UK Bike Cop Killed on an ST

[stuey]

Unfortunately a UK bike cop was killed earlier this week whilst returning to base from instructing fellow bike cops in the nearby countyside.

The quote below has been taken from a UK CBR 1100XX forum, and was posted by a member of the Transport Police

Just veiwed a thread on a Cop site about a fatal accident involving a Merseyside police bike instructor ( M58 on Tuesday I think) on a Pan ST 1300.
ALL of the bikes have now been taken out of service after this unexplained accident.

It may be for 'checks' but a lot of officers have commented on worries after high speed weaving ( lock to lock !) on these bikes.
Also.. comments on the stability when the tyre pressures change by only two or three psi.
I am obviously not saying that these bikes have a problem ( arse covering time) but, for those of you who have one, or know someone who has one, take care !

Can't get the page to copy due to it being password access.. sorry.

Murt.

A very sad day for the poor guys family, our thought go out to them.
Will keep you up to date with any developments.

Stu

[Bluepanman]

He was doing advanced police course at the time ! Very sad:(

[kingprawnokay]

I'm very sorry to hear this, but I am a little confused.

Was he "killed" by another vehicle or did he lose control and "die". I'm quessing the latter based on the weave discussion afterward. Semantics really, but "killed" assumes another party was involved.

The police bikes must handle very differently (wieght?) with all the gear on. I've never experienced lock to lock weave and I've taken her to 120mph at least.

[MidLife]

...cannot get the page to copy due to password protection...
Murt

If Murt couldn't copy the article, has he tried to capture the screen to the Clipboard and paste into Word or like?

Would like to see the article.

[Louie Louie]

Always sad to hear this:(

[B11RGER]

Crash officer 'cared for victims'
A police officer from Merseyside who died in a crash on the M58 in Lancashire spent several years supporting road accident victims.
Pc David Shreeve was on a motorcycle training course when his bike collided with a lorry in Skelmersdale.

The 38-year-old, who joined Merseyside Police in 1987, leaves a wife, a two-year-old son and a daughter, five.

Chief Constable of Merseyside, Bernard Hogan-Howe, paid tribute to Pc Shreeve, who was "popular and well-respected".


This has truly been a tragic loss of an experienced officer

Chief Constable Bernard Hogan-Howe

Pc Shreeve, who lived in Wirral, was posted to the traffic division in March 1994 where he trained as a family liaison officer three years ago.

He regularly supported victims of serious and fatal road traffic collisions.

Chief Constable Hogan-Howe said: "This has truly been a tragic loss of an experienced officer, who spent his recent years caring and offering support for others.

"Dave was popular and well respected by his colleagues, going out of his way to tutor and mentor officers of less experience than himself.

"The letters and phone calls of thanks he received from bereaved families and victims of crime are testimony also to his kindness and professionalism, qualities which will be sorely missed by us all."

[Diggers1300]

when his bike collided with a lorry in Skelmersdale.

"

Excuse my ignorance but what's a "lorry":?:

[MidLife]

Excuse my ignorance but what's a "lorry":?:

Called eighteen wheeler or truck here. Not a good encounter!

[JReviere]

Maybe it's immaterial, but I'm of the understanding Honda does not sell the Hondaline top/box/trunk for the ST1100 in the US due to aerodynamic stability problems which cause them to be wary of law suits here. I wonder if this is true for the ST1300 as well? I see people rushing to install aftermarket trunks back there and wonder. Is the Hondaline trunk available thru Honda parts in the US. If not, it's probably because of the corporate fear of litigation.
It appears this UK officer was killed crashing into or being hit by a truck... trucks in Brit talk are "Lorries." As a bike instructor, I'm sure he knew of any high speed stability issues induced by aerodynamics of equipment installed behind the rider or by a weight to the rear bias caused by gear back there.
I've had and cruised ST1100, shall we say, well into the triple numbers, above "ST Nominal" on occasions with NO weave ever experienced... no trunk back there and no "GIB" either.... JR

[CruisingDog]

Sorry to hear this news. Always a sad day when a fellow motorcyclist gets hurt and a very sad day when one dies.

My condolances to his family and friends.

[CruisingDog]

I've had and cruised ST1100, shall we say, well into the triple numbers, above "ST Nominal" on occasions with NO weave ever experienced... no trunk back there and no "GIB" either.... JR

FYI, I've had the ST1300 upto 1xxMPH indicated with a Honda top-box on [loaded]. No weave. Rock solid. Mabe the lights/extras that police motorcycles have could be the cause of extra turbulance.

