Cee Bailey windshield review. +6W,+2H [Archive]

NormanPCN

04-20-2005, 07:54 PM

This is the text of a review I posted on August 2, 2003 on the st1300.us site. I am bringing this review over to this site since this is my preferred board. The text is unchanged. I will post my 1 3/4 years experience comments in a reply to this message.

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I have just installed and tested my +6W, +2H Cee Bailey (CB) windshield. Photos are attached. I have the ABS model with the electric shield adjuster.

First the the objective stuff.
The CB shield does have a +6W (+3 each side) width increase at the top of the stock shield height. It is important to remember that CB measures width increase at the stock shield height, and not the top of their shield. The width increase of the shield at the widest point on the bottom is 2.25" (1 1/8" each side). Measuring the height increase is tricky since the ST has a variable shield position and the angle of the shield varies as you raise the shield. The shield is actually 2 7/16" longer than stock. With the shield all the way down the height increase is about 1.25" and with the shield up it is about 1 7/8" inch taller. The CB "eurocut" on the top of the shield is about 5/8" inch. CB measures height from the center of the shield and not the tallest portion of the shield.

At my height 6'4.5", 34" inseam I get air into my upper chest with the shield down and if I raise the shield all the way up I am looking through the shield.

Now the subjective stuff.
It is obvious but I will say it anyway. The shield does push air further away from my body.

The CB shield seems to be more effective at a given height than the stock shield. I attribute this to the port/hole in the shield. The air coming off the top of the shield is quite clean and smooth. The air from the port mostly runs up the backside, or close to the backside of the shield. I do not use the shield raised up high so I have no idea if the air passes more directly at your body or not. With my shield positions the port is never higher than the dash top.

For hot weather I have rolled down my jacket collar and unzipped the jacket a few inches to get air into the jacket. With the stock shield, the turbulent air entering the jacket made it bounce around and this kept me from doing this normally. With the CB shield I can do this comfortable because the air is clean.

The eurocut does not seem to mean much. At least nothing obviuous enough for me to detect. From the riders perspective the stock shield was round and the CB shield looks mostly flat. I was hoping this cut could get more air to the chinbar vent while the higher edges still kept air of the shoulders.

Backpressure is reduced quite a bit. I do not notice my jacket pressed against my back until around 55mph or so. At all times and speeds the pressure is less. This means it takes less air pressure entering your sleeves/vents/collar to lift the jacket away from your skin and stay cool. Depending on prevailing winds and such I have found that with the shield deflecting the main force of wind into my chinbar/visor area I can get enough air into my collar to keep the jacket off my back. No need to move my hand(s) to the outer portion of the grips/handlebars. Small adjustments of the shield up or down to change the amount of air to the collar area are all that is needed to keep the jacket off my skin when a tail/head wind. I should point out that the sleeves on my Darien jacket upen up wide and I leave them that way in warm weather. Not enough air enters the sleeves to lift the jacket with my hands on the grips but I am sure it contributes.

Turbulence buffeting your jacket when behind/around cars is reduced my a nice amount. I attribute this to the increased width of the shield.

While I do have the electric shield, I ordered the 2 inch taller shield because I need to raise the shield a bit because of my height to get the air where I want and the taller shield lets me keep the wider bottom of the shield lower and not open up much of a gap between the mirrors and the shield bottom. With the shield lower the angle of the shield is less and should help reduce backpressure and therefore drag. A 4 inch taller shield could work for be but I did not want that for two reasons. First, I want to be able to lower the shield to get air into my chest for lower speeds on hot days. Second, the CB shield width increase is measured at the stock shield height and I wanted a taller shield wide enough at its top position to cover my shoulder width for cold days.

NormanPCN

04-20-2005, 08:32 PM

I the photo showing me on the bike the shield is raised probably 1-2 inches. No, I do not ride unprotected. I am shirt sleeve to show the shield relationship to my body. A bulky jacket can obscure this.

I have since decided I want more air into my chest and I have cut down the shield 1.5 inches. I did this in two steps. 1" and then an additional .5". This makes the shield about 1" longer than stock. I will live with this for a while to decide if I want to cut any more. I put the stock shield back on the bike to get an idea how low I wanted to go. When raising the stock shield for arm protection I rediscovered the horrendous backpressure of the stock shield. I fixed that and I discussed that in this thread. http://www.st-owners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2756

I figured this modification would improve the CB shield as well and I was not wrong. Backpressure and turbulence are even further reduced. Picture attached of the cut I made. This time the shape mimiced the stock shape. I did this cut in two steps. 1.5" and then an additioinal .5". Basically the middle is just a hair above the halfway point from the bottom of the shield mount trim and the bottom screw of the trim piece. The bottom vent on the CB shield is lower than the stock shield, hence a bit more is cut off.

It is a shame that all the shield manufactures, except CalSci, seem to be clueless about properly venting the 1300 shield shape for backpressure and turbulence. I base this statement on my experiments with the stock and CB shields. No problem, you can fix most/all of this issue.

Since I also wanted to reduce turbulence at the full down position and given how CB cuts their vent port, I trimmed the flap of the port off. I later opened the port up some, 1/8", on the top side. Not much you can do with the bottom.

With this shield I get full lateral coverange of my arms and shoulders when raised and I can feel the air when lowered. The best of both worlds.

In hindsight the best stock CB shield size for me is the +6W, stock height. No problem, you can always cut it shorter by yourself. You cannot make it longer.

Also in hindsight, given my experimentation with shield venting, I would get the CB shield without their vent port and vent the shield myself, basically just like the CalSci shields (bottom opened up and vent ports). The CB vent port is fine with the shield raised some, but is restricts the bottom vent when the shield is down.

STPilot

04-20-2005, 08:53 PM

Thanks for the post Norman, I've actually been considering a bigger shield and have wondered which one to get. I too am a bit taller (6-3) and I've been trying to figure out "how big" to order, this helps.
Tim

NormanPCN

04-20-2005, 09:05 PM

I know what you are going through. I went through the same things before I bought the CB. What I like about the CB shield is that their width increase is more towards the top than at the bottom. The stock shape is reasonably wide at the bottom. Although, for the +6W CB I think it should be more than 1.5" wider at the bottom. 2-3" would be more like it. For a +4W it is basically about right.

Dave Wicks

04-25-2005, 10:18 PM

:) :04biker:
I was out of town for a few days..conference near Toronto..I have put some miles on since installing a C-Bailey 6 in. wider..stock height on electric adjuster...I'm really pleased..I've gone from a half helmet to a CL 14 full face...These two things have really improved the ride..I run the C-Bailey at the bottom unless it's really cold or windy..then I move it up slightly..Bike feel's good...less effect behind trucks..theory: I think the wind turbulence behind truck was pushing arms a bit..slight steering input..with stock shield..now it's gone..hhmmmm... I'm 5'71/2" 160 lbs...Still lots of wind noise..but I always wear ear plugs...Have a Stealth Sargent back rest on the way from Pirates Lair...tried to get one from CA Sport Tour..they could not get one from Sargent who has the back rests made at Pirates Lair...go figure..don't want to talk about price difference...oh man!! :mad: But I need to get one on bike get the wife riding..tired of waiting... :)

NormanPCN

04-25-2005, 11:45 PM

:) :04biker:
Bike feel's good...less effect behind trucks..theory: I think the wind turbulence behind truck was pushing arms a bit..slight steering input..with stock shield..now it's gone..hhmmmm...

That is as good a reason as any. Whatever the reason, we and others have found we are bounced around less in bad air with the BA Cee Bailey windshield.

Austin city limits

04-26-2005, 08:05 AM

Norman~~~

Here is a question...

You comment on wanting the venting just like Mark has on the Calsci shield...

You know Mark and like his product...

Is it just that you already had the CB Shield before Mark started making his or,,, do you like the CB shield all in all better than Marks???

NormanPCN

04-26-2005, 03:07 PM

Mark (CalSci) knows what he is doing in how he vents the shields for minimal backpressure and therefore turbulence. He does not make a shield in the size/shape that I want. If he had such a size I would buy one in a millisecond. At the time I put the stock shield back on the bike was hacking on it, Mark came out with his Medium shield and I noticed from the pics that my bottom cut was basically the same thing he was doing.

That said..., for *me*, Cee Bailey has the best available shield size. My want are to go low enough to feel the air, yet protect the upper arms and shoulders in cold. Being tall and with broad shoulders I need something significantly wider than stock at the top. So the +6W Cee Bailey is *my* closest ideal you can buy. Realistically the +4W would probably satisfy pretty well also. Mark's +2W medium I do not know. In part it depends the shape of the shield. The CB shield have a strong curve to them. A bit more than stock I think. If Mark's shield is "flatter" then it would be more effective at a given width.

That said... The Cee Bailey vent port does work reasonably well, but IMO you can do WAY better with a little effort on your part. I am still experimenting with my CB. I recently closed the CB vent port with tape. With my cutout at the bottom I like that better than with both. Sure a little more backpressure, but the "flow" of the air seems better. I think the vent port is just too high when the shield is raised and the shape compromizes airflow a little when down. Need to ride more for a better determination. Remeber than even all the way down venting is important. While you might not be concerned with backpressure, turbulence can be reduced and therefore make the shield quieter.

I am probably going to use my current CB shield to hack on and experiment and then eventually get another CB and use what I have learned. I am interested is seeing what the Clearview like outside vents can do. I do not expect too much regarding backpressure given their position and the angle of the dash behind them, but they might affect turbulence on the sides. Problem is I do not get mcuh airflow and therefore turbulence on my sides given the width of the shield.

I am basically out of control. I am the curious type and quite frankly I am having some fun modifying my shield. The simple mods I have thusfar outlined are quite effective. IMO Whatever shield size/shape you like, stock, CB, Clearview or Rifle. Vent it yourself.

Austin city limits

04-26-2005, 04:01 PM

Norman~~~

You and I are pretty close to the same size,,, I,,, uuummm,,, just have a couple inches less height,,, and a lot more of a "Tub of Goo" middle... :eat2:

The Shield Mark makes covers me as if it was made for me... Picture of me on my ST in the height I ride with the shield... Notice how well the shield covers the area of your arms and shoulders...

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5da07b3127cce91019288719000000016108EatWLds4bi

Picture of me on ST with the shield in the down position... Wind still gets below my neck and tops of shoulders...

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5da07b3127cce9101928ff0a700000016108EatWLds4bi

Picture of me setting in my garage,,, on the centerstand,,, while "The Lovely Cindy" takes a picture of me... To add real live action to it,,, I was making "Vroom -VROOM" sounds when it was taken... :biker:

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5da07b3127cce9101937fb0cf00000016108EatWLds4bi

I agree with what you say... It is almost fun getting the shields cut down to the perfect size you need... But,,, thats why if your going to error when ordering,,, I would rather see everyone error on buying to big... It is harder that frigg'n HECK,,, to add to a shield,,, compared to cutting some off... ;)

NormanPCN

04-26-2005, 05:34 PM

Yep, Mark's big shield is probably the best big shield out there. Great hand coverage and well as upper body. I am sure passengers really appreciate it. Heck, it is passenger buffeting that got Mark into making deflectors for his ST and his passengers. Only then did he decide to try and sell the stuff. Thanks a bunch for posting the seated postion with Mark's shield. I could always cut down his big shield. I always get a chuckle when people, including manufactures, post a picture of a shield on the bike without a human body frame of reference. You have to be carefull and not get the camera too close otherwise the shield will look bigger than it actually is. You did better than my original review. Two pics. One all the way down and the other in the "typical" postition. I only did typical.

The other interesting shield out there is the Rifle. If the tuning blocks open up the bottom vent enough there is no reason it cannot work well. They also flatten the shield which can help shorter people get clean air. I know for a fact how to well vent a stock mounted shield. The Rifle approach is interesting.

I agree about your sizing comments. Error on the large side. It always sucks when you get something and think, well... it is good but I would have liked more.

AZST1300A

04-26-2005, 06:12 PM

I just bought a CB +6 wide, stock tall based on ya'lls review. This site really gives me more confidence in my Farkle buying decisions with the mass of experience posted. Thanks for the information...again!

1999purple

04-26-2005, 06:16 PM

:03biker: Hi, I too have the CB 6+ 2 shield light tint. I find the shield to work far better than stock. I'm only 5' 10". My only complaint is riding in heavey rain. that vent lets alot of water in your face. :03biker:

AZST1300A

04-26-2005, 06:17 PM

I thought they made a plug for that???

NormanPCN

04-26-2005, 08:04 PM

I'm only 5' 10". My only complaint is riding in heavey rain. that vent lets alot of water in your face.

You must be running the shield pretty high. That is an issue with the CB port. I is positioned an a couple of inches to high. Try putting some weather stripping around the port. Most of the water that comes through any hole in any shield is "rolling" through the port. Water that hits the shield and blows up and then through. This is the/a reason Clearview has the rubber trim for their ports.

I only rode in the rain once with my CB. The port was a non issue. More annoying were the drap clinging to the back of the shield and flicking towards you. I never look through the shield. I found the best thing to do with the shield in the rain is position it to the point where a downdraft is on your faceshield. For me this is well below eye level. This downdraft blows water off your faceshield just like the blow dryer at a carwash.

NormanPCN

04-26-2005, 08:11 PM

Terry,

My only reservations about Mark's big shield is that I am afraid it is too big. Specifically too wide down low. Actually I think the "perfect" shape for me would be a cross between the CB +6W shape and the large CalSci shield. The CB should be a little wider at the bottom and you have choices of length. The CalSci should be narrower at the bottom and shorter. Either way perfection, for me, takes a little work to an off the shelf design. At least perfection does exist.

Austin city limits

04-27-2005, 12:07 AM

Norman~~~

Marks Calsci shield has a very simple,,, but very effective washer at the bottom connection to change the angle just as you speak of on the Rifle... By doing so as you say,,, it brings in more air,,, reduces buffeting,,, and helps keep the shield angle more aggressive which helps smooth air...

My main concern on a Rifle is,,, the quality/thickness of the material used... On my Concours I had to buy 2 shields over 30,000 miles as the Rifle produced star cracks around the bolt holes,,,and at high speed the shield would really vibrate around... The star cracks were from being to tight maybe but,,, the stuff Mark makes his Shields out of is close to Bullet proof!!! :cool:

The washer idea can be used/should be used on everybody's shield... Young/old/short/tall/CB/Marks/Rifle/Stock/other... It will increase the shield angle,,, which will smooth out the airflow... And that,,, is priority # 1...

Dave Wicks

04-27-2005, 09:59 AM

:04biker:

Hi Austin City Limits..notice that you have the Honda deflector kit around mirrors and down fairing...What's your comment on how effective those units are?? I still have CalSci clear deflectors for above and below mirrors. With the C-Bailey 6 in wider..stock height the above mirror ones won't fit...I've been trying to deal with passenger buffetting..which is a back pressure issue..The C-Bailey was a step forward...considering other deflectors that don't mess up the body work...Thoughts??

Dave........ :)

NormanPCN

04-27-2005, 10:05 AM

Terry,

Yea, I have thought about finding some plastic washers to put under the shield as an experiment. I was going to try washers top and bottom and just bottom. Is Mark's washer just a simple plastic washer? How thick?

Austin city limits

04-27-2005, 10:58 AM

Dave~~~

I like them,,, very much...

I came off of a Concours and was use to having calm air around my hands... The Concours is second to none on getting that done and in stock mode,,, the ST was lacking,,, a lot...

The Lower deflectors will help push hot air away from the bike,,, so it will keep you cooler in the summer... In the winter your legs are out of the wind so you win both Summer and Winter...

The Mirror Deflectors work... Before without them??? My hands were in the wind/bugs/rain... Now,,, there is calm air around my hands AND,,, I truely do think they help with the passenger buffeting too...

Austin city limits

04-27-2005, 11:09 AM

Norman~~~

The washer is simply,,, a piece of Marks shield material cut with a small hole saw to form a 1/4 inch thick washer...

The "Farmer" in me says an even better idea for you to try is,,,

Go to Autozone/Pepboys/Whatever and get a "Windshield Motor Bushing"... :hun1: They are a hard rubber and look like a set of Truck dual wheels... :hun1: Meaning,,, the rubber has a groove cut into them so they sort of look like miniature dual truck tires in a way...

Take a sharp knife and cut them down the groove or,,, cut 1 tire off the dual as it were... Take your dremel or sander and smooth off any ragged spots and,,,

SHAZZAM!!!

You will have a 1/4 hard rubber washers that should be just the berries...

ADDED NOTE!!!

Mark sent a little longer bolts for the bottom nut with the 1/4 inch washer added... You will need to go to your local John Deere Dealer/

(((sorry,,, old habits die hard... I spend more time screwing around looking for weird stuff at my JD Dealer for my bike,,, than I do on my farm stuff)))

Lowes/Bolts-R-Us/Menards/Home Depot and get a well,,, 1/4 longer bolt... :D

Dave Wicks

04-27-2005, 01:51 PM

:04biker:
Thanks for the feed-back Terry..I might try the Cal Sci under mirror, I already have them..I think I would have to trim the Honda above mirror deflectors to work with C-Bailey in the full down position which is where I run most of the time. I was also wondering about increasing the angle to pick up more under screen flow. I have been looking at BMW's (not to buy, love th St) but to see what they have done with the wind...Lot's of afterthought add on's check it out..Protection and buffeting/noise..hard to find a balance. Come on Honda..take leadership with the ST in dealing with the wind..With your resources get the thing in a wind-tunnel...But hey if they don't us "farmers" will fix this thing...That's part of this great hobby isn't it.. :)

NormanPCN

04-27-2005, 02:56 PM

Come on Honda..take leadership with the ST in dealing with the wind..With your resources get the thing in a wind-tunnel...

