Big mistake...R1200RT! [Archive] - ST-Owners.com Forums

jbim

09-11-2006, 08:09 PM

dond

09-11-2006, 08:16 PM

I made a big mistake today. I went to a BMW dealership and test rode a R1200RT. I fell in love with the handling. Much nimbler than the ST. You can easily feel the lesser weight. Two quirks: the gear shift is not easily accessible under the engine head. The turn signals on each side and the cancel on the right side need some getting used to. Other than that, I could get used to this bike.

The one huge difference in favor of the ST is the engine, much more smooth (actually the RT is not smooth at all) and the power. No surge on the RT however.

So, here's my question to you guys: what do you think I would miss the most if I traded for an RT (obviously, other than the members of this amazing forum, the best IMHO all hobbies combined)?

Thank you for any feedback.

Cheers
The MONEY I spent on maintenance!:p:

rgatling

09-11-2006, 08:18 PM

I like the RT. I have several BMW-riding friends in the area, and I've been able to do a few short ride comparisons.

I like the torque/HP of the ST. It scoots better than the RT off the line and in passing situations.
I think the handling is comparable, maybe a slight edge to the RT. A rider can get VERY aggressive with a ST if they are so inclined.
I like the price of the ST relative to the RT. Same goes for maintenance.
I like the looks of the RT. I'm not that thrilled with the ST's look.

In the end, it's all about what makes you happy. Best of luck, whatever you decide ;)

earlfo

09-11-2006, 08:19 PM

I have heard really good things about that bike. My last 2 bikes were BMW's, but the four cylinder ones.

What you will miss the most is not having to take your bike to the dealer for those maintenance intervals. BMW's can be expensive to own compared to a Honda.

Other than that, maybe the acceleration of the Honda. This v-4 is a great engine!:)

Why not have both? Bamarider does...

hojo in sc

09-11-2006, 08:39 PM

Be sure and ask Chris about the maintance cost!

blueisbeST04

09-11-2006, 08:42 PM

I ran into an RT rider on my recent cross country trip. He was riding with his wife, and they both said they were going to have to get a new seat, that the stock seat was just not going to work out. While that is not uncommon, it is something to be aware of.

jdpfms

09-11-2006, 08:49 PM

hehe, I haven't made the mistake of riding the RT yet. I am afraid that I'd find the ergonomics better since it is a bit more upright and the ST is hard for me to get quite like I'd like it (as in JUST RIGHT). I perceive the ST will be more reliable though, and that is a big factor. I would only get an 07 RTif it was me since I don't want the servo assist. I am not willing to pay for maintenance on a BMW unless I can do most of it myself, so I'd have to see about that too. Price is the main kicker since I got a great deal on a used 04 ABS ST that seems to feel like new to me and know I'd have to put in at least $8-9000 more to get the RT. All I perceive I'd get out of it would be a newer bike, more insurance cost, possibly more maintenance and expense, maybe better ergonomics, not as good engine. Decisions, Decisions.

JDP

vintagemxr

09-11-2006, 10:22 PM

I test rode the RT before buying my ST1300. I liked the RT better but I didn't like it $5,000 better which was the OTD difference in price. I've bought a bunch of farkles for the ST to make it just the way I want it and I still have not burned through that $5k difference.

The RT is a sweet bike though, no doubt about it, and certainly has the edge on the ST when it comes to weight and handling.

distancerider

09-11-2006, 10:36 PM

treat yourself...own them both...bamarider does

hload

09-12-2006, 12:03 AM

Look around and see how few dealers there are out there. I've owned 5 BMW's both airhead and oilhead boxers - all great bikes!

Lack of dealers is why I switched

tdeboeser

09-12-2006, 06:36 AM

tccox

09-12-2006, 07:00 AM

From owning several BMWs and having had a Honda dealer just do a major maint on my ST I'd say maintenance costs are roughly the same. You have the dealer do the work and its gonna be expensive, Honda or BMW.

You trade in and its gonna cost you about $10,000 out of pocket. Guess the question is did you like the RT than much ????

UNTMatt

09-12-2006, 07:06 AM

A friend of mine test rode the ST then the RT within a week of each other this past spring. After riding the RT, his comments were very negative on the engine and shifting of the RT. The RT seemed much more 'viby' than the ST, as well. The maintanence on the BMW's is too high for my pocketbook for a 18+k bike.

But if it fits you, then it's the right bike for you and the ST may be the wrong bike. Get what fits you.

patentcad

09-12-2006, 07:12 AM

As for the power surge on the ST - it was a bit harsh when the bike was new to me (and I was new to motorcycling, the ST was my first motorcycle) - but after 2.5 years I've learned how to feather the clutch to eliminate it completely. I guess that falls into the 'every bike has its quirks' dept, like every other complex gizmo.

Two thoughts on a new BMW:

• They do NOT hold their value in the first 2-3 years. Not like an ST. If you're that enamored with the RT, give it a season and a half and buy one used for 40% off the price of a new one. A friend of mine bought a 2001 BMW sport touring bike less than two years old for HALF of MSRP with about 8K miles on the clock.

• I'd agree on the motor. Nothing beats the ST motor, particularly those Bimmer engines.

• BMW's ARE usually pricier to maintain. Even if they're not (and all indications from all sources are that they really are) the closest BMW authorized dealer to me is 50-60 miles distant. BMW motorcycle dealerships aren't exactly all over the place. The local Honda place is only about 22 miles away - and there are a couple more closer than that BMW store.

So it's a trade off. Can you make the case for a BMW? Sure. If you're really a motorcycle nut - more nutty than I am - for sure. That's how into cycling (bicycles) I am. But motorcycles - I wanted to own something that would be easy to own, and the ST fits that bill perfectly so far.

It's ALWAYS trade offs. In everything. Good luck with any decision.

But the best on-line motorcycle community may be right here. And in keeping with that I hope you'll stick around even if you go over to the Dunkel Seite (Dark Side in German).

Kempo-STer

09-12-2006, 07:34 AM

My Best Friend has an 05 RT and I an 05 ST...
We've switched a couple of times...

Its a beautiful well put together motorcycle. They both have the strong sides. We STers usually insert our biases because of obviously where our home is..
The same way BMW's fans will do as well..

To me its not that much slower than the ST..Not by much..The engine displacement is smaller however the much lighter weight makes up a lot with regards to the engine size. We've been side by side and punched it and I'm not pulling away by much.

I think he paid 16 OTD at the end of the model year and I paid 13 for mine. The price difference is not that much when you consider all the things that I have purchased to improved things that simply are not needed on his bike...

Seat, bar risers, (His has ABS, mnes does not)..heated grips, I needed a better windshield, he does not, He has cruise, etc...

Yes the 2 things I do not like are the vibrations..which ANY bike compared to the ST is going to feel like a woman's helper:o: and the mirrors...your vision is 40% gloves and handlebars..

It is though a very nice bike..the maintenance more often and more expensive, again compared to the ST, ANY bike will likely need more maintenance..

Agreed on the dealer network...

Bones

09-12-2006, 07:35 AM

Motorcycle = "motor" + "cycle".

"Motor" is the first part, and no bike I've ridden has a motor I like better for the kind of riding I do than the ST1300. The newest RT I rode was an 1150. It's best quality was handling. It's lighter than the ST so that's no surprise, but the ST handles superbly so it's like comparing Granny Smith apples and Red Delicious apples.

The RT's shortcomings which doomed it for my consideration were the coarse motor and clunky shifter. I don't understand the appeal. Putting the $$ aside, I'd buy the ST (and did) because it's smooth and refined.

Ride what you like, man...you only go around once! I can't imagine anyone here would disown you for choosing an RT.

tdeboeser

09-12-2006, 08:06 AM

Motorcycle = "motor" + "cycle".

Ride what you like, man...you only go around once! I can't imagine anyone here would disown you for choosing an RT.

+100

:PoPoST1:
:03biker:
:policeST:
:biker:
:06biker:
:04biker:
:ggw1:
:cbcgw1:
: bgw1:
:chop1:
:sbs1:
:bannana

NCSam

09-12-2006, 08:27 AM

Your dilema reminds me of my ex-wife. Initally she looked great and handled very well. Ergonomics were spot on. Maintenance cost were low. She had all the right words and all the right moves. Then it all went south!

Maintenance cost soared! And after a few years the newer models started looking so good. I won't go into the details but it cost me a fortune when I decided to turn her loose!

Just the other day, I was in a Beemer store and sitting there was a yellow and black K1200S! WOW! It was everything my ST is not! I just had to have her! Older and wiser now, I decided to look into it before I said "I do". By the time the wedding was over, I would have propped down around $18,000 before I carried her in the door of my home. Apparently, everything I've heard about the maintenance cost of the Beemers is true! Found out also, that the fancy automatic suspension, although highly recommended is a potentially costly item; e.g. Rear shock alone cost approx. $2,000 to replace and usually runs out of juice around 30,000 miles (that's two years for me!!)