[nurseBob]

FYI, I've had the ST1300 upto 1xxMPH indicated with a Honda top-box on [loaded]. No weave. Rock solid. Mabe the lights/extras that police motorcycles have could be the cause of extra turbulance.
I've had my ST1300 up to similar speeds with the Hondline top-box too. No problems at all. But, the conditions were perfect (no x-winds, no other traffic), I was riding in "still air." Who knows, there are so many factors that can affect high-speed performance. As CruisingDog pointed out, perhaps the police extras played a role. A sad situation regardless of the cause.

[Burger]

I suspect there is a lot to this story that we don't yet know and probably never will. Also, I've learnt through experience to be very wary of the accuracy of any news reports especially in circumstances like this where dramatisation and exageration, presumably to increase circulation of the story, seem to be in order. No matter what the source.

Here are some facts I do know... Not all ST1300's have been grounded across all police forces in the UK. I know this because I saw three on the roads of Wiltshire this morning. Also, not that it even contributed, they don't have top boxes fitted. They do have a pod where the pillion seat should be which I believe houses the comms systems etc. but this is nowhere near as large as a top box.

At the recent Bikesafe course I attended I spoke to a number of the officers who had nothing but praise for the ST saying it was by far the best bike many of them had ridden. In some cases this was a statement from officers who've ridden many different bikes over many years. Not one of them mentioned anything about high speed weaving and two of them were the 'creme de la creme' of police motorcyclists being members of the queens escort.

There are many, many factors that could have caused this police officer to collide with the truck, or the truck to collide with him, which would have been way outside of his, or anyones control, and no amount of advanced training could have prevented. Perhaps he had a blow out, perhaps a slow puncture. Perhaps he skidded on some diesel. Perhaps he'd put all his years of training and experience into full practice and yet at the very moment he decided to pass the truck, the driver made a manouvre that caused them to collide.

The truth is we simply don't know, and anything anyone suggests until the facts are known is pure speculation.

In the meantime, it is a very sad day when any person is killed - on an ST or not.

Regards,

[IslandCopp]

Very well put, Dave... And, our thoughts and prayers go out to the officer, his family, his department, and his community.

[Apollo]

I attended a BikeSafe this year too, and a couple of coppers did say to me that they know of some handling issues that some police forces have experienced and are (presumably) being investigated by Honda due to the almost exclusive use that the UK police make of the ST. On the other hand, I have spoken to other bike cops who say the 1300 performs very well and have no problems with it.

I should say that any problems that the police have encountered - from what I have learned - are right up at the top end of the performance envelope, an area which they will use more than most of us, more freqently....

As has already been stated, this death last week is a chilling reminder that even the most capable and qualified people can still have accident's. Very very sorry for his family and colleagues. I hope the cause of the accident is determined for their sake alone......

[stuey]

Hi guys,

this subject has had quite a lot of replies over on the Blackbird forum, a lot of which I think are quite alarmist from people who have not spent any amount of time on an ST.
Below is a reply from another guy who is also a bike cop.

Can I say first off, that what I say now is not any official report, simply my findings on the police spec ST1300.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I felt very sad when I first heard about the officer in Liverpool. It came through on an email to one of my supervisors. Here was a guy training to do what is one of the most enjoyable aspects of policing and dies doing so. I really feel for his family and colleagues.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Until earlier this year I was allocated an older Pan, the ST1100. I felt this was a superb bike, easy to lift onto the centre stand, panniers correct size to fit folding cones and A4 all weather writers in, handled perfectly but suffered slightly from a pulling forward feeling at your back at speed. Looks-wise, compared to the ST1300 the ST1100 is an ugly git.

Then I moved stations and was allocated a newish ST1300. I'd ridden them during training and when my old bike was in for a service but now I had one day in and day out. And although it is comfortable to ride, it knackers my back putting it on the centre stand, appears to have less useable capacity in the panniers and due to handling problems is now restricted to 100 mph!

Earlier this year all the force's ST1300 went back to ***** for modifications to the suspension because of horrendous weaves and tank slappers around 120 mph.

I don't know the costs of buying the bikes, refitting them to police spec and then modifying the suspension but when they came back I had to test ride mine (as we all did). I took the bike on a windless, dry day onto the motorway. The tyre pressures were correct, tyres in very good condition and I weigh 16 1/2 stone. (Probably 17 stone when togged in full protective gear). I had not changed the suspension settings from how it was received back from the factory.

