ST's Unstable oh no!!

[alphafang]

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p313/alphafang/MC1018.jpg

I went on a i2i motorcycle control course yesterday, as any one in the uk will tell you the weather was far from good. The met office were issuing warnings of snow and winds gusting up to 60mph. I took my son James on the pillion so he could use the camera. The journey to the unused air base was not pleasant. We were blown about with avengence, the snow covered the visor and shield not really nice at all. I felt James tensce up a couple of times, and when we arrived at the open to the elements airfield he said 'Dad I really wish I had followed in the car' I knew he wasn't happy.
I took the course run by two great guys Thomas and Domonic. It's a strange course it sort of playes with your mind, it becomes apparenrt that how you percive the world isnt the way it is...I could try to explain but I would fail I will leave it to the pro's. If any on can attend the course details on the web site, do it. I'ts a truley amazing experiance.
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkmZYZv5FfLsARzRXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTB2bDEyNXM 5BGNvbG8DdwRsA1dTMQRwb3MDNwRzZWMDc3IEdnRpZAM-/SIG=11lo27d3l/EXP=1174386648/**http%3a//www.i2imca.com/page14.html

When James and I got home from the course, James said
'Dad I just rode home on a different bike with a different rider, it's really unbeliveable' I know what he means.
I know the idea of the forum is to pass on help but I can't do that in ways that you can grasp, the course tells you things that you possibly dont belive are true then get's you out on the bike doing it.
I've added a couple of pics and remember cross winds were gusting on the air field to an extent that you had to lean into them to make headway and that was on foot one chap was blown from his feet, when he turned his back into the wind. It was a begger of a day weather wise.
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p313/alphafang/MC1036.jpg
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p313/alphafang/MC1xAvoid049.jpghttp://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p313/alphafang/MC1xAvoid049.jpg

[Carl_T]

OK, I know it's always said it's not true without a photo, but please, you can't post those photos without some mild general explanation of what you were doing and why. Especially those two guys laying on the ground to mark the apex :eek: :p:

[Burger]

They weren't marking an apex, they'd just been blown there from 50 feet away :D

[Computer Nerd]

You are the Stig. :)

I'm loving the color of that 11, especially with the matched top case.

[alphafang]

You are the Stig. :)

I'm loving the color of that 11, especially with the matched top case.


Thanks I take as a compliment cheers,
Dave
your not far wrong matey you will know what the conditions were like.

I will try to explain what's going on. The standing up stuff was the results of grasping the idea that a bike is a very stable thing with it's two massive gyros keeping it upright, and even at slow speeds with the engine doing the same job, you cant push a bike over from the side when it's moving. The lads on the floor were the instructors, the exercise was avoidance at speed using counter steering, it just showed how much faith they had in their training and gave us more confidence the plank was just a bit of fun...but very tempting. The shot of the bike going over the wood (if you look close the back wheel is just off the floor) that ws an exercise to show how to handle hitting unavoidable objects. It's all down to the mind set, you can ride over anything provided that the forks dont hit. It's all to do with loading the forks and then unloading under acceleration to give maximum travel.
I just hope that any body who can, takes my advice and gets there selves on one of the courses.
ADDED just realised not put the pic of the timber in the road I'll post it as soon as I get it on the net.

[rasputin]

My take on the photo of the two guys on the ground is that they have made you a 'braced two man ramp'..you were supposed to ride up and over the first guys goulies and up the plank he is holding..the second guy is bracing to keep the ramp at a good angle for your launch!
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p313/alp

[pan.rider]

these course,s look really good have you got any info on them not long after i got my pan i had a close encounter with a wooden pallet falling off a lorry i was behind so any tips on avoiding these situations is life saving

[blueSTormer]

Paul, I love the pics AND the color of the bike. Is that a shadow I see on the ground in one of the pics? How did that happen!;)

[alphafang]

Here's the pic of the back wheel off the floor after learning the correct way to deal with unavoidable obstacles
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p313/alphafang/MC1xAvoid086-1.jpg
Rasputin heres one where one of the instructors chickened out, it was tempting, but these are real nice guys I didn't want to try it with 800+ pounds,
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p313/alphafang/MC1xAvoid056.jpg
Pan.rider check out the link to their site are you on the uk?
blueSTormer yes mate it is a shadow one of those English weather days, snow stops, rainbow appears, gets blown away by the wind, then it hails for good luck.

[Raven]

So, for those of us on the Western side of the pond who may not be able to experience what is clearly a break-through course, what did you do?

I know specifics may be difficult but us mere mortals would love more details.

[Clair]

Let me start off by saying GREAT pics and nice write up! I'm Envious of the course you took ... NOT the weather mind you ... lol

Second, let me say ... ST1100's ROCK !!!!! And no, I'm not biased :-)

okay, so maybe I'm a bit dense but would you mind re-explaining the purpose of the gents on the ground. Avoidance how? What was your goal, what were you supposed to do in that exercise?

I think the standing up thing is REALLY cool ... I'm not sure I have the guts to try it! lol I know intellectually that it makes logical sense and all that but still ... not sure I could do it. Had you done that before or was this course your first time standing up like that? How fast and slow were you going in those exercises?

[Carl_T]

Thanks for the clarification. I take it holding the board was in case you failed to avoid..... OUCH, that board wouldn't hide his face... ouch. :eek: I think in their place I'd be using cones rather than laying in front of a student's half ton of bike and rider :mrgreen:

I had my former ST1300 up to a goodly speed on the double lane empty interstate, set the throttle and rode a long ways (a mile or so) with no hands on the bars, including gentle bends. However I did notice that it tended to pull right a bit at low speeds without hands (changeable with knee/foot pressure), but still it pulled) probably due to the shaft drive. Did the 1100 pull right also riding in the lot? How fast were you going when standing up?

Very nice photos and write up.

[alphafang]

Thanks for the clarification. I take it holding the board was in case you failed to avoid..... OUCH, that board wouldn't hide his face... ouch. :eek: I think in their place I'd be using cones rather than laying in front of a student's half ton of bike and rider :mrgreen:

I had my former ST1300 up to a goodly speed on the double lane empty interstate, set the throttle and rode a long ways (a mile or so) with no hands on the bars, including gentle bends. However I did notice that it tended to pull right a bit at low speeds without hands (changeable with knee/foot pressure), but still it pulled) probably due to the shaft drive. Did the 1100 pull right also riding in the lot? How fast were you going when standing up?

Very nice photos and write up.

Hi Carl
the speeds ranged between 25 and 45mph, the board stunt was a confidence thing the instructors were showing their trust in us, and their training, and some trust it was, the avoidance work was about 35 to 40mph, as you say half a ton coming at you at that speed to within ten foot before countersteering out was some show of b***s on their part.
I found your comments on the right pull interesting, the theory taught was that the bike would keep a direct line, and it was so, we rode about 10mph at the slowest possibly less, I just wonder if the fact that we got up to a speed then either selected neutral or went up a couple of gears had any influence on this?? The shot of me standing up pointing to my right, was about 35mph I found that I could shift my weight about all I liked and the effect on the bike was near zero. We rode over pot holes in the runway at varying speeds stood up just to prove the bike would self right after a short head shake. That was possibly the hardest (if I can use the word) thing to actually get myself to do.
I'm still buzzing about all I took in, I had a ride to wales yesterday just for the hell of it and what a ride zero problems with cross winds, it's all about being relaxed on the bike and letting it do what it can do better than you can imagine.
Take care Carl
all the best
Paul

[Carl_T]

Paul,
I Haven't experienced the no hand pull on any of my bikes except the 1300. A few years back we discussed it on the forum and everyone with a 1300 who tried it in the discussion also experienced the pull. As far as I remember we kind of figured it to be an effect of the shaft drive. Remembering that discussion is the reason I asked you about the 1100. It's interesting the 1100 doesn't exhibit the pull, kind of puts the shaft drive theory into question.

The 1300 is exceptional at steering itself into the wind if you are loose on the bars. It is also a twitchy devil if you make the mistake of tightening your grip in the wind.

It looks like a good course, thanks for posting it up. :)

[DeSTy]

I'd love to know how having a shaft driving the bike, over a chain, effects the stability of the machine???.

I hear alot of people talking about bikes wandering because of the shaft drive, or having problems with them pulling one way of the other when doing a wheelie etc, again because of the shaft drive.

[BigTom]

Rotational Torque.

From Sir Issac:
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

If the shaft turns right (clockwise) the wheel wants to go left...Some shafties are much more prone than the ST. Honda has done a great deal of work dampening the shaft torque.

With a chain, the torque is applied in the same plane as the wheel/tire. It's still there, (Issac wouldn't lie) you can't feel it because the drive is going the same way.

[DeSTy]

Torque has nothing to do with it.

Rotating masses and inertia might come close, except the rotational mass of the drive shaft is almost insignificant compared to the rotational mass of the engine internals that are traveling in the same plane.

[NCST]

Torque has nothing to do with it.

Rotating masses and inertia might come close, except the rotational mass of the drive shaft is almost insignificant compared to the rotational mass of the engine internals that are traveling in the same plane.

The engine is balanced and it's net rotational effect is near zero but the shaft on the other hand does not have a device to counter it's effect so the near zero effect of the motor is affected by the shaft rotating which imparts effect to the bike as a whole.

[MeticulousRhino]

Thanks for the pictures you posted and your enthusiasm. I also want to add what a great paint job you have.

I am glad you enjoyed the course, I folllowed one myself previously and we had to ride over a car tyre, pick up tennis balls from a small cone and place them on the next cone... with the left and the right hand (not both at the same time though, that's for really advanced riders).

I have found these courses usually very good for building up confidence and enjoying oneself!

Since you are in the UK, maybe you've heard of the IAM or RoSPA. Both offer advanced riding tuition, usually for a very small fee. It takes time and dedication to advanced riding but is well worth it if such is your inclination.

It is the one thing I miss the most from the UK. I try to take a refresher course every year. I shall be in Bristol next week for a two day one to one course with an instructor.

Usually the instructors are ex-police and have a very high standard of riding... which I haven't found to be the case in France unfortunately.

Anyway, if anybody from the UK has the opportunity to do so, I would recommend advanced riding courses with these organisations. Beware though, there are many "advanced" courses run by private initiatives that aren't.

I took both my IAM and RoSPA tests and started training as an instructor. I left the UK in 1996 (gulp) and am no longer an advanced rider. I have much riding experience and have kept a lot, but only constant practice keeps up The Standard.

I enjoy motorcycling because it is a constant source of learning to me and all of these courses are a great way to have fun on the road whilst being safer.