Questions for MSF RC's

[GRN]

Just joined the ranks of the certified today... man, been a long three weeks... still not feeling 100% on the range, and have to believe I'm not alone/the first.

Seems like spending some time on the range as a RA or just observing a few different seasoned coaches in action through a few weekends might really help bring some of that around while not being in the barrel. I still have to take the BRC too :D.

Would really appreciate hearing of others experiences, TIA :)

[illzoni]

GRN,

That sounds pretty normal to me.

I firmly believe the new BRC is much easier to 'coach' than the old RSS was to 'instruct'. Just read the guide/cards. Ask LCQs. Have fun.

Congrats,
Jon

Jon Ransom
Ventura, CA
STOC 063
MSF RiderCoach (www.msf-usa.org)
current: 91 SSM-ST1100 (new 40A alt)
former: 85 Vulcan, 93 ST1100A, 96 VFR, 89 HawkGT
www.illzoni.com/bikes

[DJDST1300]

Congratulations!! You are definitely not alone. After coming out of the IPW many RC's feel the same way. If you have not taken a BRC, you would probably benefit from "sitting in on / taking" one with an experienced set of RC's. You will be amazed at what you pick up now that you know what they are looking for.

You will definitely benefit from Range Aiding or just "hanging out" with some experienced RC's, most of us are more than happy to help out the "new guys".

Feel free to contact me with any questions you may have. I have been an instructor, (now Rider Coach) for a little over 13 years now.

[HankSTer]

Hey GRN,
I realtively recently went through this also. It was an interesting experience. The person (company) that sponsered me (and he sponsers alot of people - they come and go quite a bit), requires you to do alot of "pre work" prior to being certified. This means work for him for free btw.

I'm sure the point is to be sure you can do the work, that your interest is there, that you know what your getting yourself into, etc. But I know of at least one person that balked early on because of this.

So first, for me, I'd witnessed alot of RC's in action and been a range aid for many many hours prior to becoming certified... all for free. And it was required to take the BRC prior to any of this, which was also on my tab. And I had to stay in a hotel for 2 nights to accomplish this part of it, just after a hurricane in Pensacola, impossible to find a room, only in the very expensive hotels.

But getting back to your question on the range part of it. Although I aced the test, well ok except for 2 crappy feet in the stopping distance, I did so because I rode an enduro in the uturn box. It was really during subsequent practicing I did when coaching that I learned to 'counter weight' properly in the box. I'd say you will improve for sure as time goes on.

My initial classes were pretty nerve racking, there's so much to remember. And it's very important the c1 you work with, especially at first. Also the sponsor you work for... in that do they care more about moving the most number of people through or more about good training?

I've heard stories of some sponsers that are only in it for the money, and do a terrible job. I remember taking the class about 6 yrs ago, when first getting back into riding. Shortly after I found myself in numerous corners almost crashing, I didn't learn proper cornering technique. It's really since becoming an instructor that I better understand it.

So good luck with it. Keep in mind that some of the other instructors are basically old cruiser riders, and while they manage to get around on a bike, they really dont understand the key things. Find some that are really competent riders and seek their advice if you need to.

regards and best wishes,

[GRN]

Thanx folks. I figured I wasn't alone here...

I was sponsered by the State of NH DMV/Dept. of Safety, and went through a fairly significant screening process before being invited to do the RCP, when they sponser you they basically pick up the tab, so they only invite those they feel confident will succeed.

My impression of the program here emphsises quality, making sure objectives are met, meeting the standards of the MSF and not just using it as a marketing tool/brand to get the #'s in. The three RCT's I had are all very dedicated guys that take it very seriously on and off the range, and I'm for sure better for the time I've spent with them over the last three weeks. After a few wounds finish healing, I'll probably even like them :p: ... I know they're just doing their job. One of them is an ST'er that spends some time here.

I have yet to take the BRC, and I believe it's a requirement with the State before I can teach it. I'm looking forward to it first thing next season as a refresher. I'm going to talk to our program coordinator about some more observation opportunity before being paired with a mentor for a class.

Anyone want to share any war stories? I got to catch my first clutch dump as it sailed between two other riders in staging this weekend, that woke me up a bit :eek:... I can only imagine how much of that iceburg there is left to see.

[Northeast Rider]

Congratulations Greg, giving has a way of coming back, five fold. Win win for all involved. Wish you the best,

Brian

[GRN]

Thanks Brian... already got a taste this weekend even while in the barrel, have some interesting experiences to share with ya'll over a beer Friday night.