The bike started to weave at 120 mph and when I tried to ride through it, the weave started to develop into a tank slapper. Its not just my bike, all but one of the motorcyclists report the same experience. (The one who didn't experience the problem is only about 11 stone). It is a frightening experience.

I do not know the weight of the radio, lights and messaging equipment fitted to police bikes. In the panniers I usually carry 4 fold away cones, a small first aid kit, waterproof jacket and trousers, A4 size all weather writer, breathaliser, tyre depth gauge and a few writing pads. A guess at the combined weight of stuff in the panniers being 4 to 5 kilos spread between the two panniers.

One of my sergeants has a civilian spec ST1300 pan and reports no problems whatsoever, even when touring fully loaded with a pillion abroad.

I like Hondas. The build quality is the best there is...in my opinion. It is a MUCH more comforatble bike to ride than the FJR, (we've got a police spec FJR), the ST1300 gives better weather protection than the FJR and the BMW (we have a couple of these), and is easier to patrol on. But the handling aspect is worrying. Having said that, the occasions where speeds in excess of 100 mph are needed do not happen (to me) on a daily basis. As an Advanced Police Rider I've been trained to ride at the maximum speed that the bike will allow. If I was VIP trained, that WOULD mean using well in excess of 100 mph many times and obviously the ST1300 is struggling in this area!

But what do I do if there is a report of someone driving dangerously and fast, say a mile or so further up the road? I can't catch them up if they are moving if I'm restricted to 100 mph.

Would I have an ST1300 for myself? Yes, if they were cheaper and I was a bit older. But I'd tend to leave it more on the side stand because it's balance for the centre stand is poor. My BMW Rockster is so well balanced here compared to the ST1300. Also, I say yes, I'd have one because I can't see myself reaching 120 mph when off duty.

So there you are! My opinions / experiences.

I have to say that I have had a weave from my ST, but we were fully loaded with a pillion and were at the wrong side of 120mph, and even then it wasn't what I would consider to be alarming.
I am also of the opinion that;
there is nothing at all fundementaly wrong with the St's handling considering its size and weight,
other factors must play a part in any handling problem, a lot of which can be very difficult to recreate.

stu

[curmudgeon]

The big question should be when were the offending bikes built? Remember Honda didn't release the ST1300, in the USA, until modifications were made and the engine retorqued. The improper torquing of the engine was supposedly the cause of the weaving. I thought the older bikes were supposed to have been recalled for this problem.

Phil

[IslandCopp]

Without jumping to any conclusions about the cause of this particular collision, there seems to be a lot of buzz regarding the instability issue attached to it. Hopefully, some good factual information can be shared by parties involved in the investigation so that we can know if it was the bike, the rider, another involved party, or a combination of those elements.

Stuey, can you get the e-mail address of the officer that posted the information on the Blackbird site? Or, give me a link to which posting it's on. I would like to contact him directly and share information about our experiences on the ST. I did try to find it on my own, but had little success. I would appreciate anything you can provide.

I will say that the only high-speed instability I've ever experienced was when both of my tires were extremely over-inflated to 50 psi (by me, due to a faulty gauge). I started getting serious headshakes in the 100-110 mph range, and by 120 mph it was, well, worrisome. However, the bike returned to its normal stable self that same day after checking (and lowering) the pressure.

I am not trying to equate this experience to the Merseyside incident. Rather, I'm trying to understand what may be causing other continued stability issues as indicated by the officer who posted the info that Stuey passed on to us. Hopefully we can learn something that will help all of us, whether it's related to the Merseyside officer or not.

[Titanrick]

There was a female motorcyle officer killed last week in Murfreesboro, TN.


http://www.officer.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=2&id=26846

[stuey]

Stuey, can you get the e-mail address of the officer that posted the information on the Blackbird site? Or, give me a link to which posting it's on. I would like to contact him directly and share information about our experiences on the ST. I did try to find it on my own, but had little success. I would appreciate anything you can provide.



Here's the link to post on the main Blackbird site

http://www.bikersoracle.com/blackbird/forum/showthread.php?t=22585

Stu

[IslandCopp]

Thanks for the help, Stuey... I sent him an e-mail.

