Motorofficer Safety Uniforms-Fighting Tradition

[Motors]

As mentioned in a previous thread, many of the Motorofficers here ride their Department Motors poorly protected. Since most of us who ride see the need for proper and protective Motor clothing, perhaps someone's experience with trying or suggesting protective Motor uniforms will start the ball rolling.

The days of wearing the traditional horse riding boots and breaches should be over. Experience and common sense will tell you that we have one of the most dangerous jobs in Law Enforcement! The short sleeve polyester uniform shirt and half shell helmet should be seeing the distant past. Check out some of the protective gear the European Motor Officers wear. Flip-Up helmets, full leathers, or textile suits for warmer weather are the norm.

There are few Departments in the USA who go the extra distance and protect their officers with the proper riding gear. Some of the Departments in Oregon and Washington do utilize the Aerostitch Police Roadcrafter suit. I bought one myself with the intention of introducing it to my Department as potential safe riding gear for our Motor unit. I was willing to field test the suit at my expense for a year in all riding conditions and complete a report on my experience. Do you know what I was asked??? Do they make it in BROWN??!!! If Aerostitch did not, they were not interested. I called, and Aerostitch advised it only comes in black. The command's answer when I suggested protective riding gear (in any color) was, "we'll form a committee and discuss it." Guess who wasn't on the committee and what has been talked about for over two years without any action?

Change is difficult. But Motorofficers are out there every day enforcing traffic laws in an extremely dangerous enviroment without the proper protective riding gear. There will be change, but at what cost???

What happens when SWAT says they need some type of specialized gear???

It appears that nothing will happen until someone makes it a legal issue. Sad news for all of us.

Ride Safe and Often

Motors
"Saving Lives and Hydrocarbons"

[SoloTotoCoyote]

I think an interesting approach would be to do a video that simulates common impact damage that a motor officer might face. Show the effects and results when current standard equipment is placed into these conditions. You can also add stats for the different types of accidents officers had been in, the cost of lost man hours, and medical/disability claims. You can demonstrate other superior equipment at the same time. The best angle would be to explain it as motor officers are being required to utilize substandard equipment and make it public. Similar to the videos of our soldiers being poorly equipped.

[Rob Hephner]

I think you might have an easier time getting Aerostitch to make you a Brown suit. ;)

Seriously!

[Fireball]

Last September i was riding my old wing at about 45 MPH and crested a sharp rise on a mountain backroad and two large dogs ran out from behind an oak and stopped. I laid into the brakes and centerpunched one. Both dogs died. It stopped my front wheel and I tapped the crashbars to ground on one side, then overcorrected and went down on the other. The crashbars pretty much saved the bike. I was wearing proper gear. My steel toed boots showed the steel on one toe. My Rocket "alter ego" combo did it's job, darn near tore the knee pad out on one side, and scraped them good all the way from ankle to shoulder. The helmet's open visor scraped the ground but the helmet never hit. My gloves were also ruined. I got out of it with a sprained thumb and continued on to work, after waiting 2 hours for the CHP to take a report. I do not intend to ever ride wearing the equivallent of CHP issue. I hope you are not forced to.
In this instance, had I been wearing levis and non-reinforced boots, i believe I would have had serious roadrash and missed a few weeks or months of work

[hawkeyeST]

Management needs to know how much money they will save by reducing officer injuries and downtime. Let's face it, it's a business decision. Sad but true.

[thesmithiz]

I would contact a few o fthe gear companies I am sure several would be willing to go the firts step with you to "field trial" psme ideas. I can tell you as a card carring sales guy I would welcome the opportunity to open a new sales channel and can't you just picture Joe Rocket Police Gear and the ads that go with it........?

[agia]

Have you looked here at all - http://www.motorcops.com/phpBB2/index.php

I haven't (not a member & not a motor officer at my agency) but you may get some ideas here.

[1st1300]

I was with the Spokane Sheriff's dept for a while and new the motor leo's pretty well they said when they wanted to try and get better protection they were told the department did not want them looking too agressive or intimidating. More politically correct BS.Have you looked at any body armor that could be worn under the uniform? Just a suggestion

[Motors]

Last September i was riding my old wing at about 45 MPH and crested a sharp rise on a mountain backroad and two large dogs ran out from behind an oak and stopped. I laid into the brakes and centerpunched one. Both dogs died. It stopped my front wheel and I tapped the crashbars to ground on one side, then overcorrected and went down on the other. The crashbars pretty much saved the bike. I was wearing proper gear. My steel toed boots showed the steel on one toe. My Rocket "alter ego" combo did it's job, darn near tore the knee pad out on one side, and scraped them good all the way from ankle to shoulder. The helmet's open visor scraped the ground but the helmet never hit. My gloves were also ruined. I got out of it with a sprained thumb and continued on to work, after waiting 2 hours for the CHP to take a report. I do not intend to ever ride wearing the equivallent of CHP issue. I hope you are not forced to.
In this instance, had I been wearing levis and non-reinforced boots, i believe I would have had serious roadrash and missed a few weeks or months of work

That's the point of this entire thread. We, as Motor Officers are in most cases forced to wear the out-dated, no protection, traditional Motor uniform.
I did forget to mention that when we asked to wear flip-up style helmets, command's response was "we don't want you looking like Motocop!" They are afraid more of the public response than they are of the hospital bills!