So, I came home dejected to my dirty ST and my little VFR sitting faithfully just waiting for me to play with them and it hit me. I've got the best of both worlds at a combined cost of less than what that one georgeous bike would cost me. My ST has been faithful, never let me down. Cleaned up she is beautiful. She's a little on the heavy side but, ... so am I !! I just don't think I could have it any better. I'll let some other poor sucker be bedazzled by the K's beauty and let him soak his money to keep her happy. I'm hanging with my two ladies.

Good luck, bro in whatever decision you make.

Sam

Tor

09-12-2006, 08:55 AM

My ST has been faithful, never let me down. (well once it did, after Tor worked on it) :crackup

Heyyyyy, watch it....

Hmmm, interesting...., do you think it is a psychological thing...a "head growing too big thing"..a "I AM RIDING A BEEMER" thing? Why would you pay 10 grand more for a bike if the improvements are marginal? Beats the hell out of me....Anyhu, hope you're doing good, Sam..:D ..

805gregg

09-12-2006, 08:58 AM

You are going to miss the power, I went on a long ride with a friend who rides one, in passing situations I smoked him, in the twistys I was pushing to keep up with him, I was scraping hard parts left and right. One thing the new BMW's are not as reliable as they used to be, I know of one ex BMW rider who would take a final drive unit with him on long rides.I'll keep th ST.

BamaRider

09-12-2006, 10:56 AM

Maintenance between the 2 bikes, pretty much washes out. Yes, the RT has to be serviced every 6k miles, currently about 250 bucks a pop at the dealer.

BUT, in my case, the RT returnes 10-12 mpg more than my ST. It consistently gives me 55-58 mpg. Using my last long tour as a guide, I save 250 dollars for every 8k I ride the RT instead of the ST. The other factor is tires. Again, only speaking in MY situation, the RT's rubber go over 15k miles before I have to change out. The ST's Z6 come in about 12k.

But yes, the Honda is less trouble to maintain. My 1300 has almost 50k miles and has yet to have the valve covers off. Only tires, oil changes, and one coolant flush.

The 1100 series BMW did have final train issues, but so far the 1200 has been good, but not a lot high mileage 1200 RTs around yet.

The RTs transmission is much improved, but still NOTHING shifts like a Honda.

The RT with its upright seating position, excellent aerodynamics, handling, and vast array of touring extras, make it a hard bike to beat. Honda should take note. The V4 is the ST's edge. It makes a lot of power all across the band. The RT has good power, but the bike seems to get "busy" around 100 mph, where as the Honda is just getting to cruising speed.

The RT is just a lot of fun to ride in the twisties, and cruises very well on the open road at anything below 100. The ability to set the suspension on the fly at the press of button, gives the rider the optimal suspension position on any kind of road. Gonna be in the mountains? Hit the button, firm up the pre load and dampening for leaning. Heading back to the interstate? Hit the button again, and go to comfort, bring the windshield up for the quietest ride in motorcycling, and set the cruise.

Those things come at a price. I love riding the Honda, every bit as good as bike as the RT, but it NEEDS those options to complete the package. I don't think the Honda cockpit can ever get as quiet as the RT's, but its not like the ST's is noisy. But it definately needs cruise control, ESA, a good heated seat, and a 6th gear. And I'd pay whatever to have that stuff on my Honda.

hig4s

09-12-2006, 11:52 AM

I made a big mistake today. I went to a BMW dealership and test rode a R1200RT. I fell in love with the handling. Much nimbler than the ST. You can easily feel the lesser weight. Two quirks: the gear shift is not easily accessible under the engine head. The turn signals on each side and the cancel on the right side need some getting used to. Other than that, I could get used to this bike.

The one huge difference in favor of the ST is the engine, much more smooth (actually the RT is not smooth at all) and the power. No surge on the RT however.

So, here's my question to you guys: what do you think I would miss the most of the ST if I traded for an RT (obviously, other than the members of this amazing forum, the best IMHO all hobbies combined)?

Thank you for any feedback.

Cheers

I've tried several BMWs and I actually liked the older R1150RT better than the new 1200RT,,, but if I was going to spend that kind of money on a SportTouring machine I would go with the new K1200GT, styled much like the RT, even lighter, has the new transverse inline 4, smooth, fast, sweet machine. But still expensive for maintenance unless you can do most of your own.

RTETR

09-12-2006, 12:57 PM

Be happy and ride what you feel is best for you but here's my comment from someone who owns both a Honda and a BMW.

(originally posted at thread - Tagsport Pimped my Ride)

I pained over to buy an RT or an ST for the better part of a year. Only after doing the math on both the purchase price and the maintenance costs for both did I take a test ride on the RT and then the ST. Both are very nice bikes and quality and performance for both are well proven however the smoothness and ever present power of the ST1300 made my decision fairly easy, ST1300. This is my preference base on the personal appeal of the ST over the RT not to mention I kept $$$ in my pocket on the sticker price and even more on the maintenance. My ST is a fraction of the cost it would have been to maintain the RT and remain under BMW's warranty protection.

I have both an ST1300 and a BMW GS so the bikes are not comparable however my experience with my dealer's service and attitudes might be of value. I'm lucky to have both BMW and Honda within 15 minutes of home. Both Honda shops are friendly, courteous, flexible and professional while BMW are certainly professional but not at the same level of customer service. I would say the difference is that Honda wants to service both the customer and the bike while BMW seem to feel they are there to service the bike and the customer is there to pay the premiums on the invoice. Neither are really better or worse, just different.

I have a few friends with BMW's which explains my plate :D One "RT friend" has ridden my ST1300 a couple times has hinted to swap bikes for a few miles while on a couple trips. "No thanks", I've said, and then gave the throttle a twist with a smile.

An other buddy really wants to test ride the ST and I've offered to let him take mine for spin but he declines. He knows he has a preference for the ST over his own RT! Problem for him is his wife also rides a BMW and so I think there's perhaps some "brand dependency" in his garage.

Maybe my comments will help you in making a decision, then again, maybe not. If you do decide on the RT, enjoy it and be sure to read my plate when I pass you. ;)

Cheers,

Bones

09-12-2006, 01:26 PM

RTETR...love it!

(Now watch...some dude on a GT is going to counter that with an STETR plate. Of course the GT dude could also get RTETR, but someone's got that already!)

jdpfms

09-12-2006, 01:40 PM

Guy, thanks for the feedback. From just sitting on an RT in the showroom, it seems more upright which I like. My ST1300 is an awesome machine, but I am still having difficulty making it fit like a glove. I am having the OEM seat redone, and the Corbin is good but still makes me slide just a little forward. I've got MCL risers but like them with a set of GenMars stacked (barely allows cables to work this way). I may be trying too hard to get a good fit, but I'd be interested to hear how you have both your bikes set up and compare how you feel about riding long distances on each.

Do you or would you do all your own service on the RT? If not, why?

JDP

RTETR

09-12-2006, 07:45 PM

JDP,

I wouldn't service an RT mainly because of BMW's warranty restrictions and the fact that BMW are far less forgiving or flexible than Honda when it comes to service and service records.

As for how my ST is set up I can offer you mainly the following that might help your comfort situation:

I'm 5'8", 185lbs with a 30" inseam and now have 38K since June last year.

My ST has a Top Saddlery seat which is set in middle front, lower at rear with the two rubber stops removed from the under seat bracket so I am tilted slightly farther backwards. (You might want to try this?)

I do not have bar risers however I have replaced my stock grips with larger diameter "mushy" grips. (They are dirt bike grips but very, very comfy)

My wind screen is a 2+2 Cee Bailey's and it's mounted in the lower (upper) mounting position for a steeper wind current in addition to the added wind protection from the mirror and fairing deflectors. (See the manual to adjust the windscreen brackets)

In case your wondering, my boots are Sidi On Road's and they don't really add any length to my reach I don't think. But they are one h3ll of a boot :p:

At the end of the day it boils down to rider comfort and preference but I can tell ya that my friends with the RT's have done as much to their scoots than I have to improve their comfort level also.

UNTMatt

09-12-2006, 08:51 PM

The price difference is not that much when you consider all the things that I have purchased to improved things that simply are not needed on his bike...

Those are relative. The changes you made to the ST may not necessarily be changes needed by another rider on the same bike.