[newbornst1300]

Congratulations on your accomplishment Greg and I can't wait to hear some of your stories this weekend.

[Wolvie]

Welcome to the ranks!

Read the cards.

Know the curriculum.

Understand the reasons for the exercises.

Ask questions.

And when you are unsure...read the cards again.

Like motorcycling itself, coaching the range is something you develop. we can explain and analyze for hours here...but without the feel gained from experience, it means very little.

Just remember one important factor. Never lose sight of the perspective of the student. What can become a mundane job for you is still a life-changing experience for the student. You are imparting knowledge, skills and tips that may well last for the entire riding career of a person. Give them what they deserve to have...good, productive information.

[motomac]

Congratulaions. In Ohio we have to take a BRC within a year PRIOR to getting into the IP. The hardest part I found to do was analyze what the student was doing wrong, and convey to them what to do to correct it. I started in 1988 with the old RSS and when the BRC came in, I was so glad not to have to coach the sharp turns!!!! But with all this time working with different RC's, it is very rewarding. You will learn each class you are involved in whether you are an RA or an RC.

[HankSTer]

I agree with Wolvie 100%, some very helpful info there.

I always point out that initially, we just want to learn to start and stop with control. So make clear the clutch isn't an "on off" switch, it's a gradient light switch.

When stopping, "whats the first thing we want to do?" Pull in the clutch!! so many beginners forget about that, and when it happens too much it destroys their confidence.

when teaching the cornering, I like to ask "how do you determine how much to slow?". The handbook does a pretty good job of describing a somewhat complicated process. But it's impossible to know how much to slow if you aren't looking through the turn as far as you can *before* you are in it. Only then can you judge the radius and proper speed to keep a steady throttle and roll on when you see the exit.

And like Wolvie says, just read the cards, everything that needs to be said is said right there. I see rider coaches interjecting so much of themselves in the instructions, it's like they want to be sure they didn't miss anything so they babble on and on and then just confuse people and give them *way* more info then they can process at one time.

Enjoy it GRN, most students really appreciate it when you put the effort into being a good instructor.

regards,

[Wolvie]

One more thing I wish to interject...

I have seen RiderCoaches in the past who coach the exercise and not the technique. This is a very bad thing to do. You are not suppossed to coach to successful completion of the exercise. You are there to impart and coach proper technique.

If say during the cornering exercise, a student performs it flawlessly regarding speed and position, but during the entire time the student is looking down, covering the front brake, knees are away from the tank, etc...then you are not imparting the proper goals of the exercise. It is better for them to use correct form and perform less accurately than to allow them to use bad form and successfully complete the exercise.

Remember garbage in...garbage out.

They will learn on their own time to sharpen up and get better at the skill if they have good form. If they have bad form, then they will most likely have a really bad day if something unexpected happens on the street.

[DataHawk]

Congratulations. In Texas we must range aide a minimum of 4 times, take the BRC within a year of the RC school all before we are allowed to attend the school.
Two weeks ago I congratulated my class on not dropping a bike over the two days. I then went and did the demo on the 90 & 135 degree curves and at the apex of the 135 the bike went one way and I went the other. Did a bone inventory and decided I wasn't hurt so hopped back on the bike and ran the demo again. This time the back wheel slid out about 2' but I recovered and straighted the bike. Our range is on a blacktop parking lot and it is black! Right at the apex of the turn was a nice big oil slick. I moved the turn a few feet over but by then my students were in a panic mode. We ran that exercise for quite a while till they got comfortable with the turns and knew that what happened was the exception and not what was going to happen to them.

[GRN]

Congratulations. In Texas we must range aide a minimum of 4 times, take the BRC within a year of the RC school all before we are allowed to attend the school.

I then went and did the demo on the 90 & 135 degree curves and at the apex of the 135 the bike went one way and I went the other. Did a bone inventory and decided I wasn't hurt so hopped back on the bike and ran the demo again.

I like the pre-course RA requirement, that makes a lot of sense, and would have demystified a lot of valuable time for me and the others in my prep. Hmmm, I'll have to throw that one out there for consideration here. Thanks.

Yikes... that's a funky curve ball for sure man, can see that taking some recovery time to get folks to put it behind them, glad you're OK too :)

[Raven]

Congrats on the first step to MORE PRACTICE :D

Here are some tips that help me when I first started out:

Definitely sign in to RETSORG and read all of the BEST PRACTICES, you'll get tons of great pointers there.

When in doubt, talk less! The less talking you do the more involved the students are in the classroom sections and the more riding time they have in the range sections.