Motors

[motor2191]

Trust me, I've looked at everything! From Aerostitch to Motoport to Olympia, Joe Rocket, Icon, you name. NOTHING! NADA! ZILTCH! The Motoport stuff was the best, but it quickly became a moot point at $300+ per pair of pants. We simply could not request to buy $15,000.00 worth of pants! It came down to a calculated risk, how many have been down versus the dollar investment. As far as the other stuff, everything was just too damn hot to wear, actual riding gear stuff that is. Remember we do wear our bullet resistant vest under our clothing already, so one big part is covered. The stuff from Joe Rocket or the other trendy type manufacturers were "written off" due to the constantly changing look. In other words if we bought pants today are they going to look the same 6 months from now, well the answer is no. Plus, all the companies seemingly want to make every summer gear waterproof too, I'm not really sure WHY? but they do. Which basically puts everything out of the running due to our humidity levels. And trust me, I've looked at everything! You name, I've seen and tried it on and sweated my arse off in it too! Oh yeah, belt loops, that was the other issue. Half the pants we looked at didn't have belt loops, just some Velcro type straps meant to pull the waist tight. We need an actual belt to help hold our our duty belts with all of our gear on them. Not to mention that most of those pants have the "high back jacket zip-on strap thingy". This research really frustrated me! Maybe in parts of the country where the high is 70 that would be just fine, but when our days start in the 80's at O'dark thirty...Ugh! But with that said, most riding gear seems to be better suited for riding to the arctic circle in January, not riding to Orlando in August. If someone has an idea on how we can get this message to the major companies that would be miracle. But for now, and trust me I wanted it!, we're stuck with the 1930's get up. Face it, the only thing that has changed on most motor officers uniforms in the past 70 years is the addition of the helmet and the portable radio.

[uptoblackwood]

Maybe time to for a collective of motorofficers to hire a PR firm and report findings from the real world in the public forum. Political....yes....necessary...yes.

Keep up your efforts. I know bucking the "system" isn't fun....but sometimes necessary.

Forest

[nybryan]

what about some of the armor worn under you clothes?

[motor2191]

I'm ok with the traditional look, it's just the fact that there is no real protection in that style. If someone would make traditional uniforms that were woven with Kevlar that also had vented crotches, hip padding, etc. it would be great! As far as shirts are concerned, most agencies now require their officers to wear their bullet resistant vest, so aside from road rash from your elbow to your wrist, your torso is very much protected. The helmet is the other issue, we wear a line named SuperSeer. It's a hybrid 1/2 shell, almost a 3/4 type, but with more protection on the nape area than a standard 1/2 shell. It's what I wear when the heat wave begins. Most of the winter I wear a Nolan flip-up. Again, dressing to ride in the heat is something I don't thing 99% of the clothing companies can understand or even consider. In fact, I don't think 99% of the motorcycle world understands either. To begin, wrap your torso with a cling or saran type wrap, then put on a vest (your typical winter style vest that is), then a shirt, and then go stand outside in the direct sun for at least 30 minutes. Then let me know how you're feeling. LOL! Cooked, I'd say. Now consider wearing that get-up under a "vented jacket". I'd venture to say that 99% of riders, if given the choice, would pass on the addition of the jacket due to the protection of the vest. That's pretty much the sentiment of most motorcops. Again, consider our crash rate too, even though we put more miles in a year than most, we also have way fewer crashes. Thus the "bang for your buck" issue comes into play. Like I said on the Motoport stuff, great pants that are very cool, but a $15,000 purchase order for pants and we haven't had a rider down in over 15 years. The answer to that request, simple, "No." Maybe if we weren't so darn good! LOL!

[Mark]

I was going to point out Motoport too.
They do make gear for motor officers; but, you're right it is pricey... the same as what you'd pay for an Aerostich and that one would not have CE armor.
In this case I suspect the old adage is correct... you get what you pay for...
You might see if the force could buy a couple of suits each year... instead of buying them all at once.

IMNSHO:
Its all about letting them know the cost of having an officer down and out vs. back on a bike.

Good luck,
Mark

[Spencer]

If two seperate motorofficer fatalities in two seperate PRESIDENTIAL motorcade accidents last year didn't bring the need for better safety gear to the forefront then I don't know what will. Oh yeah...thats right....they where quickly swept under the rug and pulled from news reports :mad:

Kinda like a HUMVEE having a Kevlar engine compartment but canvas doors, they sure do spend an awful lot on those crashbars to protect the bikes.

