I regularly go on group rides with my advanced motorcycling group where we cater for all bikes, abilities and speeds etc.

We use the drop off system, which I know has other names, but basically the leader is the leader, the one who knows where we're all going. The only other constant is the last bike otherwise known as tail end charlie. Before the ride sets off, which is typically 20 to 30 bikes, everyone is told who tail end charlie is, and they usually wear something to make them easily identifiable.

The leader sets off and others follow at their own pace in their own time. Bikes between the leader and the tail are free to ride within their own capabilities and to overtake other riders at will, or to ride slower and allow the other bikes to pass. The only rule being you do not overtake the leader. Therefore if the leader is riding at a faster pace than you want to travel, you are under no obligation to keep up with them.

When the leader gets to a turn or change in route, he will indicate to the rider immediately behind him (and wait for them if need be) to stop at a point they will be visible to all other following riders and indicate the direction in which the ride has gone. That person then holds their position until they see tail end charlie coming where they set off again. If they're a fast rider, they'll catch up and overtake to get near the front again, and if not, they may hold their position.

In this way, the entire group can ride at their own ability and pace and even if spread out over a few miles, no one need get lost. Equally, because you know the route will be indicated if there is a turn off the current road, you are under no pressure or obligation to keep visible contact with the bike in front of you.

Regards,

[Carl_T]

Burger,
Sounds over complicated for a group with riders of similar abilities.

HOWEVER, on the other hand, it sounds really useful and practical for groups with widely varying tastes in pace. Have you run into issues with egos and passing?

On the East Coast of the USA there can be a good number of turn offs to a route as well in order to make use of the most winding, enjoyable, and also scenic roads.

[Burger]

Carl,

Even within a group of similar abilities, there will be times that it is perfectly safe for a rider to overtake a slower vehicle but thoroughly dangerous for the following riders to attempt the same manouvre. When riding in twisties (most of the roads in the UK) the next safe overtaking point might not be for a few miles, and then it might only allow one or two more bikes past.

This system removes all pressure to keep visible contact with the rider in front of you. Therefore, you can relax and not feel forced into overtaking at inappropriate times or into riding faster than your comfort level just to 'keep up'.

Certainly there are some riders who like to overtake and ride above the speed limits etc. but as everyone is able to ride at their own pace they are able to do so - usually safely. I have seen some riders who have overtaken badly or pulled other inappropriate manouvres but I think this will be true for all group rides no matter what system is employed. Generally speaking though, because of the lack of pressure to keep up, such organisation usually proves to be extremely safe.

Regards,

[sportT]

Four of us left work at the end of the day. The big Harley with the screaming egale engine just had to be out front. The Triumph was on his tail at about 110 as we decended a straight away into a 30 mph turn. Then it happend, the lefthand turn and inertia took over. The big bike left the roadway, hit the drainage ditch and bucked my friend off about 30 yards from the road. The bike came tumbling after. I saw the whole thing as I was slowing down for the turn. What a sick feeling as I stopped and ran to him. Praise God he is alright, with a slight shoulder problem and he has been off work for almost two months. We were all going too fast. Something about the chase. Of course it boils down to what has been said, you must ride your own ride. I knew I couldn't take that corner that fast and had to slow way down.

[GRN]

I would like to suggest anyone putting together a ride to state ahead of time if it's going to be a spirited ride or not. It would be a really good idea for anyone wanting to participate in a group ride to ask ahead of time if it's going to be a spirited ride if it's not already stated.

I have been on several group rides with 8-12 bikes where everyone expects a spirited ride and everyone is happy.

Avoid spirited rides if a faster paced ride is not your thing.

Ray
http://www.frontiernet.net/%7Est1300rider/smile04Bikerwheelie.gif

Bingo... the reason I split up groups for NNESTOC was to cater to varying interests:
1. Sport ride, longer miles, fewer stops, emphasis on challenging roads and thinner margins... will end up being two groups of 4 bikes on the same route with a 5 min. stagger
2. more relaxed, take in the scenery kinda gig, shorter ride, more stops/photo ops, and two groups of 7-8 riding the same route with a 5 min. stagger.

Good, safe, group riding is all about good planning and heads up leadership. If you're leading a ride and don't like how someone is interacting with the group, stop for a break and have a chat and pull them to the front and watch them, if that doesn't work, stop again and invite them to take the next left and have a nice day... if you can't lead people, don't lead a ride, 'cause you're responsible for other riders safety and it ain't the bikes that cause the problems.

[Clair]

I've never ridden with any of the ST'ers from here. Not many in UT to be honest. I belong to a couple of other web sites and predominately ride with the riders from there (www.beginnerbikers.org to be specific). We tend to not like to ride in larger groups, no more than 4 bikes really, and if we have a new rider with them I will bore them to tears with our "rules". Specifically ... ride your own ride. If I don't know the rider, he/she goes in the middle, behind me if I'm leading. I tell them how we ride staggared,w hen we ride that way, when we go single file. Even if they know all this I state it anyway. Oh, and gear is a must for us, minimum of helmet and hacket, if not ATGATT. no gear, no riding with us. Anyway, I tell them that if I'm going too fast to fall back and ride their own ride. DO NOT try to stay with me. Similarly, if I'm going slower than they can go ... well deal with it, you came to ride with us. Be good, stay back, behave. They can alwlays take off on their own when we stop, ya know?

I was not able to make WESTOC but did think about what I would do if I couldhave attended. I don't know anyone personally on here, never met anyone. I have no idea of your riding styles, ettiquite, and so on. I have no idea of you're what I consider "safe". Simiarly, none of you would know about me. So, how would I have felt going on a ride with y'all? I do konw I would have done my own ride, would have parked myself at the rear of a group, and if need be waved the Tailgunner around me if the group was speedier than me. That's a hard thing to do, to let go of that ego, but it is what we need to do. SUre, should the "Leader" alter the groups pace to encompass all the riders in the group? I can make a strong case for that. But I also make the case that each rider needs to ride his or her own ride regardless of the group. Just know where to meet up later on, and occassionally look for a headlight back there to make sure they're ok.