Ride what fits you and the bike that meets your need(s). You're still welcome to join us for Saturday morning breakfast no matter what you ride. It's just that if you're on a BMW, you can afford to buy our meals. :p:

Lager

09-12-2006, 09:23 PM

Forget everything everyone already posted, just because they all make sense.Everyone has listed cost of ownership, great engine power ect ect..
Buy what makes you feel good, plain and simple. Life is short. Dont even worry or think about what other opinions are ?What works for them, might not work for you . Myself, I like Guzzis, but I bought an St just cause I could get financing.Gimme 2 years, Im gonna have a Guzzi.:)

jdpfms

09-12-2006, 11:08 PM

RTETR,

Thanks for your input. I'm about 6'1" and 225 with about 33" inseam. I can reach the bars with or without risers but it is the forward lean with some weight on the wrists I'm trying to avoid. I really like the looks of the top saddlery saddle. It looks like it would put one closer to the bars than the Corbin. That is out of France isn't it? I think getting the seating taken care of is the most important thing now. I've got the 2 V-Stroms which are hugely comfortable and fun. The ST is much more refined, and I want to make it work for me. I've put about 15,000 miles on it in 6-7 months as well as quite a bit on the Stroms so I'm not spending too much time in the garage wtth them, LOL.

JDP

maldos

09-13-2006, 12:23 AM

How many posts have you read about ST owners tipping over their bikes; only the plastic wing was scratched. I think the RT could be very expensive.

timblanch

09-13-2006, 07:50 AM

I spent a half-day test riding an '06 12RT in late January. I loved it. Except it really vibrated. It felt like little German hammers were pounding through the grips at 70-75 mph. I did not like that. Then there was price. Ouch. Then there were maintenance/repair costs. Ouch, again.

One month later, still concerned with the cost and vibration issues of the 12RT, I bought an almost new '05 ST13 (abs) for about $6k less than the RT. Granted the 12RT had some nice features, but my used ST13 had more than that value in owner adds that came with it. And it had the smooth V-4.

At first, I was totally thrilled with my ST13. I had never owned such a nice, smooth and refined motorcycle. Then after about two months, the doubts crept in. I was thinking about the 12RT a lot. Did I make a mistake buying the ST13? Should I have thrown the cost issue aside and bought 'what I really liked'? The ST13 was big, heavy, tippy, hot and had a low amplitude high frequency buzz in the foot pegs I did not like. It was actually causing pain in my reconstructed left knee after more than thirty minutes on the bike. I thought the counterbalanced 90 degree V-4 motor was supposed to be smooth?

Then summer came and I started really riding it. The miles started piling up as I did my 52 mile highway commute each way to work. My Miata sat unloved in the garage. I got brave and adjusted the counterbalancers. The buzz that had been causing pain in my knee improved enough to make that a non-issue. And it happened. I realized that I was riding more than I ever had in my life, the way I had always wanted to ride, and it was because the ST13 was so good at what I needed.

I have a friend who also rides his 12GS a lot. And the BMW shops have seen the insides of it repeatedly. My ST13 needs gas (50 mpg for me), oil, and tires. Period.

One thing I'll say for the BMW, you will establish a relationship with your dealer.

I'm thinking I might one day hit 100,000 miles on my ST13.

Tim
:biker:

BamaRider

09-14-2006, 04:01 PM

Both my bikes are totally stock. Windshields, seats, handlebars etc. I do have PIAA lights, heated grips, and power outlets on the ST. But neither bike has been modified for comfort, both fit me well right out of the crate.

The RT with its more upright position, and deeper cut seat, is just a notch better on a ultra long day 700+ miles. I can handle that mileage on the Honda, but the RT is a little better.

chiller

09-14-2006, 04:29 PM

i was in the same boat when i bought my 05 ST about 4 months ago...

FJR = too much heat, good price on a new one, like the HP kick in from the I4
ST = similar price to the FJR but more comfy with bigger windshield, better warranty
RT = higher price and maintenance intervals suck arse...plus the posted hourly shop rates at the BMW dealer made my eyes go as big as saucers...
Wing = much higher price, but man i thought about it for a good long time if I wanted one...

my 2 cents...

crazykz

09-15-2006, 09:20 PM

Enjoy getting your valves checked every 6K. I'll be down the road a couple 1000 miles waiting for you to get out of the shop. ;)

Curt

Caper

09-16-2006, 04:50 AM

Helped my friend do the valves on his 1200RT the other day, piece of cake!
A lot easier than the ST's.

UNTMatt

09-16-2006, 11:49 AM

Helped my friend do the valves on his 1200RT the other day, piece of cake!
A lot easier than the ST's.

The ST shouldn't be too difficult compared to most inlines. The ST makes up for any additional difficulty considering that you will do almost three valve checks/adjustments on the RT to every one on the ST. Not to mention that the ST will probably not have any adjustment necessary until 32k or better (this is going off of what I have read).

PNWSTMan

09-16-2006, 01:32 PM

I have 2 friends with Bmmrsss
They spend so much more money for maintenance than I do and more often
ACK!

tccox

09-16-2006, 04:35 PM

UNTMatt

09-16-2006, 06:34 PM

I owned Oilheads from 1999 to 2004. While I DO prefer my St1300, going back and comparing maintenance costs the Oilheads were no more than the ST has been. As far as valve adjustment checks sure, every 6000 miles vs 18000 BUT on a Oilhead its a 30 minute job vs several hours on a ST1300.

Look, don't go to a ST board and ask opinions of BMWs , go to the BMW Big Board and get comments from actual BMW owners

http://www.ibmwr.org/

I've been a president there for close to 10 years and some very good info there.

You'll get the facts there.

You go to a ST board and ask about BMWs you're gonna learn

They're overpriced (Well, thats true)

Unreliable (Bulls***, not true)

High maintance (Not really)

And so on

You go to a BMW board and ask about ST1300s you'll learn

They Have No Character

They have such severe heat problems

They all leak coolant

And so on

Love my ST1300, In my honest opioine there's no better bike in the world. But theres nothing wrong at all with a BMW

BMW makes excellent bikes...although, I know little of their newer model reliability. They aren't high maintanence (as far as I've seen) other than they require more frequent valve adjustments. I think that the biggest issue is cost of parts, BMW warranty, and parts availability. If I ride into a town that only has a few bike dealerships and need a part, chances are, I'll be able to find a Honda dealership long before I find a BMW shop. What I've seen of parts for BMW, they are more expensive and, many times, the dealership will have to order the part you need. Although that happens at any dealership, it seems to happen more frequently for my BMW friends. If another dealership has the part in stock, that dealership isn't usually anywhere close. I personally experenced these issues when I rode Triumph...and I love the Triumph Triple!!!!

I say ride what fits you. Just because one bike wasn't right for me does not mean it's not the right bike for you. :capwin:

Bliz

09-17-2006, 10:10 PM

Honda dealers that I've seen carry very few ,if any, parts for Honda street bikes. Might have an oil filter in stock. Will carry enough parts, though to build several ATV,s. Parts for Hondas have to be ordered like any other shop.

The Sea Dog

09-18-2006, 08:43 AM

You might miss your $$$. Check STN beemer sub forums, seems not only will the rear end give out on you, so might the clutch. And appearently the clutch is a NON-DIY. It's two pices and the case has to come apart.

I really like Beemers, But I will never own one.

Tom de

Just more hearsay and mis-information, I own a couple of boxers, rt and S. Some people have had problems with the final drive bearings which is what I presume you are alluding too, (though you don't actually say what the 'rear end' issues is) but the vast majority of bikes don't. As for the clutch nonsense, absolute ******, it's non-diy in the way that some owners here feel that valve adjustment or even coolant replacement is !!! Yes it's a dry clutch, but I have personally replaced both of mine and some other owners at home in my garage. The design of the boxer engine and the shaft drive means that it is a more involved process getting access to it, but that's it, easy to remove easy to replace. Fine bikes, though I'd agree a little pricey ! and the finish isn't what you'd expect on the S.

Toodle Pip
:confused:

tccox

09-18-2006, 10:03 AM

Well said. A LOT of misinformation about BMWs on this board. I certainly enjoyed my BMWs and never had any major problems with any of them. But good grief the price. I owned two Roadsters. Just saw they've introduced the new Roadster , the R1200R. Starting price without ABS is over $13,000 and thats for a naked bike !!!!!!

Just more hearsay and mis-information, I own a couple of boxers, rt and S. Some people have had problems with the final drive bearings which is what I presume you are alluding too, (though you don't actually say what the 'rear end' issues is) but the vast majority of bikes don't. As for the clutch nonsense, absolute ******, it's non-diy in the way that some owners here feel that valve adjustment or even coolant replacement is !!! Yes it's a dry clutch, but I have personally replaced both of mine and some other owners at home in my garage. The design of the boxer engine and the shaft drive means that it is a more involved process getting access to it, but that's it, easy to remove easy to replace. Fine bikes, though I'd agree a little pricey ! and the finish isn't what you'd expect on the S.