[Burger]

What I don't get about a lot of this is that the UK police don't buy vehicles on a whim. Typically a manufacturer will lend them one or two to test and evaluate which they do for many miles before finally deciding to purchase them. I am certain they would have done the same with the ST1300's and so I find it strange that this supposed fault didn't show up then. Perhaps, it will turn out to be something to do with the additional weight they carry in the panniers or the loose bulky clothing that they typically wear? Heck, I guess it could even be something as simple as the extra lights they fit? I have no idea, but I find it very odd that this information is creeping out shortly after a police motorcyclist has had a collision with a truck.

Regards,

[claw]

Thought i'd post an update.

Merseyside Police have taken all their Pan's off the road due to this accident...

Quote "140mph police bike taken off the roads

Nov 21 2005

By James Glover, Liverpool Echo


MORE than half the motorcycles used by Merseyside police have been taken off the roads after an officer was killed in a crash.

PC David Shreeve died when his Honda ST1300 Pan European collided with a truck during a training exercise on the M58 near Skelmersdale last week" unquote.

The full story is here http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_objectid=16396235&method=full&siteid=50061&headline=140mph-police-bike-taken-off-the-roads--name_page.html#story_continue

There's a quote in this snippet from Honda themselves http://www.motorcyclenews.com/nav?page=motorcyclenews.articles.articleCategory.a rticle&resourceId=3687882&articleCategory=NEWS_USED-BIKE-NEWS

What it doesn't say though is how the accident really happened, and i'm sure this will be gone into at the inquest. But, it may have just been rider error, and they are looking for a scape goat. That is my own personal view though and until the inquest who knows anyway.

I know from another forum i got to, and a posting by a London Met Police Traffic Officer, he confirmed that it had had the mods done that early Pans needed to stop the high speed weave. He also goes on to mention that many other Police forces in the UK may withdraw them from service and they are going to impliment a 100MPH limit when being used as mentioned in a previous post.

Bad press for Honda and especially Pans.

Alot of forces have been using BMW's as well as Pans, and i would expect that BMW may now be the favoured weapon of choice.

Its still very sad that a rider is killed no matter what bike he was riding, and i hope his family are getting all the help they need. :(

[claw]

I'm sure one of the other lads or myself from the UK, will update this as soon as we hear anything. It'll be good for us all to know why this tragic accident happened, and if indeed the bike was to blame in anyway.

[Peter]

Latest Info

Inquest (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/6600897.stm)

Peter

[dmulk]

This really sounds like a suspension problem. A lot of people feel that the ST is already "under sprung". I wonder if with the added weight of the emergency equipment and the change in aerodynamics if a suspension mod needs to take place to fix this issue...

Just thinking out loud.

[cool69]

I've recently owned a bandit1200S and Yamaha FZ6 and after owning the ST I believe there could be something to this. I have had up only around 115 mph and there is no comparing it to the stability of the other bikes I have owned. I never felt unsafe but it was not near as comfortable for me as the bandit or the FZ6.

[STealthyST]

Saw this item on the BBC web site...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/merseyside/6600897.stm

[HankSTer]

Wow. This is very sad for the officer(s) involved. What a tragedy really.

They do mention that its only related to Police versions with their heavy additional equipment. Let's see how Honda responds.

Condolances for the officers family, may he rest in peace.

[Raven]

I had the opportunity to play around on a ST1300PA demo model today. The biggest difference I noticed between the PA and my '06 was the handlebars. The PA's bars are wider by about an inch and flair outward a slight bit more. The PA riser brings the bar up (higher than the Heli-riser) but not back. Low speed riding was great as the bars give one a bit more leverage than the civilian bars but I didn't get to take it out for a high speed spin. The PA's are running Dunlop D220 tires.

BTW, the PA's have a governor on them limiting top speed to 120.

Despite being fully loaded, the PA really didn't feel that different from my civilian '06 (which has seen triple digits fully loaded with the GIVI topbox and been solid as a rock) with the exception of the bars. I agree with others who suspect suspension set-up issues although I suppose if one death-gripped the bars, with the added leverage, one could really upset their stability without realizing the amount of rider input they're giving.

Condolences to the fallen officers' families.

[Herleman]

One thing that always crosses my mind in these things is that while we (or at least most of us out here) constantly mind the condition of our bikes. The same might not be true of bikes maintained by a municipality. I've worked for the government in several places, and I always was leery of taking a car from the "motor pool" because you never knew what its condition was.

Is it possible that the ST1300Ps that have been involved in these issues in England have not had proper maintenance (e.g., tire pressure, shock adjustment, brake repairs)? It just seems strange that these bike are used by so many people privately, and the private bikes seem never to have these issues. Do we know were eles beside in England that STs are used for police bikes (obviously, there are many here in the US). Have we heard any issues from any other users?