On a standard size range, the first and last cones for the weaves (on the sides) line up with the outer ends of the clutch control lane lines (painted on the interior of the range). Once you've got that, setting up the weaves is easy.

No matter how long you're a coach, always check in with the other coach between exercises just to make sure you're both on the same page regarding reverses, staging, and pre-staging.

When in doubt, send them to parking.

Read the card, only read the card, don't embellish, read the card.

Practice your demos on all of the different brands and styles used in the class. Try to rotate through the bikes in the demos (it helps get rid of "there's something wrong with the bike" as an excuse).

Coach in blips not in lectures - if you're talking they aren't riding.

Key blips (pick one for each go round):
• head and eyes up
• turn your head
• eeeeaaaassssseeee out the clutch
• roll throttle
• knees in
• head and eyes up
• turn your head
• relax elbows
• both brakes
• slow ---------- lookpressroll
• more press
• more head turn
• look farther ahead

Try and make a point of noticing one good thing and one thing to improve so a typical coaching exchange is:
• Great slow, now more press, more roll
• Great eye position, now keep your knees in
• Great posture, now more head turn
• Great first try, now smoother throttle

Keep them moving - the more rotations through the exercise the better they get but there is a point of diminishing return so don't run exercises long (talk less = ride more)

The more positive you are, the more enthusiastic and successful they are.

Occassionally let them coach themselves (especially on the second range part):
• How'd that one feel?
• What happened that time?
• What could be better?
• Where were your eyes?

Debrief by asking questions instead of giving lectures:
• What did y'all notice in that exercise?
• What happened if you rolled off?
• What was an "ah ha" moment?

And finally, one of the most important things a guy who'd been doing MSF for years said to me when I first started was this:
Every time you do a class you've been given the honor of helping 12 people realize a dream. Some of the people in the class have dreamt of riding a motorcycle for a very long time and this is a very big deal for them. The people sitting in the room are in a very vulnerable place because they're sharing their dream with you and trusting you to help them attain it. It's our job to honor them and honor their dream. We are not gatekeepers, we are door openers. The more positive and friendly we are, the easier it is for folks to come through the door. If you start feeling impatient or annoyed, remember it's not about you - it's about them and their dream. Attaining a dream should be fun and rewarding experience not a hellish one.

Good luck and have fun.

[sherob]

Every time you do a class you've been given the honor of helping 12 people realize a dream. Some of the people in the class have dreamt of riding a motorcycle for a very long time and this is a very big deal for them. The people sitting in the room are in a very vulnerable place because they're sharing their dream with you and trusting you to help them attain it. It's our job to honor them and honor their dream. We are not gatekeepers, we are door openers. The more positive and friendly we are, the easier it is for folks to come through the door. If you start feeling impatient or annoyed, remember it's not about you - it's about them and their dream. Attaining a dream should be fun and rewarding experience not a hellish one.

That's priceless! ;)

[vossman]

Congratulations. In Texas we must range aide a minimum of 4 times, take the BRC within a year of the RC school all before we are allowed to attend the school.
Two weeks ago I congratulated my class on not dropping a bike over the two days. I then went and did the demo on the 90 & 135 degree curves and at the apex of the 135 the bike went one way and I went the other. Did a bone inventory and decided I wasn't hurt so hopped back on the bike and ran the demo again. This time the back wheel slid out about 2' but I recovered and straighted the bike. Our range is on a blacktop parking lot and it is black! Right at the apex of the turn was a nice big oil slick. I moved the turn a few feet over but by then my students were in a panic mode. We ran that exercise for quite a while till they got comfortable with the turns and knew that what happened was the exception and not what was going to happen to them.

Did the same thing last week. Got into the corner on one of the smaller Kawi Eliminators, hit a depression in the asphalt and heard the grinding of the peg for a split second. Next I heard a much lower sound that turned out to be the frame digging a 3/4 inch deep hole in the asphalt. The bike slowed and seemed to become weightless and I was on the ground.
Did the demo one more time just a bit slower this time. Made for good conversation during the debrief.

[GRN]

Did the same thing last week. Got into the corner on one of the smaller Kawi Eliminators, hit a depression in the asphalt and heard the grinding of the peg for a split second. Next I heard a much lower sound that turned out to be the frame digging a 3/4 inch deep hole in the asphalt. The bike slowed and seemed to become weightless and I was on the ground.
Did the demo one more time just a bit slower this time. Made for good conversation during the debrief.

Hmmm.... we're required to ride demo's "at novice speeds"... :rolleyes:

[Raven]

Hmmm.... we're required to ride demo's "at novice speeds"... :rolleyes:

Yep, the easiest way to make it look easy is to take it easy!

I usually do the demos concentrating on modeling where I'd like all the students to be by the end of the exercise - "high competency" - occassionally I've dragged a peg (especially if I'm demo-ing on the little 250 Viragos on exercise 7) but I try very hard to keep it dialed back. So demos should aim for "high competency" versus "experienced mastery" while students progress with "minimal competency" as spelled out by MSF.

I also tend to really exagerate all of my movements so they can see what is happening. I tend to brake earlier than I would "normally" do in setting up for a corner. I make a point of really drifting to the outside. I tilt my helmet back a little farther than I typically wear it to exagerate a head-up/eyes-up position. I make sure that head turns have a very clear "snap" to them. You get the idea.

I've also discovered that doing exercises 6 & 10 a little quicker is beneficial for the students as they approach the weaves and u-turns with enough momentum to get them through. If they are going too slowly they tend to tip over (and sometimes RCs do, too).

[illzoni]

Hmmm.... we're required to ride demo's "at novice speeds"... :rolleyes:

GRN,

You're catching on already!

You're exactly right. Demo time is not the time for RCs to demonstrate their riding skill. Rather, it's time to demonstrate their teaching skill. The difference is subtle, but important. The function of the demo is to show certain techniques to the students, as well as path of travel.

Try to keep in the back of your mind, "What would I be coaching this rider if it weren't me?" My last check of the cards before I ride a demo is the coaching points so I make sure to demonstrate everything the other coach is reading.

BTW - I just realized we're getting pretty deep into this discussion. Would it be more appropriate to take this to the MSF Topica Forum? I don't have access from work, can someone else refer GRN?

Thx,
Jon

[Wolvie]

BTW - I just realized we're getting pretty deep into this discussion. Would it be more appropriate to take this to the MSF Topica Forum? I don't have access from work, can someone else refer GRN?

Thx,
Jon
Well, I think that he is getting good information and others here that have an interest in the program could probably benefit from the discussion...

Just my 2 cents...

[Raven]

To sign on to RETSORG go to:

www.retsorg.org

You'll need your RC number to register for the first time and to login.

[GRN]

I agree with both... would love to dig into MSF & RC specific resources, and I know there are others here who are interested... and as far as demographics go, what better crowd to give some exposure to potentially generate some new interest? The problem I may have in the short term with the MSF specific sites is access... my cert. papers may not have even made the mail yet, the MSF mothership doesn't know I exist at this moment as far as I know.

edited... oops, the raven beat me to it... was pretty sure there was a login.

[Bones]

Some good advice my Dad gave me when I started teaching college courses years ago was to always remember that it's not about me, it's about the students.

So, not speaking as an RC but as the son of a professor, the brother of a teacher and a teacher myself, I think the comments posted about your being "a door opener, not a gatekeeper" are dead on target.

You're an enabler. So enable away...you'll be awesome.:clap2:

[Wolvie]

Some good advice my Dad gave me when I started teaching college courses years ago was to always remember that it's not about me, it's about the students.

So, not speaking as an RC but as the son of a professor, the brother of a teacher and a teacher myself, I think the comments posted about your being "a door opener, not a gatekeeper" are dead on target.

You're an enabler. So enable away...you'll be awesome.:clap2:
This is a precise example as to why it is good to continue this discussion here.

Adult education is a much bigger world than just rider training. We all can benefit from the exchange of ideas as opposed to job-specific discussion.

[Kempo-STer]

Greg way to go man!!! Another door kicked open by courage and determination....

FWIW...I handed in my application for ridercoach last week:)

Ken who is a range director has been mentoring me and encouraging me to throw my hat in.

You guys have also been an inspiration.

See you in a couple of days Greg...
Agree with Wolvie, Keep the discussion here...

[GRN]

Thanx Bro, see you in Lincoln about 10:15 Friday... really looking forward to this ride man, all my miles for the last month have been slab to work and back, slab to Concord for RCP and back, and lots of little orange cones riding a stew of little 250's............ BIG need of three days of Mtn. twisties on V4, BIG! Give me a shout if ya'll need anything for the girls.

FWIW, I think you would make an awesome coach dude, hope you can get hooked up.

[RideCoach]

Congratulations, if it is any consolation I have been doing this for 7 years and I am still nervous. I love and hope to do it for years to come.
Read as much as you can about learning/teaching/and language it will help you immensly.
Also, go to RESTORG.org and get on the msfcurriculim list-- there are always questions being asked/answered. Also, check out Best Practices.
RideCoach