Downshifting while emergency braking?

[Casey]

Do you downshift when emergency braking?
I've read 2 schools of thought on the subject and was wondering what others do.


The poll is related to downshifting to use engine braking to help you slow down in an emergency situation. Therefore as you downshift you are releasing the clutch to assist in breaking.

[fastflyer20]

Fo me this is not a yes/no
If your are REALLY in an emergency, not a quick braking/avoidance situation, do you downshift?
I pull in the clutch and brake like a mother.
I can always kick down the gears once I see the situation is under control.
Avoidance, etc is different. You have more time to react.
Anyone read Keith Code "Twist of the Wrist" - How are you spending your $10?

Your thoughts please...

[Mellow]

I voted NO because, truthfully, in an emergency I don't - I concentrate on pulling the clutch and jamming on the brakes...

However, I think you are supposed to and I try to practice so my instincts are to downshift while braking.

[sherob]

If it's a true emergency, I'm going to hit or come close, I skip the downshifting... I can click down after I stop. I'm trying to keep all mental aspects focusing on the "target" and using all brakes... LOL!!!

Getting caught by a quick light, evasive riding, or stopping quick, I down shift.

[ccryder]

In a real emergency braking situation you want as much braking as possible. That will not happen if you are down-shifting. There is always time to downshift once you have stabilized your speed, composure and the situation.

Sure glad this wasn't a survey about laying down your M/C to "avoid" an accident!

Neil S.

[motomac]

I didn't vote. In an emergency stop, the only thing I do different than a normal stop is apply the brakes to the maxium without skidding the tires. Everything else is the same. Pull the clutch in, down shift to first, left foot to the ground, ready to haul out of there if the guy behind me can't/doesn't stop.

[wjbertrand]

I might not engage the clutch between downshifts (i.e. keep it withdrawn or partially withdrawn) so as to avoid any possible lockup (yes you can momentarily lock the rear wheel, even with ABS) but I think it's important to be ready with the right gear. Things happen fast in an emergency.

[RTETR]

Same as the others, in an emergency I pull the clutch and grab as much of the ABS brakes I can get and then worry about what gear I was in. Doesn't happen often but when it does, Oh baby!

Under normal stopping conditions I do often gear down.

[HankSTer]

If you had a third option that said "under some circumstances". As already mentioned, you do want to be in a lower gear if needed to get away quickly, but no doubt, highest priority here is laying it down... errrr wait wrong board ;)

Regards,

[forgitaboutut]

seems that's a good way to lock the rear wheel up if your going too fast!
Then you've got another problem on your hands....

[Spencer]

I answered yes because I automatically clutch in and drop gears to match speed, dont even think about it, but........in a panic stop I don't
clutch out for engine braking, just drop gears so I can clutch out, gas, and
manuever when done with braking.
Several of the comments got me thinking (dangerous as that is)
Is the question really about dropping gears or engine braking?
For me, one would be yes, the other no?
Have I had too much coffee :coffee1:

Spencer

[motomac]

Maybe I wasn't quite clear when I said I pull the clutch in and downshift. Once the clutch is in I keep it in until the emergency stop is at a stop. I don't use the transmission as a means to help the brakes as that will indeed cause some rear tire skid.

[EagleSix]

I didn’t vote….

If you are talking about getting the shortest stopping distance on dry firm surfaces, it’s roll-off throttle while seating the front brakes, upright bike, increasingly firm/maximum front brake (some will also use rear brake in combination with front) while pressing and holding the clutch in.

An emergency stop could easily involve many other options which may not include stopping to a full stop and require some type of maneuvers after a partial maximum effort stop, then requiring an appropriate gear for the maneuver. Even then I think the pilot would have time to dump the shifter as much as needed to find the appropriate gearing for the desired maneuver.

I normally downshift when stopping, but during a maximum effort stop, I’ll deal with the gearing when the emergency is under control.

.

[GRN]

Yes, keeping the clutch in, in case I need emergency gassing.

And speaking of emergencies and gas... Kempo, what did you last weekend man... yikes! :eek:

[Rob Hephner]

In a real emergency braking situation you want as much braking as possible. That will not happen if you are down-shifting.