I also wonder if Big Moolah Werken makes sure that the press gets a full snoot of any bad press that comes up around the ST.

[tommyboy]

I had mine up to 115mph on the 605 Freeway in Southern California for about 7 minutes (couldn't believe my speedo wasn't broken). I was being tailgated in the carpool lane at 90mph and I wasn't passing anyone in the other lanes, so I punched it to get away from the guy, figuring I was probably doing about 80 mph at the time. Going home I was cruising along at an indicated 70mph and passed a car with a digital speedo. his speed was the same as mine. I have a Givi top box and at that speed I was not uncomforatable, and no stability issues. (It was a Saturday morning about 7:30 A.M.)

[hojo in sc]

While I didn't have added weight on the back of my bike (trunk was off for other reasons), I did 108 mph and it felt just fine.

[Actionfigurejoe]

I had problems with off throttle weave at high speeds after the Honda top box was installed. One near fatal incident occured along Nevada's Hwy 50. I was heading east about 10am. I was traveling at speeds between 110 and 135mph on GPS. The weave was unpredicable when it occured. At one point I had passed a semi and the bike launched into a near uncontrollable weave. I sold the top box and moved to a smaller soft bag. The weave completely vanished. I won't go back to a top box. No way.

[spd2918]

I am sorry to learn of the officer's death.

Do the UK cops routinely train at higher speeds than others?

I don't know enough about physics to make any broad, sweeping statements about high speed stability, but I have heard complains about other bikes. Any bike, set up poorly, can be unstable. The natural resting position for a motorcycle is on its side.

The equipment the cops carry doesn't weigh as much as your passenger nor is it placed as highly.

I ride a Police Spec Electa-Glide at work and some officers complain of fantom wobbles during off throttle turns. I took both my department's bikes out and (gradually) worked them into deep turns while chopping the throttle off. I found absolutley no problems.

I have Goldwing buddies that have read about the same thing. I just don't see it. Maybe some bikes are just set up poorly from the factory.

[lawmanuk]

the Force I work for withdrew the 1300 also, I experienced the weave but my bottle went and i gently shut the throttle, honda tried to pass the buck with us and claimed all sorts as the cause including " rider capabilities" which to me is utter b*ll.

We checked the worst of the bike, even had it into our local Honda dealers to firstly check all the torque settings on the engine/frame/swingarm and removed all the police equipment but it made absolutely no difference whatsoever.

We actually sent video footage of the bike to Honda to show them the apparent problem but it made no difference. Apparently after months of haggling the worst bike was returned and Honda eventually admitted that they didi not know what caused the problems on this bike but it was apparently returned to civillian spec and sold on to some unsuspecting member of the public.

I agreee fully with what HankSTer says and pass my condolances to the officers family, I could go into the saga in depth again but before the "crash" of the website I posted a couple of items fully explaining the experiences we had and if someone has more time than me, I am sure someone will find it. I am sure it was under wobble & weave or something similar.

I will try find the video footage and somehow try post it, but if anyone has questions please PM me and I will try explain again fully the problems we had.

Oh and to the unsuspecting member of the public who bought a white 04 plate 1300 from a honda dealer...unlucky and keep the speed down!!!

Ride Safe

[Burger]

The cop was killed in 2005. It's taken this long for the results of the inquest to be published.

The natural resting position for a motorcycle is upright when it's moving and only on it's side when it's stopped.

We have some UK cops here who can answer more accurately than I can, but yes the m/c cops here train at high speed. However, PC David Shreeve, the officer killed wasn't I believe a trainee... he was an instructor with quite a few years experience.

The thing I find scariest about the inquest results is as they say, it happens unpredictably, only under certain circumstances, and when it happens it's uncontrollable. So in other words, they too can and do ride at very high speeds with absolutely no problem and all of a sudden, one day, it happens. That's real tough to deal with and reconcile.

Regards,

[Burger]

We appeared to have two separate threads going on the same subject so I merged them together.

Regards,

[kingprawnokay]

I agree with others who suspect suspension set-up issues although I suppose if one death-gripped the bars, with the added leverage, one could really upset their stability without realizing the amount of rider input they're giving.

Rider input was the second thing that entered my mind after the wieght of extra equipment/suspension set-up. Glad you mentioned it. I guess people (understandably) feel it would add insult to injury to suggest that the experienced rider(s) may have made an error or contributed in some way to the weave.

