caught on camera: Minivan vs Motorcycle

[HeHatesTheseCans!]

I came across this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKFqpZ17H_w) today, thought you guys might be interested.

Caught on a police car's dash camera, a minivan plows into the rear of a bike. He ended up only bruised, according to the caption.

My apologies if it's already been posted.

[tricky_micky]

That is a naughty piece of film, dated 29-06-06 it may still be needed for evidencial purposes!

Just shows what the roads are like over here in the UK, full of mindless idiots in cages, that driver must have been totally out of his tree not seeing the biker in front and he should now be locked up and his driving licence burned!

For a change, the film shows that the biker was absolutely innocent, let us hope that the biker came through it okay and he takes the cage driver for every penny he has in the bank.

No soft shoe tactics on that one, the biker could have been killed as a result of the idiot in the van, and he would probably be leaving a family behind.

IMHO of course, but anyone driving this badly should not be out there on any roads in any country, that incident could quite easily have turned into a multi pile up and with terrible consequences.

Say no more about the sources of the Police Video!

[Elmo]

One just wonders how this sort of thing can happen. Amazing that he came through it as well as he did.

Elmo

[EagleSix]

Only bruised...very lucky....it appears maybe the van was traveling a bit faster than called for by the traffic and also appears the biker changed lanes in front of the van with unassured clear distance....

.

[snowmoer]

Check out some of the other ones. The links are to the right.

[STinner]

i'm sorry but i think the bike cut the cage off. if you look close the bike is at an angle when the minivan hits it causing the bike to spin counterclock-wise. i know........ we are never at fault. i watched it over and over again and as slow as i could move my mouse and that's what i think.

[hojo in sc]

Watch the video again; it looks that it was the Motorcyclist fault, he turned into a lane that was occupied without enough room behind him, the van tried to swerve into the right lane in order to (minimize) miss the motorcyclist.

[tricky_micky]

Only bruised...very lucky....it appears maybe the van was traveling a bit faster than called for by the traffic and also appears the biker changed lanes in front of the van with unassured clear distance....

.

George

Viewed the clip again for a couple of frames and yes, the biker may have changed lanes a little quickly prior to the incident. There is also an information sign ahead so maybe he was coming across the lanes from lane 2 to 1 in order to exit and the next intersection and misjudged his return. However, the car driver should be driving a little more carefully.

My biggest concern from the clip is how the heck has a Police Video clip got put on Utube for all to see, I would not think the Force in question would release such a clip because it may still be of evidencial value to a pending court case.

Unless permission from the Police Force and parties concerned has been granted, this clip is easily traceable back to the officer, or officers using that vehicle on this date and they could be facing discipline proceedings.

Let us hope I am wrong, but if this got back to the powers that be, the person that posted this clip could be in serious trouble!

[Burger]

I'm sure one of our 'constabulary' members can explain this better than me but in this country we are still supposed to have a law that makes undertaking illegal. I believe the only exception is on a multi lane road when you are in queues of traffic when you may move with your lane. On a road flowing as freely as that one was you are absolutely not allowed to be moving any faster in your lane than the lane to your outside. Whether the motorcyclist was slowing and changing lanes or not, the cage driver is very definitely in the wrong for UK laws.

The problem is that as real policemen, particularly traffic are being reduced and systematically replaced with stationary indiscriminate cameras, more and more people are openly flaunting the laws and couldn't care less.

I'm with Micky, such people should be banned from driving for life and it should be made impossible for them to drive illegally.

Regards,

[RibsST1300]

i'm sorry but i think the bike cut the cage off. if you look close the bike is at an angle when the minivan hits it causing the bike to spin counterclock-wise. i know........ we are never at fault. i watched it over and over again and as slow as i could move my mouse and that's what i think.

Yeah I agree, the bike moved into the far left lane right in front of the van and braked due to the car pulling into that lane, probably van going way too fast too...Everybody's fault! But the bike should of judged the closing speed better and been aware of the traffic in front of him...

[ST/SV]

Motorcyclist may have pulled in front of the van but the van sure wasn't paying attention. That gave me the creeps.

[GodFather]

Hmmm, looks like an unsafe lane change on the motorcyclist's part.

[tricky_micky]

The main thing is that everyone is fine after the incident.

My biggest concern is how the heck has a Police Video got put up on Utube!

This is a serious offence unless the Force concerned and all those involved agree to the principles of publication. Looking at the date of the video, it may still be of evidencial value.

I may be off the ball park on this one, but this clip really concerns me as to how it has been published and I need to be put at ease as to how it got there. Think about it, if it were you involved and you wanted to make a claim against a driver or rider, you know there is Police evidence of the incident as it has been caught on film by the Police Officers attending the scene.

If I am wrong, I publicly pass on my apologies to all concerned, but stuff like this really gets to me, not knowing where it came from but knowing the consequences

I had better get off this one because I have a bad feeling about it, and if a UK Cop has posted this without any premission, which I do not think they would get, then IMHO, they do not deserve to wear the same uniform I wore for just over 30 years.

Would YOU want this clip to be posted on Utube knowing that it could affect any claim you wish to make in the future.

I would like to know a little more on how and why it has been posted. If a Police Officer has film of any incident that may be of evidencial value, the original tape is kept under lock and key. A working copy is made for the officers use in compiling the evidence.

Eventually, as things get worked up for any court case, the other parties concerned are given a copy of all evidence that the prosecution (Police) may have, and that includes any video evidence.

Sorry, but IMO this clip should not have been posted!

[Blrfl]

My biggest concern from the clip is how the heck has a Police Video clip got put on Utube for all to see, I would not think the Force in question would release such a clip because it may still be of evidencial value to a pending court case.

Here in the US I'd imagine it would fall under public records laws. Does the UK have the same concept?

Quite clearly, those videos get released all of the time, or shows like World's Wildest Police Videos would be cancelled due to lack of material.

--Mark

[EagleSix]

I'm sure one of our 'constabulary' members can explain this better than me but in this country we are still supposed to have a law that makes undertaking illegal. I believe the only exception is on a multi lane road when you are in queues of traffic when you may move with your lane. On a road flowing as freely as that one was you are absolutely not allowed to be moving any faster in your lane than the lane to your outside. Whether the motorcyclist was slowing and changing lanes or not, the cage driver is very definitely in the wrong for UK laws.

The problem is that as real policemen, particularly traffic are being reduced and systematically replaced with stationary indiscriminate cameras, more and more people are openly flaunting the laws and couldn't care less.

I'm with Micky, such people should be banned from driving for life and it should be made impossible for them to drive illegally.

Regards,

Hi Dave,

It's hard to tell from the video about the other lanes (also I'm not sure how you refer to them, outside/inside!). The inside lane, furthest from the camera, traffic seems to be rolling along pretty good. This is the lane the motorcycle moved from. It doesn't appear the van is going any faster than that far lane, but again hard to tell. I think the van was moving faster than I would like assuming a cop car and stopped traffic, like it was along the side. I can tell the car that pulled out and several others were going much slower than the van, but still doesn't look like the van is going much faster than others in the (inside) far lane. Running the video in stop motion, there is less than a car length distance between the bike and the van when the bike changed lanes. And it does appear the van attempted a right swerve although not much.

Are your outside lanes considered to be next to the curb and the inside lanes considered to be those closest to opposing traffic? In general are your ourside lanes the slow(er) lanes and the inside lanes the fast(er)? Your law then says, "vehicles in the slow lane should not exceed the speed of vehicles in the fast lane"? Never been in the UK, so I'm asking to make sure I understand. Thank You.

.

[Burger]

Hi,

OK, as you know we drive/ride on the left. The inside lane is to my left the outside lane to my right. I can understand why you would think the inside lane would refer to the lane nearest the middle or inside of the road, but in fact it's the other way round. Most of our motorways and some A roads are 3 lane roads, so we refer to the lanes as the inside lane, middle lane and outside lane. Dual carriageways have just an inside and outside lane, and goodness knows how we deal with the six lane sections of the M25 lol.

When travelling on a multi lane road, you are supposed to travel in the left most (inside) lane and only use the outer lanes for overtaking. Once your overtaking is complete, you should move back to the leftmost lane you can.This is obviously fine for a road with 'normal' traffic volumes on it. Some roads at certain times are just too busy but then the traffic forms into queues in each lane and the rules are then different.

Apart from when travelling in queues of traffic when a road is extremely busy, under no circumstances should you ever under take someone. If you are in an inner lane and you realise you are catching a vehicle in an outer lane, it is your responsibility to slow. If you wish to pass that vehicle, you must pull into their lane behind them, then overtake them on the outside. Therefore, it should be perfectly safe for someone from an outer lane to pull into an inner lane because there is no 'normal' occasion that the inner lane is moving faster.

It sounds complicated in trying to describe it, but when all users of the roads obey these rules, they flow very well.

If you understand our road laws and our highway code you can see I hope that the driver of cage in the video was very definitely in the wrong. He should have seen the vehicles to his outside slowing and slowed himself accordingly.

Hope that helps,

[Peter]

The main thing is that everyone is fine after the incident.

My biggest concern is how the heck has a Police Video got put up on Utube!

This is a serious offence unless the Force concerned and all those involved agree to the principles of publication. Looking at the date of the video, it may still be of evidencial value.

I may be off the ball park on this one, but this clip really concerns me as to how it has been published and I need to be put at ease as to how it got there. Think about it, if it were you involved and you wanted to make a claim against a driver or rider, you know there is Police evidence of the incident as it has been caught on film by the Police Officers attending the scene.

If I am wrong, I publicly pass on my apologies to all concerned, but stuff like this really gets to me, not knowing where it came from but knowing the consequences

I had better get off this one because I have a bad feeling about it, and if a UK Cop has posted this without any premission, which I do not think they would get, then IMHO, they do not deserve to wear the same uniform I wore for just over 30 years.

Would YOU want this clip to be posted on Utube knowing that it could affect any claim you wish to make in the future.

I would like to know a little more on how and why it has been posted. If a Police Officer has film of any incident that may be of evidencial value, the original tape is kept under lock and key. A working copy is made for the officers use in compiling the evidence.

Eventually, as things get worked up for any court case, the other parties concerned are given a copy of all evidence that the prosecution (Police) may have, and that includes any video evidence.

Sorry, but IMO this clip should not have been posted!


Please do not panic

This clip was palyed on local telly (southwest UK) last week to coincide with the motorcycle safety forum that took place in devon at the same time

I did not see it on the telly myself but I saw on the BBC website and if you do a little search it come up but you can only see it if you select catche

I quote frrom the BBC site below


Crash video is warning to bikers
Bike accident
Tim Hortop called the accident stomach-churning
A police video of a serious motorbike crash near Plymouth is being used as a safety warning.

It shows the scene last June, when motorcyclist Tim Hortop, 42, from Mary Tavy near Tavistock in Devon, and a car collided on the A38 near Plymouth.

The video is now being used by road safety campaigners to increase awareness among motorcyclists of the need to wear safety equipment.

Mr Hortop escaped with only bruises in the accident.

He said: "There was a loud bang, everything went black and I came to with a WPc standing next to me asking me if everything was ok and telling me not to move.

"It was very shocking. It was one of those stomach-churning events where your legs turn to jelly and you feel cold all over.

Bike collision
Traffic police caught the action on video

"It was something that I would hate anyone else to go through."

The video, by a police traffic team who happened to be at the scene of another incident nearby, is being used by the Peninsula Motorcycle Forum in an effort to improve safety for riders.

The Forum includes Devon and Cornwall Police, both Devon and Cornwall County Councils, as well as Plymouth City Council, Torbay Council and the Highways Agency.

Police are not investigating the incident any further.

Original (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/5318980.stm)

I with what seems like the Majority think that he cut the guy up to get into the layby..I believe he had seen an incident further back the road that he intended telling the police about......

I am Surprised Mick that you have never heard about the Forum seeing as you are in the Business

Forum (http://www.devon-cornwall.police.uk/pmf/aims/index.html)

Peter

[Bob Hughes]

When people are rubbernecking an accident all bets are off. There was a police car blocking the left lane, a car had just pulled onto a moving road from a police stop and a bike or van was changing lanes a different speeds than the flow of traffic.

Sounds like a recipe for dissaster to me.

[EagleSix]

Hi,

OK, as you know we drive/ride on the left. The inside lane is to my left the outside lane to my right. I can understand why you would think the inside lane would refer to the lane nearest the middle or inside of the road, but in fact it's the other way round. Most of our motorways and some A roads are 3 lane roads, so we refer to the lanes as the inside lane, middle lane and outside lane. Dual carriageways have just an inside and outside lane, and goodness knows how we deal with the six lane sections of the M25 lol.

When travelling on a multi lane road, you are supposed to travel in the left most (inside) lane and only use the outer lanes for overtaking. Once your overtaking is complete, you should move back to the leftmost lane you can.This is obviously fine for a road with 'normal' traffic volumes on it. Some roads at certain times are just too busy but then the traffic forms into queues in each lane and the rules are then different.

Apart from when travelling in queues of traffic when a road is extremely busy, under no circumstances should you ever under take someone. If you are in an inner lane and you realise you are catching a vehicle in an outer lane, it is your responsibility to slow. If you wish to pass that vehicle, you must pull into their lane behind them, then overtake them on the outside. Therefore, it should be perfectly safe for someone from an outer lane to pull into an inner lane because there is no 'normal' occasion that the inner lane is moving faster.

It sounds complicated in trying to describe it, but when all users of the roads obey these rules, they flow very well.

If you understand our road laws and our highway code you can see I hope that the driver of cage in the video was very definitely in the wrong. He should have seen the vehicles to his outside slowing and slowed himself accordingly.

Hope that helps,

OK Dave, now I’m keeping up! Thank You for the excellent explanation....

…..so hypothetical, if the van was not speeding in the inside lane, and the motorcyclist had slowed during lane change from the outside lane (creating the disparity in speed) would the motorcycle rider then be at some fault by changing lanes with insufficient clear distance? ….or, does the motorcyclist in this incident still claim some fault to the crash because he/she failed to have clear distance even though the van was speeding? Thanks again Dave for your input....and Mick or any other UK riders, UK police or former UK police, please feel free to chime in.

.

[Burger]

OK Dave, now I’m keeping up! Thank You for the excellent explanation....

…..so hypothetical, if the van was not speeding in the inside lane, and the motorcyclist had slowed during lane change from the outside lane (creating the disparity in speed) would the motorcycle rider then be at some fault by changing lanes with insufficient clear distance? ….or, does the motorcyclist in this incident still claim some fault to the crash because he/she failed to have clear distance even though the van was speeding? Thanks again Dave for your input....and Mick or any other UK riders, UK police or former UK police, please feel free to chime in.

.

OK, there is difference between responsibility and blame in the legal sense. I would agree that the motorcyclist seemed to be going very slowly when they changed lanes, although we don't know why. Perhaps their engine had died and they were heading for the hard shoulder... which by the way is where the police car was parked. You can see this because we have different styles of lines between lanes indicating the use of the lane, and at night by the way, different colored cats eyes. The hard shoulder is the inside most lane, where one exists, for vehicles to pull over onto in the event of a break down etc.

So, I guess you could say that the motorcyclist was perhaps riding irresponsibly by slowing so much and in that shares some responsibility for the accident. However, regarding blame, it was 100% with the cage driver. This is because there is a simple rule in this country and that is if you rear end another vehicle it is your fault. It doesn't matter what the circumstances are, it is your responsibility as a driver/rider to react to hazards in front of you and to drive in such a manner that you can always stop if the vehicle(s) in front of you require you to do so. As I've explained, on a multi lane road you should not be driving any faster than the vehicles in the lane to your outside, and if they slow, you should slow too... remember, undertaking is illegal.

So, in my mind, and of course there are many unknowns, but it appears to me blame for the accident was 100% with the cage driver...

1. He was undertaking or at least preparing to undertake the motorcyclist.

2. He was driving at an innappropriate speed for the hazards in front of him.

3. He rear ended the bike.

The chances are he was distracted by the police car and I agree this together with rubber necking is a recipe for disaster, but that doesn't remove the responsibility or blame from the guilty party. A genuine accident on the roads is extremely rare... more often than not they are caused by impatience and carelessness.

Regards,

[EagleSix]

~snip~snip~

So, I guess you could say that the motorcyclist was perhaps riding irresponsibly by slowing so much and in that shares some responsibility for the accident. However, regarding blame, it was 100% with the cage driver. This is because there is a simple rule in this country and that is if you rear end another vehicle it is your fault. It doesn't matter what the circumstances are, it is your responsibility as a driver/rider to react to hazards in front of you and to drive in such a manner that you can always stop if the vehicle(s) in front of you require you to do so. As I've explained, on a multi lane road you should not be driving any faster than the vehicles in the lane to your outside, and if they slow, you should slow too... remember, undertaking is illegal.

~snip~snip~

Regards,

Thanks Dave, that explains the difference for me from the US and the UK, although there are of course similarities.

In the US we have the same general rule, if you rear end someone you are at fault, based on un-assured clear distance laws, however we also consider mitigating circumstances. It's kind of like French law, if you hit someone in the rear, you are immediately presumed to be guilty of un-assured clear distance, unless you can prove extenuating circumstances.

For example, I rear ended a guy and was not sited, the other driver was sited for careless driving (actually reckless and they kicked it down to careless). The assured/un-assured clear distance law, in general, covers a multitude of situations and can be used against another in varying degrees. Although most crashes/accidents are pretty straight forward, many have multiple contributing factors which are taken into account; right-of-way (a big one in Arizona), un-assured clear distance, failure to control, excessive speed, etc.

This crash took place in the UK, so I will now view it according to your laws. Thank You.

.

[tricky_micky]

Please do not panic

This clip was palyed on local telly (southwest UK) last week to coincide with the motorcycle safety forum that took place in devon at the same time


I am Surprised Mick that you have never heard about the Forum seeing as you are in the Business

Forum (http://www.devon-cornwall.police.uk/pmf/aims/index.html)

Peter

Peter.

Thanks for the info, it does make me feel better because of what may have been some serious allegations. So thanks again, I feel a lot better.

I dont get chance to visit other forums, this is about my limit due to not having much spare time :) And I am supposed to be retired :D