First of all, I am not sure how downshifting could possibly take away any braking power as neither your brake hand or foot is involved in downshifting...

Second, YES you need to downshift. Why, you ask?

The reason most people crash at the end of braking is because they are unable to apply power to move themselves out of the way of what they are about to hit. Collision avoidance includes braking and then controlled acceleration away from the impact zone. If you have not downshifted while decelerating you will not have the ability to keep the bike upright at the end. Try practicing emergency braking by ending the run with your feet on the ground....it is not the logical conclusion to the end of extremely hard braking.

Someone talked about Keith Code and managing the 10%. So tell me this...which is easier to manage, slowing yourself and then using power to move away from collision, or braking and then figuring out how to hold the bike up at the end....if you can. (Is there gravel, oil, fuel or other items on the ground?)

[ShinySideUpAZ]

Don't flame me but, . . . There is no such thing as an emergency stop. You will stop the bike in an emergency the same way you stop the bike in daily commuting. In an emergency muscle memory is at work. If you always downshift as you brake in your daily commuting you will do it in an emergency. I am not talking about engine braking. I am talking about taping down the gears as you are braking. What I am in the habit of doing is:

1) Smooth like butter, roll off throttle and apply first squeeze of front brake, this loads the front tire and flattens the contact patch.
2) If necessary begin righting bike
3) Pull in clutch
4) Apply first pressure of Rear Brake
5) While righting bike, applying progressively harder front break and rear brake i.e. balance traction/lean angle points. Here in lies the secret, as you bleed off speed you need less lean angle to stay on your line in the turn, as your lean angle decreases you have more traction points to give to braking.
6) Tap down gears as you bleed off speed.
7) Bike Stopped, I should be in 1st gear, clutch has been in since step 3
8) Foot down
9) Check mirrors and traffic for hazards,
10) If no hazards exist, poop myself, if hazards exist, get out of dodge, then poop myself.

The reason you tap the gears as you are bleeding off speed is; as you are bleeding off speed and the situation is changing, an escape path may be presented. You need to be able to immediatly stop breaking, blip the throttle to match engine speed, and release clutch to accelerate out of danger.

I did exactly this process, minus the pooping, a month ago. I was in northern Arizona riding twisties, SR260. Came around a curve at ~30 degrees lean angle. As I approched the apex I saw traffic stopped, car in opposit direction had run off road, an idiot motorcyclist in front had stopped in the middle of the road and parked his bike to render assitance.

When I saw him, in a panic, I did steps 1-6, scrubbed off enough speed and lean angle to steer around the parked bike.

I started forcing myself to use the process above 3 months ago after reading 'Sport Riding Techniques' by Nick Ienatsch and having a discussion about trailbreaking with my friend Don Orton of http://www.ridesmartmotorcycle.com/ Ride Smart Motorcycle training.

Everyday I forced myself to use the steps, now I can say, the emergency panic stoped proved, they are muscle memory. It wasn't until after I got out of the hazard and had time to reflect that I realized my training had worked. Without thinking, my body did what I had trained it to do.

[wjbertrand]

Agree 100% Mark. You don't know if you are going to be required to come to a complete stop or not in a panic/emergency situation, I think you need to have the right, or close to the right gear, ready to go if the situation changes. Before I developed the habit of always down shifting, I can recall a few cases where I spent what seemed like a long time trying to bang down through the tranny so I could get out of there. If you miss a gear, find a false neutral or stall the engine trying to get going in too tall a gear, it all becomes too much to handle in the time available. You're a sitting duck!

[AZST]

In emergency situations, I just press "A" :cool:

--Bryan
04ST1300A
:04biker:

[spd2918]

First of all, I am not sure how downshifting could possibly take away any braking power as neither your brake hand or foot is involved in downshifting...

Second, YES you need to downshift.



+1000

Train it. Train it. Train it:bow1: .

[ligito]

Some would say that a circumstance might prevail that would require you to use all of your time for stopping, rather than waste precious time on shifting.

Many factors, few options.