Toodle Pip
:confused:

John Anthony

09-18-2006, 10:30 PM

While I may be a bit biased because I love my ST, our stable now has an R1200RT in it thanks to a swap of rides Maggie made last summer. I've put about 150 miles on her bike, mostly in the twisties and while it's well engineered, it's not an ST. It vibrates, doesn't shift as well, and I don't like the left to right torque when you're reving the engine. I don't think it handles the twisties as well as an ST, but then I don't have as many miles on Maggie's bike as I do on mine. The ST just feels more solid on the road to me at freeway speeds and higher than the RT does.

But then again, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Maggie loves the lighter weight, lower center of gravity, and cool running RT.

John

roadancer

02-23-2007, 08:33 AM

Easy solution,,,,
Go the ST, and you won't look back at all,,,,
THEN with the savings pick up a low mileage R50 "Beakster",,naked,,.
Use it as a "summer ride" , evening cruises, ice cream runs, quick and dirty stuff....You'll enjoy it's charastics, also.,,,own 2 rides, and cover most of the road riding spectrum with $'s left over...It works..
Roadancer

Bill L

02-23-2007, 09:18 AM

c-lapier

02-23-2007, 06:16 PM

I belong to the BMW Touring Club of Detroit and have had a lot of conversations with BMW riders about their bikes and mine. They routinely comment that my ST1300 is "bullitproof" and might have bought one if only they could get a demo ride at a Honda dealership. By the way local rallies are held around the country and all makes are welcome. BMW riders are universally friendly and are heavily into camping.

Bones

02-23-2007, 06:41 PM

BMW riders are universally friendly and are heavily into camping.

I've come in contact with only a couple Beemer dudes that don't fit the "universally friendly" label. They were apparently yuppie newbies at a Beemer rally who couldn't fathom why people who weren't riding kraut were allowed. There bikes and gear were all brand new. ("That's some fine expensive gear you have there, Mr. Hooper," said Quint.)

Most of what I know about motorcycle camping I learned from BMW guys...well, and the Guzzi guys, and the Connie guys, and the Ducati guys, but mostly the BMW guys who also ride a Honda, Yamaha, Triumph, and a couple extra BMWs.

Caveman TV rules. :cf1:

bobclift

02-23-2007, 07:02 PM

I've recently sold my 04 BMW oilhead (R1150RA) and moved to my 06 ST. I liked the BMW and it's handling, I liked the fit and finish too. I had a rear main seal leak under warranty at 4,400 miles (no big deal). There wasn't much I didn't like about it.

Why switch? The R1150R isn't really a touring bike although for the dollars you can get it close. I wanted a smooth tourer like the ST and I didn't think the RT was 5K plus better than the ST.

More important though, dealers keep closing (read every edition of the the BMW Owners' News) and service is expensive. The shrinking dealer network spooked me. I won't have to be concerned with that on an ST! Good luck with your decision. Bob

LDMike

02-23-2007, 08:46 PM

Every time I read the BMW vs Honda "discussions" I think about the time in Key West when someone deliberately knocked my covered ST (on the center stand) over on it's side. There was minimal damage - broken mirror, minor scratches on rear bag, no oil or gas leaks on the street and the bike started right up after I got her back on her feet. Random act of violence.

I've looked at the beemer like everyone else has on this board and compared it to my Tigress and it still comes up short - too expensive to purchase and maintain, perhaps slightly better ergos and handling, but at a price, fewer (and decreasing) number of dealerships, and could not justify the switch.

Had my BMW R1200RT been knocked over in Key West- given the price of Japanese plastic vs. German plastic- I'd still be paying for it....

Thank you, Mother Honda, for tip over wings that really work.

Muchmore

02-23-2007, 08:53 PM

BMW's are fantastic bikes. They along with all bikes have their own characteristic's, it's impossible to compare any 2 modern bikes because they all do what they are intended to so well. But, talk to a BMW, Moto Guzzi, Ducati, Cagiva, KTM or Aprilla insider and they will tell you the same thing. Love the product hate the producer. I LOVE those out of the ordinary bikes but after past dealings with parts not available, parts price increases so fast before I can to the dealer to pick it up. Its a hard sell. I even had a bike on order for 8 weeks one time and it was in Atlanta the whole time, they couldnt get it shipped it because of a teamsters strike.

BamaRider

02-23-2007, 11:36 PM

Well I dunno, the RT goes for about 3-4k more then the ABS ST. Mine was 16 something.

I love both bikes, but the cost of ownership is greater on the RT. I guess I could learn to do the valve myself. They say its not complicated, and a 30 min job with its simple tappet set up.

The motor is vibey till the clutch if fully out, and the revs go up, then the counter balancers come into play and the bike is smooth, but it will never be a ST. At crusing speeds, 60-85 the RT is as smooth as any transverse 4 bike. Only when it goes beyond 105 does the bike seem to get "busy"

Where the bike excels is in how well it is thought out. Excellent aerodynamics and wind mgt. The ST is good at wind mgt but I have to give the edge to the RT. At touring speeds the air pocket is quiet and smooth with screen raised. It has all the little things a touring bike should have, cruise control, gear indicator, excllent lighting, and brakes, se;f cancel turn signals, on the fly suspension adjustment, and power outlets. They didn't leave much out. The riding position is prolly the finest in sport touring. Upright, no lean, bars back to the rider. I can ride it all day stock, but so can on the Honda.

Where I like the Honda is in power delivery and how well it handles all that speed. It is not far behind the FJR in much move refined package, but the 07 FJ closed the gap in that area. The Honda feels very civilized at speed over 100.

I don't know about the long term reliability, I wanted nothing to do with the 1100 series, but the 12 was a vast improvement, and the issues of the 1100s were addressed. The 12 shifts much better then the 11s, not as good as the Honda's but not bad. Mine only has about 27k miles, but so far nothing has broke other then 2 high beam bulbs. The bike delivers great mpg, mine is in the mid 50s, but I never buy a bike based on mpg. LOL. In the long run I doubt it can be as reliable as the Honda (what is?) but it is hard to fault it in terms of pure function.

Its light weight, and vast do dads, and all around comfort make the RT a great bike, it is hard bike beat. I don't know which bike I like best, depends on the day of the week. I ride them both equally and enjoy them immensely. But deep down I'll always be a Honda guy.

este1300pilot

02-24-2007, 06:42 AM

Rode BMW for 20 years. I make regular cross country trips, the lack of BMW dealerships other than major cities was always a concern on these drives, although (knock on wood) the beemer never let me down.

Made a habit of sticking to precisely to the maintenance schedule which was expensive, but it kept the bike going at all times. Never had a problem getting parts.

However, when it came time to buy new, I checked out BMW and Honda. For about $5,000 less, the ST was an equal in technology, relatively bullet proof based on the 1100's out there including one of my riding buddies experience and talking to other owners, and a dealer in every moderate size town.

Both great brands, but I am happy to have made the switch and after the first full year with the ST, no regrets.

I am sure that the newer BMW's are great but think carefully about the price and availability of service.

BamaRider

02-24-2007, 09:48 PM

Bill L- The 1300 is at 54k miles, and the RT at 26 something.

I'll add boxer twins are not for everyone, but the recent incarnation in the 1200 is the best yet.

Both bikes do the samething, in vastly different ways. Usually if you like the Honda, you'll like the BMW. It is a common thing to hear, "yanno if I didn't own a BMW my bike would be Honda." Same for us on STs. Many of us would be on GTs or RTs if Honda did not make the ST. As sport touring riders we have much more in common with the BMW folks then the Honda owners of the other models. Can you imagine going to a VTX rally?? Not that there is anything wrong with those folks, but riding in group with them is kinda hard. Small gas tanks, no lean factor, and no full on top end power makes riding beside such bikes painful.

But we think nothing of showing up with RT, GT guys and going for a ride.

The lack of BMW dealers is a factor. My dealer is only 1 hour away, but on the open roads out west, have a good tow plan. BMW does offer one as part of its 3 year warranty.

tdeboeser

02-25-2007, 07:44 AM

I love BMW's, and I like what they are doing; adding models, sub-models, lightening the bikes and add more power. Seems like BWM is trying, not always evident from Honda. But the last few IBR DNF's are telling...

LD and Adventure bikes shouldn't have records like that.

I'm lucky there is a VERY good beemer dealer here ( Morton's ), who I always here good things about. They must do well too, last year or so they opened a brand new building, built from the ground up.

Don't think a bwm would be my only bike... when I win the lottery I'll get a GS or R1200s, or maybe a K....

Tom de

Judge

03-01-2007, 11:24 AM

I've tried several BMWs and I actually liked the older R1150RT better than the new 1200RT,,, but if I was going to spend that kind of money on a SportTouring machine I would go with the new K1200GT, styled much like the RT, even lighter, has the new transverse inline 4, smooth, fast, sweet machine. But still expensive for maintenance unless you can do most of your own.