All the bike manufactures know what needs to be done. They simply choose not to. I have previously posted by speculation as to why they do not do certain things. You do not need a wind tunnel to properly vent the windshield to minimize backpressure and turbulence.

The last time I talked with Mark (CalSci) he was saying that he was convinced that the manufactures simply draw something up that looks good and go with that unless it is severly bad. I agree with this remark. Mark has done shields for the ST1300, FJR and has recently been working on a BMW part. I did not ask which BMW model.

NormanPCN

04-27-2005, 03:01 PM

Terry,

I was just at Home Depot to get some fine steel wool to help clean that damn melted plastic bag off my left pipe. I went to the hardware section for the heck of it and found a suitable nylon spacer. Not quite 1/4". I think it was 13/64. 38 cents. Unfortunately I had no idea what the bolt size was so I guess I will need a return trip.

wb5tty

04-27-2005, 09:54 PM

I talked to Mark at Calsci, and have narrowed the new windshield to his med or large. Before reading this post I had just about settled on the med CalSci but now I thinking about the Large. I have a Cee Bailey +2h+6w without the crappy CB vent. I wish some one had a picture of the CB and large CalSci stacked so I coul see the difference. Searching for the perfect windshield is a hard trip! I do about 90 miles a day in the country and don't like getting hit by pea gravel and large bugs so I like big windshields. Oh yes, the wife also likes the big windshield when she is hanging to the back of the ST1300.

The one thing I know is that I don't want to buy another CB because those folks are such *&%$! I would ride with a stock windsield before I bought another CB. Very poor quality control and the people at CB leave a lot to be desired. Customer service at CB starts with them bending you over a barrel just before they bring out Studley the donkey.

I can see nothing but more indecesion, hell I am confused. I don't know what to do!!! Isn't bigger always better. :eek:

Dave Wicks

04-27-2005, 10:07 PM

:04biker:
Hey Anthony..
I feel your pain man...I have a Cee-Bailey 6 wide, stock height which I bought 2nd hand..perfect shape..and one of the good ones regarding distortion..I would have bought one from a company called Clearview..www.clearviewshields.com ..800-798-6089 had this used one not come up. I spoke with a young guy there..seemed to really know his stuff..very easy to interact with..Check that out it might be just what you are looking for..

Dave :)

NormanPCN

04-28-2005, 12:24 AM

NormanPCN

04-28-2005, 12:50 AM

I wish some one had a picture of the CB and large CalSci stacked so I coul see the difference.

Someone is trying to do this at the MSN site. He has since deleted the photo overlay he created. He took my old CB picture and Terry's CalSci picture and overlaied them. Unfortunately my CB picture does not have the shield all the way down. As this thread has stated I have cut down my shield to 1" taller than stock, which amounts to 1.5" cut off. The CB +2 is actually +2 7/16.

Terry can you supply the approx distance the camera was from the bike in his photo. I assume the digicam was at the wide angle position (they turn on to that setting). I can take another picture of my CB and give a shot at overlaying our photos.

Austin city limits

04-28-2005, 12:54 AM

I would guess about,,, 8 ft "The Lovely Cindy" was standing in front of me... ;)

NormanPCN

04-28-2005, 12:58 AM

Terry, I may be asking a bit much but I got got an idea. Take the CalSci off and overlay the stock shield on top of it like I did in my CB shield review. I used allen wrenches to hold them in position. Take a photo. I can then use the stock shields of each photo to scale and position the two photos. Instant overlay, and my overlay photo is before I started hacking on it.

Austin city limits

04-28-2005, 01:23 AM

Will Do Norman!!!

But,,, I am about to go back to "Farm Mode' if it does not rain so,,, I will see when I can get the picture snapped...

Can I just "Clamp/Tape" the original shield onto Marks Shield??? That way it will not have to be taken off the bike??? If this will screw up your formula,,, just tell me as I will help out any way I can...

NormanPCN

04-28-2005, 10:19 AM

Can I just "Clamp/Tape" the original shield onto Marks Shield??? That way it will not have to be taken off the bike??? If this will screw up your formula,,, just tell me as I will help out any way I can...

Should work just fine. Take the plastic trim pieces off though. Put the shield all the way up since if you look at my overlay the shields are basically near vertical. This will keep the perspective of the two photos similar so that an overlay of thw two can work.

I think this overlay will answer some peoples questions.

This brings up an issue for shield manufactures. Nobody shows a picture of their shield size(s) with the stock shield overlaied. As trivial as this is makes it all the more puzzling.

wb5tty

04-28-2005, 01:10 PM

NormanPCN

04-28-2005, 02:27 PM

Look forward to the picture Norman, thanks guys for the effort! Norman the CB vent blew crushed bugs and rain directly into my face. Needless to say the bad spot in the field of vision was also a negative. Glad you were treated better than I was. I still think the guys at CB are a bunch of :butt1: :butt1:

Marks Jumbo windshield is looking really good to me. I am not too tall but I have a Wide Load problem. Again thanks for the help.

So you returned the vented shield and got a non vented one, or just bought another shield without a vent?

My experience with CB is a "non experience". Ordered, received, shield fine, installed, end of story.

The CalSci shield is the best jumbo shield out there. For some of us it is a too big. I never tried one. That last time I was at Mark's place he said come see my new toy. It was his laser table for cutting. He flicked the switch and BAM :eek:, the power supply blew up. At the time he was only starting to setup to make windshields. He did take a template of my CB +6W+2H shield. Mark's shield has the vent ports 1.5-2" lower than the CB from the looks of things. That is a + for you and the shield is taller which means you would raise the shield less and thus keeping the ports low. It sounds like you like the shield relatively high. Mark wants the air passing through his vents to hit the dash and disperse. That is why his shields are longer since at some point while raising the vent ports will clear the dash. The bottom never clears the dash.

NormanPCN

04-28-2005, 08:16 PM

I have corrected my measurement of the widest point at the bottom on the +6W CB shield. It is 2.25" and not 1.5" wider at the widest point near the bottom. Some idiot must have measured the shield a year and a half ago. :banghead:

NormanPCN

04-28-2005, 08:20 PM

This is a so so attempt at an overlay using Terry's posted picture and me attempting to match the perspective which is way too difficult. I need the exact camera disatance, height and focal length to really nail this. I drew some black lines around the bottom of the CalSci shield to compenstate for exposure issues. Note that the right side has what appears to be an edge of a shield, but this is false. It is the material of Terry's jacket. Pay close attention and all is fine.

Note that in this photo my +6W+2H CB is cut down to a real +1H and the bottom vent is opened up.

What this photo does shows well enough is that the +6W CB and the CalSci large have nearly identical profiles on the sides. The CalSci is wider and pointier at the very bottom. The CalSci is always +4H and you can get the CB in -2H to +6H in incremenets of 2. You can see the positional relationship of the CB port and the CalSci ports.

Note that my scaling of the photos to match sizes is only approximate. So don't take this as gospel.

NormanPCN

04-28-2005, 08:38 PM

Terry, I just remembered that you have the mirror deflectors. I have heard that Mark's shield conflicts with those when all the way down. Did you cut the shield to clear the deflectors? Information for anyone looking at the overlay.

Austin city limits

04-28-2005, 08:52 PM

Yep,,, I cut exactly,,, 1 inch off the bottom at the back of the shield,,, and tapered down to cutting nothing/0/nadda at the bottom front of the shield...

I am finally home after posting at "The Farm" today and if "The Lovely Cindy" will allow me to,,, I will go out to my shop and get some pictures for this science project we all are partaking in... :)

Norman ~~~

After all this,,, I will need to buy you a beverage of your choice someday... :D Or,,, if you show up at my house I will buy you Lunch at Moonshine...

I Shall Return... :cool:

Austin city limits

04-28-2005, 10:09 PM

Ok,,, I am back with pictures!!!

Straight on view... As you can see,,, I used my Einstein brain and just clamped the original onto Marks shield... But,,, did I take measurements of the sizes in added height and width... No,,, No I Did not... :(

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5da09b3127cce910a36f1064400000016108EatWLds4bi

Side view... You can really see where Mark made his shield shorter at the bottom to capture more air to smooth out buffeting... Then,,, add in the vents as Norman correctly said putting them low so as to "Diffuse" the air stream as it hits the dash along with the washers at the bottom to increase the angle of the shield to more closely follow the angle of the faring and THAT,,, is why it is so much smoother airflow... IMHO of course...

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5da09b3127cce910a36f3064600000016108EatWLds4bi

This is the best view I think...

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5da09b3127cce910a36fd064800000016108EatWLds4bi

Really,,, Honestly,,, the shield isn't THAT much taller than the original... I really can not figure out why most would not want the added height if you ride as I do... The added height makes it so you raise it just a little,,, instead of a lot... By not raising it a lot the angle stays more aggressive and the airflow smoother...

If you run with the shield all the way down you might ask yourself why you do??? Is it because of the original shield buffeting you so bad that the only calm air you could find was virgin air and you just put up with the blast of air and ran it all the way down??? If so,,, try out someones larger/better shield... If you ride WANTING the full blast of air and that is how you want it??? Wider might be all you need...

I truly believe that what some call a high speed wobble is when their shoulders and arms start catching air in an example as they approach the rear of a Semi... I took my shield off and put the original on to test out this very theory...

With my stock shield down all the way the closer to the rear of the Semi,,, the more I was pushed side to side...

I raised the stock shield up and it actually made it worse...

With Marks shield,,, I had a small wiggle,,, but about a 25% reduction with the shield all the way down compared to stock... With Marks shield up compared to Stock??? I am guessing about a 50% reduction in Semi Quiver...

Austin city limits

04-28-2005, 10:12 PM

Ok,,, I am back with pictures!!!

Straight on view... As you can see,,, I used my Einstein brain and just clamped the original onto Marks shield... But,,, did I take measurements of the sizes in added height and width... No,,, No I Did not... :( Marks shield is the shorter one at the bottom... It is sort of hard to tell... This one and the Back view were taken with the shield up as high as it would go...

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5da09b3127cce910a36f1064400000016108EatWLds4bi

Side view all the way down... You can really see where Mark made his shield shorter at the bottom to capture more air to smooth out buffeting... Then,,, add in the vents as Norman correctly said putting them low so as to "Diffuse" the air stream as it hits the dash along with the washers at the bottom to increase the angle of the shield to more closely follow the angle of the faring and THAT,,, is why it is so much smoother airflow... IMHO of course... You can also see why with the Mirror deflectors I had to cut 1 inch off the bottom rear of the shield so the shield would go all the way down...

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5da09b3127cce910a36f3064600000016108EatWLds4bi

This is the best view I think...

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5da09b3127cce910a36fd064800000016108EatWLds4bi

Really,,, Honestly,,, the shield isn't THAT much taller than the original... I really can not figure out why most would not want the added height if you ride as I do... The added height makes it so you raise it just a little,,, instead of a lot... By not raising it a lot the angle stays more aggressive and the airflow smoother...

If you run with the shield all the way down you might ask yourself why you do??? Is it because of the original shield buffeting you so bad that the only calm air you could find was virgin air and you just put up with the blast of air and ran it all the way down??? If so,,, try out someones larger/better shield... If you ride WANTING the full blast of air and that is how you want it??? Wider might be all you need...

I truly believe that what some call a high speed wobble is when their shoulders and arms start catching air in an example as they approach the rear of a Semi... I took my shield off and put the original on to test out this very theory...

With my stock shield down all the way the closer to the rear of the Semi,,, the more I was pushed side to side...