[Imrubicon]

[quote=ShinySideUpAZ;209837]Don't flame me but, . . . There is no such thing as an emergency stop. You will stop the bike in an emergency the same way you stop the bike in daily commuting. In an emergency muscle memory is at work. If you always downshift as you brake in your daily commuting you will do it in an emergency. I am not talking about engine braking. I am talking about taping down the gears as you are braking. What I am in the habit of doing is:

1) Apply first squeeze of front brake, this loads the front tire and flattens the contact patch.
2) If necessary begin righting bike
3) Pull in clutch
4) Apply first pressure of Rear Brake
5) While righting bike, if necessary, continue righting bike while applying progressively harder front break and rear brake i.e. balance traction/lean angle points
Here in lies the secret, as you bleed off speed you need less lean angle to stay on your line in the turn, as your lean angle decreases you have more traction points to give to braking.
6) Tap down gears as I bleed off speed.
7) Bike Stopped, I should be in 1st gear, clutch has been in since step 3
8) Foot down
9) Check mirrors and traffic for hazards,
10) If no hazards exist, poop myself, if hazards exist, get out of dodge, then poop myself.
quote]

Thats sounds about right

[Rob Hephner]

Some would say that a circumstance might prevail that would require you to use all of your time for stopping, rather than waste precious time on shifting.


Once again, how are you using time?

Pushing the lever down is done at the same time as you are braking, it does not add time to the process, nor does it require any physical resource that is needed elsewhere. As stated above you must train yourself to do this and once you do, it just happens.

If you can push down on the brake pedal, you can push down on the shifter peg, why would you not want to be as ready as possible when you get to the end of braking?

[EagleSix]

A lot of good information and technique is coming from some well trained and experience riders in this post.

I think there is an important distinction to make for those reading whom might not have a lot of training or experience, and that is the not so subtle difference between needing to get slowed down quick and needing to get stopped quick. I would refer to it as Emergency Stops and Full Performance Stops (alias….Panic Stop). Or, it could be termed Emergency Slowing to Evade or Emergency Full Stopping. Several other terms come to mind but I think that’s enough.

There is no doubt if you need to maneuver having the proper gearing may in fact be very detrimental to the success of the evasion. Here is where the habit of down shifting shines. Although during an emergency we might not down shift into the best gearing, it is most likely we will be in a better gearing than when the emergency started. It’s also possible, after letting off the brakes, the inertia left in forward motion is enough to complete the evasion but I would prefer to have a gear to power out if called for, especially at slower parking lot speeds.

The full performance stop (panic stop) has another element or perhaps better put, an extended element to the emergency. And, this Mark (no flame intended) is where I disagree with you…..in part.

Don't flame me but, . . . There is no such thing as an emergency stop. You will stop the bike in an emergency the same way you stop the bike in daily commuting. ~snip~

I understand your mindset (I think!), “Train-as-You-Ride and Ride-as-You-Train”, or “You will do as you train” (or practice). However if you emergency stopped like you do during normal commute stops, we would for sure plow into something. For me there is a significant difference between normal commute traffic stops and getting stopped in a hurray to avoid slamming into something large, hard and unforgiving. It’s a part of that “panic”, for whatever reason, we are suddenly in a situation that is going to cause a crash if we don’t expedite our stop far more than normal commuting usually requires.

If your intent was, and please correct me if I’m wrong, you should train and practice proper skills for emergency stops during daily riding, all the time. That is, the techniques are the same but the extreme application will differ dependent on the stopping distance requirements….then I agree. And if we follow that up with, train for the extreme stops in a safe location as often as practical, I double agree…

Fortunately I’ve only had to make one full brake panic stop which I consider was my only resource to avoid a crash (and hope it’s the last!). It was against an on-coming cage making the left turn across my path. When I got stopped I had used every bit of traction and braking the little Honda (VTR1000) had to offer. The rear tire was slightly off the ground, and the cage rear bumper missed my front tire by a few inches. There was no other place to go that wasn’t already taken up by other traffic, it was stop or hit. Actually I thought I was going to hit, then see sky-ground-sky-ground during a brief flight then taste asphalt, but I cleared her. I train and practice down shifting but the best I got was one gear lower (3rd, as I was already in 4th).

