MSF Experienced Rider Course (ERC)

[Ken]

It's been a while since I've taken any safety classes so I grabbed the last slot in an ERC class yesterday just for grins. For anyone considering it, I highly recommend it. Some observations and an overview:

The class is 6 hours long and is mostly course/range work. There is about 30-45 minutes of classwork that covers some street riding tips, risk factors, effects of alcohol and drugs, traction theory, T-CLOC pre-check, and accident avoidance.

But most of the class is range work. Our class had 9 students and two instructors. Interestingly, there were 3 Goldwings. The touring crowd was the majority with the Wings, a BMW RT, a BMW GT, and a Voyager. There were two cruisers and one 919

The instructors worked well together, with one explaining the next exercise while the other set up the course and did a demo on his GL1800. Between the two of them, they had nearly 80 years of riding experience.

The exercises include a slalom course one-handed and two-handed, upright emergency stops, leaned over emergency stops, U-turns and figure 8's in a 20' foot box, S-turn runs, lots of 90, 135, and 180 degree turn courses, obstacle avoidance weave and quick stop, and a small course with four 90's and an S turn on one of the straightaways.

The 919 and Ken performed pretty well. The exercises aren't difficult. But they are challenging because there is always a better way to ride and bad habits to pick off. In my case, I don't do enough of a head turn and I look at my exit instead of past it. My quick stops couldn't be beat though! It was interesting being the only sport bike there. The 919 was the most nimble, followed by the Wings, GT, the RT, and then the cruisers. One of the cruisers went down pretty hard in one of the emergency stop drills. He was not accustomed to using the front brake, at all. When he was instructed to not use the rear brake in one drill and rely entirely on the front brake, he gorilla gripped it, washed out the front tire, and down he went. No real damage to the rider other than a road-rashed elbow and bruised ego, but his Vulcan had a few scrapes.

All in all, a really fun and informative class. There are a couple riding philosophies that the MSF preaches that I don't entirely buy into, namely that riders should not cover the front brake and that front braking needs to be done with four fingers. The theory behind not covering the front brake is that people instinctively tense up and grab a handful of front brake in a panic (too quickly). And they are adamant that four fingers are necessary for emergency braking -- two fingers are fine for scrubbing off speed, but four fingers are needed for hard braking. I cover the front brake 99% of the time and not doing that today kinda felt riding in a car without a seat belt.

The class lasted about 6.5 hours altogether. It was 92 and humid outside and probably more like 115 on the tarmac. Luckily they furnished coolers full of iced bottled water. The cost was $125 and I think it was well worth it. I'm writing this to share the experience and to remind myself of the drills so I can practice them more :)

[Phil]

When I was active duty we were forced to take this class in order to be able to ride on post, I agree with what you said for the most part. Kind of nice to get back to basics for a moment, but you have to take what they give you with a grain of salt. There are different ways to accomplish the same task, and of course people do things differently. Just like driving a car, who here keeps their hands at 10 and 2 all the time? I did send my wife through this course, and for a n00b with an open mind it is a good teaching environment.

4 fingers for hard braking eh? Maybe on a HD...... lol

[John Anthony]

Ken - thanks for the write up. Maggie and I are trying to do some kind of training at least every two years. This class sounds like a good one to plug into the schedule.

John

[fastflyer20]

Thanks for the insight. I called the local school, and they are too busy with the beginner course to host an experienced course until later in the season. I am on the call list.

Front braking depends on the strength of the front brakes. A HD needs 4 fingers for the necessary strength. The ST does not. When I was road racing, 2 fingers is what we were instructedto use. You then still have control of the throttle. 4 fingers renders the throttle useless.

Courses like this need to teach one set of ideas to standardize. Many different ways can accomplish similar results. The big bonus was teaching the cruiser that he had a front brake!

[Raven]

If you get a chance to take the Lee Parks Total Control Advanced Riding Course, it is lightyears beyond the MSF Experienced Rider Course. You'll learn more in one day than in 10 years of riding (which is what a lot of people say about the MSF/ERC).

The MSF curriculum is really great at getting people to look up and do basic operations consistently but the Total Control class moves you to a new level of smoothness (much like what I gather the Keith Code and Freddie Spencer classes do as well).

So, the ERC is a nice reminder of the basics but if you get a chance to do one of the more advanced classes, they're worth every penny.

[HankSTer]

ya'll I'm gonna say something I hope is more thought about then taken negatively right off the bat...

If you are ever in a situation where you have to use your brakes to their fullest extent, you will want to be using 4 fingers.

How do you know when this is going to happen?

you won't.

That's why it's recommended to make it a habit, to use 4 fingers. It's just like atgatt, you hope you never have to need it, and hopefully you never will. But if some complete dum* as* pulls in front of you at the extremely last second, all 4 fingers.

motogp riders use all 4 when they need it, and they are in the most controlled environments possible, we are not.

Regards,

[Ken]

I inquired about this to one of the instructors, Hank. Actually I asked if this teaching was a leftover from days gone by before braided lines, dual rotors and triple pot calipers. He said it wasn't but not all bikes have these things so they teach to the lowest common denominator.

I'm sure four fingers will apply more pressure. But I can get the 919 to stand on its nose with 2 fingers. I'm not sure how much more strength is needed, especially since they teach that it's smooth, progressive braking that stops you the fastest, not quick strength. The four finger philosophy had an eerie irony to it considering how the Vulcan in the group went down (see above).

I like to do some type of safety/riding class every couple of years. Next up on my list is CLASS or something similar, but I wouldn't hesitate to take this course again in the future. Almost everyone has bad habits and this course is a good way to improve your skills.

[illzoni]

Ken,

Thanks for the comprehensive write-up.

Several reasons could be cited for MSFs position on 4-finger braking:
1) lowest common demoninator;
2) holdover from older bikes/brakes;
3) consistent teaching message;
4) HanSTer's (see above).
I really like HankSTer's take on it.

I'd like to make an analogy, but I'm not sure it'll much sense...but I'll try. When I want to move a piece of furniture or other items a small distance, I usually use a large muscle group (like my legs). I find I can control the smaller movement far better. I don't recall the specific reasoning given during my RCP for four fingers, but seem to recall that more strength actually results in more control and better feel.

The Vulcan rider either applied the brakes too abruptly or didn't keep the bars square while braking. Most cruisers will allow an incredible amount of front brake force once the weight has transferred forward.

BTW, both the BRC and ERC are adult learning. We're all adults. Take the information for what it worth and apply as you see fit.

Jon Ransom
Ventura, CA
STOC 063
MSF RiderCoach (www.msf-usa.org)
91 SSM-ST1100-40A
former: 85 Vulcan, 93 ST1100A, 96 VFR, 89 HawkGT
www.illzoni.com/bikes

[GRN]

If you get a chance to take the Lee Parks Total Control Advanced Riding Course, it is lightyears beyond the MSF Experienced Rider Course. You'll learn more in one day than in 10 years of riding (which is what a lot of people say about the MSF/ERC).

There is a new MSF Course that was developed to fill that void between ERC and the track as well... I believe some courses have been conducted in FL, sounds like it will be a year or two before it is available en mass, or more depending on the RiderCoach training requirements and availability. Seems to me it might not be quite as simple as getting your cert. to Coach ERC's.

On braking, in addition to the good reasons previously stated and to build a bit upon what hankster said in greater detail, four finger braking taught across the board covers the vast span of human and machine variability. Well executed front progressive braking on the average bike, with the average human in a quick stop will still generally not tap the total mechanical potential due to lack of application in the later stage of the progression. I'm a pretty strong guy, and ride two bikes that both have great front brakes that for general street riding need on or two fingers tops, even for really hard breaking in the twisties. When I have eye popping "oh ****" situations I've got all four on. I'll bet that if I were to focus one new exercise in my workout on just forearms that my measured quick stops would improve due to added strength and control more than they will due to continued practice alone. My $.02 :)

['04 ST1300A in NJ]

I took the Experienced MSF course last year. It was the first training course I ever took. The ABS linked system was great for stopping. I also had one issue with NOT squaring the front wheel while coming out of an S turn and then "panic" stopping behind the line. I was almost stopped but couldn't keep the bike up. I didn't try to overcome the heavy weight for too long either.

Tip over bar suffered a slight scrape but that's what they are for. Others were amazed. Good learnings from watching others and even my incident. Better to happen there than in the street. The engine died also as per design on a tip-over. The instructor told me to turn it off but it was already off. Getting it upright with the backwards manuever was "interesting" but it worked.

The instructor reminded me to put the side stand down on the opposite side of the bike before uprighting it!!! :confused:

Roger

[Blrfl]

I'm sure four fingers will apply more pressure.

Two fingers will apply sufficient pressure on modern bikes to stop them just fine. They'll also apply sufficient pressure to make the remaining two fingers miserable should they find themselves between the lever and the grip when giving it a good, hard yank.

--Mark

[Ken]

Two fingers will apply sufficient pressure on modern bikes to stop them just fine. They'll also apply sufficient pressure to make the remaining two fingers miserable should they find themselves between the lever and the grip when giving it a good, hard yank.

--Mark
With adjustable levers this isn't necessarily true. I've been in the habit of keeping digits 1 and 2 on the lever, with 3 and 4 saved to adjust the throttle. No way I can squeeze hard enough to pinch the two throttle fingers. YMMV.

[sscharf]

Four fingers - I have heard that the manufacturers recommend that, because the levers are shaped for four fingers. Probably covering their legal behinds. If they had levers shaped for two fingers, that *might* be different.

I did the free ERC in Irvine last month. It did the range exercises only, but was easy and fun.

Nothing extremely advanced, but I'm glad that I took it. Class was sportbikes and FJR's mostly. I think I hauled it around the course better than the rest, on my ST1300.


steve

[Raven]

Most race classes teach two fingers on the brake and the technique of using the brake and throttle at the same time. Whilst not a good technique for a quick stop, it's definitely a good technique for precise control of brake and throttle for cornering. YMMV

Clearly sportbikes have infinitely better braking capabilities than a cruiser and two fingers can certainly be sufficient given those capabilities.

Research on application of brakes has shown that people can respond quicker if they "cover" the brakes. Given that in most crashes the motorcyclist has approximately two seconds to do something, having that reaction advantage may not be a bad thing.

The MSF certainly encourages the use of four finger braking and NOT covering the brakes in the BRC classes. One primary reason is a reduction in "panic grabbing" that beginners have a tendency to do. For ERC's it's more due to the concept of brake-fade, which is certainly a concern for some braking systems.

[Ken]

It's interesting - I've posted the summary of my class in a few forums where I am active. Without exception, the issue of covering the front brakes has been the most hotly debated topic within these threads.

It made me wonder what got me in the habit of doing this, and why I feel so uncomfortable when I don't cover the front brake. Last night I did some digging and found the answer.

When I got back into riding, I read riding technique books profusely:
Proficient Motorcycling (Hough)
More Proficient Motorcycling (Hough)
Total Control: High Performance Street Riding Techniques (Parks)
Sport Riding Techniques: How To Develop Real World Skills for Speed, Safety, and Confidence on the Street and Track (Ienatsch)
Twist of the Wrist II (Code)
There are not too many things that all of these riders agree on (the delayed apex comes to mind) but I scanned these books and found, without exception, that all of these respected authors favor covering the front brake.

[Don-STOC237]

I don't see what there is to hotly debate about. The MSF teaches not covering the front brake because there are too many opportunities for new riders to easily grab, and I do mean grab rather than squeeze, the front brake in a panic situation. This leads to unpleasant results. We teach new riders to always cover the clutch on the first day of range riding, for the same reason.

If you are in a normal riding situation, and you are using your SEE techniques and constantly evaluating the situation around you, you shouldn't have to be constantly covering the brake unless you are in a very iffy situation.

Even if you are sporty riding the canyons, mountains and curves, there should be little reason to cover the brakes constantly. You should be able to anticipate when you will need to apply the brake and get ready to brake when you need to. You should also be riding smoothly enough so that heavy braking is rarely, if ever, needed.

There is some justification for covering the brake when in heavy traffic or some other congested situation. But make sure you're using your SEE technique as your first defense, not fingers on the brake. I've ridden with too many people who ride with their brakes covered and their eyes on the road directly in front of them, don't do that.

In racing situations, which is what most of the books you quoted address, the technique is different, most recommend two on the throttle, two on the brakes.

But the main thing is, if you are a proficient rider, and can think your way through when and how hard to apply the brakes in any given situation, then go ahead and cover them if it makes you feel better. What's the difference?

Just because MSF teaches a technique that is oriented toward the mass of riders, this doesn't mean you can't vary from that technique if you want to.

So, I don't understand this "hot debate" deal.

[dreddd2000]

+1 on it being a great course. I took mine first thing this year and got a LOT of good pointers from it.

And remember, if you are an HRCA member, they offer partial reimbursement for taking the BRC and/or ERC.

[Phil]

I don't see what there is to hotly debate about. The MSF teaches not covering the front brake because there are too many opportunities for new riders to easily grab, and I do mean grab rather than squeeze, the front brake in a panic situation. This leads to unpleasant results. We teach new riders to always cover the clutch on the first day of range riding, for the same reason.

If you are in a normal riding situation, and you are using your SEE techniques and constantly evaluating the situation around you, you shouldn't have to be constantly covering the brake unless you are in a very iffy situation.

Even if you are sporty riding the canyons, mountains and curves, there should be little reason to cover the brakes constantly. You should be able to anticipate when you will need to apply the brake and get ready to brake when you need to. You should also be riding smoothly enough so that heavy braking is rarely, if ever, needed.

There is some justification for covering the brake when in heavy traffic or some other congested situation. But make sure you're using your SEE technique as your first defense, not fingers on the brake. I've ridden with too many people who ride with their brakes covered and their eyes on the road directly in front of them, don't do that.

In racing situations, which is what most of the books you quoted address, the technique is different, most recommend two on the throttle, two on the brakes.

But the main thing is, if you are a proficient rider, and can think your way through when and how hard to apply the brakes in any given situation, then go ahead and cover them if it makes you feel better. What's the difference?

Just because MSF teaches a technique that is oriented toward the mass of riders, this doesn't mean you can't vary from that technique if you want to.

So, I don't understand this "hot debate" deal.

I'm with you, I NEVER cover the front brake, I find it quite uncomforable. I don't even do it on the racetrack. In a panic situation, I can snag the lever in about a milisecond, and apply hard braking....

[Phil]

It's interesting - I've posted the summary of my class in a few forums where I am active. Without exception, the issue of covering the front brakes has been the most hotly debated topic within these threads.

It made me wonder what got me in the habit of doing this, and why I feel so uncomfortable when I don't cover the front brake. Last night I did some digging and found the answer.

When I got back into riding, I read riding technique books profusely:
Proficient Motorcycling (Hough)
More Proficient Motorcycling (Hough)
Total Control: High Performance Street Riding Techniques (Parks)
Sport Riding Techniques: How To Develop Real World Skills for Speed, Safety, and Confidence on the Street and Track (Ienatsch)
Twist of the Wrist II (Code)
There are not too many things that all of these riders agree on (the delayed apex comes to mind) but I scanned these books and found, without exception, that all of these respected authors favor covering the front brake.

I can't think of one racer I know, or have seen that rides around with their front brake covered. I've been to the Code school, and he didn't teach it their either....? I could go pull out my TOTW books, but I'm too lazy

[Ken]

I can't think of one racer I know, or have seen that rides around with their front brake covered. I've been to the Code school, and he didn't teach it their either....? I could go pull out my TOTW books, but I'm too lazyRacing is not street. For example, I've noticed that Valentino Rossi, 6 times world MotoGP Champion, does not cover the front brake while racing. He reaches for the front brake lever at every turn, and then grabs the bar with his full hand once done braking. First, recognize that he's more talented and practiced than you or I will ever be. Second, he's in a controlled environment where its the same 12 corners lap after lap, everyone is going the same direction, there are no cars and little debris, and all the riders around him are predictable and are also world-class. And third, he needs his full arm strength on the bars to control 250hp at full throttle from every corner exit. That's simply not the street bike environment. You need every advantage you can get.

IMO - When the time comes that you need to unexpectedly hit the brakes, your reaction time will be much faster if you don't have to extend your hand to grab the brakes. Also, you're much less likely to grab the brakes too hard in an emergency, which can lock the front end and down you go. If you are used to resting your fingers on the front brake lever, and squeezing the brakes smoothly and firmly, then when the emergency happens, you will automatically and reflexively squeeze the brakes to a safe and smooth stop.

[Carl_T]

I always prefer to cover in both traffic and deer country. Covering is an old Moto Cross habit for me where I never had a problem with it even over slamming rough ground.

We had deer run out in front of the Mrs. and I a couple of times when leading the NESTOC ride last weekend. Having my fingers on the brake made for an easier time of it for me. :)

I can full stop with two, and I can climb the remaining two on anytime I want them after the fact. If a Magician can whirl coins around between his fingers, with practice a guy can learn to climb another couple fingers on a brake lever if he wants them. Each to his own I guess.

I sure can't remember when I EVER forgot to shut the throttle when braking with two. Covering or not, either way works, one works a portion of a second faster than the other though. At oompteen miles per hour a portion of a second is a lot of ground covered.

[Raven]

At oompteen miles per hour you cover 47.37682964528 cyclenimeters per second! :eek:

A lot could happen......

[Carl_T]

I always wondered about the exact figure as to cyclenimeters traveled at oompteen mph. This amazing board even has scientific guys n GALS with the research on that... so COOL!!! :D :p:

[pointpergame]

A relevant aside:
HRAC will refund you $75.00 for most of the MSF courses, once per year. You have 90 days afterward to send them the receipts. That's free money.