I raised the stock shield up and it actually made it worse...

With Marks shield,,, I had a small wiggle,,, but about a 25% reduction with the shield all the way down compared to stock... With Marks shield up compared to Stock??? I am guessing about a 50% reduction in Semi Quiver...

NormanPCN

04-28-2005, 11:00 PM

<<<If you run with the shield all the way down you might ask yourself why you do???>>>

To feel the air. I felt I have been insulating myself too much. I put the stock shield back on. Nice but not enough protection, cold/frozen shoulders, even when raised a bunch. So now I am moving towards something wide but low so I can feel the air and the width gives protection when raised. Yes, this is a compromise. A shorter shield when raised will not be as good as a tall shield like yours.

<<<You can really see where Mark made his shield shorter at the bottom to capture more air to smooth out buffeting>>>

Actually who knows. I know Mark's laser table has a finite size and when he took the template of my big CB it did not, or just barely, fit on the table. Mark obviously ended up with a +4H shield (the CB is +2.5) so by not extending below the mount he could make a shield that tall. Look at his Medium shield. It does extend below the mount more like stock, but the bottom vent is still raised like the large shield.

Bribak

04-28-2005, 11:28 PM

Hi guys, it's me...Brian... from over on ST1300 MSN! Glad you guys are continuing this discussion! Forgive my following rambles...I'm really just thinking out loud and hoping you guys will maybe help me see something I haven't seen before.

Norman, I'm posting your overlay with the outlines colored for a little bit easier compariison. Did I follow the lines correctly? The lines of the Cee Bailey were a bit hard to see at the bottom of the shield. I was surprised that the Cee Bailey seems to have quite a bit more shield length at the bottom than the Calsci does.

Now, just so I've got it right, your modified Cee Bailey is 1" taller than stock, with an enlarged bottom cut-out vent, and an enlarged rectangular vent as well - correct?

I have been thinking about this all day at work. Today, I raised the stock shield exactly 4" from lowest position - and rode to Work. I wanted to see if I could live with this height being the lowest position possible if I got the Calsci LARGE shield. My conclusion was that I couldn't. It was only about 60 degrees today, but even at that temperature, I found I really wanted to lower the shield when I got on some back roads and my speed dropped to 40 - 50 mph. When it gets hotter, I know I will REALLY miss the ability to put the shield down that low. At 4" higher than stock all the way down, the air was hitting me in the face (which was fine), but with the stock height all the way down, I get air from my chest on up to my face (I'm 6'4"). I also really just "feel" much more sporty in the twisities when the shield is all the way down low. I like looking out WAY over the top. Maybe it's a mental thing...but there it is. Also, I'm afraid that the Calsci with its total hand protection would keep me from getting some cool air on my hands during the hotter days.

I have no doubt that the Calsci LARGE is the best choice for total protection from the cold and the smoothest air possible. Also, it would probably be the best for my passenger. But I think I'd rather raise the shield some when she's (the lovely Myra) on board than to have to live with the 4" higher position all the time. I ride solo about 90% of the time. I don't think I'm willing to give up the flexibility of the extreme lower shield position. It seems to me that if I cut down the Calsci LARGE to stock height, I am probably defeating the whole purpose of this shield. Mark (of Calsci) explained to me that the whole idea of the +4" height is so that it is not necessary to raise the shield in cooler weather. When you raise the shield, you create a gap above the mirror housings which lets in all that cold air. This is the problem I have now with the stock screen. But the trade-off is you're stuck with that taller screen all the time. It seems to me that the ideal screen would have the added length at the bottom (overlapping the fairing mirror housings) so that as you raised the screen there would be no gap created. When the shield was all the way down, it would ride above the fairing/mirror housings. Probably wouldn't look very good, though.

So it seems to me that what I need (want) is a shield WIDTH a little bit narrower at the bottom (maybe 1" narrower on each side) than the Calsci LARGE (for some summer air on my hands), +6" Width along the sides (both the Calsci and Cee Bailey seem to have identical width for most of the shield height) and stock height for the most flexibility in shield adjustment. If I get the vent-free Cee Bailey +6W, stock height, I will have to do quite a bit of lower vent modification and also create my own cut-outs in order to make it have all the benefits of the Calsci vent system. If I get the Calsci, I will be cutting about 4" off the height and probably trimming the area around the hands a little narrower (this might be difficult?) for hot weather riding. Which modifications would probably be easier?

So...what to do? I am also considering the Calsci MEDIUM (2" wider and 1.5" taller), but I'm not sure this extra width will be enough. Do you guys feel most of the change to SMOOTHER AIR will come from the INCREASED WIDTH of a new shield, or an IMPROVED VENTING SYSTEM. Would 2" wider than stock (the Calsci MEDIUM) make a noticeable difference in smoothing/quieting out the air?

Obviously, no one shield is going to be able to give me the best of all situations. It will be a compromise. For me, I want to have the shortest shield possible (at least very close to stock height) and still gain some smoother (and hopefully quieter) air at all shield heights for me and my passenger.

Glad to hear all your ideas.

Brian

Bribak

04-29-2005, 12:11 AM

Wow,

I just submitted my post and saw that you guys had just posted two more messages! Terry, thanks for the GREAT pictures. It doesn't get any clearer than that. Excellent!

I think if Calsci would make a +4.5" Wide shield at stock height...that would be about ideal for me.

I do want the option of extra air on hot days. I prefer twisty country roads as much as possible. Lots of time my speeds on these kind of back-roads are in the 50 mph range - where windblast with the shield all the way down is not so terrible. At these speeds I like to feel the air. Smoother air would be better, though. Unfortunately, the wind noise is pretty loud even at these speeds. Head buffeting is not that big a problem because most of the air is hitting me at chest level. I think added shield width higher up would help keep my arms/shoulders from being battered around.
While I was waiting for my ST, my dad would let me borrow his PC800. He has an aftermarket Rifle shield that I could just barely see over - wide and TALL. I remember being up on the Blue Ridge Parkway on a 90 degree day and just dying for some air movement against my body. Even with a Mesh/Tex air jacket, it was just a still pocket of hot air behind that big shield. I think this is what makes me hesitate about such a huge shield as the Calsci Large. Terry, I will be interested to see if you find this to be a problem as the weather gets hotter. I hope not.
Anyway, good talking to you all. I feel like I am really gaining a better understanding of all the things that factor into this.

Brian

NormanPCN

04-29-2005, 02:28 AM

Brian,

Your outlines are fine.

Smoother the air comes from lower turbulence. Venting the shield reduces the magnitude of the lower pressure area behind the shield. This reduces turbulence. See Mark's link (http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Products.html) for more explanation.

Another item is that the closer the shield is too your body the lower the turbulence. A longer shield gets closer to your body.

Of course a shield that pushes the air over your head and off your body is "smoother" air. Of course then a passenger might say otherwise.

The +6W+2H CB shield when all the way down did put air into my chest. I have been in up to 104F temps, with a MeshTex jacket and been fine. Fine is a relative term. 104 is not truely comfortable no matter what. All the way down the main blast was in my visor but of course their is a bunch or air below that. A well vented shield on the ST with the shield down has a strong flow of air running up the back side of the shield. This keeps turbulence to a minimum and while it is noisier than standing on the pegs, I think it is pretty clean airflow and quiet enough for those so concerned. The chin vent on my RF1000 works pretty well at that point. When I cut 1" off the CB then the chin vent started working about as good as in virgin air. As you raise the shield the vent air basically disconnects from the back of the shield and comes off the top of the dash.

I am with you about not wanting something so wide at the bottom. I have vented gloves but I still would not want more hand coverage.

I have recently taped the CB port, leaving only the bottom vent and the airflow was pretty nice with the shield up. Sure a bit more backpressure but nice air.

As for which shield would be best for you to create your own semi-custom design. Hmm. Cutting the bottom vent on the CB is easy and is in an inconspicuous area. Cutting the CalSci like ports I can't say. Have not tried it. After cutting the bottom vent and trying it out you may not care about the ports. Cutting the bottom outsides of the of the CalSci would be easy. Cutting the top is easy, but be paranoid carefull since this is a very conspicuous area.

One thing to consider, the CB shield has the funky recurve like the stock shield at the bottom outsides. On the +6W CB the magnitude of this curve (looking from the side) is much more than stock. CB is simply duplicating the stock curve but since the shield is so much wider the curve is deeper. This is a personal thing but if you do not like it then that might help your decision.

tdeboeser

04-29-2005, 07:43 AM

Wow, lots of info here. I'm a shorty compared to some on the list (5'8"). My problem is buffeting. I mostly ride with the shield full up (winter mode), or full down. When full down I have no issues, the air hits me shoulders/upper chest and is smooth (to about 90mph). Full up I get a little back pressure and tolerable buffetting.
But there are times when I would like the air to hit me in the visor, only there is way to much buffetting. I should mention that the buffetting is bad at 70+mph. In an earlier post it was mentioned that the aftermarket shield's shorter cut at the bottom might be part of what smooths the air out. Would it then be possible to modify the stock this way? Keeping what I like and smoothing out some of the buffetting?

Just a thought,

thanks,

Tom de

OH yeah! The ST's stock shield is far superior to the FJR's. I spent 4 hours on one, never got the shield to where is was tolerable. Good bike, just not as good as the ST.

Bribak

04-29-2005, 08:48 AM

Norman,

What is it about the Calsci MEDIUM (+2" wide, +1.5" tall) that you feel wouldn't meet your needs. Do you think the 2" width increase is insufficient for additional protection of your arms and shoulders? With the better venting on the Calsci (than the stock shield), do you feel this screen would basically be like the stock shield with less turbulent air? Any benefit to the passenger at all?

Thanks, Brian

NormanPCN

04-29-2005, 10:33 AM

In an earlier post it was mentioned that the aftermarket shield's shorter cut at the bottom might be part of what smooths the air out. Would it then be possible to modify the stock this way? Keeping what I like and smoothing out some of the buffetting?

See my post regarding this here. (http://www.st-owners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2756)

That post shows an arc I cut, and this thread shows the shape I cut in the CB.

NormanPCN

04-29-2005, 10:50 AM

Norman,
What is it about the Calsci MEDIUM (+2" wide, +1.5" tall) that you feel wouldn't meet your needs.

I have doubts that the +2W would provide enough shoulder protection. I base this on the difference between the stock shield and my CB shield. I put the stock one on for about a month recently to get ideas about how much to cut down the CB, or if in inbetween shield could work.

My thinking now is that a wide shield low enough is sporty feeling, gives a good feel for the air and when raised gives great protection for us large folk. I think stock height is "low enough" for tall people like us. Actually I think stock to +2.5 works depending on how much air you want to feel. To feel the air at lower speeds +2.5 is probably too high. The CB out of the box is +2.5 and I have cut it to 1.5 and currently at 1. I am going to cut that down to stock height tonight. I am doing this as an experiment to see if that is too low. Obviouisly I am treating this CB shield as a test bed that will be replaced. I have a number of experiments in mind. Understand that the shield as is, right now, is pretty darn good. I do not like the CB port in the all down position. Too restrictive of the bottom vent.

Bribak

04-29-2005, 10:48 PM

Hi Guys,

I emailed Mark Lawrence with the question of whether they planned any additional sizes in his windshield offerings. Here's the response I received:

" Mark Lawrence wrote:

> Hi Brian,
>
> We've been considering something between our medium and our large.
>
> All our shields have very smooth air flow, much less noise and buffeting than stock.
>
> Mark

So...I am going to wait a while and see what they might offer. I expressed a preference for stock height and +5" width increase. Maybe if others interested drop him an email to let him know, it might speed the production process up!

Take care, Brian

wb5tty

04-29-2005, 11:16 PM

I have been torn between the Med and Large Calsci. Maybe I should see what comes out new size wise! It is only money, maybe I need a Med for Spring/Summer and a large for Fall/Winter. I do have the Mirror Wind Deflectors and I understand there is a clearance problem with the Large Calsci. Boy talk about Flip-Flop, I am worse than a politician.

I am glad the group is here. The shared info here saves all of use money and disappointment. Norman good job on the winshield tests.

Looks like a medium Calsci for the warmer weather will be my choice. If mark comes out with something wider for cooler weather that clears the Mirror Wind Deflectors I will order one of them too. :)

Austin city limits

04-29-2005, 11:34 PM

do have the Mirror Wind Deflectors and I understand there is a clearance problem with the Large Calsci

wb5tty~~~

What you are referring to was me I think... My CalSci Shield was a Pre Production shield from Mark and I would not assume the shield is cut the same now at the bottom... It might be,,, just not sure...

Even if it does interfere it is a very easy fix...

Mark knows me well so you can e-mail him and ask him if the Large Shield Austin city limits/Terry Hammond has is the exact same shape at the bottom he sells now... I have known Mark for over 10 years and he and I are both Packer fans... He even went to Green bay on my season tickets last year and took a 76 year old good friend of ours to his first game in Lambeau that game...

Does my friendship cloud my vision on liking Marks shield... No/Nadda/nope... His shields are good,,, and a good guy to work with too...

Putt

04-30-2005, 07:45 AM

wb5tty~~~
he and I are both Packer fans...

We all have our faults, Terry..... :eek: :a13: :Chair1: :butt1: :o4: :duck: :crackup:

Putt...

wb5tty

04-30-2005, 08:11 AM

Thanks Terry. I will talk to Mark next week and ask about the clearance with the mirror wind deflectors on the large windshield. I will post the results. If the large clears then I will order the large while I have Mark on the phone. If there is a clearance problem with the large I will go with the Med for now. The large has more height than I need (5'8") but Mark said he did that so the windshield could be used in a lower position giving a better windshield angle. The width in your picture looks like what I want on the large. The Calsci vents look better than the CB.

Mark told me how the CB is made and how he makes his windshield. Mark has the best system without a doubt. Also Mark is much easier to talk to, seems to be a really nice guy who takes pride in what he builds.

Heli shipment will be here Monday, maybe new windshield by Friday! New Sargent set is so nice. I have about 500 miles on the new seat and I love it. Should have my ST dialed in by the end of the week. XM radio is great too. The Bel RX65 radar detector has been a good investment. My $150 Pelican Case - Top Box is also a nice addition. Only thing I might change is the intercom, might go to an Autocom Active 7 if the Chatter Box dies or I get a little motorcycle money built back up. So many nice ST Farkles so little motorcycle cash. The 04 ST will hit 10,000 miles next week and they have all been a blast. I have owned a number of different motorcycles over the past 30 years but the ST1300 is the best for how I ride.

Again thanks for the valuable info on the windshields everyone, I am ready to make the order!

wb5tty

05-02-2005, 10:23 PM

Talked to Mark today and the Large CalSci does conflict with the Honda Mirror Wind deflectors. Since I have the Honda Mirror Wind deflectors I ordered the Med. Windshield. I may go with the Large for cooler weather and trim the bottom of the large windshield like Terry did his. :(

It is soo much nicer to talk to Mark at CalSci than the people at CB :no1: . I will report on the Med. CalSci after I put a few miles on it. Mark is currently out of stock on all except the Large, so it will be about 10 days before mine arrives.

NormanPCN

05-03-2005, 12:07 AM

Yea, Mark's large shield is designed to get right down to the mirrors to provide hand protection. Even if you raise the shield some, the small gap will be quite resistive and still block most air.

Austin city limits

05-03-2005, 12:14 AM

I have mine up 2 or 3 inches and even cut 1 inch off the bottom edge at the back tapered to no cut in the Bottom front and STILL,,, have calm air...

gth1

07-05-2005, 06:16 PM

Hey Norman,

I first want to offer a sincere, "Thank you," for all of your commentaries on different windscreens and delineating the merits of each. It took much thought and time and I appreciate your efforts as I have learned much from them here today.

I have visited, surveyed and evaluated the following sites and products: The Rifle, CalSci, Cee Bailey and Clearview. (Note: At Clearview I could find NO ST1300 offering. 1100, yes. 1300, no.)

But now my brain is approaching dead and given a couple of givens I wonder if you would summarize? The givens: 1. I do not possess your talents for modifications. And 2. CalSci now offers a 'large' windscreen (which must not have been available in April '05 I think it was, when you suggested you would buy a 'large' in a millisecond).

Anyway, the conjecture/question? Knowing what you know and have learned about turbulance, etc., and, God forbid you were suddenly - dispossessed - of your modification talents . . . would you choose a CalSci 'large' widscreen over the rest of the current field?

Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,
gth

NormanPCN

07-05-2005, 08:37 PM

First off, regarding my "modification talents". I have never touched a mototool before and I never cut plastic with anything before.

CalSci will be coming out with a new shield size that is between the Medium and Large. It is similar in size to the CB +6W+2H shield. Without cutting, that would be my choice. The CalSci Large is too big for my tastes and always has been so. As a pure winter shield it is probably the ultimate. The medium is a touch too narrow in width.

Being really picky the CB +6W+2H has a slightly better shape in my mind. Asthetics are a very subjective thing. The new CalSci shield looks more rectangular than the CB in the similar sizes.

I replaced my experiment shield with another CB +6W+2H and it is vented basically like a CalSci shield. I will probably cut it down about an inch but I will live with the shield as is to get a better feel before I hack away. For *ME*, my experiments showed a +1.5 height a good compromize for low postion and lots of air and mid position protection. I never use a high position. Note that from my review the +2H CB is actually +2.5. My experiment had me cut the shield from the +2.5 down to stock height in three steps in addition to venting experiments and flattening out the CB vent.