Like most all of us who ride a lot, I’ve had other emergencies and fortunately they gave me time to execute the more perfect quick slow evade with proper gearing maneuvers. I’m a firm believer in the theory, when faced with adversity a person will do as they train (and that can also be self-training and daily practice). However in a panic stop our system is being overwhelmed and the simpler we keep our muscle motor skills, the better we will perform.

During a panic stop down shifting is one of those preferred skill elements which I least think about until I have a better control of the situation. If my motor skills get the right gear by habit fine, but if not at the moment my effort is getting stopped and keeping balance. Given just a split second longer, then I hope my trained and practiced reaction of down shifting works in the event I need a gear.

If a rider practices perfect skill technique of braking and down shifting during normal commute riding and think they are prepared to make a full performance panic stop, they might be riding with a false sense of confidence. Because a panic stop will be an adverse condition which requires extreme handling they are not normally performing. Those who visit the empty parking lots and open roads to practice extreme maneuvers often as well as attend training I think will be much better prepared.

Simply put, I simultaneously upright bike, roll throttle, press brake, keep balance and scan for the escape. The escape includes evade and shifting. Of course there are a thousand different twist to a stopping scenario which could change our technique and they all involve traction.

.

[illzoni]

Rob, Jeff, Mark, and a few others are right on.....
You must downshift as you brake. Some may have confused downshifting with engine braking. No, you don't let the clutch back out/engage, just downshift as you slow so you're in the appropriate gear when it's time to get going again. And practice.

And speaking of practice...
When's the last time you practiced skills like maximum braking, swerving, low speed maneuvering, etc?

Jon

[redst05]

It should be more of a habit of down shifting when breaking hard. This way as soon as you have a path out you would be able to accelerate out if needed and not waste precious time finding the right gear to match the speed you just got to.
Theis exercise is taught to beginner riders in a MSF basic riders course. If we all down shifted during breaking (rather then going through 4 really fast just before you come to a dead stop) it would be a habit and no one would even think when in this type of situation.

[Craig]

Reading these posts I have to say that you guys are really organized in your thoughts of the process of braking. I probably apply front brakes/clutch and rear brake in a matter of time that seems instantaneous but it is intuitive and I don't think about the individual steps.
As an example, I have played hockey since the age of 5 and until I coached my son's team, I didn't know how to explain the building blocks. Until you are in a situation of a mentor etc.... I think it is a natural thing and you don't break it down.
Great topic.
Take care
Craig

[ShinySideUpAZ]

George,
I think we are saying the same thing. When I have emergency situations, I have never thought about what to do. I just do it. What impressed me about the situation I was in last month was, 5 years ago in the same situation, I would have righted the bike and broke hard. I probably would not have down shifted, and I wouldn't have thought about it. However, because I have forced myself to use a different technique in the recent situation I did the 6 steps, also without thinking about it. In the panic situation last month I couldn't have forced myself not downshift and trailbrake. By the same token, if I had encounted a similar situation 5 years ago, I couldn't have forced myself to downshift and trailbrake. There wasn't time to think, I didn't think, "hey remember the six steps" I just reacted. When you react it is not your brain that's moving your body, it's the clump of nerves at the top of the spinal cord and the base of the brain stem.

I will echo what Craig said, I grew up on skates, I was playing hockey by the time I was 5. My parents like telling people I learned to skate fast before I learned to run. This being said I had to pay a highschool kit 15 bucks an hour to teach my kids how to skate. Teaching them how to skate was like trying to teach someone to breath, where do you start. It's all muscle memory and habit.

George, we also agree that practice full stops should be a regular part of your week. I will also echo what Nick said in his book, if you normally drive 90 miles an hour, you should normally practice breaking from 90 miles an hour. I also practice emergency stops from a high lean angle.

[Casey]

I'm glad I started this Poll, there is a lot of great information here, thank you all for responding.