Valid points, but just a small correction. The GT is heavier than the RT.

STryder

03-20-2007, 12:06 PM

I too suffered from the which bike to buy. I rode an 04 R1150RT with 20K that I fell in love with at a BMW Dealer that was priced the same as a brand new non ABS 06 ST. I considered all the issues that have been mentioned before and came to the following conclusion.
I currently own and ride an 02 Magna that is a join to runs the many twisty roads in my local area, but for long tours at freeway speeds with touring cargo I wanted a more appropriate (comfortable) ride. I loved the BMW but realized that in order to purchase a new BMW I would be forced to sell the Magna. I finally bought a new 06 ST and am keeping the Magna for day rides.
Best of both worlds.

paddlepro

hig4s

03-23-2007, 02:40 PM

Valid points, but just a small correction. The GT is heavier than the RT.

checking specs I see you are correct, Hmmm, it didn't feel heavier..

JGreb

11-12-2007, 08:05 PM

In my quest for my next bike I have narrowed it down to these two. What a great resource the members of this site have been. I appreciate everyones objective views on both of these great machines, and welcoming me to this site. I have no doubt nobody will ban me if I buy the RT, Right?:D

I thought it was interesting to point something out that has me scratching my head. In the November Motorcyclist page 88 and 89 have the two bikes specs side by side.

1/4 mile times

ST 11.43@118.55
RT 11.68@118.9

Top Gear roll on 60-80
ST 4.52
RT 4.3

HP/TQ
ST 114/83.5
RT 101/78

With the weight savings of the RT, could all the reports of the ST being so much faster and more powerful be just a seat of the pants impression? Maybe it is not such a gap in performance as some might have you believe? The top gear roll ons I found interesting considering that the BMW is in sixth and the Honda is in fifth. I know, top gear is top gear. I suspected the Honda would be quicker with the HP advantage and a lower top cog, but they are very close indeed. I also suspect that if you did a roll on comparison say; 60-100 the Honda would be kicking some tail.

Mellow

11-12-2007, 08:09 PM

No one will ban you because you make the decision that's right for you. And even if it's not an ST you are still welcome on the site, remember you meet the nicest people on a Honda.. LOL

I don't think all the stats mean anything.. if you sit on the bike and it fits you and you're happy with it and you ride it and everything works for you... then it's a good match.

Good luck in your decision.

jdpfms

11-12-2007, 09:35 PM

I've got a blue 04 ST1300ABS and have it farkled out just right for me to be supremely comfortable. Like Bamarider, I won't give up this ST unless it is for another one. I've been liking the RTs way back to the 1150s. I test rode one model year of the 1150 and really didn't quite like the vibes and hated the whine of the servo assist brakes. I now really like the 1200RT except for three things. I don't like the price difference. I don't like the sparse dealer network and expensive maintenance but would do most myself. The third thing though is the continuing history of rear drive failures. I know it may be uncommon, but it would sure be in the back of my mind all the time. I know people who just say if it breaks they will just fix it, but it is where and when it breaks and if it is covered that would matter. If I ever get an RT, I'd either get an extended warranty or sell it at the end of the warranty.

JDP

BamaRider

11-13-2007, 11:32 AM

Since this thread started my RT is now closing down on 40k miles.

I rode it to Texas, Ohio, and NY on seperate tours this riding season, and it performed flawlessly, and so far the dreaded FD hasn't materialized. I'm hoping my RT will not have that problem, it is happens to small number of bikes, but still way too much. There is definate problem with the system that BMW needs to address.

The problem seems to be appear long before 50k miles, so maybe I'm outta the woods.

That would be sad, because the bike such a great all around machine. The comfort, amenties, and great handling make the RT a fine motorcycle, plus it has all the intangibles. Everywhere I park it, a crowd gathers.

epconde

11-13-2007, 01:16 PM

I made a big mistake today. I went to a BMW dealership and test rode a R1200RT. I fell in love with the handling. Much nimbler than the ST. You can easily feel the lesser weight. Two quirks: the gear shift is not easily accessible under the engine head. The turn signals on each side and the cancel on the right side need some getting used to. Other than that, I could get used to this bike.

The one huge difference in favor of the ST is the engine, much more smooth (actually the RT is not smooth at all) and the power. No surge on the RT however.

So, here's my question to you guys: what do you think I would miss the most of the ST if I traded for an RT (obviously, other than the members of this amazing forum, the best IMHO all hobbies combined)?

Thank you for any feedback.

Cheers

I've ridden both bikes and love them both. I liked the handling and the ergonomics of the RT more, but like the ST's V-4. You'll be happy either way.

STingray

11-13-2007, 01:51 PM

Just some info to consider from the '07 Iron Butt Rally (printed in the IBR newsletter):

"The Tarnished Blue and White Roundel

A disproportionate number of the DNFs fall on the shoulders of BMW. BMW failed several riders, demonstrating that they are no longer capable of building motorcycles that can run 11,000 miles in 11 days without a significant fraction experiencing a catastrophic drivetrain failure of some sort. BMW of North America has requested contact information for the riders who experienced failures. The riders BMW should be more concerned about are the thousands of unsuspecting souls who will breakdown in the future because the company has lost its previous ability to either design durable drivetrain components or (more likely) adequately monitor production and assembly quality. It's way, way past time for BMW to fix its drivetrain reliability problems. A good start might be to acknowledge that there is a problem. "

This is on the heels of the stats for the '05 IBR: BMWs made up 50% of the field of bikes, but made up 90% of the breakdowns.

A local CHP officer I spoke with a short while ago loves the RT he's riding. But he said that he was spending WAY too much time at the dealership for repairs/adjustment/maintenance issues.

-Info not mine- :D But I have ridden my friends R1200RT! (so, when's that new ST coming out??? :D :D :D )

Ray

AgSTreak

11-25-2007, 07:58 AM

I posted this on another thread-
"I recently got back from a round trip to Florida on my '03 ST. Something like 2600 miles for what was basically a weekend event. The ST did everything I asked it to do and offered much more. LEOs and some rain made me cautious, 5 - 10 mph over posted speeds on the slab. God I love this bike.
Welcome and enjoy!!"
Most modern sport/touring bikes will do the same. I sat on the BMW's available at the time and chose the ST, with no regrets. This was after having ridden Airheads most of my adult life. The ergos on the Beemers just didn't feel right. If the ergos had been a little better for me, I probably would have been just as happy with an RT or K-bike. Life is short. If the mood moves you, go for it.

05ST1300ABS

01-01-2008, 03:41 AM

Many of us would be on GTs or RTs if Honda did not make the ST. .

I like reading your posts and I like your observations of both bikes and I respect your information as an owner of both bikes.
And now I believe you mentioned something, again, that I might agree with.

I would be on a GT, albeit, maybe, an 04 model at first. Then after about three years I would have moved to the 07 GT for all the changes and technology. Used ones are around 16-18 and that isnt bad when you consider you are getting some of that money from the sale of your previous bike.
But Honda has made my first choice the ST1300 and I havent worn it out yet at 32K miles. Perhaps in three more years it will be around 92K and Ill go shopping again.

Lou65

01-01-2008, 05:27 AM

A bunch of money, a few missed shifts, comfort, dependability...you can still have us here.

Subdivided

01-01-2008, 06:15 AM

My nod went to the ST in October because of the price difference and the reduced maintenance on the ST. Both are excellent machines.

Don't be afraid of the maintenance cost on the BMW, get a shop manual and learn to do the work yourself - they are easy to work on. Problem is, you have to work on them, cuts into the riding time. Just my 2 cents...

Fishman

01-01-2008, 01:18 PM

Middle of last year I wanted to trade in my 2003 RT1150 (had covered 36000 miles) and tested both the ST1300 and the RT1200. Went with the ST because that smooth power just leaves the RT in the weeds. Gearchange better and servicing cheaper (although more frequent so not sure it actually saves you money). The toys on the RT12 are tempting like Electronically Adjustable Suspension, Heated Seat and, if you buy a nearly new model these are often available at very little extra above a basic spec machine.

After 6 months of ownership and 5000 miles, wouldn't go back to the RT1150 or trade for an RT1200. My only regret is the ride quality and I can see having to begrudgingly hand over hard earned cash for an upgrade rear shock and possibly front springs. Basically the ST1300 is a great bike that, for me anyway, is let down by some cheap and nasty suspension.

So you won't miss the iffy ride (assuming you are one of the unlucky wobblers among us) or the short service intervals but you might miss the smooth acceleration and gearchanges - Beemer twins are notoriously clunky.

The only way you will find out is to own the bike - take a risk and if you don't like the RT, there will always be someone else looking to buy one.

Good luck.:)

Elliot Chalew

01-01-2008, 03:22 PM

Is it true in order for the BMW Warranty to be in full force and effect, all servicing MUST be performed by an authorized BMW Motorcycle dealer?

If this is so, an immediate measurable value you might notice is the additional coST of maintenance . . . .

Can you consider retaining your ST?

Blrfl

01-01-2008, 03:45 PM

Is it true in order for the BMW Warranty to be in full force and effect, all servicing MUST be performed by an authorized BMW Motorcycle dealer?

Not in the US. The Magnusson-Moss Act forbids a manufacturer from tying specific products or services (i.e., must be serviced by an authorized dealer or the oil must be their brand) to the warranty unless they're provided free-of-charge.

--Mark

zoomzoomzoom

01-07-2008, 02:34 PM

How many posts have you read about ST owners tipping over their bikes; only the plastic wing was scratched. I think the RT could be very expensive.

You're right it would most likely be more expensive to drop a RT vs. ST. However because the center of gravity of the RT is much lower, as it should be, the likelihood of dropping the RT is greatly reduced. I've owned both and never dropped ether (knock, knock). But I did have some very close calls with the ST. The handling of the RT at any speed is superior to the ST but at low speed there’s no comparison.

When I was a kid we had a few head of cattle and one of my jobs was to muck out the stalls with a shovel and a wheelbarrow. I never tipped the wheelbarrow over when it was empty.

As a comparison; the RT handles like an empty wheelbarrow while the ST handles like a wheelbarrow full of……let’s just say it’s “tippy”.;)

tdeboeser

01-08-2008, 06:55 AM

bluedragon

01-08-2008, 10:22 AM

I ride the ST at slow speeds a lot and found it did take a lot of getting used to since it does have a high center of gravity (compared to cruisers that I ride and the old KZ1000). The key is counter balancing and friction on the clutch (like you all didn't know that, but just sayin).

Getting ready to spend two weeks with an 1150 R and have been told the biggest difference between the two, as far as slow speed riding goes, is the clutch. ST wet clutch, R (and RT and all Bimmers) dry clutch, so you have to work the rear brake more with little or no clutch. I prefer to work a wet clutch for controlling slow speed riding, but just my .02.

But for average riding around town and certainly touring, I don't know how much of a difference the clutch would make. Probably would come down to personal prefrence.

Texas

01-08-2008, 10:32 AM

I don't get it. I have read a countless number of posts about the ST being top heavy. Am I missing something here? I have been a very active rider my whole life and never had I had a issue with any Honda motorcycle being top heavy. The only bike I have ever riden that was top heavy was a BMW K1200LT. I can drive the ST at .25 mph, and turn it at that speed without issue. Now I am not saying that the R1200RT is even more nimble (can not say because I have never ridden it). However, I can say that if you have an issue with the ST being top heavy, you had better start taking some riding courses to sharpen your skills. The ST is a very easy bike to ride, and this includes turning sharply into a parking space, two up, fully loaded, at slow speed.

Texas

Bones

01-08-2008, 10:54 AM

Probably would come down to personal prefrence.

Therein, bluedragon effectively sums up all the opinions we have about motorcycles.

Rick Gibson

01-08-2008, 11:06 AM

St is not top heavy to me, I had a Honda Turbo it was very top heavy, My buddy has a Conny 03, full of fuel its a bear at low speeds.

Reiner Kappenberger

01-08-2008, 11:21 AM

Not in the US. The Magnusson-Moss Act forbids a manufacturer from tying specific products or services (i.e., must be serviced by an authorized dealer or the oil must be their brand) to the warranty unless they're provided free-of-charge.

--Mark

That is true. However BMW requires that you MUST obtain the diagnostic computer printout. This is a special BMW tool that is VERY expensive. Without the printout record your warranty is VOID.

Perfectly legal and as you can purchase the tool (did I say $$$$) it doesn't conflict with the Magnusson-Moss Act. However you are now bound to the dealer again.

Reiner

tommyboy

01-08-2008, 11:32 AM

To me, the maintenance costs are the biggest difference between these machines. When my list was down to BMW RT, FJR and ST the Beemer was scratched off my list for maintenance costs.

tdeboeser

01-08-2008, 12:13 PM

dduelin

01-08-2008, 01:40 PM

You're right it would most likely be more expensive to drop a RT vs. ST. However because the center of gravity of the RT is much lower, as it should be, the likelihood of dropping the RT is greatly reduced. I've owned both and never dropped ether (knock, knock). But I did have some very close calls with the ST. The handling of the RT at any speed is superior to the ST but at low speed there’s no comparison.

When I was a kid we had a few head of cattle and one of my jobs was to muck out the stalls with a shovel and a wheelbarrow. I never tipped the wheelbarrow over when it was empty.

As a comparison; the RT handles like an empty wheelbarrow while the ST handles like a wheelbarrow full of……let’s just say it’s “tippy”.;)That's a cute story. I am associated with a large club of primarily BMW riders. When you get a number of oilhead and hexhead boxers together it is surprising the large number of bikes with scratches on the cylinder heads. While you may have never dropped your RT many other owners have tipped their wheelbarrows over.

I practice slow speed riding alot and my 720 lb Honda is easier to complete full lock turns and figure 8's than my 430 lb BMW boxer, the difference for me being the ease of using the friction zone of a wet clutch and the feel of sitting "down in" the ST vs. sitting "on top" of the taller R100. Recent reviews of the R1200RT mention it feels tall and tippy compared to the ST or FJR so this is very much a subjective area.

STingray

01-08-2008, 03:21 PM

Texas

01-08-2008, 08:27 PM

Texas: Shhhhhh, they must not be talking about the bike, per sé, when they speak of "top heavy", eh? :D

She is a beautiful ride ;)

zoomzoomzoom

01-09-2008, 09:56 AM

That's a cute story.
I practice slow speed riding alot

All kidding aside, they are both great bikes. I think the reason that I was able to handle the ST and now the RT is that like you I practice. I also was willing to give up a weekend to take the experience riders course. This summer my brother in-law bought a big jap cruiser. I advised him to spend a little time practicing in the parking lot at slow speed. He didn’t and has dropped his bike three times. The final mishap resulted in my sister needing knee surgery.

In truth I have no emotional investment in either bike or any bike for that matter. I simply ride the bike that best meets our needs. If next year or the year after there is something out there that is a better fit for us I’d switch in a heart beat.

If anyone is considering either bike feel free to pm me with any specific questions you might have. Nearly all my riding is two up typically 300 to 500 miles a day. Last year we put about 10k miles on our ST. This year we got started late and currently have about 5k on the RT.

brianm767

02-22-2008, 05:04 PM

To me the RT is a fantastic bike, with an awful engine, i was shocked when i first rode one, I was all excited to take my buddies out, first thing I noticed is when I started it, the mirrors became almost useless with them shaking so bad from the vibes, the shield rattled all over the place, it was worse than my wifes 883 Sporster

I like the bike, the handling etc... but that motor ruins it for me, honestly I felt like I was riding a big POS that some one had built out of spare parts, My Buddie who swapped with me and rode my ST just smiled and said THATS NICE!!! he told me he wished he'd bought a ST instead and saved the extra money.

I love BMW's, I wish I could afford the new GS800 thats coming out, but that boxer motor has seen it's day come and I think it's time for it to go away.

Chris Parker

02-22-2008, 06:35 PM

but that boxer motor has seen it's day come and I think it's time for it to go away.

Fortunately, BMW Motorrad and it's 80,000 plus and climbing a year in sales boxer owners don't agree with that assessment. The boxer has a loyal following among the Roundel set and they already tried to kill it once before with the K series in the early 80's. If it does go the way of the dodo bird, it will be emissions that does it in. And from the scuttlebutt I hear, there is talk of the next gen going liquid cooled, someway, somehow. If you believe that.

I liked the smoothness of my ST when I had it, and I like the experience of the RT as well... they can't really be compared power plant-wise... totally different. BMW without a boxer is like Honda without that V-4 or H-D without that V-twin... they will sell. I know I am happy with my RT... served me well in all three models I have owned.

But I can understand your viewpoint coming from the ST and trying out the RT... different strokes (or in this case, 180 degree opposed ones) for different folks.

Cheers

bayoubear

02-22-2008, 06:35 PM

A buddy of mine rides the R12 and about 2 weeks ago we were meeting some friends to go for a ride and had to make a left hand turn where lots of fresh road construction had happened the day before. When the light changed we pulled out and started the turn me in front and left and he behind and to the right we both hit some loose pee gravel. Both uf us both went down .....all I had to do was step off of the ST after it shut off .....no harm done , just a sraped tip over wing cover .....he went all the way down and ended up with a shoulder injury...this week he's been to 4 different Honda dealerships.

BamaRider

02-22-2008, 06:47 PM

We're you on the 1100 series or the 12? The bike does idle like a twin, but once up to speed the counter balancers kick in and vibration is not a factor until you get into triple digits, but even then it is nothing dramatic.

Having logged almot 70k miles on the 1300 and 40,000 plus on the RT the last 3 years, there are ALOT of things both manufacturers can learn from the other.

For Honda they need to stufy the excellent road manners and wind mgt of the RT. They need to look at the small touches the RT brings to the game, such as heated seats, grips, cruise control, great balance and wt distibution, class leading instrumentation, power plugs, and awesome load capacity.

For BMW they need to find out who designs the transmissions and final drives and put him to work. They need to see what makes Hondas so reliable and at the same time low maintenance. The Honda V4 is for sure the finest all around motor you can put in a touring bike, the boxer twin can never match it, but it is not trying to. It is what makes the BMW unique and allows it so much versatility in frame design and suspension.

On the open highways and town of America, where I ride and tour, the RT without question brings the most comments. It turns heads where ever I park it. It is admired by young and old, parked in a field of bikes it will be the one the folks gather around. Why I dunno, to me it looks not much different then the ST, but I rarely ever get a comment on the Honda. The bike will get you in trouble, I've been asked for a ride in at state park and outside a steakhouse. I think the deep red color of the bike has something to do with it.

For sure it is not a bike for everyone, and for anyone that has spent a lifetime on Hondas it can be a quite foreign feeling. Prior to the RT I'd logged over 250,000 miles on Hondas, including 97k on a 2001 ST 1100. I took to the 1200 RT right away, where I cared not one iota for the 1100 series.

Although my RT has been trouble free over 40k miles, I believe the Honda wins that catergory hands down.

But people are people and you never know.

Chris Parker

02-22-2008, 06:59 PM

Well said Guy...

Hey when you gonna put together another Blue Ridge event? Would love to do that again... minus the get offs!

Chris

Bones

02-22-2008, 08:05 PM

So maybe it just comes down to whether you want a sport tourer that sounds like a Waring blender or one that sounds like George Jetson's car. Decisions, decisions.

BamaRider

02-22-2008, 09:16 PM

Chris-Mark your calendar for weekend after Columbus Day in October. Nothing happens we'll be there in Cruso. It is our time for one last ride, in a place I have become very partial to over the years.

We meet there every year on that weekend. Hope to see ya there.

brianm767

02-22-2008, 09:32 PM

Fortunately, BMW Motorrad and it's 80,000 plus and climbing a year in sales boxer owners don't agree with that assessment. The boxer has a loyal following among the Roundel set and they already tried to kill it once before with the K series in the early 80's. If it does go the way of the dodo bird, it will be emissions that does it in. And from the scuttlebutt I hear, there is talk of the next gen going liquid cooled, someway, somehow. If you believe that.

I liked the smoothness of my ST when I had it, and I like the experience of the RT as well... they can't really be compared power plant-wise... totally different. BMW without a boxer is like Honda without that V-4 or H-D without that V-twin... they will sell. I know I am happy with my RT... served me well in all three models I have owned.

But I can understand your viewpoint coming from the ST and trying out the RT... different strokes (or in this case, 180 degree opposed ones) for different folks.

Cheers
Yes I agree with you totally, the BMW has it's fans, and it will be around forever, I was just saying "I" think it should go away, but that is a little harsh, It shouldn't have said that , I agree just because I don't like it, doesn't mean there's not a place for it, it just wont be in my garage. but I do wish the RT had a different motor, I think it's a fantastic bike, thats let down by an out dated engine.

uptoblackwood

02-23-2008, 01:04 AM

I made a big mistake today. I went to a BMW dealership and test rode a R1200RT. I fell in love with the handling. Much nimbler than the ST. You can easily feel the lesser weight. Two quirks: the gear shift is not easily accessible under the engine head. The turn signals on each side and the cancel on the right side need some getting used to. Other than that, I could get used to this bike.

The one huge difference in favor of the ST is the engine, much more smooth (actually the RT is not smooth at all) and the power. No surge on the RT however.

So, here's my question to you guys: what do you think I would miss the most of the ST if I traded for an RT (obviously, other than the members of this amazing forum, the best IMHO all hobbies combined)?

Thank you for any feedback.

Cheers
You'd miss the engine guards (tip over bars)....

Check it out.

http://www.industryresearch.com.au/m...20panniers.mpg

Forest

slo~ride

02-23-2008, 01:12 AM

zoomzoomzoom

02-23-2008, 10:32 AM

Great bike except for the Maint. cost and the $5,000 + price differance. mmmmmm what could I do with 5k.....(top box, lights,Russell Daylong, heated gear, cruise control...........etc....etc.....etc.....)

I had the same misconception until I went shopping. The price difference or lack there of was one of the big surprises. They're not that different. I paid a little over 16k for the RT with the BMW tank bag. The price of a ST1300A if you add, cruse, handle bar risers, heated grips, power outlet, and custom heated seat (the RT factory seat is great for both my wife and me not so with our ST), tank bag all of which were unnecessary for me on the RT.
Then consider the resale value; the RT might be cheaper.

Now that doesn’t mean it’s the right bike for everyone but if the two bikes are equally equipped the purchase price is not an obstacle.

Computer Nerd

02-23-2008, 05:37 PM

Are there any K1200S or GT owners here?

I am serously thinking of getting one late this year after the ST is all paid.

Just looking for thoughts on those.

zoomzoomzoom

02-25-2008, 08:41 PM

Are there any K1200S or GT owners here?

I am serously thinking of getting one late this year after the ST is all paid.

Just looking for thoughts on those.

I'm going to test drive one this year.:D

dduelin

02-26-2008, 07:23 AM

Fortunately, BMW Motorrad and it's 80,000 plus and climbing a year in sales boxer owners don't agree with that assessment. The boxer has a loyal following among the Roundel set and they already tried to kill it once before with the K series in the early 80's. If it does go the way of the dodo bird, it will be emissions that does it in. And from the scuttlebutt I hear, there is talk of the next gen going liquid cooled, someway, somehow. If you believe that.

Cheers

Chris,

I suppose this is splitting hairs because the numbers are so small overall, but does the boxer really sell in numbers over 80,000 a year? In 2007 BMW sold 102,467 units worldwide. I guess it just seems unlikely that only ~20,000 of those units were K bikes and 650's, especially when BMW delayed the 800GS due to high demand for F650's. in 2006 the F650 sold just over 12,000 F650's, leaving just 8,000 for K bikes world wide if 80,000 units were boxers.

I found a source that says 2006 unit sales of 1200GS and 1200RT totaled 44,522 units. If we throw in R1200R and S sales it might be 80,000...

The really small numbers...BMW has 1.2% of the US market now, the same as 2000. They don't really sell any more bikes here than they did nearly a decade ago- barely more than 12,000 bikes a year. That is amazing to me considering the dealer support available for BMW's back to the /5's of the early 1970's. Recently I walked into a BMW dealer and ordered a $3 taillight reflector for my 27 year old airhead. It was not in stock but I got it the next business day at my house.

Chris Parker

02-26-2008, 08:44 AM

Chris,

I suppose this is splitting hairs because the numbers are so small overall, but does the boxer really sell in numbers over 80,000 a year? In 2007 BMW sold 102,467 units worldwide. I guess it just seems unlikely that only ~20,000 of those units were K bikes and 650's, especially when BMW delayed the 800GS due to high demand for F650's. in 2006 the F650 sold just over 12,000 F650's, leaving just 8,000 for K bikes world wide if 80,000 units were boxers.

I found a source that says 2006 unit sales of 1200GS and 1200RT totaled 44,522 units. If we throw in R1200R and S sales it might be 80,000...

The really small numbers...BMW has 1.2% of the US market now, the same as 2000. They don't really sell any more bikes here than they did nearly a decade ago- barely more than 12,000 bikes a year. That is amazing to me considering the dealer support available for BMW's back to the /5's of the early 1970's. Recently I walked into a BMW dealer and ordered a $3 taillight reflector for my 27 year old airhead. It was not in stock but I got it the next business day at my house.

I could be off in my number a bit... but I seem to remember reading in ON magazine about a year ago the breakdown of boxers to K bikes in total sales.. this was the figure of when the R1200GS sold over 100,000 total units since introduction in 05, so it was around that time I read this... but it said that the sales of boxers was at or around 80,000 (this would be the RT, GS, GSA, R, ST, HP (low production numbers here), RT-P).

At any rate... the boxer is continuing strong for BMW and as to U.S. sales figures, that is about right 12K-14K is about what they sell. I attribute that to two main reasons...

1. The marque is on the high side on cost of entry... most motorcyclists are buying bikes in the 4 figures... Enthusiasts are stepping up to the ST, FJR, and RT in the higher price range... BMW caters to an older crowd, usually more affluent (not always the case) and can drop 20K on a K1200GT... the average motorcyclist does not spend that much on their bike (save maybe GW owners and some HD models). It would be interesting to see if the stats bear that out... This is just my guess from what I see at local dealers and what people are riding. Even if there are more people than I estimate who really pop for $15,000 plus for their rides, I gotta think that still the average rider only goes for a $5600 Suzuki SV650 or Wee-Strom or Yamaha 1100 Custom Cruiser.

2. Honestly, most of all their range is geared to the sport touring/touring crowd and the US is mostly a cruiser country... and BMW tried that with their R1200C with mixed results. My take is that the US has a niche market for sport touring and BMW fights for that with the ST, FJR, and now the new Connie... it's just that not many riders look to the RT, GS, GT, etc. because they don't "get" sport touring/adventure touring... it's cruiser/chrome or plastic/racer replica or nothing else.

Computer Nerd

02-27-2008, 10:50 AM

I'm going to test drive one this year.:D

I just spoke with a K1200GT owner. Interesting discussion too! He says the bike has been great, but his friend has the 1200RT. And when they have traded bikes, the RT handles better, and holds a line much better than the GT.

He plans on getting rid of the GT, and after test riding an FJR, he plans on picking up the FJR. (Will all respect to the ST.)

zoomzoomzoom

02-27-2008, 11:48 AM

I test drove the FJR. It was a lot of fun but it doesn't work for two-up. My wife is always on with me. If I run to the store for a loaf of bread she wants to get on. :)

Computer Nerd

02-27-2008, 10:50 PM

Aww!

That's so cool. None of my female friends will get on the bike.

The ST would be a lot better for two up than the FJR.

I'm looking at either picking up an FJR, or a VFR as a second bike.

The expense of keeping a BMW is just sounding less and less thrilling.

Plus there's tools required for servicings that are not made available to non BMW Motorrad technicians.

FOG

02-28-2008, 12:40 AM

JDP,

I wouldn't service an RT mainly because of BMW's warranty restrictions and the fact that BMW are far less forgiving or flexible than Honda when it comes to service and service records.

No company can MAKE you go to a dealer for service. If you do it yourself, just keep receipts. I also documented the services with a few digital camera shots of the odometer, the oil, and the valve covers off.

I ride an '04 R1100S, pushing 30K miles and to date have spent $0 for service, aside from oil and filters. Heck, you can adjust the valves at a rest stop on the side of the road in about 30 minutes if you were so inclined. Dealer maintenance may be costly, but if you are the least bit mechanically inclined, no problem. Oh, should I mention I can have the rear wheel off in less then 2 minutes!

Pros and cons to all bikes, but maintenance is not a con for a boxer.

Reiner Kappenberger

02-28-2008, 02:09 PM

No company can MAKE you go to a dealer for service. If you do it yourself, just keep receipts. I also documented the services with a few digital camera shots of the odometer, the oil, and the valve covers off.

I ride an '04 R1100S, pushing 30K miles and to date have spent $0 for service, aside from oil and filters. Heck, you can adjust the valves at a rest stop on the side of the road in about 30 minutes if you were so inclined. Dealer maintenance may be costly, but if you are the least bit mechanically inclined, no problem. Oh, should I mention I can have the rear wheel off in less then 2 minutes!

Pros and cons to all bikes, but maintenance is not a con for a boxer.

There is only one problem with that on the BMW. For any warranty claim you need to provide the computer system printout that is taken during regular service. Unfortunatly unlike cars this is a proprietary system and a special ($$$) computer is needed to obtain this printout.

Unless you have a large number of BMW bikes to service. The dealer is the only option to maintain warranty.

Reiner

gnorts

02-28-2008, 02:12 PM

I think that goes against implied warranty law in most states.

FOG

02-28-2008, 03:13 PM

I think that goes against implied warranty law in most states.

I does in NY. I use to be employed in the Auto industry many moons ago, and I know back as far as the 80's that a manufacturer could not deny warranty coverage as long as there was records of maintenance. A lot of dealers were trying harder to squeeze out independent repair shops, than to just make their customers happy, and were, with the backing of the manufacturers, telling customers that they had to service at an authorized dealer.

Not so, just show you complied with the recommended maintenance and you are good to go. Even if the computer printout was not available, they would have to prove that the failure would NOT have happened if some readings from the data system could have prevented the failure, and I cannot think of any failures that would be "preventable".

zoomzoomzoom

02-28-2008, 03:52 PM

There is only one problem with that on the BMW. For any warranty claim you need to provide the computer system printout that is taken during regular service. Unfortunatly unlike cars this is a proprietary system and a special ($$$) computer is needed to obtain this printout.

Unless you have a large number of BMW bikes to service. The dealer is the only option to maintain warranty.

Reiner

Urban legend.....
According to my BMW dealer, one of the largest in the country, that's not how it works.
The service manager did suggest that I keep receipts and records. I did the same with my ST.

dduelin

02-28-2008, 08:00 PM

Urban legend.....
According to my BMW dealer, one of the largest in the country, that's not how it works.
The service manager did suggest that I keep receipts and records. I did the same with my ST.

Do it yourself wrenching works fine with the R bikes but the current K bike motor has a self-diagnostic computer onboard that tells the shop computer when the valves need adjustment. You can't check the valves without the shop computer and the last I checked you can't get one in the Crapsman Tool section at Sears, Roebuck & Co.. The BMW diagnostic system has been explained in several magazine articles on the '05 and newer K1200GT.

If you follow the R bike maintenance schedule at home you are replacing alternator belts, throttle cables, doing spline lubes, throttle body synchs, etc at mileages starting as low as 24K for some items. You can do it yourself but you have to do things not even in a Honda manual.

apopj

04-11-2008, 07:56 PM

Hello all,

I am new to this group but thought I would add my 2 cents... I currently have an '07 R1200GS. It is terrible. The exhaust had to be replaced due to plating coming off. Then the left heated grip quit working and back to the shop. Then the vibration became so bad it would buzz my hand to sleep. Back to the shop and after a week, there was a software upgrade. Took two extra days due to the fact that only a factory service tech could walk the mech through the process. And now, the low beam went out at 5K miles. Guess this is normal. First time in 60 motorcycles I have had to replace a bulb. Talking with the local BMW/Honda dealer about trading on an ST1300. Just way too many failures on the BMW's. Leaking rear seals, faulty ring antennas at the ignition, bulbs going out, clutches bad, splines wearing out, surging, bad starters, and who knows what else. I have had 6 BMW's and have had all of the above problems on these bikes. And the warranty.... $1800 for BMW extended to 5 years, $450 for the Honda to 7 years.
So, Monday will go to the dealers and get rid of this German high quality, overpriced junk and go with the ST. Hopefully I can ride it instead of waiting for repairs......
Just my thoughts... Hope the ST serves me better.... Jeff

EASt

04-12-2008, 07:15 AM

Having ridden both, I like them both for entirely different reasons. I wish you could mate the two in a mill somewhere and come out with the best qualities of both combined into one machine.

But, you know that the final offspring wouldn't please everyone either. ;-)

PS - Welcome to the board, APOPJ. Sorry your BMW was a dud.

Mark

04-12-2008, 08:24 AM

So, Monday will go to the dealers and get rid of this German high quality, overpriced junk and go with the ST. Hopefully I can ride it instead of waiting for repairs......
Just my thoughts... Hope the ST serves me better.... Jeff

Sounds like someone is going to have a big smile on their face soon...

Mark
P.S.
Bulbs will go on the ST too; and next winter you'll have to tighten the hose clamps because the 1st sign of cold weather on an ST1300 is green drips. These items I consider to be minor for such a nice bike...

leveredge

04-16-2008, 10:40 AM

I test road a BMW R12 (opposed twin with the fairing and such) last June when I was looking at new bikes. It was the bike I pined for almost as much as the ST. The FJR didn't fit me well and I didn't care for the Goldwing but my wife loved the 'wing pillion.
I liked how the R12 rode a lot. It was smoother than I expected. Very stable. That para-lever suspension rides good. I liked the up-right riding position very much. It had plenty of power for me. (Only got it up to 90 on the test ride. The guy from the shop following me didn't say a word when we got back) It felt lighter than my ST, more nimble. Things I liked about the R12 was the factory equipment that came with the bike. Cruise, heated grips, power outlets, top box. You can add all that stuff to the ST but the fact is that YOU have to add them. The ST13 list was almost $16K and the BMW list was a little over $19k so that's in the ballpark. My first motorcycle cost $150!
I didn't choose the BMW for many of the reasons stated. Dealer network, maintenance expense, final drive concerns. I don't have anything tangible for those reasons so it's just my guess. I had a tough time deciding. I bought a '07 ST13 and couldn't be happier. I think I would have liked the BMW R12 as well. Pretty comparable machines I think.