[voyager]

Hi Guys well the issue on this Highway policeman getting killed on his 1300 afraid was 9 November 2005, but the inquest only going on now. Incident happen while in high speed training on a motorway in Merseyside, full details were never fully been released but it involved rider overtaking and hitting a truck at very high speeds (approx 110mph) with a uncontrollable weave reported by the instructors following. A second policeman out training was also killed so after on his 1300 but note at low speeds and collided with a park vehicle.
This debate on the weave has opened up a huge response from other police forces in the UK, stating its excites and has been there since the 1300 was launched and adopted for the police and emergency services. Honda completely denied the problem and still do, but quickly brought out the top box spoiler and saying tires pressures were critical issue for the weave. (But sadly it did nothing to eliminate it)
This major concern on safety at high speeds has been mainly with the emergency services carrying extra equipment.
Its got to stage now since that November incident that many police regions are and have been withdrawing the 1300 from service completely and going back to the 1100 pan or BMWs.
It’s a bit of a tight lipped subject over here but some regions have told police riders not to buy 1300 even for they own personnel use. Many police riders if asked are open about the weave problem.
We have to openly admit the speed weave is over 90mph to 130mph and why are we doing that speed anyway and breaking the law. And would you have a claim against Honda if proven.
Its funny that here in UK pan riders who ride two up fully loaded report the weave less to almost zero then those riding solo with or without top box.
Here in the UK were 70mph is the limit but 80-90mph is normal. The pan sits at 90mph with out any indication of the speed. So its quite easy to get to drift up to a (possible) weave situation.
Fixed speed cameras are everywere in UK, in vans, mounted in unmarked cars and on bikes like Hayabusa to tail you on motorways. It’s a cat and mouse game now, which is a huge income for the police regions in fines alone, so yes we all do speed.
With the euro train now we can cross over and gain access to the autobahn with no speed limits, is were many off us who travel 100-130mph for long distances are aware that the weave comes and goes depending on road surface and wind direction. Its accepted now and it excites and those who do travel at these speeds are prepared to live with it.
It’s a fantastic bike the 1300 and not much can touch it, if asked only a few would consider a bike change for the above problem. Honda needs to be careful, as the public services are a big customer. UK police alone run nearly 500pans.
Voyager (UK North west Pan club)

[dduelin]

Hi Guys well the issue on this Highway policeman getting killed on his 1300 afraid was 9 November 2005, but the inquest only going on now. Incident happen while in high speed training on a motorway in Merseyside, full details were never fully been released but it involved rider overtaking and hitting a truck at very high speeds (approx 110mph) with a uncontrollable weave reported by the instructors following. A second policeman out training was also killed so after on his 1300 but note at low speeds and collided with a park vehicle.
This debate on the weave has opened up a huge response from other police forces in the UK, stating its excites and has been there since the 1300 was launched and adopted for the police and emergency services. Honda completely denied the problem and still do, but quickly brought out the top box spoiler and saying tires pressures were critical issue for the weave. (But sadly it did nothing to eliminate it)
This major concern on safety at high speeds has been mainly with the emergency services carrying extra equipment.
Its got to stage now since that November incident that many police regions are and have been withdrawing the 1300 from service completely and going back to the 1100 pan or BMWs.
It’s a bit of a tight lipped subject over here but some regions have told police riders not to buy 1300 even for they own personnel use. Many police riders if asked are open about the weave problem.
We have to openly admit the speed weave is over 90mph to 130mph and why are we doing that speed anyway and breaking the law. And would you have a claim against Honda if proven.
Its funny that here in UK pan riders who ride two up fully loaded report the weave less to almost zero then those riding solo with or without top box.
Here in the UK were 70mph is the limit but 80-90mph is normal. The pan sits at 90mph with out any indication of the speed. So its quite easy to get to drift up to a (possible) weave situation.
Fixed speed cameras are everywere in UK, in vans, mounted in unmarked cars and on bikes like Hayabusa to tail you on motorways. It’s a cat and mouse game now, which is a huge income for the police regions in fines alone, so yes we all do speed.
With the euro train now we can cross over and gain access to the autobahn with no speed limits, is were many off us who travel 100-130mph for long distances are aware that the weave comes and goes depending on road surface and wind direction. Its accepted now and it excites and those who do travel at these speeds are prepared to live with it.
It’s a fantastic bike the 1300 and not much can touch it, if asked only a few would consider a bike change for the above problem. Honda needs to be careful, as the public services are a big customer. UK police alone run nearly 500pans.
Voyager (UK North west Pan club)
It isn't a problem on our side of the pond but civilian bikes don't have a light pole or two sticking up in the airstream nor high mounted heavy gear boxes where a top box would be.