I would like to refer to the following quote:

1) Apply first squeeze of front brake, this loads the front tire and flattens the contact patch.
2) If necessary begin righting bike
3) Pull in clutch
4) Apply first pressure of Rear Brake
5) While righting bike, if necessary, continue righting bike while applying progressively harder front break and rear brake i.e. balance traction/lean angle points
Here in lies the secret, as you bleed off speed you need less lean angle to stay on your line in the turn, as your lean angle decreases you have more traction points to give to braking.
6) Tap down gears as I bleed off speed.
7) Bike Stopped, I should be in 1st gear, clutch has been in since step 3
8) Foot down
9) Check mirrors and traffic for hazards,
10) If no hazards exist, poop myself, if hazards exist, get out of dodge, then poop myself.


Does everyone(this is a tough one) agree that the 10 steps above are the correct method to practice emergency braking?

How do you determine the amount of braking to be applied? Lets assume that we do not have ABS or linked braking. I understand that the CG of both the ST1100 & the ST1300 are at a point that a "stoppie" can occur.

What clues do you rely on when braking so you do not do a stoppie or lock the rear wheel?

PS - maybe this post should be its own thread on proper technique for breaking??

Thanks,

[motomac]

Actually they are correct, but the firstest thing you do is roll off the throttle.

[ShinySideUpAZ]

Yes, roll off throttle.

As for doing a stoppie on a ST1300, I tried really really hard with Don at Ride Smart as a spotter, and on his closed practice range. Even at the point where I was locking up the front tire for a continuous 6 feet, I couldn't get the rear tire off the ground. Now keep in mind I weight 250lbs. It's possible my son could do it, he weighs 150lbs, but I wasn't willing to let him try. Based upon my attempts, BTW I don't have any trouble doing a stoppie on a GXSR or CBR, I don't think you can get the rear wheel off the ground without washing out the front tire. You can definitely get the rear tire light and unload the suspension, but I would bow down and give praise to the rider who could control a stoppie on a ST1300.

Also, I don't have ABS.

[Gug]

In an emergency, (pucker factor of 8+ on the rector scale) I leave it in the gear I am in, as hard on the brakes as I can even controlling the back wheel skid and leave the clutch out till the last possible moment to use the engine for braking as well.

Even pulling in the clutch is not of concern at a 9+ or any other for that matter, just want to use the engine braking as well.

[wjbertrand]

Yes, roll off throttle.

As for doing a stoppie on a ST1300, I tried really really hard with Don at Ride Smart as a spotter, and on his closed practice range. Even at the point where I was locking up the front tire for a continuous 6 feet, I couldn't get the rear tire off the ground. Now keep in mind I weight 250lbs. It's possible my son could do it, he weighs 150lbs, but I wasn't willing to let him try. Based upon my attempts, BTW I don't have any trouble doing a stoppie on a GXSR or CBR, I don't think you can get the rear wheel off the ground without washing out the front tire. You can definitely get the rear tire light and unload the suspension, but I would bow down and give praise to the rider who could control a stoppie on a ST1300.

Also, I don't have ABS.

My experience with the ST1100 as well. I had the farings off for some farkling/maintenance and therefore the ABS/TCS switches on the left side were disconnected. It turns out this disables the ABS and causes the warning light to blink. On test ride, sans farings and with ABS still disabled, I could lock the front wheel as described above but I could not stoppie it. This was with my old '93 ABS I before the brakes were linked. I even tried sitting really close to the tank but still produced only a skid from the front wheel. After I damn near fell off doing this I abandoned further experimentation.

[alphafang]

I skip point 4 which effects point 5.
I dont use the back brake at all if I want to stop the bike quick from speed, I do load the front (point 1) come off for a milli second then firmly squeeze the front in as far as possible. My theory is using the back brake at speed will lessen the contact area of the front tyre, by taking weight off it leading to potential front end slide out. I only use the back for slow speed manouvering (turn around parking lot type of stuff)
But I'm not saying it's the right way just my way. It works very well for me.
Great thread.
Paul

[ShinySideUpAZ]

When Don and I were experimenting with braking I tried stops, front tire only, back tire only, and both tires. It was amazing, just like the MSF says I decreased my stopping distance by 30% by adding the rear wheel. If you read Nicks book he explains why. When you add breaking to the rear tire you create a cantalever force across the frame of the bike. This damps the front end dive some, but by increasing the friction force to both wheels it provides more control and a greater contact patch. This is very important if the bike is leaned over; a slight application of rear wheel braking will actually decrease the likelyhood of a rear tire washout verses no braking of the rear wheel.

[Computer Nerd]

Take care not to try and swerve if you do have to brake hard.

Either swerve, or brake. Not both.

[ccryder]

Let's see, in the last 3 years and 67,000+ miles I have never had to make an emergency panic stop. This does not include the times I practice on a parking lot or otherwise deserted area.

My point is: 110% defensive riding will keep you out of this emergency panic situation. If you are having to utilize your brakes to this extent, IMHO, then you are not aware enough of what is going on around you and, not leaving yourself an emergency exit.

For example, my post on "Vension for breakfast", emergency panic braking would not have cleared me of this situation. My other skills and situational awareness are what saved me. This what will save your bacon in the real world.

Time2Ride.

Neil S.

[ShinySideUpAZ]

I agree, the best way to not be in an accident, is to be somewhere else when the accident happens.

[saaz]

Agree with all those who basically said that you must be in a position to move off quickly once you are over the emergency braking. The brakes are used for stopping, not the engine. Hold in the clutch and ram it down to first. This was taught at an advanced motorcycling course I went to many years ago. It is something you should practice to make it a habit.

[ligito]

Once again, how are you using time?

Pushing the lever down is done at the same time as you are braking, it does not add time to the process, nor does it require any physical resource that is needed elsewhere. As stated above you must train yourself to do this and once you do, it just happens.

If you can push down on the brake pedal, you can push down on the shifter peg, why would you not want to be as ready as possible when you get to the end of braking?


My point is dividing reaction time into elements.

If you have little time, make the most of it, brake first.

I tell people to avoid using the horn, when that part of the reaction time is wasted and should be applied to braking. Most people that honk the horn do it before braking, wasting time and delaying the act of stopping.

[illzoni]

My experience with the ST1100 as well. I had the farings off for some farkling/maintenance and therefore the ABS/TCS switches on the left side were disconnected. It turns out this disables the ABS and causes the warning light to blink. On test ride, sans farings and with ABS still disabled, I could lock the front wheel as described above but I could not stoppie it. This was with my old '93 ABS I before the brakes were linked. I even tried sitting really close to the tank but still produced only a skid from the front wheel. After I damn near fell off doing this I abandoned further experimentation.

Yep, both the ST1100 and VFR750 would lock up the front the last few feet before stopping. Get's your attention first time it happens. Really isn't that big a deal once you've done it a couple times.

OTOH, the HawkGT does SWEET stoppies! :squid1:

Jon

Jon Ransom
Ventura, CA
STOC 063
MSF RiderCoach (www.msf-usa.org)
91 SSM-ST1100-40A
former: 85 Vulcan, 93 ST1100A, 96 VFR, 89 HawkGT
www.illzoni.com/bikes

[ChipSTer]

Agree with all those who basically said that you must be in a position to move off quickly once you are over the emergency braking. The brakes are used for stopping, not the engine. Hold in the clutch and ram it down to first. This was taught at an advanced motorcycling course I went to many years ago. It is something you should practice to make it a habit.
+1 (It is now habit when the clutch comes in and the brakes go on, I match the gear to the speed...)
:cool:

[motomac]

I would say to do a stoppy with the ST the front tire would have to be defalted to a lower pressure. If you notice in the videos of the kids doing all those tricks, their tires front and back have very little air in them.

[Rory MacDonell]

Seems to me that the MSF course teaches the rider in a "panic stop" to "grab everything and use both feet." The intent is to pull in the clutch, SQUEEZE the front brake, mash the rear brake, and downshift all the way to first ready to come to a full and complete stop if necessary, and be prepared to start out again in first.

[motomac]

We don't teach grab anything!!! Squeeze is the term we use. Squeeze, squeeze, press, press with both feet, left foot to the ground.