Gears or Brakes?

[kinzer1]

have an 05 ST with 5K and I’ve been shifting down using gears in conjunction with brakes when coming to a stop. I don’t remember where but I read that it’s not a good thing to do and it’s actually harms the engine and other mechanical parts.

Can anyone shed some light on this?

[alan]

have an 05 ST with 5K and I’ve been shifting down using gears in conjunction with brakes when coming to a stop. I don’t remember where but I read that it’s not a good thing to do and it’s actually harms the engine and other mechanical parts.

Can anyone shed some light on this?

I frequently use the gears to help slow down both in my car and on the S1300. I have never heard where this could do any mechanical damage to the drivetrain. Using the gears to slow will increase your fuel consumption though.

[sparkinator]

I frequently use the gears to help slow down both in my car and on the S1300. I have never heard where this could do any mechanical damage to the drivetrain. Using the gears to slow will increase your fuel consumption though.

+1 alan. I do this all of the time.

Of course, watch your tach, you don't need to over rev your engine. You can experience some extra tire wear if you do this fairly aggressively.

[malanclay]

It used to be thought it was hard on the clutch to incrementally downshift and release as you came to a stop. I don't think that's really valid anymore. I do it so I'm in gear as much as possible during a stop. You never know when you will have to "wave off". ;)

[Biddyman]

The only negative of doing it was if you do it during an emergency stop. In a safety class they showed it made the stop longer.

[vfourlife]

The only negative of doing it was if you do it during an emergency stop. In a safety class they showed it made the stop longer.

Don't do it with traffic around, a cager will surely get ya! They don't see red, they don't know to slow down and look.

[TexTom]

The English racers, mostly autos, used to say"gears are for going and brakes are for stopping". I use the gears to slow sometimes too so....:06biker:
TexTom

[fastflyer20]

Read any motorcycle or auto book on this subject and they will say the same thing -brakes are cheap, clutches and engines are not. It is a good technique to match the gears to road speed and that will involve a certain amount of engine breaking. Don't overdo it. Use the brakes as the primary stopper. They are better at it, cheaper and you do not want to get into a bad habit of engine breaking 'cause it is not good in an emergency situation.

[Raven]

There was a thread on this before the big crash (maybe it was lost) regarding using engine braking during a stop. Back in the day of poor, less than efficient drum brakes, engine braking made sense (especially on big, heavy cars). With disc brakes, it's much more efficient and effective to use the brakes to stop.

+1 on the efficacy of squeezing the clutch, applying the brakes and downshifting whilst keeping the clutch squeezed for every stop as you'll develop muscle memory and in an emergency situation will likely do exactly what you've habituated to.

+1 on communicating via the brake-light with the cager behind you!

For me, modern brakes (and the ST's are certainly that) are best used for stopping and I seldom, if ever, engine brake whilst stopping.

[Herleman]

Brake pads are cheaper than clutches (but they don't sound as neat as a V4 during engine braking).

[kinzer1]

Thanks to all who responded. I don’t over rev the engine. Just match the gears to the speed. I’ll use the brake more from now on. While we’re on this topic, is it recommended to keep the clutch depressed and the bike in gear while at the stoplight?

I know that from the safety point of view, it is always good to keep the bike in gear while stopped but will this wear out the clutch quicker?

[EagleSix]

There was a thread on this before the big crash (maybe it was lost) regarding using engine braking during a stop. Back in the day of poor, less than efficient drum brakes, engine braking made sense (especially on big, heavy cars). With disc brakes, it's much more efficient and effective to use the brakes to stop.

+1 on the efficacy of squeezing the clutch, applying the brakes and downshifting whilst keeping the clutch squeezed for every stop as you'll develop muscle memory and in an emergency situation will likely do exactly what you've habituated to.

+1 on communicating via the brake-light with the cager behind you!

For me, modern brakes (and the ST's are certainly that) are best used for stopping and I seldom, if ever, engine brake whilst stopping.

+1 Raven again, is spot on….

During normal street and commute riding I think the advantages of using the brakes opposed to using engine braking to slow, is safer and smarter. If you are in an extenuated down hill situation where excessive use of brakes would weaken the full stop or emergency stop capability of your braking system, if suddenly needed, engine braking may have an advantage. Down shifting to keep in the appropriate power range while braking to a stop or slow, I think is the smart skill to develop, but often confused with engine braking.

I almost always downshift while slowing and/or coming to a stop. I feather on the clutch a wee bit on each downshift and then disengage for the next shift, all the time applying enough brake pedal or lever (or both) to activate the stop lights along with the required pressure to achieve the desired stopping rate. This normally isn’t required for downshifting through the gears for a slow or slow to stop, just my system to keep check of my gear/power range selected for the speed as I slow.

.

[Britman]

As far as I'm concerned I want to always be in the right gear and speed combination for evasive manouvering.

If this involves downshifting and utilising engine braking I will do it. Howeve matching engine speed with road speed should minimise any stress placed on the clutch.

[Burger]

In a panic stop you will use the brakes... that's just going to be your normal reaction... or certainly should be.

If we're talking about riding with the flow of traffic and slowing or accelerating to stay with it then down shifting to slow is absolutely the correct way to be riding/driving. As you approach an obstacle - a slowing car, a joining road, something else, you should aim to be in the correct gear to negotiate the obstacle and then be able to accelerate away from it once round it.

You will not damage your engine by doing this and it will have almost zero wear on the clutch unless for some reason you're slipping it, which you should only ever need to do seriously on initial take up from a stop.

Regards,

[LandRover]

Along these same lines ........

How long is the clutch disk assembly lasting for you folks? I'm at 52K, and I don't feel any wear or slippage. Have I adjusted for it incrementally as the assembly has worn, or is there minimal wear on the plates? Without pulling the clutch, is there any way to verify the state of tune within the clutch hub/ basket?

I know, I know .... but this is one of those things I wonder about .....

Thanks for any help and/or information you can provide. :04biker:

Cheers!
Bill

[Ken]

As far as I'm concerned I want to always be in the right gear and speed combination for evasive manouvering.

If this involves downshifting and utilising engine braking I will do it. Howeve matching engine speed with road speed should minimise any stress placed on the clutch.
+1 - Couldn't agree more.

[jholder]

Keep in mind ABS won't engage the clutch. If the bike is in gear, ABS may not be able to prevent rear wheel lock-up.

Just to reinforce this point, be careful engine braking particularly on wet surfaces or lower friction surfaces. It's much easier to adjust your braking if you feel impending wheel lock-up than it is to correct too much engine braking. And as Miles mentioned, ABS will not correct for over braking by use of the engine. Done incorrectly (read too much), engine braking can put you on the ground quickly.

That said, I always engine brake slightly except during emergency stop practice. I just want to keep my gear selection appropriate for my speed in case I need to accelerate again or something.

Ride safe,

[alan]

Back in the day of poor, less than efficient drum brakes, engine braking made sense (especially on big, heavy cars). With disc brakes, it's much more efficient and effective to use the brakes to stop.



I have a 1951 Dodge pickup and even if the brakes are perfect, those old drum brakes don't work very well. Driving with drum brakes requires planning! They won't stop you on a dime, so you learn to judge as to when you think the light ahead of you is going to change to red and if you think it will be close, you start slowing down ahead of time by downshifting. No waiting to the last second with drum brakes.

[Viggo]

Thanks to all who responded. I don’t over rev the engine. Just match the gears to the speed. I’ll use the brake more from now on. While we’re on this topic, is it recommended to keep the clutch depressed and the bike in gear while at the stoplight?

I know that from the safety point of view, it is always good to keep the bike in gear while stopped but will this wear out the clutch quicker?

I nearly always use some engine braking in conjunction witht he brakes (keep that brake light lit when slowing!). Of course, when I learned to ride, mc brakes were notoriously weak.

As for keeping the bike in gear while stopped, this will not wear out the clutch quicker unless your clutch is out of adjustment. At stoplights that I know will be long ones, I usually kick it to neutral to ease my left hand, not 'cause I'm worried about clutch wear.

[John Anthony]

What Burger said.

John

[Tor]

Engine braking. Got 26K on my ST and still on first brake pad set.

[Gug]

Brakes.

In reading here as always there is alot of good info for numerous riding styles. But engine breaking is more wear on the motor, more wear on the clutch and more wear on the rear tire. Brakes are much cheaper than any of the above and easier to replace. I finally changed out the front brakes at 27,487 miles and could have gone another 3-5k on them.

A am not an aggressive rider and I am actually very easy on my bike. I practice turning and breaking when I can but while on the road I am constantly analyzing traffic and road conditions to avoid putting myself into a perilous situation. Thanks David Hough.

[tricky_micky]

It has already been said, Brakes are for 'Stopping' and 'Gears' are for going.

However, we must always think of keeping the bike in a 'Responsive' gear because we can accelerate out of danger as well as accelerate into it! Stands to sense. If you are in a speed restricted area, keep the bike on it's toe's and in a responsive gear for this reason but there is more to it and there have been some good replies to the posts.

To come into a lower gear to combat every road speed and traffic situation makes sense, and to use a 'Block' change instead of coming through the gearbox will reduce wear and tear on all component parts as well as rider fatigue.

You should always be in the correct gear for the hazard you are negotiating and we can control the bike through throttle control instead of using the brakes. You may think this is using the brakes and engine to lose or increase speed, well it is actually called 'Acceleration Sense'.

'Acceleration Sense' is the ability to vary the speed of the machine having regards to the existing road and traffic conditions by using the throttle control instead of brakes!

It is an art and needs practise. You need to have the ability to match engine speed to road speed in all intermediate gears so all gear changes are smooth, you need the ability to control the throttle as a 'Surgeon with a scalpel'

I have done demonstration rides where folk have pulled alongside me and told me that my brake light is not working! Heck, pull or press the lever and hey presto, the brake light comes on!

I have rattled along with the best of them but I can work the ST to the limit, it also works me by the way when in this situation LOL.

Think of the 'Roll On' 'Roll Off' effect. After a bend or corner, roll on the accelerator to get it going and on approach to the next roll it off before you get to the bend. When you get to the bend u should be travelling at a comfortable speed and as the bend opens up roll the gas back on.

Heck, this has taken me years of practise and goodness knows how many riding courses to get me into this state of riding but the feeling is that when your client comes to you and tells you that your riding is so smooth and without any braking that would cause a problem etc, it is a great feeling, but I am a proffesional motorcycle instructor so I would expect those comments.

Sorry it was a long one but it is a meaningful conversation that requires practise, practise and more practise!

Mick

[Carl_T]

Nothing much to add.

Perhaps a reminder that using engine braking rather than brakes will hone, sharpen, clarify, a rider's corner entry speed judgment. Some time spent swooping curves with engine braking alone will help hone a slice of that acceleration sense Mickey talked about.

Of course there is an on the other hand, and an in general, coming now. Rather than go on about my thoughts on it I'd sooner quote David L. Hough as he is an accepted public expert on road riding.

The following is a short excerpt directly from Proficient Motorcycling by David L. Hough, published by BowTie Press.

This from under Veteran Tactics:
" * Approaching turns, use your brakes. Braking should be part of your cornering sequence. Sure, rolling off the throttle slows the bike but, remember,engine compression functions as a rear wheel brake only. Adding a touch of front brake to help decelerate prior to leaning over into corners makes two wheel braking part of your habit pattern. If you're in the habit of braking when approaching turns, you will automatically brake harder when you realize the curve ahead is a little tighter than you thought or when you spot a gravel spill at the apex or the view suddenly gets blocked by roadside trees and bushes or a pedestrian steps off the sidewalk as you make your turn."

End of quote.

To me this little bit makes good practical everyday common sense in riding. So much of what we do involves subconscious habit patterns.