I'm sorry for the loss of two fine men but this issue just goes on and on and on.....

[alphafang]

Regarding ST1300 instability.
Just got this link on my club site.
You got to read this.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/6600897.stm

Dont know what to make of it yet.
Paul

[maldos]

Do you know if they have a vertical light pole mounted on the back of the bike?

[Styles]

"For Honda the safety of our riders is paramount," a spokeswoman said.

"We will continue to liaise with the police in light of the coroner's verdict.

One would hope they will "continue to liaise" as well with the larger ST community.

Styles

[BlaSTr]

Thanks for the info.

They mentioned going 110mph and losing control. I know that my ST1300 will do that and exhibit no wobble whatsoever, even with the Givi on. I wonder if it's something to do with the accessories they add to the bike. The constable went off during "training" - at 110mph!? And there was no mention whether this was an isolated case or another log on the fire.

Please keep us informed if there are any new developments.

BlaSTr

[patentcad]

Thanks for the info.

They mentioned going 110mph and losing control. I know that my ST1300 will do that and exhibit no wobble whatsoever, even with the Givi on. I wonder if it's something to do with the accessories they add to the bike. The constable went off during "training" - at 110mph!? And there was no mention whether this was an isolated case or another log on the fire.

Please keep us informed if there are any new developments.

BlaSTr

I have also had my 2004 ST up to 100-110mph on a clear highway in light winds (and the factory top box) without any hint of instability. I certainly hope all the parties involved (i.e. the UK Police and Honda) and ascertain what is causing these bikes to lose the handling plot in certain high speed situations. I suspect that once you're north of 100mph on a 600lb+ motorcycle festooned with all manner of non-aerodynamic hoo-has (which would include most police motorcycles) this could be a potential issue.

A bit surprising that 18 months farther on nobody seems closer to unraveling this tragic mystery, particularly considering the stakes involved for the UK Police and for Honda.

[alphafang]

Do you know if they have a vertical light pole mounted on the back of the bike?

Yes most do have a strobe pole.
Paul

[MilesFromNowhere]

...A bit surprising that 18 months farther on nobody seems closer to unraveling this tragic mystery, particularly considering the stakes involved for the UK Police and for Honda.

That's a mouthful.

In spite of all the chatter on the forums, there are no new facts for any of us to analyze.

Many many many months ago, Merseyside said they would investigate the accident and publish the findings, but they haven't (I think?). So their review process has no public/independent scrutiny.

Yet, there is a good chance non-Honda authorized modifications/practices contributed/caused the outcome. Convince me Merseyside is seeking the truth. Really, is anyone surprised in the attempt to blame Honda?

And, the expert witness "is to write to the chief". For Pete's sake, how long does it take to put an acusation in writing?

Here in the U.S. we know damn well on any given court proceeding, you can get any given expert to testify in any way you want ($$$$$$).

It's all politics and legal posturing now. Were I Honda, I wouldn't comment until they showed their cards either.

For those in the U.S. that have experienced high speed wobble/weave, please direct me to your claim filed on http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/

[alphafang]

I just wonder how often the head stock bearings are checked on Police bikes?
Unless the officer does it, as far as I know they would only be checked at MOT time am I wrong? None of the problem bikes would be old enough for the need of an MOT.

[uptoblackwood]

I've got almost 40,000 miles on my ST 1300 now and I've done a lot of highway runs over 100 mph. My top speed on the bike was 148 mph on a straight stretch of flat road in southern Arkansas.
I have had some high speed wobble.....and I have had a bike as steady as a rock. There are so many factors to consider. Tires/pressure, weight/trim issues, accessories, i.e. poles (duh), surface over which the bike is traveling, wind...not only speed but I've found direction in relationship to direction of travel is very critical.....
I've experienced mostly very stable runs over 100 mph. In the runs with wobble issues....I can pretty well establish in my own mind/case, that tires were the culprit. I also always come to that kind of speed carefully and in every case felt the wobble (if there was wobble) start in a small way and slowly amplify as I contined to add power. When I experienced wobble, I got to a point where I knew it was time to back down and NOT lose the battle. I'm sure others will point to other things or perhaps combination of things that may be the controlling factor(s) in the lack of control.

I've got a GIVI 52 topbox that's on the bike most of the time. I load the bike heavy at times and run two up often.

This is a complex issue and I hope that all parties do a very careful and honest job working out solutions that make for a better bike in the future. I love the ST1300 and would hate to see it go away because of litigation or political positions.

Forest

[STill Fiddlin]

I've got almost 40,000 miles on my ST 1300 now and I've done a lot of highway runs over 100 mph. ...Hey Forest, thought you'd dropped off the planet. We met at a pie run in Conroe a year ago or so. Still racking up the miles, I see.

[pretbek]

Yes most do have a strobe pole.
Paul

I remember reading a thread on this forum about this same problem. A test was done where a second strobe pole was added, to make the wind load symmetrical.
The wobble was either greatly diminished, or completely resolved.

[uptoblackwood]

Hi Keith....

I'm still putting as many miles on the bike as time permits. I have to 'lay low' during the Dallas Opera season each year....as I put in 6 hour or more a day on my clarinet...six days a week. I do continue to ride a lot....just not the multi-day, high mileage kinds of rides. This past years season is over and I'm riding more now....a few days in the Hill Country this past weekend, which was great. I plan a trip to Boulder, Colorado the end of May, to visit my youngest daughter. She attends the University of Colorado. I'll make a run to Richmond, Va soon...to visit friends....and do that run starting south starting on the southern end of the Natchez Trace, run up the Trace to Nashville and then over to Va. A lot of good road for the ST on that run!!! Maybe I'll dip into NC and have some fun...
I'll give you a shout next time I'm in your area. That Pie in the Sky place had very good grub.

Cheers

Forest

[OlDrifter]

I remember reading a thread on this forum about this same problem. A test was done where a second strobe pole was added, to make the wind load symmetrical.
The wobble was either greatly diminished, or completely resolved.

I've been thinking about this for the last day or two. On several occasions I have been driving a cage in freezing rain which begins to accumulate on the radio antenna. After it gets to be 3/8" to 1/2" in diameter it begins to oscillate violently from side to side.

THAT reminded me of this famous video from 1940 when high wind begins to cause violent oscillations on the cables of the Tacoma narrows bridge...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0Fi1VcbpAI

And THEN I remembered these disturbing photos from Mark Lawrence's page showing an obviously VIOLENT ST1300 crash that occurred for unknown reasons. NOTE THE POLE on the bike before the crash!!

http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Green.html

A pole-induced oscillation at a certain windspeed COULD produce a catastrophic result.

Just thinking out loud. Any engineers in this place??

STeve :07biker:

[OlDrifter]

Answering my own question... I suddenly realized I have an old friend who works for Boeing and has a PhD in aeronautical engineering!! DOH!

I emailed him, and he is forwarding my question to another colleague who has more expertise in this area, but in part, his initial response follows:

Every structure or system has one
or more natural frequencies. If you pound (or tap) on a structure at
that frequency it will deflect more and more until the deflection/motion
tears the structure apart. The placement of the natural frequencies has
a lot to do with the distribution of the masses in the structure and the
stiffness of the structure.

What I know about the Tacoma Narrows bridge is that the wind (at the
right speed) was the cause of the forces that excited one of that
bridge's natural frequencies (there are usually multiple natural
frequencies)until its deflections shook the bridge apart.

A motorcycle is going to experience vibrations of different frequencies
as it cruises at different speeds. So a motorcycle could be stable at
lower speeds, unstable near a speed that excites a natural frequency,
and then stable again at even higher speeds. If the instability is too
great you get a wreck (due to loss of control) or a catastrophic failure
(a part breaks due to a crack starting and then growing across a
structure). Usually the loss of control comes on gradually and causes
people to slow down so that the loss of control diminishes. A
catastrophic failure is sudden. At least one of your pictures shows a
break that could be the results of a crack propagating.

Since the natural frequencies depend on the mass distribution and
stiffness when you change the mass distribution and/or the stiffness you
change the natural frequencies. It is possible that adding a mass on a
pole (radar detector) could cause a natural frequency to occur a driving
speed and that that could cause a problem.

I'll add more information if I receive a further response from his colleague. In the meantime, I was also thinking about seeing stop signs oscillating VIOLENTLY in the wind- sometimes rotating as far as 180 degrees left to right at a certain wind speed. I think we're onto something here- and that the poles (and top box?) may be the source of oscillation at a certain speed.

Still thinking out loud,

STeve :07biker: