St13 - Fjr - R1200rt

[The Highwayman]

Just got my most recent issue of Cycle Canada magazine and three writers decided to do a sport touring comparison of the 3 listed above...

2 of the 3 flat out picked the ST13 as the winner, the 3rd said the ST13 was the best value - but if money was no object he'd have a R1200RT.

They all commented about the power of the FJR, but cursed it's heat issue as unbearable. They also posted rear wheel dyno numbers and the FJR and ST13 are much closer together vs. the crank HP marketing numbers.

I love my ST, glad to see it get good press!! :03biker:

[Doobage]

woot! I think that probably sums up much of my feelings. The RT "might" be an option, but for the price it's not something I'd want to "guess" about. Glad dem' Canooks think the same.

[NormanPCN]

They also posted rear wheel dyno numbers and the FJR and ST13 are much closer together vs. the crank HP marketing numbers.


Longitudinal verses transverse crank is a reason the FJR loses more HP to the rear wheel. With a shaft drive a longitudinal crank is more efficient. With chain drive the opposite is true.

[Clark]

Longitudinal verses transverse crank is a reason the FJR loses more HP to the rear wheel. With a shaft drive a longitudinal crank is more efficient. With chain drive the opposite is true.

Norman,

You have a veritable cornucopia of information in your head! Always enjoy your posts, just get a kick out of the variety of details your able to come up with. Keep it coming!

Clark

[tdeboeser]

Longitudinal verses transverse crank is a reason the FJR loses more HP to the rear wheel. With a shaft drive a longitudinal crank is more efficient. With chain drive the opposite is true.


Makes sence, but i'm having a hard time imagining a longitudinal chain drive :p: ;) :-D

Tom de

[AgSTreak]

IT'S A LONGITUDINAL CHAIN WITH TRANSVERSE INPUT AND OUTPUT SPROCKETS.
Picky, picky, picky. :D :D :D

[Kempo-STer]

Shees..You engineers and scientists.....
I need a translator for you guys...I am not that smart :nuts1:

[jackpine savage]

They also posted rear wheel dyno numbers and the FJR and ST13 are much closer together vs. the crank HP marketing numbers.

:03biker:

Do you have the numbers from the article? The FJR must still have 20 HP or so on the ST.

[GRN]

Do you have the numbers from the article? The FJR must still have 20 HP or so on the ST.

I would be intersted too, because it may make a bigger difference than you think. I was surprised, not that I can recall the figures, at how much closer the K12GT and ST13 were at the wheel, as opposed to at the crank... almost dead even at the wheel I think... but not sure, just remember it struck me as a rather significant difference.

[The Highwayman]

Do you have the numbers from the article? The FJR must still have 20 HP or so on the ST.

Okay the numbers....

R1200RT

96.9hp @ 6750rpm
77.5lb-ft @ 6400rpm

ST13

113.1 @ 7600rpm
85.1 lb-ft @ 6000rpm

FJR

127.5 @ 7900rpm
90.5 lb-ft @ 6700rpm


Goldilocks said "this one's too hot, this one's too cold, this one's just right!!!" - know what I mean??? :03biker:

[tccox]

On the R1200RT did they mention what octant gas they were running ?????? Makes a difference on HP

[The Highwayman]

On the R1200RT did they mention what octant gas they were running ?????? Makes a difference on HP

The article didn't really confirm which fuel they used for any of the bikes tested, I would have to assume they used whatever the manufacturer recommends...

They do mention that the RT has a knock sensor that allows the use of lower octane regular fuel...

[Fastraveller]

Great thread. They didn't give the weights of the bikes though.

The August issue of Motorcyclist Magazine has the following:

ST1300 727 lbs 113.1HP 85.1torque

FJR1300 641 lbs 127.5HP 90.5torque

Cycle World and Motorcyclist don't have weight figures on the R1200RT . Another web site listed it's weight as the following:

R1200RT 570(wet wt) 96.9HP 77.5torque

That difference is significant especially considering that the Center of Gravity of the R1200RT is so low compared to the other two. I would imagine that the Beemer wouldn't win many races of all out performance, but it might be the superior bike for the real world since "all-out performance" is rarely usable even in the best real world conditions. I'm sure that acceleration rates favor the FJR and probably the Honda but maybe not as much as it would seem.

[Killtimer]

On the R1200RT did they mention what octant gas they were running ?????? Makes a difference on HP

The RT runs 12 to 1 compression and calls for 94 octane I believe, which is available in Europe. I imagine the HP will be down some running the 91 that's readily available over here. It will also be interesting to see how it handles oxygenated fuels.

[Putt]

Looks like Cycle Canada and or Motorcyclist "borrowed"
the HP/Torque figures from one another?? Hard to believe
that both publications had exactly the same results..

Putt....

[Killtimer]

More grist for the mill, May issue T.W.O , measured numbers:

BMW 104.4 bhp @ 6500 rpm, 98.3 lb.ft @ 5200 rpm
ST 115.4 bhp @ 7600 rpm, 85.3 lb.ft @ 6000 rpm
FJR 130.2 bhp @ 7700 rpm, 92.5 lb.ft @ 6700 rpm

Quote from the tech, page re: the BMW torque curve "Beemer torque curve looks like a snail on it's way home from the boozer" referring to the multiple peaks and valleys. :D

[Fastraveller]

Looks like Cycle Canada and or Motorcyclist "borrowed"
the HP/Torque figures from one another?? Hard to believe
that both publications had exactly the same results..

Putt....

My Apologies, I was only quoting the weights and I threw in the Cycle Canada HP and Torque figures because I simply wanted to add the weights to the previous information. Part of the reason I used the Canadian figures is that the HP and Torque figures from Motorcyclist (June '05 issue) WERE VERY close. I'll give those here:

ST = 114.1 hp @ 7500rpm 85.3 ft/lbs@ 6250
FJR = 126.8 hp @8000 90 ft/lbs @ 7000

Good catch on your part btw. It is still surprizing that the numbers are this close when you consider possible differences in elevation, humidity, barometric pressure, etc.

[Bones]

I am someone who always thought he wanted a BMW, an RT in particular. I have many Beemer buddies riding R's (from vintange to new) with a K or two in the mix. I never thought I could afford one and stuck with Hondas. When money was no longer an object I went checkbook in hand to buy an R1150RT. At the dealer's request I test rode it first. I returned half an hour later underwhelmed and left without a bike.

What underwhelmed me was the boxer motor. It's coarse and buzzy and vibrates. What sold me on the ST was the motor, smooth and refined. What I viewed as shortcomings (things like a lack of heated grips, power outlets, top case) were easily remedied. One cannot "fix" the character of the boxer motor, and I don't happen to like it. This is why R Beemers are not on my shopping list. A K Beemer, in contrast, makes the list, though the one I sat on in NYC was too high for me. (Are there no Germans 5' 7"?)

V-twins, L-twins, parallel twins, boxers (twins, 4's, 6's), inline 4's, V4's, triples....Apples and oranges, people. Ride what you like. I do.

Rubber down, all.

[Kempo-STer]

I am a proud owner of a 2005 R1200RT. I have had the opportunity to ride the FJR and the ST. I have friends that own them. My RT is considerably quicker and handles much better that my friends ST. The FJR is a tick quicker but once again the RT out handles it by far. The RT has better brakes than both (although not the best in the feedback department). We all took the bikes to 50mph and nailed the brakes. The RT was considerably shorter stopping. The FJR has the major heat issue thing which is why my first ride on it was my last. The BMW is more expensive than the ST ro FJR but as a complete package it cannot be beat. My friends love their bikes but the both say that they would trade for the RT if money was not an issue. Remember everything is power to weight ratio when talking about horsepower.
The ST is 727 lbs. with 114.1hp= 6.37lbs. per hp.
The FJR is 641 lbs. with 126.8hp= 5.06lbs. per hp.
The RT is 570 lbs. with 104.4hp= 5.46lbs. per hp.

As you can see the RT has more power to weight than the ST. The FJR edges it out a little in the HP dept.

All I can tell anyone who owns a FJR or an ST is do not test drive an R1200RT. Once you do you will not want to go back. It is that Good!!!



IMeyer,

You eyes are about to get opened...You are going to be about a successfull here as I would be at BMWRt.com..

I know you are a championing the RT...
But you are wrong..Many have tried the RT and see things a different way here...

We had this 'discussion' about the merits between the RT vs ST on BMWRT.com when my user id 'mysteriously' did not work and did not allow me to rebuttle you.

My point was that most of the 'measurable' elements between the RT and ST were pretty even. Give or take between this and that. Except things that are subjective..."soul" character, vibration/smoothness etc...

Then there was my main point... price..All performance figures being that close and then BMW tags the RT at 3- 5 grand more..

Then you're only comback was..I'll pay that for the 'exclusivity' of the BMW..A weak arguement in my opinion and a way for you to justify the purchase and 'why' it was so expensive. I'd almost buy into that in high school but those days are long gone..

Bamarider was able to say what I wanted to you which was 'becasue something is more expensive does not justify it or make something a better product"..That is only something in your head. If you 'need' to be part of that club than go for it..but discussing the merits of one bike versus the other are fine..but it has nothing to do with a need to for social acceptance or being made to feel 'part' of a group based upon a marquee and it's 'percieved' higher social status. I can't chage your mind of that, and no amount of bickering about the bikes can produce an outcome of what the original discussion was about..

(You remember the original post was feedback ABOUT the ST. BTW that is what I can't stand about that BMWRT site...Somebody wants to know a guestion that has nothing to do with BMW and invariabley someone goes ..have you considered BMW 'X'..I was almost tempted to start a thread.."What is the best "Fish Tank filter" and i guarantee someone on that site would throw out a response...OH YOU MUST get the 'BMW RT FISH FILTER'..blah blah..For a group that regularly trashes the 'Harley thing" it is so ironic how they act the same way with BMW)

In spite of it, you and all these guys I consider my brothers because of your love of everything 2 wheels...

[nm6r]

I'm kind of lost. It seems to me the ST and RT are two completely different machines. A state-of-the-art liquid cooled V4 and an air cooled opposing twin. I would expect the RT to be leaps and bounds better in every category due to the lighter weight. Every category except long term reliability. It's not better and costs a significant amount more.

Ray
http://www.frontiernet.net/~st1300rider/smile04Bikerwheelie.gif

[Blue STreak]

All I can tell anyone who owns a FJR or an ST is do not test drive an R1200RT. Once you do you will not want to go back. It is that Good!!!

Perhaps, as long as it's on the road. STs don't break. Late model BMW's do, with distressing frequency. And don't get me started on maintenance costs...

[Blue STreak]

Was the FJR and '05 or '06? Given the time of year, I'm betting on an '05. I'm still real interested in seeing how much the '06 revisions impact the heat problem.

[Bones]

And don't get me started on maintenance costs...

I hear they're working on that... :rolleyes:

[BC Rider]

Was the FJR and '05 or '06? Given the time of year, I'm betting on an '05. I'm still real interested in seeing how much the '06 revisions impact the heat problem.

It was a 2005 model, and I've yet to hear of a 2006 ride review.

[Bones]

the BMW feels like it was carved from a solid block of steel.:bow1:

That lightweight German steel, right? ;)

[kingprawnokay]

I agree with Bones' description of the boxer motor. Very underwhelming. It needs to be thrashed a lot harder to maintain speed when compared to the Honda or Yamaha. Also, the new RT felt (to me) as though it was going to fall over at low speeds due to the complete lack of torque and the side to side rocking of that ancient motor. The RT may, in reality, have a lower center of gravity than the ST, but it doesn't feel like it in town. The ST is much more stable.

[Blue STreak]

So just to reiterate, the RT is faster, handles better, has better luggage, more amenities, is more comfortable, stops better, and gets better gas mileage.

The ST is more reliable and cheaper to own.

I will stick with the RT.

To each his own. When I start out on a long ride, I like the feeling of knowing I'll still be riding the same bike when I get home.

[JReviere]

I cannot speak to the Beemer in reference to fit and finish. I've not examined an RT.

Whilst my ST was in for the last of the recalls the other day, I got a good LONG look at the Yamaha. Compared to the fit and finish, as well as the overall design of the ST, the FJR (to my non-artistic eye) looks TACKY. It looks like it is just thrown together from left over parts with "features" added as some kind of an after thought. It has klutzy lines and while it may work well as a unit... I can't speak to performance or subjective ride qualities since I've not test ridden one... to the overall image presented, compared to the ST1300, the FJR comes up short and a very definite second place.

The one I saw was a beautiful shade of BLUE, not unlike several other Yamaha offerings and not very different from the 04 ST1300. But, for how things fit together and how the design components work with each other visually... the FJR looked TACKY and CHEAP by comparison to the ST1300 sitting not 20 feet away.

Again, I'm no artist and can't say I have an eye for such comarisons, but these did stand out in STARK CONTRAST in my purely SUBJECTIVE judgment.

If Beemer has solved their persistant drive shaft and transmission failure problems, the Beemer with the klunky old Boxer, an old age yet proven basic design, even if it is no beauty, then the Beemer may be worth a second look. But they've got to GET REAL on the price and on maintenance before I'd ever consider buying one of the German farm tractors.
JR
STOC 394
03ST1300A
Lake Livingston, TX

[The Highwayman]

So just to reiterate, the RT is faster...

You'll notice from the original post(mine) this thread was about the positive press the ST1300 received, not about running down anyone's choice of bike. But since you have decided to stop by and be the troll let's straighten a few things out....

The test of the R1200RT I read shows 0-60 of 4.08 seconds, 1/4 mile of 12.02 sec. @ 111.88mph and a top speed of 137.2mph.

The test shows the ST1300 at 0-60 of 3.5 seconds, 1/4 of 11.47 sec. @ 116.16 and a top speed of 143.6mph.

Just were and how is the RT faster Bubba?

Power to weight is not the be all and end all, power curve, gearing and about a million other factors figure into final performance numbers.

[tccox]

What total BULL S***. I rode BMWs for 11 years prior to buying my St. I've tested the new R1200RT. MY ST is faster, better handling and has better brakes than the new RT. I've ridden both. Nice bike the RT but in no way is it the equal to my ST. I would not trade even for one. Good Grief, why am I responding to a flamer..........My old BMW dealer wants $19,000 to $22,000 for the R1200RT which is in FACT not comparable to a St1300 which costs thousands less.


I am a proud owner of a 2005 R1200RT. I have had the opportunity to ride the FJR and the ST. I have friends that own them. My RT is considerably quicker and handles much better that my friends ST. The FJR is a tick quicker but once again the RT out handles it by far. The RT has better brakes than both (although not the best in the feedback department). We all took the bikes to 50mph and nailed the brakes. The RT was considerably shorter stopping. The FJR has the major heat issue thing which is why my first ride on it was my last. The BMW is more expensive than the ST ro FJR but as a complete package it cannot be beat. My friends love their bikes but the both say that they would trade for the RT if money was not an issue. Remember everything is power to weight ratio when talking about horsepower.
The ST is 727 lbs. with 114.1hp= 6.37lbs. per hp.
The FJR is 641 lbs. with 126.8hp= 5.06lbs. per hp.
The RT is 570 lbs. with 104.4hp= 5.46lbs. per hp.

As you can see the RT has more power to weight than the ST. The FJR edges it out a little in the HP dept.

All I can tell anyone who owns a FJR or an ST is do not test drive an R1200RT. Once you do you will not want to go back. It is that Good!!!

[The Highwayman]

Your most recent post has decidedly different tone than your first post on this thread. As to the perceived hostility...it seems to me you're the one that posted about how your RT is fabulous and how the ST is crap. There was no malice towards your RT in the thread before you fired at the ST. I believe the phrase is "you reap what you sow"

[CarSalesman]

The power to weight ratios listed above are for an empty bike. Add 200lbs to each of the empty weights, while keeping the power the same, and the ratios are much closer. The difference in acceleration now comes down to the gearing, and the revolution range where the engine can make close to peak power. I've never ridden an FJR, but I suspect that is the actual acceleration champ of the three.

[Bones]

I believe the phrase is "you reap what you sow"
How appropriate when dealing with a tractor motor. :rolleyes:

[Tor]

How appropriate when dealing with a tractor motor. :rolleyes:
Not my tractor motor, I have you know, which has a Kubota 4 cyl diesel, and purrs like a cat with almost ST-like smoothness. The beemer boxer don't even come close in smoothness to this piece of marvel.:D

[Chris Parker]

All I can tell anyone who owns a FJR or an ST is do not test drive an R1200RT. Once you do you will not want to go back. It is that Good!!!


Well, hate to burst your bubble, but I did just that in April of last year. The R1200RT is crude in comparison to the ST, I felt like I jumped on a John Deere. And it just felt anemic compared to the silky smooth delivery of the ST. Just did not do anything for me.

And by the way, I had two RTs before getting the ST, so I was expecting more of a jump up from BMW on this one.

Chris

[Ken]

What seems to be lost in this thread is consideration for the discerning sport touring market. BMW and Honda are battling in a lucrative target group. The demographic is middle aged, has above average disposable income, and intelligent. Although I'm certain that some buyers are hypnotized by the allure of the BMW tag and would go for the RT simply to own the label, most are more concerned about form, fit, and function.

Consequently, when comparing OTD cost, maintenance cost, warranty options, performance (yes, including 1/4 mile times), range, comfort, technology age, modification costs, and their personality, the ST13 bests the RT for this group. The impulse buyer may choose the Ferrari for prestige, but the discerning buyer chooses the NSX for superiority. The same holds true for RT vs. ST.

[eddiemack]

Okay,.. There are other touring bikes out there to trash besides the RT and FJR. What ever happened to the Kawasaki Concours? Triumph Sprint? Or the new Moto Guzzi Norge 1200? With so many bikes out there these days picking on the same two models doesn't seem fair. Especially when I'd have them all if I had the money.... why can't we all just get along?... and yes,... I'd also have a Harley...

[Bones]

It's shallow to make arguments around "if money were no object" because money is an object. If it weren't, we wouldn't have a competitive marketplace in which manufacturers continually improve their products.

A new '06 ST w/ABS can be had out the door for under $14,000. The new '06 RT w/ABS I saw at a dealer here in New England was $20,400. Dealer said price was firm.

For a price premium of $6400 -- 45% -- the RT should fly (as in "airplane"). Oh, wait...it's covered with propellers, isn't it?


P.S. I used to tease my buddy with the Road King how many Harley logos were on his bike, then I counted the number of rondels on another buddy's K-bike. They're everywhere. Maybe they accounts for the extra expense?

[sokay]

There's a certain fraternity among all riders. I know I'd stop for the raunchiest chopper if the guy looked like he needed some help. That said, when I encounter an RT or FJR on the road, I know that these folks are my "peer group." They may have more money to buy and maintain their RT or prefer that extra zip that makes the FJR look like a good choice but our tastes and riding experiences still have a lot in common. No angels or maggots here. My 2c.

[naturally wired]

The rt is a nice bike but ....dont say its faster! its quartermile time of 12.02 vs 11.47of the st....plus a 0-60mph of 4.08 rt vs 3.49 st ...plus a top speed of 137.2 rt vs 142.6 for the st.........I would give the rt tops for fit and finish..........I have the money!....and for your $18000 plus options price I now own two bikes...and ones faster then any thing beemer produces (.) ...as far as your buddies go ....well....Ive had the chance to run a 05 rt and for the average rider at first the rt has an edge ....but once you spend time on both the truth comes out ....the st can be pushed harder in the corners ...goes way faster in the straights ....and at top speed is solid, steady,and smooth compared to the rt with its high rpm buzz(a teeth chattering buzz) higher in the seat and lighter weight..........how fast have you taken your bike?.....ever get a 35mph side wind a 130mph? well?....anyway sorry for the flaming, but after spending time on the rt I got off and knew the truth(.):cool:

[nm6r]

I still find it funny that two completely different machines are being compared. The funniest part is that it should be an unfair comparison, quite the contrary. The more likely comparison would be the K1200RS or K1200GT to the ST1300. BTW, there is no comparison.

I've got a question for imeyers...

If BMW is so advanced and so into ergonomics, why are there 3 seperate switches for the turn signals??? :crackup

Ray
http://www.frontiernet.net/~st1300rider/smile04Bikerwheelie.gif

[Jim C-G]

What would we ever do if the only motorcycle availalble in the world was a Honda ST1300 or a BMW R1200RT or the Yamaha FJR1300? Would we consider ourselves blessed - or agrue over the merits of what farkles we were adding? I've been running a 1980 CB750 for the past 15 years (used to me). Before that it was a 1970 BMW R75/5 (again used) with the large touring tank - that was a bike that I really put a lot of miles on and loved dearly. I've never worried about being the fastest - I won't push my new ST1300 to it's limits either. I just want to get out there and ride.
I've been sitting on the ST since it bumped up from the 1100, I've also sat on the RT and the FJR - always loved the looks of the RT, but what felt the best to me was the ST - I've got to travel too far for BMW service, so that and price ruled it out early on. I've gotten quite appreciative of the guys at my local Honda/Yamaha shop - they've kept the CB750 running really well considering it's age.
Since wanting to get back to a shaft drive was a major factor, I even considered the Concours because of price - my wife, bless her, pointed out that the only bike that I consistantly talked about every time I sat on one was the ST - so.... yes the ST1300 will be the best bike I have ever owned. Is it the best bike in the world? It doesn't matter - because always the best bike I've ever rode was the one that I was going down the highway on at that particular point in my life.
Hell, I've even considered buying a Ural - cheap, doesn't matter if it's reliable because it can be fixed and maintained by anyone with some mechanical skills ( which apeals to me in a way) and... I can use it as a tractor in my garden if I want.
Waiting for the snow to go.
Jim in Newfoundland

[Redeye]

I've got a question for imeyers...

If BMW is so advanced and so into ergonomics, why are there 3 seperate switches for the turn signals??? :crackup

Ray
http://www.frontiernet.net/~st1300rider/smile04Bikerwheelie.gif

Design stolen from "Early Learning Centre" :D

http://www.elc.co.uk/page-1?PURL=earlytoys.at/clickagent&P36=3BEFAM&CID=0&CTY=0&LID=elc

[Redeye]

Never ridden an RT1200 so can't compare it with the ST. I can only go on the experience of others, and the experiences I can relate are that a lot of RT1200 riders in the UK are not happy. Just this afternoon I was talking to a couple of IAM (Institute of Advanced Motorcyclist) riders I met whilst riding and they told me that nearly every IAM member in their region who had bought an RT1200 had got rid. Complaints were mainly about low speed handling, reliability and brakes. Now these guys are supposedly the "tops", quite a lot being police Advanced grade (fast!!) riders. So read into that what you may.

[Ken]

I love the hostility. Keep it comming. As far as technology, come on man. Anyone who thinks the RT is not a top notch touring bike is just ignorant. I don't see the hostility, but I'm not the one doing the trolling either. Sorry, but I'll opt for the V4 over the boxer ANY day. Apparently you are unable to admit that the 1/4 mile times and the inferior boxer motor and brakes are BMW weaknesses since you have artfully dodged those points on your posts. While it's true that both bikes have their strengths, for the price of that RT it should come out ahead in every category, and it does not.

[kingprawnokay]

Redeye,

The same is true here in the US. My dealership also sells Beemers, and I have had many conversations with owners of new 1200 and old 1150RT's. 90%+ of the riders with which I've conversed complained of significant quality issues unsolicited (I didn't ask how unreliable the bike was, they just told me throughout the course of normal conversation).

Although the new RT is a pretty bike (that was obviously styled in an effort to imitate the ST; see picture below), the biggest difference is that, despite the superior/cutting edge technology, Beemers just simply aren't as reliable. I don't believe that the new Beemers will be on the road in 20 years. I think many ST's will still be running well.

There's no reason to discuss performance, as the results of my own subjective road testing has already come back in favor of the ST.

No hostility here, imeyers, although I can tell you're fishing for it.

[ROBERT MCCLAIN]

I put 75,000 miles on a 1991 ST1100 and loved every minute of it, so smooth and sublime. The engine ran the same every time I rode it regardless of the weather. I had heard good things about the RT and test rode several of them. Finally I traded for a 2002 R1150RT and started missing my ST immediately. The RT handled better and stopped much better. The RT had better ergonomics and was very forgiving on dirt roads and potential misshaps with its light weight and wider handlebars. But it surged at 3,000 RPM and the FI was always noticeably trying to adjust to engine temp and air temp, etc. I always wondered how much better the RT would be if Honda could get their hands on it. The RT had wonderful innovations but lacked the perfection of the Honda. Dealerships that sell both BMWs and Hondas will tell you that the BMW requires much more scheduled maintenance than the Honda and breaks down more often too. I put 55,000 miles on the RT and just traded for a 2005 ST and I'm enjoying the bike at least as much as I did the ST1100. The V-4 motor is like a turbine. I rode an FJ in the mountains of Arkansas a couple years ago and found it did not handle as easily as the Honda or the BMW. They are all three great bikes and I love riding with other sport-touring riders no matter what they are on. That's our niche, isn't it?

Bob

[kingprawnokay]

imeyers,

I think I can safely say that nobody here paid $15K for their ST with ABS. Read some of the posts about out the door costs for an '06 ST with ABS. You'll truly be surprised.

[CrashTestDanny]

I am a proud owner of a 2005 R1200RT... Remember everything is power to weight ratio when talking about horsepower.
...
The ST is 727 lbs. with 114.1hp= 6.37lbs. per hp.
The FJR is 641 lbs. with 126.8hp= 5.06lbs. per hp.
The RT is 570 lbs. with 104.4hp= 5.46lbs. per hp.
...
As you can see the RT has more power to weight than the ST. The FJR edges it out a little in the HP dept.

I'm surprised my brethren have not shoved this back at you yet, but since they appear to have missed it, I guess it falls to me to point out that you seem to have mis-quoted the weight of the ST. The 2005 ABS model weighs in at 637 pounds; a full 90 pounds lighter than you have quoted. Perhaps the magazine that did this work forgot about all the stuff they left in the ST's saddlebags when they went to weigh it. Your power to weight ratio advantage seems to have evaporated just by using the correct numbers! :eek:

Of course, as someone else pointed out, if you add the weight of a rider and possibly a pillion, the scenario changes even more. At 300 pounds, I find the ST gives me much better performance than the RT that I test-rode. And since the only BMW motorcycle dealer local to the St. Louis area has gone out of business, I'm very happy that I purchased the Honda which can be serviced by any one of 4 dealerships in a 20 mile radius from where I bought it and 15 dealerships within a 100 mile radius. Too bad I haven't really needed any dealership support since I bought it. :D

[Bones]

Imeyers, I had to chuckle at the title of your first post, which was Don't Discount (my bold) the RT. The difference in out-the-door cost is greater than the $2500 you cite, at least in my part of the world, and total cost of ownership will widen that margin since BMW maintenance is both more costly and more frequent than with Honda.

If you feel the price premium you paid was worth it for you, then great. What need is there to justify it to others?

Many of us, myself included, simply prefer the ST. If the magazine editors are right, the 1200 boxer is an improvement over the 1150. That said, I don't think one can make a cogent argument that an opposed twin will ever win a smoothness contest with a V4 of the same displacement. For me, the supreme joy of the ST comes in its seamless power delivery. Some motojournalists complain about the ST because it's so smooth, and say it lacks character. I would argue that smoothness defines the ST's character and that no other bike in the Sport Touring segment matches it.

As far as mechanical breakdowns, none of my ST or BMW buddies has experienced anything other than a flat tire when I've been riding with them. Neither have my friends with a Connie, V11 LeMans, 900 Super Sport, Road King, Nomad, Katana, Shadow ACE, VTX1800, SV1000S, or KZ1300. In 20+ years of riding street Hondas I have never experienced a mechanical breakdown.

One place where the mechanical reliability of BMW's and ST's has been recently observed was the Iron Butt rally where all ST's that started finished (including the winner) and a mechanical failure cost a BMW rider the victory. Your mileage may vary.

Bottom line: "motor" is the first part of "motorcycle" and BMW's boxer motor doesn't do it for me.

Enjoy your ride. Kindly be open-minded enough to allow others to do the same, particularly when you're in our community.

[sherob]

$17,500... WOW! That's over $4k more than I paid for my 05... I won't go into maintenance since I've only dropped $118 for my 600 checkup and $75 for new rear shoes, could have done that myself but they were doing new tires at the time. So less than $200 in 11k isn't to shabby... I do all the maintenance myself.

We ride... we ride what we choose... your Beemer does it for you... my :biker: does it for me :D Just ride... :cool:

[sherob]

Read this... the Testers Log... it still has EFI issues they didn't like, and they don't like the brakes.

http://www.mcnews.com/mcn/model_eval/JuneBmwR1200RT2.pdf

What floats your boat may not float mine... again, ride what you like, I'll ride what I like.

If you need cheering on for what you purchased visit a Beemer board... they'll make you feel good about your purchase. If I can get a bike that does everything "phenominal" at a great price... that doesn't eat me alive in maintenance costs... is very dependable... why would I give away my money so I could say I own a, hmmm, BMW? It is a nice bike... phenominal... not for me ;) Now the K1200GT might get my blood going :cool:

[Ken]

The 1200RT is a gorgeous, technically advanced bike. And yes, the adjective phenomenal could even be used to describe it. I'm sure its owners are as steadfast in their praise of it as we are of the ST. But after your post likening the ST to a car with no character or soul, please don't expect st-owners.com members to bow to the RT or your posts. The obvious trolling attempts smashed your credibility from the getgo.

[sherob]

The 1200RT is a gorgeous, technically advanced bike. And yes, the adjective phenomenal could even be used to describe it. I'm sure its owners are as steadfast in their praise of it as we are of the ST. But after your post likening the ST to a car with no spirit or soul, please don't expect st-owners.com members to bow to the RT or your posts. The obvious trolling attempts smashed your credibility from the getgo.

Plus One :)

[kingprawnokay]

"Bashing something more expensive is an easy way to make one feel better about not being able to afford the price of admission. Just remeber the guy who buys a Bentley or a Ferrari rarely asks or is rarely concerned about the cost of maintenance. If he was, he would buy a Honda."

It's a shame that you're so upset, but it's not surprising that you haven't been able to convince us of the Beemer's superiority. Considering your choice of words in previous posts, its a wonder anyone (including myself) is still responding. Why am I?

Oh,yeah, many of us had the means to purchase a BMW but chose to purchase the ST. Neither bike breaks the bank. Some people here own 'Wings and they can cost more than the Beemer. Moreover, neither bike could ever be compared to a Bentley or Ferrari. That was kind of a silly statement.

You've made a poor first impression, but you still have the opportunity to turn it around in future posts. Please, breathe, think about your audience, write yourself an outline, take medication, etc. before you write your next post.

[Bones]

imeyers:

Agree to disagree? That's not the same as conceding the position of the person on the other side of the discussion. It's saying, "You know, I do not think you are correct but I am civil enough to concede your right to your opinion." To make it work, the parties involved must agree to disagree, agreeably.

To wit: I acknowledge your preference for an RT. I do not agree that it is a superior machine to the ST. In my opinion, BMW motorcycles continue their long tradition of being admired by a relatively few aficianados of the marque.

BMWs are notable for unconventional engineering. Some motorcyclists intepret this as "innovative" and others as "odd." I believe that the penchant for differentness has in great measure resulted in machines that are the most costly in their market segment, though not superior.

BMWs are an acquired taste that not everyone shares. There are many acquired tastes: does not liking lobster mean your opinions of seafood are not valid, or not liking live theatre mean your opinions of entertainment are not valid?

Your "price of admission" contention is based on the assumption that not choosing to buy the most costly product from among a range of competitors equates to not being able to pay for the most costly one. Illogical, elitist, arrogant, silly...pick an adjective.

Recall that the reason for this post was to point out that 2 out of 3 motojournalists had picked an '05 ST (essentially unchanged since its introduction in 2002) first overall in a head-to-head-to-head with an '05 RT and an '05 FJR. Going back through my magazines with ST comparison tests (going back to the ST1100 vs RT1150), I do not find a test where the RT came out first overall. US mags seem to prefer the FJR, the English mags seem to prefer the ST, and no RT finished above 2nd.

You are free to disagree with members of this forum, the motojournalists from Cycle Canada and other publications, and with me.

I hope you enjoy your RT as much as I enjoy my ST.

Rubber side down.

[nm6r]

The RT has always been regarded by the motorcycling community and journalists as the top sport-touring bike in the world.

Where did you come up with that load of crap? Obviously, you forgot about the ST1100. You know, the ST1100 that set the standard in sport touring for something like 11 years straight.

All in all, I must thank Mr. imeyers for giving us something to have some fun with on the forum. Since we don't have to spend much time with maintenance, even less time with repairs and there are only so many farkles on any given motorcycle, this nonsensical banter has given us some entertainment and a higher appreciation for our ST's that we already knew were phenomenal in every aspect.

Ray
http://www.frontiernet.net/~st1300rider/smile04Bikerwheelie.gif

[naturally wired]

I drove my bosses 05 rt1200(freeway,twisties,and city) ..and like I said before....the st beats the" rt1200"...0 to 60 and quarter mile ....and its not as light as you think with the bags on its alot closer then you think.....your bike is as buzzy as hell unless your at just the right med rpm level..........if you had one of the new beemers with the new four cylinder engines I would find the thread high jacking more intresting....but I guess all we can do is keep flaming the troll............hay I just thought of the best thing about guys like you...........the look on your face when I blow by you like your standing still... .................:D :D :D :D :D :( :D :D :D :D :D thats you in the middle.........

[ROBERT MCCLAIN]

imeyers,

You asked how much trouble I had with my R1150RT in the 55,00 miles. The bike developed a hypoid gear lube leak at the seal between the transmission and drive shaft at 54K. It had seeped a little for a while before that, but not enough to require adding lube. When it leaked enough to puddle on the garage floor I noticed it had slung up on my rear tire on my last trip a few days before. I found I had to use locktite on the front fender bolts from day one to keep from losing them. The battery was not a sealed or gel cell type such as came on my Honda ST1100, and I had to remove all of the plastic on the left side and remove the battery in order to check its fluid level. The material was not clear enough to see the water / acid level when on the bike. I hope the 2006 RT comes with a sealed battery. My RT also developed a pre-ignition knock when accelerating, especially under load with luggage or on an incline after about 30,000 miles. I had the bike in for a tune-up, but the problem was ever present, regardless of the octane or brand of gas. No other problems with the bike, and like I said, it saved my butt on a couple of ocassions when most any other bike would have had me on the ground. I think the RT is the safest bike on the road with its superb brakes. I'm glad to have owned the RT.

Bob

[whaler]

My point was that most of the 'measurable' elements between the RT and ST were pretty even. Give or take between this and that. Except things that are subjective..."soul" character, vibration/smoothness etc...

Then there was my main point... price..All performance figures being that close and then BMW tags the RT at 3- 5 grand more..

Then you're only comeback was..I'll pay that for the 'exclusivity' of the BMW..A weak argument in my opinion and a way for you to justify the purchase and 'why' it was so expensive.

You know, I don't buy the "exclusive" argument either. I think it's silly. The most expensive BMW bike on the floor is less expensive than a new Volkswagen Passat, and about $15K less than our zero-status pickup truck...BMW bikes are not "exclusive".

I'm one of those guys who really loves the new BMW RT. It fits me well, and there are a number of other features I prefer over the ST, but I recognize, as many BMW owners do, that the Honda is superior in many respects. Yes, it's heavy. But it has plenty of smooth power, the service intervals are much longer, and reliability is unmatched, and resale is strong. There really isn't any bad news on the Honda.

When I rode my first boxer I was surprised by the "clunky" transmission and the vibration of the motor. It's really not a smooth motor, it's a thumpy one. Interestingly, the vibration does smooth-out at speed, and it's not the sort of bothersome vibration that gets old. It sounds odd, but it's the sort of vibration that feels good - like a Tennessee walking horse.

I love the RT because of the ergonomics and the way it handles and brakes. Prior to this year, I thought they were also very pretty. On the other hand, I appreciate the fact that the ST is 35% less money up front - and MUCH less money over time.

I think bikes are like shoes. You gotta try'em out and see what works for you...but it doesn't make much sense to try to persuade others that your shoes are better... Heck, the world is FULL of Harley lovers, and I have never had ANY interest in owning one of them. Not even a little. Ever. :D

[Pred8tor]

I think bikes are like shoes. You gotta try'em out and see what works for you...but it doesn't make much sense to try to persuade others that your shoes are better... Heck, the world is FULL of Harley lovers, and I have never had ANY interest in owning one of them. Not even a little. Ever. :D

Now that's a statement I can agree with - we all have our favorites for whatever reason. Let's respect that and not try to get others to dump theirs for ours! Especially by coming on to a ST forum to try to convert folks - that's just not right.

[kingprawnokay]

Very nice post, Whaler. You have presented appreciation for the RT in an enthusiastic, yet non-judgemental, neutral manner. Every bike has its strengths and weaknesses.

Without differences of opinion, the world would be a very boring place.

[beemerman2k]

I've had my 2000 RT since new, and it now has 85K miles on it and it runs better than new. At 70K miles, however, the input shaft went and left me stranded by the side of the highway. I guess my only point is this: the BMW motorcycle is not as reliable as it should be, but it is not as unreliable as it is often painted as being.

I actually tried to buy an ST1100 back in the summer of 2000, but no Honda dealers near me had one in stock. I found one in New Jersey (I lived in Boston, MA at the time), but I didn't want to fly down there to buy one. None of the local dealers stocked one.

You won't get a bad word toward the ST out of me, I've always loved that bike. In fact, if my RT died today (there are probably some on this forum who expect it to die today!) I would likely purchase a ST1300, which is why I registered on this forum. I look forward to learning more about the bike to see if it's what I would really enjoy riding.

I am absolutely NOT going to compare my beloved RT against a beloved ST. I love both bikes. I guess I just want to say that my BMW has been stellar! Maybe when I get an ST I'll conclude that it is more stellar, I don't know. But my RT has been absolutely stellar as far as I'm concerned.

I must admit to chuckling at the "tractor" analogies -- to each his own I guess. I think my engine is smooth, but then the bike I had prior to my RT (1978 Suzuki GS1000) vibrated quite a bit more. The vibes don't bother me a bit. I test rode and loved the new 2005 RT -- a completely different animal from the previous generation RT's. I wouldn't compare that bike with a tractor, but that's me. I have never ridden an ST, but on paper it seems like a bike that I would love. Someday, I'll see I suppose. In fact, it was the ST that gave me a love for this type of motorcycle in the first place. Not the bulk of the 'Wing, yet pretty much the same level of protection and comfort.

[sherob]

I like to say thanks to Whaler and beemerman2k... the 2 of you are pretty refreshing compared to imeyers... go into somebodys house and start trashing it. :eek: I know you wouldn't appreciate it if the table was turned. ;)

As most of us have said all along... Ride what you like, just ride. The one bias you'll find here is the desire to ride, not what you ride... unless you start talking trash :D

Take care guys and ride safe!

[sokay]

Hey, I love the BMW's! My brother rides a BMW! (Course, he keeps talking about buying an ST1300 but that doesn't mean anything) I stop by the BMW shop now and then just to look at them. Really. Only thing I don't do is BUY BMW's. I mean, I wouldn't be here if I did. :)

[Littlejohn64]

Blue BMW's are best.......LOL!!!!!:04biker:

[Big Al]

I'm fairly new to motorcycles. I'm also fairly new to forums. I don't have an engineering background in automotive mechanics either. Coming from that perspective, It's interesting to see the passion, behind what drives this discussion. It's not unlike the past cold war between the US and Russia where passions ran deep all the way down to the individual. Like each country, each manufacturer has it's own philosophy. It's own way of making it's mark on the world.
Today the two world powers are allies because two people once sat down together and listened to each other as friends would do. Suddenly they realized each had a lot in common and cared for the same things in life as an individual.
BMW, FJR, ST - It doesn't matter. We own them because we love to ride. - I always believed that the (ST) in www.ST-Owners.com (http://www.ST-Owners.com) stood for all Sport-Touring owners. I think we should all remember our roots and that enough has been said. - Let's all kiss and make up ;)

PS.. Besides, I think we should be discussing which color is faster instead. :06biker: :04biker: :03biker: ~~~~:biker:

[naturally wired]

imeyers is still a troll :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Medicine Bear]

I understand the ST1300 2007 model has a rain sensor so you don't even have to turn them on...

Beemerman, check Leo's tongue and you'll periodically find it planted firmly in his cheek.

Fred :03biker:

[Bones]

PS.. Besides, I think we should be discussing which color is faster instead. :06biker: :04biker: :biker: ~~~~~ :03biker:

The order was wrong, Al...I fixed it for you. ;)

[Medicine Bear]

Personally, I think the cold makes their teeth hurt. I did look at the Beemer board and to me it looked like "our" flamer was not getting a lot of support. I also read the link on their board to the Bama rider's comparison of the two bikes (ST and RT). It was as expected, subjective, as it should have been. And the guy that wrote it was pretty right on in what he had to say - my subjective opinion, of course.

I guess it will always boil down to "ride what you like as long as you ride". :clap2:

I like it like that. :)

Fred :03biker:

[EdsST]

I think its funny - he went over there looking for support and they basically told him to shut and go away - that it is not cool to start flaming wars. From the little I read (only read the ST vs RT thread) they seem like a bunch of level headed riders (just like us) and don't go for imeyers follies (no more then we do)

By the way I would like to read the original article - anyone able to post it?

[Towjam]

All I can tell anyone who owns a FJR or an ST is do not test drive an R1200RT. Once you do you will not want to go back. It is that Good!!!I'll do you one better. I owned an '06 R1200RT and am swapping it for the ST. The RT is definitely a sweet handling bike Iin my opinion) but for reasons - many of which have already been posted in this thread, I'm jumping back into the Honda family and by the end of the week, will be off my RT and on an '06 STa.

I'm a noob to this board so I guess just file this under "for what it's worth".

Let's Ride! :06biker:

[BEJ]

Howdy to one and all,
I just registered on the board after reading imeyer's post on the BMWST board. I didn't register to join in the bashing. I'm genuinely interested in the ST. I was out of riding from 1981 until 2002 when I got an '02 R1150RT. I loved riding the RT, but my wife was in pain after 45 minutes on the bike. In late '03 I took my wife for a long test ride on a K1200LT. Good bye RT, and hello LT. I really don't like the high seat height, weight (840 lbs. wet), and top heaviness of the LT (I can barely flat foot it). In June '05 I bought a low mileage used '04 1150RT as a solo bike. Well, I've come to the conclusion that I really don't like having to insure and maintain two touring bikes. I'm trying to find a bike my wife can be comfortable on for long rides, but one that is still light enough and quick enough for me to have some fun on when riding alone. We tried a 1200RT, and the back seat would never do for long rides for her. I hate to experiment with $700 aftermarket seats trying to make it comfortable enough.

I don't think I want to go to a Gold Wing yet, although the seat height and center of gravity are low enough, and I'm sure the passenger comfort would be equal to the LT. Right now I see my two best choices as being a new BMW K1200GT which hasn't been released to the dealers yet, or an ST. I kind of like the idea of the lower weight of the GT, as well as some of the options you can get on it. On the other hand, the ST is close to $4000 less MSRP, and the available extended factory warranty is a nice feature. I have a lot of questions I'd like answered about the ST, but I'll try to get them answered by searching the archives before I bother you with questions. I just wanted to say HI, and start to search for information on the ST.

Burt Jones

[Medicine Bear]

Hi Burt,

Welcome to the forum. I think you'll find ST riders here that have or owned many models of the BMW and many that had or own Gold Wings.

I was in the market for an LT until I drove it. Just too heavy and didn't seem to want to turn. I started looking in the sport touring category and found the ST1300 was the right bike for me. My wife likes riding behind me as long as I have the top box installed. Unfortunately, she had the opportunity to sit on the back seat of a Wing and now she knows the difference. The only saving grace is we can't afford two bikes or we'd have a GL1800 in the driveway!

I sat on the same Wing as she did and have to admit the ergos are superior to the ST IMHO. Maybe some day...

Having said that, the ST1300 is just about the most fun I've ever had on two wheels. I've had to add some "comfort" features like a handlebar riser and a new seat (on order) but even stock, it will have me cruising around with a big silly grin plastered on my face.

Hope you enjoy your time here - looks like you're off to a good start.

Fred :03biker:

[BC Rider]

Howdy to one and all,
Burt Jones:
I'm trying to find a bike my wife can be comfortable on for long rides, but one that is still light enough and quick enough for me to have some fun on when riding alone.
Medicine Bear: My wife likes riding behind me as long as I have the top box installed. Unfortunately, she had the opportunity to sit on the back seat of a Wing and now she knows the difference.


This really depends on the lady Burt. My wife got used to the old GL1200 and as far as she is concerned that is what she wants. She does not care for the ST1300. Technology be dammed. ;) I don't really blame her - her idea of a ride is sighseeing in comfort and it is pretty tough to beat a big tourer for comfort, even an old one.

On the other extreme, I chased a German couple in the Kootenays riding an 1150GS and carrying enough gear for a world tour - which in fact was what they were up to. Anyway, the girlfriend was pretty happy on that and appeared to be prepared to finish the trip. I don't think I would have been. Mind you she was apparently used to riding on the back of a Zundap or DKW or....you get my drift.

Best of luck to you, but you might have spoiled her with the LT.

[BEJ]

Best of luck to you, but you might have spoiled her with the LT.
Thanks Medicine Bear and BC Rider,

Our local dealer told me not to take my wife for a ride on the LT unless I was sure I wanted to buy it. He was right. The LT really is a great bike. I just have a problem with its weight, height, and low speed handling. The '05 and '06 handle better at low speeds, but they are just as heavy and tall as mine. If I can't find a good compromise I will just keep the LT or try a Gold Wing. I've been looking at the new Gold Wing, and they have some really nice options for '06. Its more important to me to have a bike that is comfortable for my wife than it is to have one that is sportier. I'd like to have both features in one bike if possible. We have been taking some nice trips with friends, and I would hate for that to end because I got a bike that was uncomfortable for her.

Thanks again,

Burt

[nm6r]

Burt, I would definitely wait until I could try the new K1200GT. Then you can compare it to the ST1300. IMO, the ST is quite a bit better than the old K1200GT in many ways. If you're going to keep only one bike, make sure your wife is involved in the process. She might just be spoiled from the K1200LT and not like the sport tourers.

We always ride 2-up. We got back into riding in late 1998 with a new 1999 GoldWing. It was missing the fun factor and was way too impersonal. We upgraded to a 1999 ST1100. I was an improvement over the GW in every aspect. Our ST1300 is in improvement in every aspect all over again.

Ray
http://www.frontiernet.net/~st1300rider/smile04Bikerwheelie.gif

[BEJ]

Burt, I would definitely wait until I could try the new K1200GT. Then you can compare it to the ST1300. IMO, the ST is quite a bit better than the old K1200GT in many ways. If you're going to keep only one bike, make sure your wife is involved in the process. She might just be spoiled from the K1200LT and not like the sport tourers.

My wife will definitely be going with me on any test rides of bikes I might buy. If she isn't comfortable on a bike, we won't be buying it. If one is reasonably close in comfort I wouldn't be against getting a Russell or Mayer saddle for it to make it better. The new GT won't be available until May from what I've been told. I hope to test ride a Gold Wing and an ST well before that.

Burt

[BEJ]

I agree completely. The top case gives her a much more secure feeling. The GL won't be a problem with the back rest. The new GT will use the same top case as the new RT, and I'm hoping to be able to test ride a GT with a top case on it. The ST might be a bit more difficult to find. One of our local Honda dealers just sold a used silver ST with a Givi on it. If I can find another used one at a dealer with a top case this spring I will try to test ride it before it is sold.

Burt

[John Ephlin]

I want you to know I am an old guy (78) have been riding sernce 1947 I have riden so many bikes that I can't rember. My last 3 were R1100RT 1999, R1100RT 2001 and R1150RT 2003. I rode the new R1200RT Just prior to riding the 05 ST1300. In my opinion the ST1300 is twice the bike at two thirds the price.:bow1: :D :06biker: :03biker: :04biker: :biker:

John Ephlin
ST1300 (05)
F650GS (03)

[Big Al]

I want you to know I am an old guy (78) have been riding sernce 1947 I have riden so many bikes that I can't rember. My last 3 were R1100RT 1999, R1100RT 2001 and R1150RT 2003. I rode the new R1200RT Just prior to riding the 05 ST1300. In my opinion the ST1300 is twice the bike at two thirds the price.:bow1: :D :06biker: :03biker: :04biker: :biker:

John Ephlin
ST1300 (05)
F650GS (03)Hi John - Wecome aboard.
It's good to see that you've fixed Bones' mistake and put the colors back to the correct order.
:06biker: :03biker: :04biker: ~~~~:biker:

[nm6r]

Just because it's blue doesn't make it fast...

http://photos1.blogger.com/hello/56/9454/1024/IMG_9191.jpg


Ray
http://www.frontiernet.net/~st1300rider/smile04Bikerwheelie.gif

[Big Al]

I love the ST because of it's character more than anything else. I felt this bike would suit my idea of what would be fun to ride FOR ME!
Cost simply meant that I'll wait a few more years to get the bike I want rather than settle for a Concorse.
I have lots of friends who ride cruisers and HD's. They were the reason I bought my bike. So I can ride with friends. To their surprise I bought the ST1300 instead of the VTX1800 or the HD Softail Heritige. They ride HD's because they like the characteristics of a bike with lots of crome and loud pipes as well as the feel of the V-Twin.
All of them were impressed with the ST for the bike that it is. (especially after I showed them the windshield trick), It just was'nt their preference. Sure I've heard all the jokes such as, "I'll take crome over plastic anyday." or when we start the bikes up together, "Is that thing even on?"
But, I like to teese them back by saying . . "You guys drive like old ladies in the twisties" . . and . . "Look how much bigger the gathering crowds seems get towards my plastic windshield over of all that crome on your bikes".

We poke fun at each other, and the charateristics of our bikes, because we're friends. Friends who love to ride. Whatever it is we're riding. Poking fun is only resereved between friends. As for my friends, I don't have to have loud pipes and lots of chrome to fit into their club. I'm not a member here because I feel the need to belong to something better than the next guy. I choose to be a member of this site because I enjoy my STeed and wish to share that with others and learn a few things. - Maybe I'll make some new friends along the way.

Mr imeyers doesn't see things the same way. Maybe he feels he's in a class above the rest of us. Too bad for him though because it looks like Mr. imeyers doesn't have many friends on the site he frequents (http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/635127/page/0/fpart/2/vc/1) either, and could use a little more practice in making them. Maybe they see right through his character.

To imeyers, all I have to say is - Guess What? Most people here and on www.bmwsporttouring.com (http://www.bmwsporttouring.com) don't care about who's bike is better than who's.

(It's all about CHARACTER!)

[clmixon]

I want you to know I am an old guy (78) have been riding sernce 1947 I have riden so many bikes that I can't rember. My last 3 were R1100RT 1999, R1100RT 2001 and R1150RT 2003. I rode the new R1200RT Just prior to riding the 05 ST1300. In my opinion the ST1300 is twice the bike at two thirds the price.:bow1: :D :06biker: :03biker: :04biker: :biker:

John Ephlin
ST1300 (05)
F650GS (03)

Hey, John!

Did you do the rider age Poll? I think you are in the running for the master class right now!

JR, You may have to start hanging out in the middle of the age curve with us young farts ;)

Chris :04biker:

Welcome to the board

[rbs]

I for one left the Honda world a few years back and bought a R1150RT and have really enjoyed the bike, but really miss the smoothness of the Honda. Wanting to stay with sport touring type bikes I compared the FJR (an impressive bike) with the ST and for my type of riding (long distance riding) I went with the ST.

2002 R1150RT with 37,000 + miles now for sale!

bOB sTAFFORD

[wrestleantares]

Hey, aren't there at least some things we can agree on?

I can think of at least one thing on which we have common

The latest iterations of the ST and RT both got beaten a bit with the ugly stick.
I always thought the 11XX RT's had a nice clean design. Same for the ST1100. The new bikes not so much.

ST1300 - From the rear it looks like some sort of grotesquely deformed Pacific Coast (which was not bad looking in and of itself). And the triangular pipes - ***?

1200RT - It takes less time to say what looks good than to go into everything that looks crappy.

Bags on both are misdesigned IMO as well. BMW should have stuck with the old design (why integrate everything - the old ones were great), and ST1300's look good on the bike (from the side), but they would be better off as just a straight square/rectangle for packing.

[Ken]

No doubt we have mutual agreements. IMO, compared to many of the new syles coming out, I think these bikes are gorgeous. The others look like someone rode a magnet through a junkyard.

As for the triangular pipes, I always though they were neat, unique, and definitely increase lean angle ability.

[naturally wired]

I hear the sound of more trolls on there way in:cus: .......a couple of the new beemer boys seem ok , but whats up with " some sort of grostesquely deformed pacific coast" TROLL CITY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[wrestleantares]

I hear the sound of more trolls on there way in:cus: .......a couple of the new beemer boys seem ok , but whats up with " some sort of grostesquely deformed pacific coast" TROLL CITY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Actually I thought it was quite clear that I think the ST1300 looks better than the 1200RT. You may have noticed I said that it was easier to say what looked good about the RT than to go into the litany of what looked bad. Then I remained silent - there is nothing that looks particularly good about the RT (IMO).

Yeah, I do think Honda screwed up the rear of the ST1300 - so what. Given the choice I would take the ST1300 over the RT.

My last Honda was a CB750C that I put 224,000 miles on. I looked at the ST and RT, but found both lacking what I wanted. I ended up with a KRS, the Blackbird just did not float my boat, and the ST and RT were BOATS! They were just more than what I wanted from a bike. The old ST1100 was actually my biggest competitor in choosing my bike (wife hated the ergonomics of the Blackbird), I wish Honda had done a little less is more design on the ST1300.

But that's personal preference.

Sorry if I offended your delicate sensibilities cracking on the ST. I thought it was clear that it was well-intended, and no more a crack at the ST than it was at the RT.

[Bones]

beaten a bit with the ugly stick

I think the winner in the Ugly Stick competition is the R1200ST. :eek: What were they thinking? :confused: Oh well, to each his own. :03biker:

[wrestleantares]

No doubt we have mutual agreements. IMO, compared to many of the new syles coming out, I think these bikes are gorgeous. The others look like someone rode a magnet through a junkyard.

As for the triangular pipes, I always though they were neat, unique, and definitely increase lean angle ability.

It's certainly a matter of personal aesthetics. I guess I just like the less integrated body work. Maybe its the mechanic in me.

[Pred8tor]

It's certainly a matter of personal aesthetics. I guess I just like the less integrated body work. Maybe its the mechanic in me.

This is the key here - it's a personal thing. We ST owners generally like the looks, perfomance, and most ergonomics of the ST better than most other bikes. So, when you indicate that you DON'T like certain aspects of ST styling, we're kind of quick to defend the style we like. You opinion is still valid, and it's okay for you to say. But don't expect a lot of agreement here.

We have the fact that we're riders in common - and the large majority here are also ST owners, so that's in common. Most of the non-ST owners would like to own one some day. We all enjoy our bikes and each other. Folks who don't like the ST tend to gravitate to other sites where their particular bike style is more popular.

So while we understand the ST is not for everyone, we have chosen it because we like (or love) it ourselves. People who feel otherwise tend to catch flack from us here when expressing their dislike of the ST. We accept all riders for who they are - but a big part of this site is the ST. So understand it's like criticizing family members - it's okay for us, but if anyone else does it....

[Blrfl]

And the triangular pipes - ***?

As the Germans are so fond of saying, form follows function. See attached.

--Mark

[wrestleantares]

This is the key here - it's a personal thing. We ST owners generally like the looks, perfomance, and most ergonomics of the ST better than most other bikes. So, when you indicate that you DON'T like certain aspects of ST styling, we're kind of quick to defend the style we like. You opinion is still valid, and it's okay for you to say. But don't expect a lot of agreement here.

We have the fact that we're riders in common - and the large majority here are also ST owners, so that's in common. Most of the non-ST owners would like to own one some day. We all enjoy our bikes and each other. Folks who don't like the ST tend to gravitate to other sites where their particular bike style is more popular.

So while we understand the ST is not for everyone, we have chosen it because we like (or love) it ourselves. People who feel otherwise tend to catch flack from us here when expressing their dislike of the ST. We accept all riders for who they are - but a big part of this site is the ST. So understand it's like criticizing family members - it's okay for us, but if anyone else does it....


I'll back out gracefully through the door I entered. My post was not accepted with the humor I thought was inherent in it. But I can see your reasoning. I seriously thought of it as a humorous peace branch, not a stick to poke at you guys.

Anyhoo, it was still great to find this board. On the MC boards I'm a part of I like to lurk and read the ride reports. I cannot tell you how many great rides I have discovered because of boards like this, and yall's ride reports will be a welcome addition to the others I check out regularly.

[wrestleantares]

As the Germans are so fond of saying, form follows function. See attached.

--Mark

Quick note as I leave...

You're right, and it is a great design (still looks freaky). I had not thought of that aspect, as my sport-tourer gets around the problem by just lopping off half the space of the left bag (K12RS). The Honda design, despite its peculair look is a great design for an ST bike.

Pretty cool.

[Bones]

Quick note as I leave...

You're right, and it is a great design (still looks freaky). I had not thought of that aspect, as my sport-tourer gets around the problem by just lopping off half the space of the left bag (K12RS). The Honda design, despite its peculair look is a great design for an ST bike.

Pretty cool.

BMW does offer a lowering kit to address the height of the pipe. A friend with an 1150 Roadster lowered his and had his dealer find a full size bag from a wreck. Can't tell you if he drags because he always rides sweep!

[Pred8tor]

I'll back out gracefully through the door I entered. My post was not accepted with the humor I thought was inherent in it.

Humor is kind of hard to get in text, sometimes. The written word has a strong tendency to come across in a much different manner than intended. Smilies help, but still it's misunderstood sometimes.

You don't have to leave - I'm sure you have a lot to contribute regarding motorcycling - even if you have a different ride than most of us. We all ride - and that's most important. We're not elitists here - just fond of our bikes!

[Horst]

hey, don't leave !

you're old enough enough to be our 'dad' and I think that's really cool :)

stay awhile, get to know these goofballs ... this really is a good board.

funny thing, Bones .... I actually rode the R1200ST and thought not only does it ride / handle exceptionally well ... I thought it looked good too !

so it goes ... man the PMS is bad ... soon, very soon ... RIDE !!! :D

[Bones]

funny thing, Bones .... I actually rode the R1200ST and thought not only does it ride / handle exceptionally well ... I thought it looked good too !

Face only a mother could love (not you, Horst...the Beemer! :D ).

As this thread has aptly expressed, whatever floats your boat!

Two wheels, good.

[nm6r]

ST1300 - From the rear it looks like some sort of grotesquely deformed Pacific Coast (which was not bad looking in and of itself). And the triangular pipes - ***?

Bags on both are misdesigned IMO as well. BMW should have stuck with the old design (why integrate everything - the old ones were great), and ST1300's look good on the bike (from the side), but they would be better off as just a straight square/rectangle for packing.

The taillight on the ST1300 was almost a dealbreaker for me. It has since grown on me. Either that or I just tolerate it since I like the rest of the bike so much. It is unique.

I had the same *** with the triangular pipes. I'm not sure what was worse, the shape or the sound. Staintunes fixed both problems. BTW, the shape actually doesn't help the lean angle. I have touched the tip over wing in a turn and didn't touch the Staintunes. The triangular shaped pipes seem to be Honda's way of looking different since they are putting them on many models.

I think the bags look really good, especially on the bike. The bike is missing something without them. I believe they have the same capacity of the ST1100, however, I think I was able to pack more in the ST1100 bags due to their more rectangular shape.

The ST1300 is missing electronic cruise control and perhaps self cancelling turn signals. The electronic cruise control is easily added affordably. The manually cancelled turn signals are easy enough to get used to.

Since the perfect bike will probably never exist, I can't complain (too bad) about the funky taillight. That's pretty darn close to perfection for me for a production machine.

Ray
http://www.frontiernet.net/~st1300rider/smile04Bikerwheelie.gif

[tricky_micky]

Quick note as I leave...

You're right, and it is a great design (still looks freaky). I had not thought of that aspect, as my sport-tourer gets around the problem by just lopping off half the space of the left bag (K12RS). The Honda design, despite its peculair look is a great design for an ST bike.

Pretty cool.

Dont leave the forum or get upset about some of the posts. No one means any untowards to you, they are just having some fun, and I know for a fact, that if someone has posted something that may have offended you, they will probably be more upset about it than you.

Stay in there, I was a little concerned when I made my first posts on the forum, particularly with me being in the UK and at least 5,000 miles away from anyone apart from the few other guys that post on the forum from the UK.

You may not think it, but you may have some valuable information whereby you could really help someone out of a sticky mess, believe me, I for one have found that to be true.

I am not technically minded, so I learn from these guys, but once you start talking about motorcyclcle training techniques, that is my field and I will take the bull by the horns and post on the forum as much information as I can.

Other than that, I read a lot and learn a lot. It really is worth staying, you WILL find some field on the forum that you have a great knowledge about, so stay and share it with us.

Mick

[kingprawnokay]

Here's a couple more uses for the 1200 boxer motor.

IMO, Beemer styling is getting weirder by the minute.

[sherob]

Here's a couple more uses for the 1200 boxer motor.

IMO, Beemer styling is getting weirder by the minute.

Looks no more wierd to me than Moto Guzzi's stuff ;)

[B11RGER]

most of the images were from my R1150 RT with only 13000 mile on the clock. I didn't add my faulty horns or faulty gearbox as you wouldn't really see anything. A new gearbox,new horns, new clocks, new pannier ,new stand, new front forks all changed out within 14 months of ownership.. they are crap beleive me.I had two ST1100's over a period of five years and had no problems I had a beemer just over a year and had as many problems with the one bike that most people wouldn't have in a life time. The machine didn't even run correctly and it was a twin spark model that was supposed to have the flat spots sorted well mine was not. I would rather take the bus than buy another Beemer .

[B11RGER]

you can see how easily the paint was damaging on this four month old, 8,600 mile R1200 RT. I had this bike while BMW were relacing my R1150RT gear box after it had only covered 13,000 miles speaksfor its self............ Look at those lovely exhausts not! At least HOnda have the sense to hide theirs.

[beemerman2k]

Here's a couple more uses for the 1200 boxer motor.

IMO, Beemer styling is getting weirder by the minute.

BMW styling is getting stranger by the minute for both their cars and bikes, but I like that Motard model! Makes for a great replacement for their R1150R! I wasn't aware of that model prior to seeing it here.

[racer1735]

Prior to my purchasing an ST1300, I was shopping it vs. the R1150RT. The major Honda selling point for me was the fact that there is not a single 'authorized' BMW dealer in my entire state! Nothing like having to make a 180-mile trip to Chicago just to have your major service performed.

[kingprawnokay]

Beemerman,

My favorite current BMW model is the HP2 1200GS. I sat on one at my local dealer. It's not practical, but think I would have a permanent smile.

IMO the R1150R "Rockster" is very good looking (better looking than its replacement). Just my opinion.

[beemerman2k]

Is the Motart scheduled to be the "Rockster" of the new R1200 series? If so, I feel your pain, but I like the look of that Motard. The only problem is that the look writes a big performance check, I hope it can cash that check out on the road!

[Kempo-STer]

BMW styling is getting stranger by the minute for both their cars and bikes, but I like that Motard model! Makes for a great replacement for their R1150R! I wasn't aware of that model prior to seeing it here.


Beemerman...
Nice to see you've stopped by...following Imeyers I bet..

I've always enjoyed your neutrality on BMWRT.com and your willingness to look at the 'other' side so to speak..I joined BMWRT to respond imeyers and he made the mistake of coming over here and saying stupid thing and getting pounded for it..(which if you look at my post I told him it would happen..

You on the other seem very open minded and I enjoy it...You ever get back to New England and into CT give me a shout and we'll trade keys..if you don't have your ride, I throw you mine!!

Kempo Ster Todd

[beemerman2k]

Thanks for the offer! I may take you up on it one day. My fiance just bought a house in Ellington, CT and I plan to return to NE in May or June of this year. Hopefully I'll meet the CT members of this forum then. If we trade rides, I'll be the happy one. *I* like my Road Tractor, but it is a bit dated...

[Kempo-STer]

Thanks for the offer! I may take you up on it one day. My fiance just bought a house in Ellington, CT and I plan to return to NE in May or June of this year. Hopefully I'll meet the CT members of this forum then. If we trade rides, I'll be the happy one. *I* like my Road Tractor, but it is a bit dated...


Beemer dude,
Thats Great!..I work in Hartford and am around the corner from Ellington...
Don't worry about what I think about the RT...I think its a great bike and I saw the brakes in action last July...Man they were great!!! I was thinking you need a seat belt just to stay on the damm thing it stopped so quick! As long as you love your ride who cares right!!
We shall definitely hook up...
Me and my ST buds over here will give you a proper welcome:bow1:
Looking forward to shaking hands bro.

Todd

[beemerman2k]

You must have ridden the R1150RT with the servo assisted brakes. I have the R1100RT (2000 model year). That model doesn't have the servo assisted brakes (thank goodness!), just ABS. I've never ridden a BMW with those kind of brakes except the K1200S, and I thought the brakes on that bike was really nice -- not too grabby or anything. My brakes get the job done; they could be stronger which i guess is why BMW added the servo's on them. Overkill in my view, but whatever.

Oh, when it comes to the Beemers, were I to get another one, I was hoping to wait until that hopeful someday when they dropped the servo assited brakes. Just a better brake pad and the prior generation brakes were fine as they were. Who needs the complexity and the risk of no brakes should you lose electrical power?

[kingprawnokay]

Is the Motart scheduled to be the "Rockster" of the new R1200 series? If so, I feel your pain, but I like the look of that Motard. The only problem is that the look writes a big performance check, I hope it can cash that check out on the road!

Yep, the bike pictured on the left is (I believe) replacing the Rockster in the 2006 line-up. The model pictured on the right is the new R1200S. Like most of the boxer motor Beemers, the new R1200R probably won't break any records for speed, but it should be a nice "naked" contender. BMW will probably retune the motor for a little more midrange for city riding, but it's still the 1200 boxer found in the new RT, ST, GS, and, S models.

The "S" model on the right will probably be the fastest incarnation of the 1200 boxer motor.

[daddysbike]

I don't think I want to go to a Gold Wing yet, although the seat height and center of gravity are low enough, and I'm sure the passenger comfort would be equal to the LT.
Burt Jones


I'm on my 2nd wing and loving it. In the last few years I've gone from an '03 GL1800, '04 ST1300, '05 CBR600,'05 VFR and am now back on a '05 GL1800, also had a 1000 and 650 Vstrom. The wing is the only bike my wife enjoys riding. I work in north Ga and the other day got out of work early and rode 76 in SC over to 28 up into Highlands NC then 76 into the north GA mtns for a nice 200 mile ride home. If my back/hip would let me, I'd still have the VFR to go with the GL1800. Since it won't, I'll likely get another ST1300 for solo riding/touring/commuting. I like having 2 bikes and after all the Honda's, I'm spoiled by great aerodynamics, riding, and low maintenance. I've test ridden the 1150RT a bunch of times but never pulled the trigger because of fear of maintenance $$. I like the riding position and lighter weight of the RT and like the smooth power of the ST. I'm looking at used '04 (twin spark) RT's but will likely go back to the ST (black '06, I have a candy dark cherry GL1800). I had a lot of fun on my ST and sold it for VFR and CBR because I was riding with sportbike guys (they're doing trackdays only now). I will always have a Goldwing, talk about smooooooth power and comfort! none better. I had been away from riding for 15yrs that's why I've changed so many bikes, my riding style was changing yearly, 1st no kids now 2 kids so wife not riding much.
Anyway, I'm drifting. I just thought I'd throw in my .02 about the wing and add that I'll likely be getting my 2nd ST to go with my 2nd GL1800.
I still do like the FJR and RT but have experience and trust with the Honda's.

Steve

[CarSalesman]

Steve: I'm curious about your comparison of the 1000 and 650 VStrom?

[Polovision]

Norman,

You have a veritable cornucopia of information in your head! Always enjoy your posts, just get a kick out of the variety of details your able to come up with. Keep it coming!

Clark
I just like that Cool sign behind him. I know he live close to me somewhere.:D

[naturally wired]

:confused: anyone see those beemer guys post anymore ? lately anyway ?...just wondered ?

[TPadden]

:confused: anyone see those beemer guys post anymore ? lately anyway ?...just wondered ?

I'm a Beemer Guy; also a Kwak, Yammi, Suzi, and Honda guy (not to mention Kabota and Sea Doo) ! If you have a question I will try to answer, if you want to stir the pot I can make something up:capwin:

Current Stable:
98 Honda Valk 52,000 miles
00 BMW K1200LT 100,800 miles
02 Yamaha FZ1 42,000 miles
03 VStrom 1000 31,000 miles
04 BMW R1150RS 28,500 miles
06 Kaw ZX-6R 3,100 miles
06 Honda ST1300A 200 miles

Tom
Gainesville, Mo.

[TPadden]

Wpuld help if I spelled it right - Kubota; I just got off the damn tractor when I should have been riding the ST!

Tom
Gainesville, Mo.

[Bones]

Kubota; I just got off the damn tractor when I should have been riding the ST!

Tom, Did you get the Hondaline mower deck attachment? :rolleyes:

[TPadden]

Tom, Did you get the Hondaline mower deck attachment? :rolleyes:

Naw the Yammi Feejer mower was unquestionably faster, prettier, cheaper, and more reliable. I tried the Beemer mower but it just wouldn't work; the service manager said that my grass wasn't uniform enough so as a safety feature the mower wouldn't cut it!

Tom
Gainesville, Mo.

[scrmpyjack]

Hi Guys. I am very new here.

I was all set to get the NEW 06 FJR, when ever it arrived at the dealership.
I am just waiting for the call.

I had stopped at Neilsens in Lake Villa, IL when I happened to see a 06 Black :eek: ST. I had never seen a black one before. I was blown away.

So I started to do a little research to make sure I was getting the right bike for my self. Now I am NOT SO SURE:confused:

I am starting to lean toward the ST. Why?? 1st it is a Honda. Second, it felt very comfortable. Third, engine life span. I ride atleast 15,000 miles a year. Rain or shine.

I currently ride a 2000 Triumph Trophy and looking to step up. She is looking her age.

I never knew that there were so MANY problems with the yamaha.

I have always heard that Hondas run so well that they become almost boring.
just change the oil, and buy good gas and they will run for ever.

I do not beleave that I need at that speed and power that the FJR offers.
I want dependable, comfortable, minimal maintenace issues.

And as for what I would get if money was not an issue. A BLACK GOLDWING:06biker:

[naturally wired]

TPadden.....no turd stirring here :) ...just noticed that you guys hadn't posted for awhile..............I do have an Idea for you ....try a ZZR1200 and post back what you think.......you may want to update that stable ?or maybe not ?....thats my 2 cents for you.......no charge :cool:

To scrmpyjack.....buy the st (.)....if later you want to go faster...do the these three mods....k+n air filter , 61 psi pressure regulator , and aftermarket pipes.......:cool:

[TPadden]

TPadden.....no turd stirring here :) ...just noticed that you guys hadn't posted for awhile..............I do have an Idea for you ....try a ZZR1200 and post back what you think.......you may want to update that stable ?or maybe not ?....thats my 2 cents for you.......no charge :cool:

I've been riding for over 40 years and have averaged more than 40,000 miles per year for the last 8. When my wife is asked why she lets me have so many bikes she replies "because he rides them all and has never gotten rid of a bike before he puts at least 25,000 miles on it". She then used to add "besides, they are all different colors"! Can't do that now - the 06 ZX-6R and 06 ST1300 are both black!

She also shamed me into getting my first true "crotch rocket" - we were at the Kaw dealer admiring the little Ninja and she said " you really ought to get it before you NEED a trike! It's a real hoot in the Ozarks.

As far as the ZZR goes don't know why I didn't consider it but I was looking for my next 100K long hauler and considering the BMW K1200GT, FJR, and ST. My toy barn is full for a while. :D

Tom
Gainesville, Mo.

[Bones]

Hi Guys. I am very new here.

I was all set to get the NEW 06 FJR, when ever it arrived at the dealership.
I am just waiting for the call.

I had stopped at Neilsens in Lake Villa, IL when I happened to see a 06 Black :eek: ST. I had never seen a black one before. I was blown away.

So I started to do a little research to make sure I was getting the right bike for my self. Now I am NOT SO SURE:confused:

I am starting to lean toward the ST. Why?? 1st it is a Honda. Second, it felt very comfortable. Third, engine life span. I ride atleast 15,000 miles a year. Rain or shine.

I currently ride a 2000 Triumph Trophy and looking to step up. She is looking her age.

I never knew that there were so MANY problems with the yamaha.

I have always heard that Hondas run so well that they become almost boring.
just change the oil, and buy good gas and they will run for ever.

I do not beleave that I need at that speed and power that the FJR offers.
I want dependable, comfortable, minimal maintenace issues.

And as for what I would get if money was not an issue. A BLACK GOLDWING:06biker:
This is an ST board so you know how most of us feel. I bought the first ST1300 my dealer received in Fall 2002 and have loved every minute of it. Power, handling, comfort, storage, dependability. I can't imagine you'd be anything but pleased. Just keep in mind that the silver ST's arrived first, so they are the fastest.

[scrmpyjack]

I plan to call my buddy at the dealership and see about picking up the ST.

Letting go of the FJR will not be all that tough. I feel that if I wanted to work on my bike alot or wonder what was going to go wrong first, I would have picked a Ducati:D .


I will keep you all posted and I look forward to more postings.

[naturally wired]

Fastest to end up in my mirror !:03biker: ___________________________:04biker:

[scrmpyjack]

Hi Guys

I just got home from the dealership

I am sad to report that the ST I was looking was sold on thursday.

BUT, the one that I am getting is still in the box in the back room and is going to be put together for me next week. The only miles on it will be from the mechanic.

I proably would have gotten the FJR if it were not for all the information I read here about the FRJ that turned me away.

And the wife made a comment that the front of the ST looks like a cartoon caractor. But she loved the color (black).

So I guesss that now makes me one of you.

Thank you all

Jack

PS. We sat on the Goldwing and I had trouble letting go.