I just won the Moron of the Year award!

[forgitaboutut]

:banghead:
Somewhere deep down in that hole....
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee142/forgitaboutut/53400489.jpg


Lays the rest of this spark plug! :sparkplu:
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee142/forgitaboutut/53400490.jpg


I got two out with no problem...I know I was turning the right direction
(righty tighty....lefty losen...)
any sugestions how to get this out,or is my Triumph off to the scrapyard?...:banghead:

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee142/forgitaboutut/53400488.jpg
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee142/forgitaboutut/53400487.jpg

[georgeorge]

I wouldn't send it to the scrapyard, but I think the head is going to need to come off the block to get it out.

[Mellow]

Yeow.. can you see it? One of those long handled things w/4 wire prongs on each end to retrieve screws/bolts... don't know what their called.

Will a magnet pick it up?

[Mellow]

I wouldn't send it to the scrapyard, but I think the head is going to need to come off the block to get it out.

Yeah.. I think you're right.. it's the threaded part that fell ... seems strange to me..

[uptoblackwood]

Wow...it looks like the threaded portion of the plug was left in the head! You'll probably have to remove the head to get that plug out. I've never seen a plug break off that way. I've seen the ceramic break many times....but never the treaded section.

Forest

[georgeorge]

Maybe I spoke too soon. http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you_remove_a_broken_spark_plug

Might be worth a shot.

[gregj]

When you get it out (positive thinking for you) make sure the ceramic tip is still intact. I wonder if the EZ out might cause the ceramic to crack and fall into the engine. Good luck!!

[uptoblackwood]

Maybe I spoke too soon. http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you_remove_a_broken_spark_plug

Might be worth a shot.
It might work.....but the plug broke off for a reason. It was probably stuck in the threads pretty good. Be sure to take their recommendation and use plenty of lubrication before you give it a go.

[motomac]

Rich, if you have any machinist aquaintences, confer with them before you go any farther. In order to use an EZout you have to have a hole in order to get a purchase with. Usually when somethng is that tightly threaded, the EZout ends up broken in the threaded piece your trying to get out. It may indeed be better to bite the bullet and pull the head and have a machne shop get the threaded part out.

[Tdinova]

Happened to me 2 years ago on my 1981 CB750 Custom .. I was going along and then I heard the air pushing in and out ,, The plug looked exactly like yours except the porcelain was still on the end sticking out .. I have easy outs and used it to extract the threaded portion .. Your plug hole is a long ways down... I know you felt like me 'Holy CRAP what happened':o: :o: :o: :o: :o:


BEST OF LUCK ;)

ask around it must be a common problem ..

[Zrider]

Not knowing the total scope of the problem, is there any way to turn the problem up-side-down, and let gravity assist? Never mind! I thought the little cap on top of the spark plug dropped down into the cylinder head.

[GRN]

Plug was probably overtightened when it was put in, in which case you're lucky it held together. Regardless, and I say this from experience with the same problem on a CB750, head has to come off or you'll end up with some undesirable matter in the chamber. It's all bad, man... but it is doable.

[ST1300 Alicia]

Pull the Cam Covers Off First. They will have to come off anyway, if you have to pull the Head. You will then be able to get a better look at what your dealing with. Some engines will have a Spark Plug Tube that protects the Plug Wires from the engine oil. This tube is tight but it should screw out also. You will find the threaded jacket complete with insulator and electrode still stuck in you head. Cyl. 1&4 are usually companion cylinders as are 2&3 on a 4 Cyl Engine. Make sure by looking into the companion Cyl. Hole, that the Pistons for that pair are Down. Then with a small drift punch you can knock the center out of the jacket. If the Spark Plug was Fractured by Over-Tightening, as some have suggested. The Jacket Might not be as tight as you think it is. If that is the case, it Might come out with an Ez-Out. Then the ceramic pieces can be fished out or blown out with care. Make sure that the intake valve for the troublesome Cylinder is closed during this whole procedure, Lest You End Up With Parts In The Intake. If this does not provide a successful resolution to your problem, then the Cyl. Head will have to be removed and sent to a Machine-Shop for Repair. I hope this helps!

[George]

Once the threaded piece is out, you can vacuum thru the spark plug hole to retrieve the ceramic bits. I've used a piece of vinyl tube taped to the end of the vacuum hose to do this type of retrieval a few times. (Don't ask.)

The pieces probably won' fit thru the tube but the vacuum will hold them while ya pulle'm out. Save all the pieces and put'em back together to see that ya got'em all. I'd be concerned about scratching the cylinder walls if any gets left behind as ceramic is very hard.

Leave pulling the head til last resort.

My opinion,

[sirepair]

Just curious, what brand is the plug??

Looks like it was probably over-torqued. I'm with Alicia and Tdinova, knock out the center, try the EZOUT. Nothing to loose except hair!

If it does come out, try to take a vacuum cleaner INSIDE the plug hole to get any debris out (I have an attachment kit that reduces my vac to about 3/8" OD)

Make sure to closely inspect the threaded part to see if it has been cross-threaded. Get a thread-chaser (like a tap) and make sure that the threads are OK before replacing the plug.

Use some copper anti-seize when reassembling.

[gnorts]

Use some copper anti-seize when reassembling.
Yes! If the last person who changed the plugs had done this, you wouldn't be in this predicament. Steel plugs in an aluminum head: Anti-seize!

[MGDaversa]

I am not all that mechanically inclined, but I do feel obligated to speak up and say that this does not earn you the Moron of the Year award on two counts: one, because this may not have happened through any fault of yours (the more knowledgeable folks can either back me up on this or tell you otherwise) and two, because it's only January and that leaves more than enough time for one of us to top you before this year is over. Now seriously, good luck with this and let us know how it turns out. Ooh, bad choice of words...

[gnorts]

You get to fly the Screw-up Flag, but only temporarily.:cool:

[Mark]

On the same note:
I wanted to congratulate you on getting the award this early in the year!
:)

Actually I think the ezout and vacuum would be my choice as well...

Good luck!
Mark
P.S.
And I hope you don't hold on to the award *all* year!

[forgitaboutut]

thanks for all the replies!
plug is NGK...
I'm guessing it was overtightend..as I was trying to get it out....I was REALLY cranking on it....just wouldn't budge!...I don't think an easy-out is going to work...as I never got the plug losend in the first place!
and if you look at the pic closley...you can see some of the ceramic left on the plug..which would definatley leave small chips in there with an easy out....

[alphafang]

Rich
dont give up on it matey try the ezi-out. I've been there. I'm not saying that you didnt have the plug spanner on straight but if it wasnt and the plug was tight the neck point would give. Well it did on mine but it came out. I did it on number six cylinder on a V8 rover right under the exhaust manifold. I would have a go matey, as already said, what you got to loose a bit of knuckle maybe. It may be advantagous to remove the rocker covers first, it get's you that bit closer to the plug.

[travlr_45]

makes me wonder if it was crossed threaded when installed

[dmulk]

If this isn't your only mode of transportation, I'd pull the head.

Even if you get it out, you are always going to wonder if there are bits of ceramic floating around in there....

You might get a kick out of doing this work on the engine yourself. It's not too hard with the right manual. I know it looks bleak, but just take your time and try to make it a fun experience. :)

<D>

[Mark]

If this isn't your only mode of transportation, I'd pull the head.

Even if you get it out, you are always going to wonder if there are bits of ceramic floating around in there....

You might get a kick out of doing this work on the engine yourself. It's not too hard with the right manual. I know it looks bleak, but just take your time and try to make it a fun experience. :)

<D>

+1 on pulling the head.
Only I'm sure you'd know if you left any ceramic bits in there when you started burning oil or breaking rings (if the ceramic got wedged).
Good luck,
Mark

[BC Rider]

Rich:

I've heard of similar problems before. Ford has a TSB that describes some of the procedures that can be utilized to recover from such situations. Although the TSB is not written for your engine you can likely pick up some good information on some of the options and breakage modes for spark plugs. There are even some special tools available - if the spark plug size is the same they could also help you. I've linked to the TSB below. Good luck.


http://www.etoolcart.com/06152.pdf

[dmulk]

Wait a second..... can you get a better picture of the broken spark plug in the hole as well as what's left of the existing plug? (IE: Take a photo of the bottom of the plug....not from the side).

I might have an idea for you.... :)

<D>



quote=forgitaboutut;367463]:banghead:
Somewhere deep down in that hole....
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee142/forgitaboutut/53400489.jpg


Lays the rest of this spark plug! :sparkplu:
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee142/forgitaboutut/53400490.jpg


I got two out with no problem...I know I was turning the right direction
(righty tighty....lefty losen...)
any sugestions how to get this out,or is my Triumph off to the scrapyard?...:banghead:

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee142/forgitaboutut/53400488.jpg
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee142/forgitaboutut/53400487.jpg[/quote]

[ShinySideUpAZ]

Had this happen to a riding buddy about 20 years ago. Used a easy out to pull the plug, they were damn expensive and hard to find then. After taping out the center with punch. As said before we had to move the crank to get the cylinder down and the Input valve clear. I had a friend who had a bore scope. After Knocking out the center we looked around. Put penetrating oil around the plug. After removing the plug we vacuumed out the hole, first then used compressed air. Used the bore scope to verify all pieces were gone. I then put another 10k on the engine before. Bore scopes were hard to find then as well. Got ours from a shooting buddy. You can borrow them from Autozone now. If anything goes sideways, pull the head.

[forgitaboutut]

here's some more pics...I just got an Easy-Out set...I might have to give it a shot...

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee142/forgitaboutut/53400519.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee142/forgitaboutut/53400518.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee142/forgitaboutut/53400517.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee142/forgitaboutut/53400514.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee142/forgitaboutut/53400512.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee142/forgitaboutut/53400511.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee142/forgitaboutut/53400508.jpg

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee142/forgitaboutut/53400507.jpg

It will be a major pain because there is very little clearance from the tubular frame and the hole...
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee142/forgitaboutut/53400489.jpg

[sirepair]

If the threads are damaged there is a special tap and insert called "Full-Torque" (NOT a heli-coil) that is available to fix the head. linky
(http://fulltorque.com/sparkpluginserts.htm)
Seems that many a Ford Triton engine has some head issues where the plugs are being blown out, stripping the threads from the head.

My buddy's E-350 V10 shot one out and this type of repair was done to it. He's put several thousand miles, while pulling a tandem enclosed trailer, on it since then.

[Mikiver]

You might be able to used compressed air to pressurize the errant hole. Through the exhaust maybe? If you can get the valve timing right, it should work. That way, when drilling or punching out the core, the debris will be carried out if you take care and go slow. Taking the valve cover off is a good idea though. More/better access etc. If you damage the threads in the head,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Mike

[ShinySideUpAZ]

If you are going to try and move air/debris out the exhaust, remove the pipe. I'd be concerned about debris damaging the Catalytic convert.

[Mikiver]

ummmm..Shinysideupaz..I meant for the debris to come out the spark plug hole as you work on it.

[ChipSTer]

Has anybody asked this one?

What does the manufacturer of the, obviously defective, spark plug think about the situation? And what do they think their liability should be because of it?

Just asking... :confused:
:cool:

[ShinySideUpAZ]

Has anybody asked this one?

What does the manufacturer of the, obviously defective, spark plug think about the situation? And what do they think their liability should be because of it?

Just asking... :confused:
:cool:

Yea, Good Luck with that. . . :bigpop:

[nm6r]

What does the manufacturer of the, obviously defective, spark plug think about the situation? And what do they think their liability should be because of it?


How is the spark plug obviously defective?

My guess is the installation was defective (overtightened).

Ray

[ChipSTer]

How is the spark plug obviously defective?

My guess is the installation was defective (overtightened).

Ray

Spark plugs are SUPPOSED to break? How can that be blamed on the installation? :confused:
:cool:

[nm6r]

Spark plugs are SUPPOSED to break?

I wouldn't say spark plugs are suppose to break under normal usage. I would say they can't be expected to be indestructible.


How can that be blamed on the installation? :confused:
:cool:

Let's say the spark plug was installed way too tight. Not to the point of breaking but close. Hot/cold cycles, corrosion (no anti-seize) and some length of time later it's time to remove the plug. Now the threads have a tighter hold on it than at the time of installation. Upon attempting to remove, the plug shears at the weakest point, where the threads meet the body.

If it wasn't installed too tight and/or some anti-seize on the threads, it would have come out without breaking.

Ray

[ChipSTer]

I guess I just didn't realize how fragile spark plugs really are... :oops: I would have thought that the metal they were made from would hold up after numerous heat/cold cycles and would be strong enough to be removed even without using some sort of anti-seize oil... Now if the engine was too HOT or too COLD (due to expansion/contraction), I could see how it would have a pretty good grip on the plug... Still thinking it should be made of sturdier stuff though... :confused:
:cool:

[sirepair]

I guess I just didn't realize how fragile spark plugs really are... :oops:
:cool:

When you look at it, a spark plug is basically a bolt with a hole drilled through it (weakened). Where the thread cut stops (at the bottom of the "head") will be the weakest point. This is really easy to visualize if you think of where most bolts break off at, especially in a bi-metal setting; right at the head.

Spark plugs are also designed for a fairly low amount of torque (when you compare the size of the plug compared to a normal fastener). A 14mm threaded plug should be torqued about 20 ft/lb in an aluminum head. And they are not very hard, compared to bolts.

Also, along with the heat cycles is the bi-metal corrosion. Hence the need for some type of anti-seize.

[ChipSTer]

Never too old to learn!!! :22yikes: I guess I learned something new today... I think I'll go out and re-torque my plugs... (just to be on the safe side!) :D
:cool:

[MileHigh]

Hey Rich,

If it was mine, I would find the firing order and, manually rotate the crankshaft so that the cylinder in question was at TDC (Top Dead Center)-Valves closed!

I would then try to punch out what is left of the ceramic, in the middle of the threads, down into the cylinder.

I would then use plenty of penetrating oil (PB Blaster or GM heat vale lubricant) with an easy out or screw extractor to remove the threaded part.

I would then follow up with a vacuum to try and suck out what is left. If you get the biggest pieces out, especially the metal, you might be safe. Very small ceramic pieces will pass on through the exhaust valve when started.

On old GM diesels, when a glow plug would break, GM service procedures allowed you to break the glow plug off, dropping the carboned up end into the cylinder, and then run the engine to "purge" the remaining pieces of ceramic. Sounds like hell though. :eek:

Know any mechanics (or Doctors) with a boroscope you can use to look in the hole when done?

My guess is the plug was NOT over tightened. Probably corrosion. Fairly common with newer engines with aluminium heads and steel threads on plugs. Do a google search on Ford Triton engines.

Otherwise, pick up a head gasket set and pull the head.

[Don B]

Rich,
If you really want to play it safe, go ahead a bite the bullet; buy a shop manual, if you don't already have one, pull the head, and take it to a qualified machine shop. There's a good chance the spark plug hole will have damaged threads and the "Full-Torque" thread insert will be required. If that turns out to be the case, I would seriously consider having thread inserts installed on all the cylinders. A race-car engine builder once told me his shop uses thread inserts on all the aluminum-head engines they build as a matter of course to avoid stripped threads. You'll also be a lot more confident that you've removed all the potentially-catastrophic debris from the cylinder when you have the head removed. All this labor & necessary gaskets & seals, etc, will be somewhat expensive now, but it may be more cost-effective in the long run by minimizing the chances for more expensive engine damage that might result if you try some short-cuts. That's my $0.02 worth, anyway.

Good Luck,
Don B.

[forgitaboutut]

Thanks agian for all the replies!
We might try to work on it this sat,if I can get some heat in the garage!
A buddy of mine seems pretty confident we'll get it out and cleand up ok...

This is great learning experience for me...the bigest being "PATIENCE" and taking your time in doing things!....Something didn't feel right, right off the bat...someone should have been behind me saying something like,"Son,put that wrench down and back away from motorcyle very slowly!"...

[saaz]

I don't think you have the award sewn up just yet. I have a few little things to do this year, as do others, and most of the year is yet to pass :)

[GRN]

I would then try to punch out what is left of the ceramic, in the middle of the threads, down into the cylinder.

I would then use plenty of penetrating oil (PB Blaster or GM heat vale lubricant) with an easy out or screw extractor to remove the threaded part.

I would then follow up with a vacuum to try and suck out what is left. If you get the biggest pieces out, especially the metal, you might be safe. Very small ceramic pieces will pass on through the exhaust valve when started.

My concern for this would be that the excess oil left in the chamber in the second step would be abundant enough to keep some pieces of debris from making it out via the vacuum ... making sure the chamber is clear when all said and done would be my biggest concern.

[Papa Bear]

My concern for this would be that the excess oil left in the chamber in the second step would be abundant enough to keep some pieces of debris from making it out via the vacuum ... making sure the chamber is clear when all said and done would be my biggest concern.

This was my thought exactly.
Good Luck!

PB

[Red Duke Rider]

Know any mechanics (or Doctors) with a boroscope you can use to look in the hole when done?



Great idea Mile High. Seems like I saw something at Home Depot the other day that basically amounts to a 12" boroscope with a small TV screen. Saw it near the tool rental area. This might be something that is not only available for purchase from HD but you might be able to rent one. Seems like it was being marketed to electricans to aid them in fishing wires through tight spaces, etc.

Might be a way to remove the remainer of the plug and then take a look to see if the motor needs to be pulled out or the plug replaced and fired up.

[Red Duke Rider]

Found one at Amazon.com. Not a bad price. Handy thing to have.

http://www.amazon.com/ProVision-PV2636-21-Shaft-Convertible-Boroscope/dp/B000I6K4WA

[forgitaboutut]

My Friend -JOHN ARNOLD- :bow1: :bow1: :bow1: Got the plug out!!!:bow1:
:bow1: :bow1:

He doesn't ride,and is an auto mechanic...when he got it out he said :I'll have My steak Med.Well...to which all I could think of to say was "how many!!!":bow1:

It was time consuming and required alot of patience!
we were going to attempt to take the head off... but reading the book....
therre sleves or somthing on the pistons?...and the book says this part was difficulty job of 5 (1-5)...he didnt want go there...so we got it to top dead center,he had a dremil with a snake-like attachment with a small drill on the end...
I PB blasted a few times before... and we ran the shop vac very often!
after 3 hours drilling on and off,and sucking out with the shop vac,he put some sticky stuff on the end of a drill bit (stuff they use for installing windshields....) and was able to pull out the electrode/core of the plug!
after that it was all down hill! ...easy-out gripped what was left in there and I'm confident we got ALL of it out!
all that could be left was particles the size of dust...(from drilling...)
Guess I'll find out when we put it back together and run it!

I told John if he Gets his cycle licence he is welcome to ride it whenever he wants to!:bow1:

Thanks for everybody's suggestions on how to fix this!!:bow1:

BTW...A head gasket kit for the Triumph was over $200.00!!!:eek:
I'm sure glad we didn't have to go there!...looks like the ST's are $28ea!

[crazykz]

Wow Rich. I'm glad you got it out.

A little anti-seize might in order on those plugs next time.

Curt

[thunderfootblue]

Good show. Congratulations.

[Papa]

Just found this thread Rich, glad you were able to take the short route. :bow1: :bow1: to your buddy!