Bassakwards if you ask me :shrug2:



.

[fitenfyr]

Not being an officer, but a public servant and used to dealing with this kind of junk.

How about your unions if you have them?
It is a matter of YOUR safety and if the department is showing disregard for your safety then it becomes a legal matter.
If YOU feel you are not properly equipped to do the job safely then I suggest an attorney to file a suit against your agency until they provide you with the equipment necessary to do your job safely.

In the fire service we run into this kind of political BS all the time and soon as somebody starts to mention arbitration or litigation the matter gets some attention.

Just a suggestion and I 100% agree with you about the LACK of protective equipment seen on some LEO's.
You are correct though the Washington State Patrol does a pretty good job although I have seen the short sleeve attire a few times.

[motor2191]

Don't forget that most of us on this website are modern thinkers too. Which is evident by the fact we're riding something that wasn't designed 70 or 80 years ago, it has linked brakes, most likely ABS, electronically adjustable windshield, etc. I've found that some just like the old look and they have the mentality of, "That's what motorcops have worn and that's what we're going to wear". They want nothing to do with anything modern. Never they mind the fact that the carry a semiauto handgun, a TASER, they carry a Motorola radio, a Bluetooth equipped computer and wireless printer, etc. When we tried something different I felt like an 10 year old with a disability in a room full of bullies! We tried Sidi boots, which were great, comfortable, breathable, water resistant, etc. A Nolan flip-up and then a Scorpion 3/4, a short sleeve shirt made with CoolMax with a 3M reflective stripe around it, the pants went undecided due to high price but we liked the Motoport stuff. But the point was that many many felt threatened by the change and it was hard to make believers out of them no matter what. Time's will change, it's only a matter of time...

[lawmanuk]

I see where you guys are coming from, I have experienced a 70mph slide across the road and thankfully my gear saved my skin.

We traditionally went for leather trousers/jacket but some forces in the uk are now allowing cordura with armour to be an additional piece of kit, however our force decided that cordura was not going to be issued. We tried it and yes the guys gave it some good reviews but with most of our guys dealing with bike accidents involving members of the public, and after checking injures sustained against kit worn on certain types of accident where the rider simply loses control the "slide" and subsequent melting of the kit caused injuries which would not have been so severe had that rider been wearing leather.

We had two suppliers of leather kit, both of which supplied gear with no obvious "branding". Our force would not openly advertise a particular brand, that apart, manufacturers logos on boots could not be avoided.

My issue leathers are a jacket/trousers made by BKS leather in Devon UK, which zip together at the waist to form a one piece suit, that made to measure garment cost about £800 and if you convert that to dollars you will appreciate the cost. It has lasted well, apart from liner replacement and a couple of panels replaced due to wear and tear I reckon my gear is about 6 years old.

Our gear is considered by an officer who has experience on the type of work we do. We ask, he considers and its either a yes or no. Put a strong enough case to him and its generally ok, this guy was replaced a few years ago, the dinosaur who was doing his job before was a right pain in the a$$ and refused to move on with advancement in kit development.

Keep at them, they must see the advantages of some protection.

[motorman35]

To be quite honest with our agency, we never had the limitations on going with tradition over safety...with that said you can't keep going to the well financially and expect a motor program to survive. You have to be budget conscious and be able to justify replacement intervals, initial cost, etc. I think I could have got our administrators to buy off on leathers, but...

Dollar for Dollar custom made professional leathers are not that much more expensive (versus 4 sets of pants/shirts combos) as they wear very well. For approximately $1K you can have a custom set leathers made with velcro around the waist (duty belt support) and have it fully punched for air flow and have all the armor, etc. The problem came in when you started to consider no air flow through the chest area with body armor on and the fact that you can only perforate them so much before you start negatively impacting durability. All the bells and whistles (POLICE panels, sewn on badges/patches, and reflective material were available) can be had in leathers. Sizing with seasonal weight up and downs is more of a concern with properly fitting leathers.

8-9 months of the year in western Oregon it would be great, but the other 3-4 months would be HELL. Gortex outer wear/rain gear would still be required in the winter.

Some of the progressive thinking of going to full leathers took a big hit when it came to good waterproof touring/riding boots and the cost of constant replacement (over easy multiple resoles on waterproof Danners). Good comfortable touring boots are cut/formed for riding not standing for long periods, running, etc. I go between 4-6 months per resole with the best soles we can find.

The other big hit came when it came to doing other police functions when the leathers hampered manueverability, running, apprehensions, fighting, etc. I think this is an essential difference between most European motor officers and US motor officers is the suspect threat levels...while not to say Eurpoean officers don't face severe and/or lethal threats...the expectation and truth unfortunately is that US oficers will fight with aggressive suspects/armed suspects/etc/etc more frequently. We continue to go to robberies, burglaries in progress, domestic disputes, etc. even though our primary functions is generally traffic. If a threat gets a hold of leather there is no twisting loose, stretching, ripping...I think if they got you from the rear neck line they would have full control to mame/kill you.

All in all, even though I would have preferred leathers for riding/safety, going away from full leathers was probably a good choice for every other aspect of normal day to day police functions.

The choice we finally came up with were Brat Wear yellow and black heavy jersey uniform shirts and 5.11 Tactical pants with kevlar reinforced seams and knee pad systems. We wear Danner Ft. Lewis boots and Shoei Multi-tec modular helmets. We wear either Aerostich road crafter suits or Water Shed rain gear with 3/4 bibs and short jackets.

[Viggo]

I wish you guys luck in getting updated protective gear. The wheels of bureacracy grind slowly.

I have to comment on the 'excuse' offered by some of not wanting to look intimidating. The usual horse boot/breeches combination most commonly in current use are already intimidating as hell. It's the old fashioned storm trooper look. Makes me think this 'excuse' is pure bull and they just don't want to flat out say that they don't want to spend the money.

[Blue STreak]

Do you guys have a union? I would think the union would be more receptive to your desires than management, and have more impact in discussions than you alone.

[motor2191]

Pick your battles...I say. Right now, now way. I've gone too many rounds with the guys and the brass over what is liked and disliked. It seems as though the only agreeing is the idea of disagreeing...These make me look fat. No. Your fat makes you look fat....LOL! They're too uncomfortable...These are great...These are too tight....These are too loose....These collect lint....These are too hot...Ugh! I give up! LOL!!!

[spd2918]

I feel your pain. My dept. HQ is 5 miles from Aerostich and they won't pony up for any protection. If I were to make an issue out of it they would cancel the program.

[RideHappy]

I'm not LEO. But I can empathize with the Motor Officer over their lack of proper safety uniform.

I do escort work part-time for an older guy(87yrs) who's had
his Security and Patrol business since 1946.
He's still doing his escort work too.

He's a "hard core" HD man. I told him if he wanted me to ride a HD, buy me one.
I used my Vulcan a couple of years. And end of Feb '08, I got the
new(yes, new) 2003 ST1100P to use.

When I started with him he gave me Motor pants, I bought the shirt and 3/4

white helmet, his son gave me a pair of patrol boots.

My regular gear was a Tour Master 3/4 waterproof jacket and over pants, and boots.
I already had Bohn body armor I used under under my cloths before I had purchased the Tour master gear.
So, I wore it under my uniform for the escort jobs.

I was never felt comfortable/safe with the Moto uniform and helmet.
I purchased a Shoei Blk/Wht Mutitech.

I did some research for a couple of weeks, and settled on the Motosport
(cycleport in San Marcos, CA) Police Kevlar Pant & Air Mesh Jacket.
Expensive, $1100+ with tax.
Wayne said his police pants are a popular item. He also said he has
contacted various California Law Enforcement agencies, and other states.

They are not very interested. He sales over seas too.

I purchased a pair of SIDI On-Road boots.
I sold my 3/4 wht helmet and Tour Master suit.

[tnman]

I think the biggest issue at lease here in TX is the HEAT. When I rode for fun I would not ride without anything other than a full face helmet. I ride at work with a 3/4 face. With temps nearing the 100 deg mark it is hot. The difference that I think civilian riders do not realize is that motor cops are not "riding" all the time. If I were going on a trip and riding all day on the interstate I would not have an issue with leathers, protective coat, etc. I spend most of my days either sitting on the motorcycle on the side of the road where the bike is hot from riding and I sit on top of it cooking, or I am standing on the hot pavement on the side of a running car getting its engine heat rolling on to me while I am writing tickets, working crashes. This is what kills me the most, I can whatever you want me to as long as I am running down the road with the windshiled all the way down getting air on my body, but when you are just standing there. It gets hot! Taking the stuff off is not an option, when I stop a speeder I am on the side of the road for about 3 minutes. It would not be worth taking off the jacket and putting it back on for that short of time.

I would be all for updated pants and a long sleve shirt that was breathable but I am not sure I could do a coat/jacket. You also have to consider that we are wearing the balistic vest mentioned in the previous post.

As for the 2 officers killed in escorts, I think, at lease the dallas one, would not have made a difference in clothing, speed, concrete curb and pillar are not good things to combine. Helmets have advanced a lot but they still can not do miracles.

[Motors]

I think the biggest issue at lease here in TX is the HEAT. When I rode for fun I would not ride without anything other than a full face helmet. I ride at work with a 3/4 face. With temps nearing the 100 deg mark it is hot. The difference that I think civilian riders do not realize is that motor cops are not "riding" all the time. If I were going on a trip and riding all day on the interstate I would not have an issue with leathers, protective coat, etc. I spend most of my days either sitting on the motorcycle on the side of the road where the bike is hot from riding and I sit on top of it cooking, or I am standing on the hot pavement on the side of a running car getting its engine heat rolling on to me while I am writing tickets, working crashes. This is what kills me the most, I can whatever you want me to as long as I am running down the road with the windshiled all the way down getting air on my body, but when you are just standing there. It gets hot! Taking the stuff off is not an option, when I stop a speeder I am on the side of the road for about 3 minutes. It would not be worth taking off the jacket and putting it back on for that short of time.

I would be all for updated pants and a long sleve shirt that was breathable but I am not sure I could do a coat/jacket. You also have to consider that we are wearing the balistic vest mentioned in the previous post.

As for the 2 officers killed in escorts, I think, at lease the dallas one, would not have made a difference in clothing, speed, concrete curb and pillar are not good things to combine. Helmets have advanced a lot but they still can not do miracles.

Or unfortunately, for his family and friends, inexperience. He had only been on the Motor for one month at the time of his crash! Poor decision having him work that motorcade.

[motor2191]

Not to arm chair quarterback but I have a tendency to agree with that...In the Orlando, FL. area you MUST be trained (3 days of training) if you are to participate in VIP/ Presidential escorts. There's a classroom powerpoint presentation and then the US Secret Service will assist in a simulated "package ". Good training that weeds some out...

[PJRNM]

Not to arm chair quarterback but I have a tendency to agree with that...In the Orlando, FL. area you MUST be trained (3 days of training) if you are to participate in VIP/ Presidential escorts. There's a classroom powerpoint presentation and then the US Secret Service will assist in a simulated "package ". Good training that weeds some out...


My Traffic Unit lost an Officer last August during a Presidential escort. We train constantly and he had been a motor Officer for several years. We still don't know why the crash occurred. The dynamics of the crash have been reconstructed, just can't figure out why the errors were made. Maybe nothing more than we are all human and can make mistakes or use bad judgment.

[motor2191]

Ain't it the truth! We are all human and we all can make mistakes, unfortunately some pay the ultimate price...God Bless him for his service...

On that note, we, in the Orlando metro, spoke about that crash. It was our understanding that there was a mishap with the radio communications. Is that true? Also we did have a question, do you guys brief prior to the escort and you informed of "passing" and "no passing zones"? And please don't take this as arm-chair-quaterbacking, it was just a hope to better understand the incident and to maybe help prevent such a tragic loss for us.

[PJRNM]

It was our understanding that there was a mishap with the radio communications. Is that true? Also we did have a question, do you guys brief prior to the escort and you informed of "passing" and "no passing zones"? And please don't take this as arm-chair-quaterbacking, it was just a hope to better understand the incident and to maybe help prevent such a tragic loss for us.

No problem, anything to keep it from happening again. In N.M., no single agency has enough motors to conduct a 'Presidential'. Because most of the visits originate in Albuquerque, A.P.D. is the lead agency. The motorcade is comprised of motors from all over the state. We are a suburb on the N.W. edge of Albuquerque and we 'field' 9 motors. We complete a myriad of motor training, including escort training with specifics from the U.S.S.S. (I won't go into details)

We do brief prior to any event and that particular day we started a new practice of pre-riding the entire route to familiarize the guys from out of town.

We did have a radio failure. As mentioned above, we have a number of agencies with different frequency's involved. We do have a common 'state car to car' but it does not work perfectly. (Different P.L. tones, access to repeaters, etc.) Even though the equipment that linked the different frequencies went kaput after the first half of the escort, it should not have made a big difference for the return trip. We were close enough to our destination that all the Officers I spoke to knew we were 'clear to site'.

When all was said and done, the only thing I can blame is a momentary distraction which lead to improper corner entry. :(

[motor2191]

Same goes for us. Lots of other agencies help in a Presidential. But do you guys "pre-post" the busy spots and are there "no passing" and "passing" zones that you are informed about prior to the ride? Example, your "zero bike" tells you your route takes you on Highway 10, but due to construction, there is a "no passing zone" from the Smith Ave. to Lincoln Rd. That way motors who are behind the package know they shouldn't try to pass so that they can get up front when they are in this area.

Funny story only in that the ending was fine, I got pushed off the roadway by "The MAN" one time. The linebacker moved right on an abandoned DAV, that pushed the package my way in a passing zone and I got the "sorry wave" from HIM. LOL!!

[PJRNM]

Same goes for us. Lots of other agencies help in a Presidential. But do you guys "pre-post" the busy spots and are there "no passing" and "passing" zones that you are informed about prior to the ride? Example, your "zero bike" tells you your route takes you on Highway 10, but due to construction, there is a "no passing zone" from the Smith Ave. to Lincoln Rd. That way motors who are behind the package know they shouldn't try to pass so that they can get up front when they are in this area.

Funny story only in that the ending was fine, I got pushed off the roadway by "The MAN" one time. The linebacker moved right on an abandoned DAV, that pushed the package my way in a passing zone and I got the "sorry wave" from HIM. LOL!!


Yes, all that is covered in briefing. We also have 'hard posts'. Guys in cars who block problem area's, pre posting, etc. They stay WAY out of our way.

[TNST_Rider]

Hello, all. I have been following this thread with some interest since last Sat evening, and have taken note of many needs specific to a motorcycle LEO that some of you have mentioned in your posts. I have taken the liberty to communicate some of these concerns and comments to a friend of mine who is in the technical garment industry. I am not attempting to be coy, but to put out a feeler on the seriousness of this discussion regarding the challenges of protective riding gear for our LEO motorcycle brethren.

Let me qualify first by making known that my connection with Perry is as a friend of over 20 years, and more recently has extended to friendly discussions regarding his business expansion into motorcycle riding gear. He has owned motorcycles in the past although not currently, and I ride an ST1100. I have no business connections with him for personal gain in the following discussion - I simply have followed your discussions and am attempting to present a need to a potential solution resource.

Perry has been in the garment industry for most of his career. Currently he is engaged in developing a market for a quality but economy price point line of motorcycle riding gear. We have been in conversation regarding this thread a couple of times over the past few days, and he has invested a little time in exploring the potential of working with a serious group of motorcycle LEOs to develop protective riding gear suited to their somewhat unique needs. These are not uncharted waters for him as he is working with other public service branches on similar technical needs and opportunities (for ex. fire departments - don't recall the exact application at the moment- and a local police unit for specialized rain gear).

We spoke at some length Friday and he agreed that I should float this to our ST-Owner's LEO group to see if some or all of you might be interested in engaging in a technical discussion with him to share your needs and preferences. Based on this and some further market analysis he is conducting, if the investment proves worthwhile, he may well be willing to develop some prototype garments with the end goal of making available for purchase through whatever funding systems various departments employ (personal reimbursement, department provided, etc.) a line of protective riding gear designed to meet the needs of the motorcycle LEO community at a reasonable price point (we all know that in the bureaucracy of our modern society, it all boils down to the bottom line).

I have contacted Mellow and outlined this discussion with him, receiving his approval to proceed with posting these comments to the LEO sub-forum and soliciting your interest and/or input.

So, is there an interest in moving this discussion to another level? If so, there are a number of ways to establish an interaction. Again - with approval - Perry is willing to register here as a user for that purpose. We may look at setting up a chat board to use for a technical interface. Mellow mentioned options regarding a private or public forum. Input?

Finally, rereading my own post makes me wish to clarify - this is not an attempt in any way to either obtain funds from anyone involved or to use individual's comments as any type of "professional reference" or anything like that, unless ultimately that is your expressed desire. Simply, I see your needs in discussion, my friend may be able and willing to work on a solution, but he needs your input on what you need and/or would like to see in a working protective garment.


Sincerely awaiting your considered response...

[motor2191]

Sounds great, sign me up!! I would love to see this actually happen!! Remember, 100% of us never will ride to the Arctic Circle in January, therefor highly vented clothing would be a requirement for those of us in the Southeast. Also, it must be affordable, like the issue we had with Motoport, we can't spend $20k on riding gear. We don't just need one pair of riding pants that can get funky on a 3 or 4 day ride. We need a clean pair everyday, kind of like underwear. LOL! Keep in mind we must be able to run if the need would arise AND we get on and off of a motorcycle upwards of 40 or 50 times per day (well, I do something like 15 to 20 traffic stops per day, plus lunch, breaks from the heat, doing paperwork at the office, etc.). Light weight is a must, if you picture racing leathers hanging up, see the bends for sitting in the saddle, then remind yourself, "NO!"....LOL!! Belt loops on the pants too...Oh, and if I may speak for everyone, we don't want to look like we just walked off the movie set of Starship Motorcops 2090 either...

[motorman35]

Count me in. I am very interested in engaging in a discussion to move motor officer protective equipment in the right direction.

1) Of course in the northwest we have different issues than say the southeast (like must be able to add polar fleece liner in the jacket for winter use as optional/removeable) but it can meet both needs because the outer shell can be highly ventilated with zippered closures/openings to add or take away ventilation. I personally think the Brat Wear jacket is excellent in this area (three available options 1) shell only, 2) polar fleece liner only as it is a jacket in and of itself colored alike and patches, badges, etc., and 3) the jacket and liner in combo), although it is not armored.

2) High visibility ID panels/ability to add patches and badge patch is essential.

3) Reinforced belt loops are necessary

4) Motor2191 brings up a good point about daily use (inner removeable/breathable/washable liner ???). Thinking out loud here but the outer shell doesn't necessarily need to be washed constantly/everyday, but a removeable zip out ? liner could be removed and washed...so the riding system comes with the outer shell/protection system and comes with 3 removeable under systems that can be washed and rotated? crazy?

[motor2191]

That's a good idea. Having a washable liner to keep out the funk down to a minimum, you know kind of like the Alpinestar boots have those booties. The reflective stripes are another good idea too. Still yet having the vented material is a top priority for us. I was running some errands today, it hovered around the 97-100 degree mark....UGH! Factor in our humidity level of 52% and you've got yourself a sauna with a "feels like" temperature of 110 F...Holly pooo that's hot....

[Mellow]

Good stuff, I'm making this thread a sticky... I hope something comes out of this, it would be great to see you guys with more protection that's also functional and affordable.

[Motors]

Hello TNST,

Thanks for taking the interest in our motor outerwear. I would be more than happy to discuss the above with your friend. Since I own both a Roadcrafter and Darien Light Police outfit, I may be able to help your friend in his design ideas.
IMO there is the need for more than one outfit. I do not believe that one outfit can provide all the options for venting and rain/armour, flexibility required for this very demanding job.

As I mentioned in the beginning of this thread, look at the Euro Motorofficers. In the colder months they have very noticeable (bright colored) leather gear, and they also have fabric suits for warmer or wet weather. As far as cost is concerned, that is always an issue. However, I am more than willing to pay for my own protection if only the outfit can be approved for duty. Perhaps with the cost of fuel, administrators will look differently at utilizing Motor units, ie., cost per mile, etc. and a willingness to protect their officers. As previously mentioned, the cost outlay for protective gear is much less than the possible bills, workman's comp claims, etc. that a Dept will endure.

Please contact me with any questions that your friend may have. My interest is providing the best possible protective gear for me and my fellow Motor officers.

Thanks for your interest.

Motors
Charles Bradley

[TNST_Rider]

I have had e-mail exchange with Perry since my initial post. I do not know if he has registered yet, or just viewed the site as a guest, but he has commented to me that he had read all the posts in this thread up to my post, which was the last at that time. I know that he is seriously interested in this discussion so your comments are or will be reviewed. Keep them coming! :)

I guess we could kick around a time slot to set up a chat session. It would be good to get as many interested contributory parties involved as is reasonably possible. Clearly, already, there are a variety of needs, but in my experience, at this point in the process you need all the brainstorming input that can be solicited. Obviously not all expressed "wishes" make it to reality, but a way to take a group's collective thoughts is to establish the comprehensive list of at least moderately realistic wants, then let the group weight each in a preset manner and you shake out a manageable but prioritized needs list from all the wants. That becomes the starting design envelope or target.

This is always fun: "Somebody set a meeting time" - yeah right! There are who knows how many varied schedules to attempt to coordinate!!! ;)

Just to open the ball, what does an evening time, say Tuesday or Thursday of this week, 8:30 PM CST sound like to the group? Perry?

Kick back your opinion - yay or nay - and/or suggest another option. It's the only way I know to start - somebody's just gotta start! :D

Mellow, once we (theoretically) get a time set up, what do I need to do to arrange a virtual meeting room?

[Mellow]

Mellow, once we (theoretically) get a time set up, what do I need to do to arrange a virtual meeting room?

Pretty much just click the chat link and go into it and start talking... this won't keep non-LEO Members out so just be aware of that. Also, we might need to get Mark to de-activate the squid-bot.

[pkhanc]

Hi everyone, my name is Perry Hancock. I was invited to this forum by Keith Tidrick who was already a member of the ST-Owners site. He asked me to review some of the posts and advise if I thought there was anything that could be done to improve the gear for LEO's. First off, let me tell everyone a little about me. I am the owner of Challenger Resources, Inc. based in Murfreesboro, TN. Although not a current rider, I rode for many years and had several bouts of road rash due to either my own foolishness, or someone else's. Challenger Resources, Inc. is a design, development, and sourcing firm with 36 years of experience behind us. Our client list includes many of the major brands who sell into the extreme sports side of things. i.e. mountain biking, snowboarding,skiing, water sports, mountain climbing, etc. This gear is not for the everyday user, but primarily for that 10% of the people out there who are adrenaline junkies and who have to have the best gear that will protect them and allow them to do what they do and yet live to do it another day. We generally see the newest fabrics for waterproof breathable, wicking, compression, phase change, etc., and just the latest and greatest fabrics a full 12 to 18 months before they actually get to the market during our design development phase. I am not going to paint a picture that it will be an easy task to do as I believe that the major speedbump here will be the different colors that every department will require. This will limit the the size of the fabric run and as fabric mills do not like to stop to change the spools which are required to produce the fabric, this will cause many if not all of them to brush this off. Companies like Aerostitch, Neese and others that supply traditional riding gear only offer it in limited colors because of this fact. So, with that being said, it does not limit the development and already I am excited to just look at the possibilites. I am curious enough to spend some time and effort to see if there is a better way to make riding apparel for LEO's. Some of the comments I have seen already seem to be the same no matter if you are in southeast Florida, or in Seattle. Comfort, protection with different ways of layering, etc. So, with this in mind, if you guys want to spend a little time to go over with me your suggestions/complaints regarding your current gear, to what would be the ultimate riding gear, I will attempt to put something together and we can see where this will lead. Again, I make no implied promises as I have been doing this long enough to know that you can make something that is exactly what everyone wants, but is impossible to obtain because of price. But, there is fabric available now that can protect you from road rash, from the elements, and still be comfortable to wear and affordable. We just need to implement design elements that are functional and can be agreed to by the majority. Someone in a previous post talked about the European LEO's, and yes their weather changes often so their gear has to be able to be multi-use. Let's see what we can do in the same vein. I will advise everyone that I travel extensively all over the world. If I do not reply to any posts for a few days, it just means that I am jet-lagged somewhere in Asia, South America, or some other place that we seem to have to go to make garments. As soon as I can I will reply. Keith has mentioned a chat, I am available for that as well. I look forward to a successful venture and that LEO's the world over can gain something from our discussions.

Best regards,

Perry Hancock
Challenger Resources, Inc.
105 Noble Court
Murfreesboro, TN 37128
Phone: 615.319.6784
Fax: 615.898.0464
e-mail: pkhancock@comcast.net
skype: pkhanc

[TNST_Rider]

I posted earlier this week suggesting a couple of time options but unfortunately no one has responded with preferences.

I suggest we set up this evening and see what materializes (no pun intended).

Thursday, June 5, 08 at 8:30 PM CT.

I will be coming in from an evening dinner appointment with a customer representative so if I am just a few minutes late, don't panic.

[Motors]

Welcome Perry. Thanks for taking interest in our plight. Perhaps we can put our heads together and come up with something for the American Motor LEO.

Hope to converse with you tonight.

Motors

Charles Bradley

[TNST_Rider]

A big "thanks" to those of you who were able to join in the chat session this evening - and another big "THANKS" to the mods who helped me get in the session, too! :o:

Good general discussion, good focus on pants (sorry, I'll admit I was kind of trying to steer the discussion to a focus). Perry was on the session and seemed positive about the input received. I took notes in the background and have forwarded them to Perry.

I commented in the session that I think we need at least one more discussion and it seems to make sense to me that we should focus on jacket needs. If you want to be thinking about your needs/wants along this line, we can jump right in next time (assuming we can all get signed in... doh!) and work on your thoughts.

I mentioned in an earlier post about ways to prioritize the "list", however there were very few disagreements or conflicting points in the pants discussion so, thus far, that has not seemed necessary. The only real variance seemed to be over the pockets. However, I think that is resolvable.

I will get with Perry in the next few days and see what his schedule permits, then post up our proposal for the next session.

Thanks again, and I am genuinely hoping to see a win-win solution work out here.

Sincerely,

[TNST_Rider]

Well, my family and I are on vacation this week - that's a GOOD thing!!!

but...

Where we are staying has only dial up connection which is horribly s-l-o-w. That's a not so good thing.

Finally, Perry is traveling some this week.

Looks like we may have to post-pone round 2 until one evening next week. I hope everyone understands.

[MotorSam]

Take a look:

http://www.webbikeworld.com/r4/motoport/police-kevlar-pants/

The above link can take you to the manufacturers site wher you can veiw a really nice euro style motor uniform.

Also:

http://www.bohn-armor-pants.com/catalog/?prod=BGLA

[Raven]

I heard a rumor that 5.11 Tactical Gear (http://www.511tactical.com/browse/Home/Law-Enforcement/D/20100/P/1:100:10000) is looking into making kevlar re-enforced pants and shirts for motors. It probably wouldn't hurt if folks dropped them a line (http://www.511tactical.com/contact-us.html) and let them know there's definitely a need and a market for it.

[MotorSam]

I heard a rumor that 5.11 Tactical Gear (http://www.511tactical.com/browse/Home/Law-Enforcement/D/20100/P/1:100:10000) is looking into making kevlar re-enforced pants and shirts for motors. It probably wouldn't hurt if folks dropped them a line (http://www.511tactical.com/contact-us.html) and let them know there's definitely a need and a market for it.

Good idea...this is what I was talking about:

http://www.motoport.com/

[Raven]

Yep, motoport is nice stuff but VERY expensive. Don't see a department going for the cost on it. However, I'd definitely see a department going for the 5.11 (since a lot do already) if the 5.11 folks can do something similar to what draggin' jeans and icon have done with the aramid layer and keep it economical.

[MotorSam]

OH ya I forgot about cost! Minor oversight:o: