What to buy: 06 K1200GT or ST1300

[RoadSurfer]

I'd like to add a sportier ride to my stable, to compliment my GL1800. Though I've been expecting to buy an ST1300 once I have enough money saved up, lately I've become quite excited by the information about BMW's pending next generation K-GT, the K1200GT (see, for example, http://www.bmwk1200s.com/07-K1200GT.pdf).

Inspite of a pricetag that may be almost 50% higher than that of the ST (!), the Beemer is looking very good in comparison.

Predominant among the attractions of the Beemer is its suspension. If you read the analysis Guy Boutin has written comparing his ST13 to the more recent addition to his stable, an 05 R1200RT (http://www.bamarider.com/The%20Motorcycle/rt_or_st.htm), you will see that the Beemer's suspension, especially when enhanced with the ESA feature, is head-and-shoulders above that of the ST (or any other sport-touring bike for that matter). I expect that the same will be said of the K1200GT, which will utilize the same suspension technology.

The K-GT will have everything else the ST has (well, except dual mufflers) -- electric windshield, adjustable seat and bars, heated grips, ABS -- and more: factory cruise control, mirrors that will allow you to see over a duffel bag strapped to the passneger seat, on-the-fly electronically adjustable suspension, heated seat, quite likely better wind management (given Guy's experience with the RT), quite likely considerably less engine heat directed at the rider, slightly lower weight, greater HP and torque, onboard computer read-outs re oil level, etc. (that will be actually readable in all light conditions), Xenon headlight, added power socket, sixth gear).

Please, puh-leeese show me the error of my thinking! Please explain to me what I am missing here.

I know about the relatively high cost of BMW maintenance. I know about the fewer numbers of BMW service outlets. And I sure as hell know about the sticker price difference. But, putting all of those issues aside, what are the arguments in favour of the ST over this new Beemer?

Help me out here, guys.

[Blue STreak]

Sounds like you've already sold yourself.

For me, nothing about the GT justifies the price premium, but maybe you've got more money to spend than I. I'm also troubled by the ongoing quality problems with BMWs (just read the BMW forums and mailing lists if you want details) and BMWs unwillingness to acknowledge to address them.

Motorcyclist magazine was not quite as enthusiastic about the suspension on the new K bikes. And for a lot less than 50% of the price of an ST, you can upgrade the ST's legs a bit.

In the end, it's your money. Buy what you think will make you happy.

[Doobage]

I'd be very interested to see how it compares on a side by side ride. Some day I hope to try one out just to see if I should consider it or not.

Sure, maintenance might cost a little more, but I think that's not very significant to the cost of ownership. And if you are in the middle of nowhere when any bike breaks down, it doesn't really matter that much as to how far away the next dealer exists. Besides most of these touring bikes are built for the long haul. So I don't think reliability should be too large a concern.

Merely, which one do you enjoy riding. Things like vibration, sound, feel of the bike at speed and while at rest. The FJR feels more sporty than the ST, but also vibrated slightly more and sounded less attractive to me. Being half German, I've always had a natural affinity for things from the fatherland, but the cost at this point was too high for me to really consider it. Afterall, the ST is my first bike.

[Coop]

BMW listed the negatives of the ST as
1. wobble at high speeds
2. heavy
3. sixth gear

I live in a town with a population of 200,000 people and the nearest BMW dealer is 300 miles away. Hardy what I would call convient. The only high speed wobble I've encountered is the wobble caused by topping a hill going very fast and seeing the police car beside the road. I believe this is called the "Oh Sh_t Wobble".......at least that was what I was saying right after I say the black and white car.

I've gotten 10K on my bike and it doesn't seem nearly as heavy as it did at first. I prefer to think of it as stable and a joy to ride.

That leaves sixth gear. The St has an engine that allows you to make second gear starts and will run 100mph in third gear. Drive it in a civilized manner and it will get very good gas mileage as well. It doesn't need another gear to row it down the road like the BMW, but it's your money. We all make choices in life...some good and some bad. Buying an ST is certainly one I enjoy living with.

Billy

[JReviere]

Be sure and check out the Warranty issues. Over the last 10 or so years, Beemers have had a notoriously poor record in terms of transmission and drive shaft failure rates.

I've a friend in Mexico who, due to the road conditions, choose a R 1200 GS Beemer. It is superb for the less than superslab quality of the non-toll roads there. But.... for a minor recall inspexion and replace of an "O" ring, he had to take the bike over 100 miles to the BMW corporate center for the work. He's had multiple other minor problems and been able to repair them himself (often a positive in an underdeveloped environment) but dealer support is always an issue, especially if you are not a talented wrench, don't have adequate equipment, or adequate working space.

Two things would weigh very heavily on me and make the choice a 'no brainer.' (1) Cost (all the "gee whiz" stuff does not impress me in the least. (2) Reliability, linked to dealer support in those cases where it's something I can't fix.

ST has been in 1300 wrap now for the 3rd model year. Quirks have been ironed out. Dealer support is relatively easy to find, even on the road because of the number of dealers. Who knows what hidden surprises await first year buyers of the Beemer with all the gizmos to fail, break, or simply not work as the engineering folk say they are supposed to work.

All this and my own gut level reaction to corporate OVER PRICING plus a strong and readily admitted BIAS in preference of Honda makes the Beemer nothing more than a curiosity to me. I would not buy it, even if I had the spare pocket change to pay for it. Not a problem, however, since pocket change of that magnitude have I not.

JR
El Grumpo
03ST1300A
Livingston, TX.

[Fastraveller]

It's nice to have such incredible choices. One great thing you have is that there is no decision necessary at this time. BMW will probably offer test rides on the new GT when it comes out. You can wait for the test ride and then buy whatever feels best to you at that time. I don't think you get a lot for the extra money (IMO!) but that wouldn't necessarily stop me from buying the new GT if there were other reasons to buy one. The jury is still out on the differences in performance between the two. Besides, top level performance figures have almost nothing to do with the way people ride almost ALL of the time anyway. The thing that would stop me from buying the GT right now, is that it doesn't have a proven track record for reliability and ridability and the ST does. BMW footpeg position just isn't that comfortable to me either (except for the GS). Personally, the cruise control is the only thing I can think of that I would like my ST to have. Has BMW really worked out the "surging" gremlins? The jury may still be out on that as well. The reviews of the quality of the handling on the new beemers have been mixed at best, with some mags saying "yea", and others saying "nay".

[GRN]

Help me out here, guys.

Surfer, I was in the same boat in Aug/Sept '04, found the K12GT specs and all the buying incentives very attractive. Then I rode one... decision to go :04biker: became very easy for me, ALL other factors ($, dist. to dealer., etc...) aside.

Bikes are very subjective... they have souls that you either agree with or you don't, and there's no way to get that from specs on paper.

[Horst]

I mentioned the new K1200GT a few days ago .... here are my thoughts:

1) Beemer ownership - if you have never owned a BMW before, and as a Winger you might not have, you need to consider:

a) Snob Factor - nice as they are, Beemerphiles are snobs and the dealers encourage this. Their clientelle are well-heeled and they know it. You may fit in, you may not ... but think about it. BMW rallies are fun, I still go.

b) Maintenance costs - again as a Winger you are not used to dishing out $600 every spring and every fall for valves and such - get used to it or ???

The BMW world is different .... I enjoyed it for 1 year but came back to Honda, it's more 'me'. Having said that, I would get an older K1200GT, the 02-03 type ... new one is ugly :)

[norton]

Having just last week sold my 04 BMW R1150RT, I am flush with cash and itching to spend it on a new bike. I face the exact two bike delemna, and it looks like the BMW is the better bike, and by a pretty good margin. You get a lot more with the new KGT, and yes you get to pay a lot more for it also.
Depreciation is an issue that has not been brought up. Is it fair to say that the BMW will after two years of ownership be worth less on a percentage loss basis than the Honda? I think so, meaning the Honda will hold its value better than the KGT on a straight dollars lost from purchase price basis.
And I tend to get a new bike every three years or so, this makes the BMW even more expensive in total ownership. I am also admittedly getting tired of buying BMW's in some respects just because the name BMW is on the tank.
When I think back, I put close to 50,000 happy trouble free miles on my 1996
ST1100abs Honda, and I am not sure at age 55 now having slowed down, if I need the extra horsepower and upgraded suspension the K bike has over the ST1300. I can put electronic cruise and an accessory plug on the Honda, and have just about everything I want in a bike. I still lean towards Honda.
Norton

[sherob]

b) Maintenance costs - again as a Winger you are not used to dishing out $600 every spring and every fall for valves and such - get used to it or ???


:bow1: :bow1: :bow1: That's just for valves... They tend not to like you doing your own maintenance from what I hear as well :confused: So add oil changes too... Beemers don't like synthetic either as I was told by a BMW shop manager :confused:

BMW = Big Money Wad

[Austin city limits]

The only high speed wobble I've encountered is the wobble caused by topping a hill going very fast and seeing the police car beside the road. I believe this is called the "Oh Sh_t Wobble".......at least that was what I was saying right after I say the black and white car.

I had that Wobble too!!!:bow1:

But,,, I DID,,, have a high speed wobble in Montana this summer... I was about 30 miles behind the group I was heading out of Sturgis with and when I turned onto RT 287 heading for Glacier... Lets just say,,, this is a Great road to make up time!!!:rolleyes:

It has some rolling hills,,, long straight in it and little/no traffic... I decided that my Life/Health Insurance was paid for this month so,,, lets just see what this bike would do... :biker:

The Connie I had last year going through Montana I took it up to 125mph shown on my GPS... It too,,, had a slow wobble in it and I found that it was wind hitting my Backrest bag and once it started,,, it only got worse... :eek: I took the bag off and it was LOTS,,, better...

The ST was LOADED,,, this summer as I was gone 20 days for this 9,300 mile trip... As I went over 110,,, smooth... 120 came and went and it came,,, very fast as the ST was pulling right along... 130 I could tell it was getting about as fast as it would run loaded but the speed was still coming,,, and decided this would/might be the only time I ever let the cob's out so,,, I kept the throttle rolled on... :cool:

As I got to 135 mph I felt what must have been a small push of wind coming from my right side... My opinion was the wind hits the Backrest bag on 1 side,,, which pushed the bike to the other side,,, which,,, then,,, pushes the bike back,,, so on,,, and so on... All I know is when the GPS hit 137 mph,,, I was VERY QUICKLY deciding that this little experiment was OVER!!!;)

Have I had any wobble at all below 120 mph??? No...

Did I have any wobble at all when I was unloaded and following a friend who had his GPS on his bike as we crossed over to 141mph??? No...

The Top Box I am sure,,, will not help you escape from having a High speed wobble... My guess is,,, you put a top box on a BMW GT even,,, get it up around 120 mph or so,,, and you TOO,,, will see a High Speed Wobble in the right conditions...

[pmorritt]

Having owned 2 bimmers (As WE say) , '87 K100LT and "96 R11ST, they are great bikes. They need to be for the cost and really unbelievable cost of ownership. The R-model (twin) does and will always buzzz (even with 10 speeds). Handling is great--loved my k model (wish i still had it). That said, let me put it this way--love my '05 ST-bought Feb this year--miles- just over 6k--maintance cost --about 100 bucks (orig fluid change). Same mileage on a Bimmer--(here in N/Cal)-$900+tax--that's just at 600m. With similar mileage Bimmer would need "second" maintance--3-6 hundred--Fact! Have a friend who has 105k on his 95 R/GS--got a nice patch from Bimmer club. He has keep records of maintance cost--He paid for his bike twice! Sure, any bike will last over 100k if you keep up with maintance and replacing parts. I've had them all--I mean all. I keep coming back to Honda--I don't (anymore) have to impress anyone but myself> :biker: :biker: :biker: :biker: :biker:

[GRN]

a) Snob Factor - nice as they are, Beemerphiles are snobs and the dealers encourage this. Their clientelle are well-heeled and they know it. You may fit in, you may not ... but think about it. BMW rallies are fun, I still go.


No doubt...

Pulled in for some java this fall and parked by two older guys, one on an RT and one on a GT. We passed the usual niceties, and they asked how I liked my bike. I told them what I thought and made a few comparisons to my previous ST11. The guy on the GT said "when you get a chance to ride one of these (gesturing to their two bikes), you'll see what sport touring is really all about". I politely suggested he had his head in his :butt1: and that sport touring had nothing to do with what you ride, but how you ride it. I then made sure to inform him that I had ridden both bikes just prior to the ST13, and wasn't even impressed having only the ST11 to compare... :f2:

[STArnie13]

Road Surfer, I have to say that I agree with most of what everyone has said so far. The local dealer has charged me about $400 for the 12,000 mile checkups on my K12LT. I haven't had the 1300 in for the 16,000 mile service but it should run about the same as the 1100's do I'm guessing. They seem to be close to $400 as well for the major service.

I have had no problems with my LT so far and it is a first year model a 99. From what I have read in the BMW club newsletters BMW owners think Honda has better quality than BMW these days. My LT isn't bad but the fit of body parts is better on the 1300.

Only you can decide which is the best for you. If you keep one for a long time then the price isn't so much of a problem because you can spread out the cost over more years. As long as you have enough money then price isn't much of a consideration. :03biker:

[vintagemxr]

I test road the R1200RT and the R1200ST before I bought my '05 ST1300. The Beemers were exceptionally nice but there was not enough there to justify the extra $5k they cost above the ST1300. I bought the ST, farkled it nicely, and still have another $3,000 left over. If I had money to burn I might have gone with the Beemer just to play with the electric suspension etc. but in my world as it really is the extra cost didn't make sense. BTW, I've owned 5 Beemers over the years, all wonderful bikes, but they've priced themselves out of the game as far as I'm concerned.

The ST1300 does everything I need and increasingly exceeds what I intitially expected from the bike.

[RoadSurfer]

Well, yeah, Bob, I suppose you're right; I've already almost sold myself in favour of the K-GT -- if cost were no issue. But it is. It REALLY is. Hell, I shouldn't even be seriously considering adding ANY bike to my garage, given the state of my bank account and the fact that my retirement is scheduled to come along in only 16 months from now.

No, I realize that passion and gut feeling and all that have to play a big part in any bike purchase. But I'm trying to collect as much objective, evidence-based facts here as possible, so that, whatever decision I make, it'll be based on as full an awareness of all the pros and cons as possible. I am sure I'm missing some very relevant points about each bike.

For example, some observations picked up and provoked by my websurfing in the past 24 hyours:

- It seem's it's possible that even the next generation of the K-bike will be prone to expelling great clouds of exhaust smoke on start-up if it's been parked on its sidestand! This was a characteristic of the only Beemer/Bimmer (whatever) I ever owned -- one of the very first K100RTs of the late '80s. I can't believe that they have yet to overcome this embarrassing characteristic, but, from what I read on one of the Beemer forums, it may be.

- Curiously, it seems to me that the ST1300 crowd is more collegial and enthusiastic about the whole sport-touring thing and that it has a lot more get-togethers around North America than the BMW crowd. I've been spending a lot of time lately surfing BMW owner forum websites, and it just doesn't seem to me that the Bee-immer crowd has the same camaraderie or fun factor in its "community" as the ST crowd does.

- In spite of my amazed discovery that there are some people out there who actually consider the ST13 design to be "ugly" (can you believe that?), I continue to feel it is the best looking design on the road today -- bar none, and certainly including the rather bulky-looking and unsymmetrical K1200GT. The eye candy factor is not insignificant for me. I can imagine spending many an hour, outside the motel room door or alongside the campfire, staring in admiration at the beauty of the ST.

These are all important considerations.

[Horst]

RoadSurfer ... have you RIDDEN all the bikes you're considering ?

Make sure you do .... that's the final test. $$$$$ is a big consideration too. The BMW crowd is not homogeneous, in fact it's a lot like the H-D crowd in many ways .... both groups have money, and they are segmented into old-iron (ie the AIRHEADS) and new-tech types (K1200S, etc) .... and of course they both dress the part ... BMW and H-D logos on clothing, etc ... :D

he he ... just stirring the pot a bit :)

[Austin city limits]

It seem's it's possible that even the next generation of the K-bike will be prone to expelling great clouds of exhaust smoke on start-up if it's been parked on its sidestand!

UUUuuuMMMmmm,,, the "NEW",,, and Improved/Higher frigg'n priced K model has gotten rid of the "Flying Brick" style motor which did lead to start up oddities... I am not sure how the new style could do,,, the same though... :confused:

[Pred8tor]

I can imagine spending many an hour, outside the motel room door or alongside the campfire, staring in admiration at the beauty of the ST.


Yep. I can identify with that!! Can't wait for a camping trip this coming Spring!

These things mean a lot - we shouldn't underestimate the value of a great bunch of fellow ST riders who LOVE sport touring and the ST.

[Kempo-STer]

Well, yeah, Bob, I suppose you're right; I've already almost sold myself in favour of the K-GT -- if cost were no issue. But it is. It REALLY is. Hell, I shouldn't even be seriously considering adding ANY bike to my garage, given the state of my bank account and the fact that my retirement is scheduled to come along in only 16 months from now.

No, I realize that passion and gut feeling and all that have to play a big part in any bike purchase. But I'm trying to collect as much objective, evidence-based facts here as possible, so that, whatever decision I make, it'll be based on as full an awareness of all the pros and cons as possible. I am sure I'm missing some very relevant points about each bike.

For example, some observations picked up and provoked by my websurfing in the past 24 hyours:

- It seem's it's possible that even the next generation of the K-bike will be prone to expelling great clouds of exhaust smoke on start-up if it's been parked on its sidestand! This was a characteristic of the only Beemer/Bimmer (whatever) I ever owned -- one of the very first K100RTs of the late '80s. I can't believe that they have yet to overcome this embarrassing characteristic, but, from what I read on one of the Beemer forums, it may be.

- Curiously, it seems to me that the ST1300 crowd is more collegial and enthusiastic about the whole sport-touring thing and that it has a lot more get-togethers around North America than the BMW crowd. I've been spending a lot of time lately surfing BMW owner forum websites, and it just doesn't seem to me that the Bee-immer crowd has the same camaraderie or fun factor in its "community" as the ST crowd does.

- In spite of my amazed discovery that there are some people out there who actually consider the ST13 design to be "ugly" (can you believe that?), I continue to feel it is the best looking design on the road today -- bar none, and certainly including the rather bulky-looking and unsymmetrical K1200GT. The eye candy factor is not insignificant for me. I can imagine spending many an hour, outside the motel room door or alongside the campfire, staring in admiration at the beauty of the ST.

These are all important considerations.

Road..
The Comradierie here is TOP NOTCH bar none..You'll make some life long friends here without a doubt..
Great group of men and women who are very willing to give you an objective view point should you ask..

I go to BMWRT.COM once in a while and all I can say is those guys are just like harley owners...
No matter what the BMW is the best...Blah blah
It drives me nuts but while at that site there is no fighting city hall and no amount of reasoning with blind faith to a brand..So I don't bother.

Back to the bikes..
It really will boil down to which one you like best. Ride them both..
Once you do that factor in costs, dealers network, etc etc...I know this is stating the obvious but what can I tell you I bought the ST so I don't want to be hypocritical of my second paragraph..

If you do have question specific to the ST that can help you make an objective determination, then by all means shoot..

Whatever you choose do not be a stranger to ST Owners.Com.

THE BEST MOTORCYCLE WEB SITE ON THE PLANET:banr1:

[Kempo-STer]

This is just a post to keep even with the number of posts by HORST:)

Sorry ROAD..just some of the fun we have here...Watch for Horst's rebuttal!:rolleyes:

[kingprawnokay]

Talk to as many Beemer riders as you can before you buy. My local dealership sells Hondas, Suzuki's, and Kawasaki's, and BMW's. Everytime I have been in I have met and talked with a different Beemer rider who has had a serious problem (transmission failures seem high on the list; electrical failures a close second; leaks and buttons falling off third).

It may look good on paper, but the new K-bike tranny has already proven to be unreliable. Two magazines have had problems during testing (Bike, Two Wheels Only). The tranny failed completely during the BIKE test.

After talking with riders and service managers who told me to steer clear of products they purchased or were paid to service, I decided to never buy a BMW product.

How many "quirks" are you willing to put up with?

[RoadSurfer]

You're bringing me back, guys. You're bringing me back.

(Thank gawd.)

[Medicine Bear]

You're bringing me back, guys. You're bringing me back.

(Thank gawd.)

Okay, then, here's another push. I test drove a K1200LT. I liked the bike despite a full 5 minutes of oil smoke the dealer assured me was normal. I hadn't ridden anything for quite a while so didn't have any comparison. I know it isn't the model you're looking at but some things are universal.

The only negatives I could find (besides the smoke) was the high cost of scheduled and unscheduled maintenance and the bike's inability to corner as well as I was led to believe. I put the last one down as a possible problem with my inexperience with the BMW. Also, even though the bike comes with lots of stuff, there are some farkles available. And if said farkle has "BMW" on it, it's going to cost an arm, a leg, a spleen, and your first-born child.

Then I rode the ST1300.

Oh my! The bike felt way lighter and more agile. It didn't smoke. Farkles were relatively cheap. Scheduled maintenance was also relatively cheap, dealers were more plentiful, and unscheduled maintenance was almost nonexistant.

What really sold me, though, was this forum. I have never met a more convivial bunch, especially online. The help and support here is without price and no question goes unanswered.

Yes, I'm trying to nudge you over and nothing, in the end, will except your own subjective values.

Best of luck.

Fred :03biker:

[Horst]

Oh yeah Mr. Hartford Whaler ? .... take that ! :)

[Horst]

... and that ! ... and one more ! .... he he ... ;)

back to bikes ... the old K1200LT is not comparable, it has the 'brick' as pointed out by othes .... and for BMW failures, the rear ends like to fail also but BMW is good about just giving you a new one .... oilhead trannies could be 'crunchy' .... hmmm, didn't like that ! ... in fact after I got my ST1100 the first thing I noticed was WHAT A NICE TRANNY :)

[Reiner]

The new final drive that is supposed to fix the long standing failures seems to actually have made the situation worse.

If you look around shops there are already more R1200GS bikes showing up where they have to replace the whole transmission due to some new component failing on the final drive. BMW seems to have gotten the solution to their original problem. Now you need to replace the whole transmission instead of seals and bearings.

There is no percentage number yet. Unfortunately I don't have the source available but somebody was saying a shop in NM had 3 (three) R1200GS where the transmission failed due to final drive failure.

Reiner

[sport_tourer]

My things I will add to the list........

1. Not sure about the BMW you are considering, but the new BMW GS bikes are all Torx screws...so get a whole new set of tools to work on the bike. Forget any wrenches, etc. But big deal, its $80 for a good set of Torx.

On the note of working on BMWs, how hard can it be to check valves on these bikes.....tapet and lockscrew and your done. While service is a whole lot more frequent than the STs, but shoot, you could do it while you eat your fries for lunch at McDonalds IMO.

2. I ride with what could be called a BMW club, but they accept any brand of bike. I bring my Honda and my Kawaski to their rides/events. I will tell you that its a great bunch of people, good events, and a general blast hitting breakfasts and dinners with these people. I would say most of the people from this club are hard core riders and many of them cover some serious miles each year.

3. I personally do NOT like the servo power brakes on the BMWs. They just feel really strange when you first apply the brakes...like they pads slam into the rotors and you feel such as a clunk.

4. The ST four is smoother than the BMW twin.

5. The ST suspension can be seriously upgraded for about $1000 and your labor.

6. If I was buying something to compliment a Wing, I wouldnt by an ST1300 or BMW RT or K bike....buy the GS model. There I said it.

[tricky_micky]

On top of that lot!

Do not forget to carry your liter of symnthetic oil when going on long journeys. This is just for top up purposes.

BMW in the UK recommend you carry the litre of oil for this purpose. Considering the service costs as well as everything else, they can stick the BMers, hence I have owned Honda St1100's for 12 years and have now moved to the 1300.

The only time my oil is checked is at it's service! Choice is yours.

Mick

[kingprawnokay]

The new final drive that is supposed to fix the long standing failures seems to actually have made the situation worse.

If you look around shops there are already more R1200GS bikes showing up where they have to replace the whole transmission due to some new component failing on the final drive. BMW seems to have gotten the solution to their original problem. Now you need to replace the whole transmission instead of seals and bearings.

There is no percentage number yet. Unfortunately I don't have the source available but somebody was saying a shop in NM had 3 (three) R1200GS where the transmission failed due to final drive failure.

Reiner

I believe the K-bike has a different transmission (stacked) as it is the dramatically raked forward 4-cylinder engine. The whole driveline is probably different.

[JReviere]

The technical reason the "Flying Brick" engines on K bikes smoked was stupid engineering. They put the drive shaft on the right side of the bike which made the cylinder head on the left. When the bike is on side stand, the flat inline 3/4 has the head lower than the crankcase... oil runs down to the bottom of the pistons, rings were not Pinned so when ring gaps rotate they occasionally align end gaps at the bottom of the piston which would allow a good deal of oil to run into the firing chamber... start up... smoke like an old steam locomotive until all that oil burned out. BMW's "fix" was to pin the later rings so they could move around but not align with end gaps at the bottom... It's still dumb engineering to design a problem into a product in such a manner, I thimk. I don't know why their final drives and transmissions have such a high failure rate and I'm not about to find out why by first hand experience either.
JR
grumpy@eastex.net

[Chris Parker]

Okay, finally a topic that I know a lot of... BMWs vs. Hondas

When I first was learning to ride, my bike of choice was a used 95 Pacific Coast that I wish I still had to this day. A great bike for a beginner rider. Sure, I dropped it, even laid it down in a 15 mph curve and it kept on running. Little did I know just how great a bike that was.

But I lusted after the R1100RT, those curves and that electrically adjustable windshield. So, in November of 2000, I traded my PC800 for a brand new 01 1100RT. I had entered into the world of quirky bikes and Aerostich wearing Power Rangers. I loved the bike for its features, but soon found myself struggling to keep up with the sheer amount of serious cash of maintaining the bike. Sheesh, it was soon around 2500.00 PLUS a year to keep the bike running. I need to disclose that I was down to the bike exclusively as my means of transportation, so that is a bit unusual. But still, every time I was in the dealer for this and that, I swear I could hear the distinct sound of registers ringing up sales before I bought one thing. Cha-Ching! I know I paid a few techs salaries for the week! Plus, I had a few problems, the Hall sensor went out, wiring to rear brake light was faulty.

But, I was a glutton for punishment and less than 16 months later, I swooned over the new 1150RT, with the upgraded this and that and caved in once more. Still, I was bleeding red ink and trying to justify the costs of owning the roundel.

Finally, in June of 2004, I had enough. I sold the RT and looked for a bike that could come close to my love of riding the BMW but costing a lot less to own. Enter the ST1300. I had taken a test ride about a year earlier just for kicks, but decided to decline the offer to buy because of my BMW-colored glasses. But I did remember how smooth that V4 was and how much more powerful the bike pulled me down the interstate. So, I looked again and in November 2004, I took possession of a brand new 2004 ST1300A. Back in the Big Red family. I have never regretted it.

I still hang out at the BMW dealer as my old friends still are cool to hang out with, but I do get the impression from some that the ST is beneath them and the Beemer. They could not be further from the truth. In my opinion, BMW does not make a bike that can hold a candle to the ST on two counts, reliabilty and value. Sure, they make great bikes and have some great technology (Telelever, Paralever, ABS - I liked my EVO brakes), but with the final drive failures and the incredible costs of purchasing and ownership, they can't compare to the ST (or even the FJR, for that matter).

All this is to say that the new K1200GT may be a nice bike to ride, but to buy (especially when it is being rumored that the price is going to be near or over 20,000 with the options you are going to want get) and keep when you can get the better built, better priced ST1300, it just doesn't make sense. People who will buy this GT are entitled to, but it just makes me laugh when I see what I used to have to go through just have that little blue and white roundel plastered on everything I owned. Consider me awake and smelling that great, rich coffee that is my STeed.

Also, as a side note, I still give them grief over at BMWSporttouring.com when I post about having going over to the Darker Side (going from a R series Boxer, bypassing the K bikes, and settling in on the V4).:D I have even talked a few RT owners into getting the ST or least giving them serious thought. Funny, over there and on this forum you see a lot of talk about going from the RT to the ST, but not a lot of the other way around, even with the new 1200RT (which I have ridden, marginally better than my old RTs, but not even close to the ST, no matter what you read at that site that says otherwise).

Chris

[RoadSurfer]

Thanks, Leo.

You attribute a lot more knowledge to me than I actually possess, however, but thanks for explaining to me what I seek.

I do, however, know about the unreliability and inaccuracy of the "onboard computer" readouts regarding ABS, oil level and ambient temperature in the latest generation of BMWs such as the R1200RT.

As for the bunk about the BMW costing 50% more, sorry, you'll have to run that one by me again. Here in Ottawa the cheapest negotiated price for a new ST1300A is currently about $18,000 CDN. (and, yes, I've talked to them). The MSRP on the BMW is $25,600 and the option package brings it to $27,600. By my calculation, 50% more than (150% of) $18K is $27,000. What am I missing here? Where's the bunk?

And thanks for your sympathy, but by now I'm pretty well convinced that I won't be settling for the BMW, marketing hype or not.

And I have demo ridden the ST13 several times, most recently for a two-hour solo ride without any dealer along to monitor my treatment of the machine. I won't bore you with the many observations I came away with from each of those rides -- some of them different from those of earlier rides because I was wearing a different helmet or because traffic and weather conditions were markedly different or, I suspect, because the suspension settings were dramatically different than on earlier demo bikes (before I knew better to pay close attention to that factor before setting out on the demo).

Oh, and I don't own an MP3 or even ever use the friggin radio in either my car or on the Wing. I prefer to hear only the sound of the wind, the engine and the tires -- and my own thoughts.

But I'll sure try to pay better attention in the future, guy. Thanks again for the helpful input.

[Erik]

I sold my 04 ST1300ABS for an 05 K1200S... I like everything about it more than the ST.. Frankly I never really felt comfortable, or as one with the ST. Too big, not enough motor, suspension so so, and the heat was a major issue for me. Is the ST a well made bike, of course it's a Honda, good value, low maintence costs, absolutly. Is the ST a great touring/ sport bike, yes it is. But I wanted a Sport touring bike. K1200S 545 lbs wet 146 hp at the rear wheel... And FWIW I don't like the boxer bikes at all.. if I wanted a bike that felt and vibrated like a tractor I'd have a John Deere :-) The new KGT will be expensive, in all respects, it'll also be the class leader. But ride one in the spring. Then you'll know for sure. As for me I don't look at bikes with a fiscally responsible eye, it's a matter of love not money.

[Horst]

If you're trying to add some spice to your life, try this menu:

BMW K1200S .... VFR 800 ... CBR1100XX ... 'Busa ? .... CBR1000RR .... GSXR1000 ... there are many options on this menu.

Since you're keeping the Wing .... don't think touring, think LIGHT ... NIMBLE ... QUICK ... AGILE ! ... all th above qualify :D

[GRN]

If you're trying to add some spice to your life, try this menu:

BMW K1200S .... VFR 800 ... CBR1100XX ... 'Busa ? .... CBR1000RR .... GSXR1000 ... there are many options on this menu.

Since you're keeping the Wing .... don't think touring, think LIGHT ... NIMBLE ... QUICK ... AGILE ! ... all th above qualify :D

As much as I hate to admit it, he's got a point! Only catch might be the pillion detail... even the VFR isn't real popular on that ground.

[Mike]

If Money were not in the equation and read that has money to burn, well then I would spring for the BMW. I really like them and one day would like to have one but until the money tree sprouts I will have to be selective and get the best bang for the buck.

I have an ST1300 with which I am okay with, I liked the rounded outlines of the ST1100 better...but then it was designed by the Germans...or so I am told. I like the handling,braking,ergonomics, and power more with the ST1300....way better than the ST1100 was. Even with mods applied to the ST1100 it can't hold a candle to the ST1300 off the showroom floor.

Realiability,,,,jury still still out on that, over 100K on the old ST was the norm with little to no maint., my ST1300 has been in the shop four times now, still have the waterpump leak but that's about it.

As for a sporty second bike, I'd like to have the BMW K1200 but I have something just as good and proven reliabilty to well over a 100K in milage with routine maint, that does not empty the wallet.....2002 CBR1100XX....a great machine that I actually ride more than the ST1300. There are other examples out there....Busa,CBR1000RR,Triumps and so on.

Choice is simple ......money to burn...anything ! but reality.....reliable,powerful ,good handling CBR or similar bike.

[Kempo-STer]

Oh yeah Mr. Hartford Whaler ? .... take that ! :)


Just remember I am a Canadiens fan..Always have and always will be..At heart I am a canuck.

[wishey1]

Hello,
Good Luck with your decision..........me.......I'm a shopper.......and I found it almost impossible to deal with the BMW people. I was going to be that 1 guy who jewed 'um down, MC or car, no way. I have a BMW 323i but only because the son was so inammered(?) with it, he got the wife to wanting one and, yep, I had to pay their price then. But it went against my grain, now, everything that goes wrong I say------you can guess.
I restarted MC riding 2 yrs ago with a GL1800......A better bike, to me there is none, 20k, and soooo visable. I "stole it", which like I say makes ME happy, more than the great ride. I traded it because I wanted something different and lighter. But, if something goes wrong with a machine it doesn't bother me near as much as hearing of someone getting a better deal than I got!
I'm not proud of that and really don't know why I am that way.....just am.
Now the ST would be a good compliment to the Wing IMO......it is so different.
BTW....it would NOT bore me to hear of your riding impressions.

Those Harley riders will listen to all the talk about how bad quality a Harley is and how it is overpriced, and just smile.....why?......because they are addicted to that sound.....and the know that nothing else out there will do it for them.....nothing. That sound is why they ride. It charges them!

So...........my advice then, is to look inward, and try to understand what "mostly" makes you tick.........What is the main button in there....................and pray about it..............Best........

wish

[B11RGER]

Stick with the Honda.
I after 5 years of Honda ST1100'sthought I would like a change so I went for a 3 month old R1150 RT different from the K, I know. But after its first service I was desperate to get rid of it.The BMW dealer couldn't get it to run correctly. in the 9 months I owned it ,it had to have two front fork bridges replaced as the paint was falling off, likewise the centre stand. The lefthand saddle bag leaked and was replaced the new one did the same. I had the horns replaced as they stopped working because they had filled up with water? the Headlight was prone to condensation. the rev counter and RID clock were changed out due to condensation. The gearbox was changed out at 12,000 mile service as it became noisey.When stopped with my hand on the brake lever the brakes would squeel like mad. You have to put it to a BMW garage for their diagnostic computer checks. Bmw are boastin about how light their bikes are this is because they are using cheap and nasty plastic to build them. Have you seen the 3 colours for the GT. they look like world war 2 German tank colours, come to think of it the design also looks like it is from the same era. Back to them being lighter, well they will just sway about in the wind more. now has your mind been made up ? we love HONDA and don't forget it:) from Sunny Scotland (every day is sunny when you ride an ST)

[Horst]

Gotta add this ...

My 'other' vehicle is an older 312,000 km BMW 528e ... the sedate sedan ... this was once a beautiful car, but the middle owner (between the Dr. and me) didn't take very good care of it.

I picked it up cheap and did the water pump, belt, etc. and it has been great - much like my old Accord once was ! ... if only I could put it through a re-new machine .... those older 5-series were one great car !

[RoadSurfer]

Thanks for you thoughts, Erik. I hear ya. And I’m glad to see that in spite of your admiration for your Beemer, you do allow that the ST is not only well-made but a great TOURING/sport bike. ‘Cause in fact that’s what I’m looking for – rather than a great SPORT/touring bike or a sport bike such as any that Horst and Mike have mentioned (sorry, to me they’re sport bikes, even though to some they are considered sport tourers; I’ve been there and, at 58 years old, can’t go back, regrettably). I appreciate the Wing for what it is, but, in spite of what many GL1800 owners say, Wish, I don’t really think it qualifies as a SPORT/touring bike. It is a heavy, luxury touring ride and its heaviness is a handicap that I can’t get past. I’ll keep it for my wife’s sake, but if I were single and not interested in having pillion company, I’d trade it in tomorrow for an 05 ST.

Actually, in addition to the bulk and heaviness of the Wing, its other disappointing quality, IMHO, is its suspension. It’s fine for totally smooth pavement, but it does transmit the vibration from cracks and even minor bumps (of which we have more than our share here in Canada!) in a harsh manner, regardless of which of the 25 levels you set the suspension at. The contrast that my wife and I both felt while riding the BMW we had on RoadRUNNER Magazine’s Four Country Tour of the Alps last summer (an R1200GS) was remarkable. That experience made me sit up and take notice of the suspension technology that BMW has developed.

In contrast, the latest demo ride I had on an 05 ST13 left me displeased with its suspension – over local roads that are embarrassingly rough. It felt as if it were pogo-ing or bouncing in very tight movements like what you’d expect if the shocks were made of India rubber. I hadn’t felt this characteristic in previous ST demo rides, but then they had never been in Canada but were all on the inevitably smoother U.S. roads at rallies such as Americade and the Honda Homecoming. But now I’m wondering if this bad experience with the suspension of the last ST demo may have been simply because someone at the dealership had wrongly tightened the suspension down too much. Maybe the ride would have been quite acceptable if the setting had been different....

I think that one thing I’m getting from all the feedback you guys are giving me is that it would be just too risky a proposition to sink all that moolah into what is still very much an unknown quantity, AND a quantity which is coming out of a company which has considerably less than a sterling track record in terms of reliability and even quality control. You’ve all added to my reservoir of knowledge about the bad history of so many BMW products, that I’m inclined to go back to the position I adopted after the one-year experience I had with the one BMW bike I have owned – an ‘89 K100RT, truly the most aggravating and faulty motorcycle I have EVER owned in 30 years of motorcycles – namely that I’d never own another BMW product as long as I live.

Thanks again, guys. Keep it coming if you've got additional thoughts.

I appreciate it.

[wishey1]

>>>>>>I appreciate the Wing for what it is, but, in spite of what many GL1800 owners say, Wish, I don’t really think it qualifies as a SPORT/touring bike. It is a heavy, luxury touring ride and its heaviness is a handicap that I can’t get past. I’ll keep it for my wife’s sake, but if I were single and not interested in having pillion company, I’d trade it in tomorrow for an 05 ST.<<<<<

. . . . . . . . . . . . .

......I fully agree...........the GL1800 is the Ultimate touring bike, and very nimble for its size, and I loved it but not a sp.tor......I wanted to try something different..........I wanted something lighter and easier so to speak in town as I don't ride LD very often......so I traded for the ...:biker: ....(got a good deal) but man, it felt like a crotch rocket to me at first......I signed the papers without ever riding one and when I took that first spin around the lot, it was like "uh-oh"........then the wife got on for the 100 mi. trip back......and I got to tell you, the ST is easier for me to drive with a rider on than was the Wing......the Wing felt heavy (1200lbs. 2-up) for tight turns ect. .....the ST is also more 'intimate' in that, you are closer with your rider and I just like it better.....I don't know about faster than the Wing.....that Wing would haul ***, man.......ok I know-----I should of got the blue one.....lol......
So I traded my Wing for the ST.......and I really like it......
I just got my first oil change and WOW......smooth just got a whole lot smoother with the synthetic.......

I think you will be surprised at how easy and fun riding two-up is on the ST ......my wife feels more "open" but likes the ride.....it is "Sport" with one and "Tourer" with two......imo.....

[Erik]

FWIW the new BMW K bike motors are at the VERY least 12K mile valve adjustment intervals, and so far no one on any of the K bike lists has had to even have one done at 24K miles. The new K bikes get hooked up to the diaganostic computer which tells the tech if the valves even need to be checked, let alone adjusted. There is no question the Japanese build very reliable low maintence machines ( love my Honda mower) But as an example I just bought a new car.. test drove several. Infiniti G35X, Acura TL, and another Saab.. I bought an Audi A4 2.0T Quattro.. why? Well the Asian cars had no soul, just not as fun to drive. Ever wonder why so many love their Ducati's FUN to ride, they have character.. My BMW K1200S will not be as trouble free or as inexpensive to maintain as a ST1300.. but fun factor.. not even close! And for me my bike isn't an appliance or a method of transportation, it's a means to escape.

[wishey1]

FWIW the new BMW K bike motors are at the VERY least 12K mile valve adjustment intervals, and so far no one on any of the K bike lists has had to even have one done at 24K miles. The new K bikes get hooked up to the diaganostic computer which tells the tech if the valves even need to be checked, let alone adjusted. There is no question the Japanese build very reliable low maintence machines ( love my Honda mower) But as an example I just bought a new car.. test drove several. Infiniti G35X, Acura TL, and another Saab.. I bought an Audi A4 2.0T Quattro.. why? Well the Asian cars had no soul, just not as fun to drive. Ever wonder why so many love their Ducati's FUN to ride, they have character.. My BMW K1200S will not be as trouble free or as inexpensive to maintain as a ST1300.. but fun factor.. not even close! And for me my bike isn't an appliance or a method of transportation, it's a means to escape.


Although I disagree with almost everything you said, I believe it illustates very well the point I was making......even though you are in the distinct minority with the Audi and the BMW MC, in my area anyway, you found what does it for you..........the harley owners must have 'that' sound........I must have the best deal in history (perceived) or I walk.........your button is escape....and you get on that BMW and believe it's the greatest handeling bike around, whether from ads on tv or actual driving belief, doesn't matter.......it's your perception of what is most important to you.....

I guess it's like what I say about music........it really matters little what 'style' it is.........what's important is.....how does it make me "feel" ........

Feeling being 'soul' in your tems.....

[Horst]

I just read today that a new R1200S is coming out !

You should consider it .... I rode the new R1200ST and was pretty impressed. I used to own an R1150R but the S models have better fairings and, that 1200 boxer motor and tranny are better than the older oilheads.

But it's you, it's all about what you want ... for the price I would pick up a used VFR and just have fun ... maybe even a CBR600 ... whoo hoo !

Ain't this great ? ... and we're not even riding ??? ... HA! ... :biker:

(another martini slurp here :) )

[Kempo-STer]

FWIW the new BMW K bike motors are at the VERY least 12K mile valve adjustment intervals, and so far no one on any of the K bike lists has had to even have one done at 24K miles. The new K bikes get hooked up to the diaganostic computer which tells the tech if the valves even need to be checked, let alone adjusted. There is no question the Japanese build very reliable low maintence machines ( love my Honda mower) But as an example I just bought a new car.. test drove several. Infiniti G35X, Acura TL, and another Saab.. I bought an Audi A4 2.0T Quattro.. why? Well the Asian cars had no soul, just not as fun to drive. Ever wonder why so many love their Ducati's FUN to ride, they have character.. My BMW K1200S will not be as trouble free or as inexpensive to maintain as a ST1300.. but fun factor.. not even close! And for me my bike isn't an appliance or a method of transportation, it's a means to escape.

Hey Erik..
Like I said rearlier..Can't wait to ride with you next season...Try to get to CTstoc next sept..(Link is on the Homepage) however I am sure we'll hook up before then. The K12S is a beaut!

And remember folks..The K is a totally different ride than the R bikes BMW produces...
And I highly doubt there would be belching smoke with this generation of K's...You'd be hearing about this all over the place..

Road..Your choices are incredible..Liek RC..go ride and let your heart tell..(overide your heart with your wallet if neccesary :rolleyes: )

[kingprawnokay]

A little thing...What gets me is that the new K-tourer is wider than the ST! Wider! I thought the ST was hard to negotiate through traffic.

[g17]

I like some of the options available on the BMW and wish Honda would take some ideas from them on what riders want particularly cruise control. Seat options with heat along with heated grips that don't look like an afterthought would be nice too.....

BMW on the other hand might take some tips from Honda in building better looking machines, the ST1300 for instance is just damn beautiful when compared to any BMW......The K1200GT looks nice but those bags look like they came from Samsonite and even worse, they look like someone got a hold to one end of them them with a chainsaw.....

Anyway, maybe it's just me but I have often wondered if BMW designers were displaced eastern block workers left over from the cold-war (anyone ever noticed how Soviet cars looked like a bad rendition of the infamous Edsel?) I mean, most BMW's are just plain ugly and a 6,000 mile service interval for a bike with that high of a price tag? Heck, I don't even think bikes coming out of China and Korea have that short of a service schedule

Btw, did I mention that the ST is just beautiful and sexy too?

[kingprawnokay]

I agree about BMW's styling issues (with cars as well). It's as though they only get it half right with each new vehicle. The rear ends are typically the half that suffer. Unfortunately the new K also looks very slab-sided. Olive green doesn't help. Where's the side car for the gunner?

I'm not a fan of the bags either.

[g17]

Unfortunately the new K also looks very slab-sided. Olive green doesn't help. Where's the side car for the gunner?

I'm not a fan of the bags either.


:eek: :D :D

[RoadSurfer]

One of the other aspects of the new K-GT that amazes me is the total absence of any attempt to protect all that expensive plastic in the event of a fall-over (something that is likely even more prone to happen on the taller Beemer than on the ST). Those bags look so vulnerable (even though apparently one accessory you can pay extra for is some kind of matte plastic covering that can be stuck onto the lower margins of at least the bags).

Can you imagine what the bill would be if the thing were to just topple over onto its side because of negligent parking or bad footing?!! (And my experience with the very oddly shaped and positioned sidestands on BMWs is that they alone are enough reason to always park the things on the centerstand.) With the ST, if the bike falls over you'll get the mirror popped off and maybe scuffed and you'll get some scuffing on the protective guards, but probably no expense.

More evidence that the translation of "BMW" from the German is "Ka-ching."

[Reiner]

I like some of the options available on the BMW and wish Honda would take some ideas from them on what riders want particularly cruise control. Seat options with heat along with heated grips that don't look like an afterthought would be nice too.....

BMW on the other hand might take some tips from Honda in building better looking machines, the ST1300 for instance is just damn beautiful when compared to any BMW......The K1200GT looks nice but those bags look like they came from Samsonite and even worse, they look like someone got a hold to one end of them them with a chainsaw.....

Anyway, maybe it's just me but I have often wondered if BMW designers were displaced eastern block workers left over from the cold-war (anyone ever noticed how Soviet cars looked like a bad rendition of the infamous Edsel?) I mean, most BMW's are just plain ugly and a 6,000 mile service interval for a bike with that high of a price tag? Heck, I don't even think bikes coming out of China and Korea have that short of a service schedule

Btw, did I mention that the ST is just beautiful and sexy too?

I have to agree on Honda taking some ideas from BMW as well as the other way around. What gets me is that Honda is usually the one running behind trying to play catch up on what BMW does.

6000 mile interval for service is better than what Honda publishes in the manuals. It's 4000 miles intervals. Sure the oil change is every 8000 - but you are supposed to roll it to the dealer every 4000 miles. That is worse than BMW. When I look at Kawasaki it is every 3000 miles plus oil change every 6000 miles. So BMW isn't off by any standards.

I'm not trying to say BMW is a better machine (or a worse machine). But let's try to stick to the published/official figures.

Reiner

[g17]

Honda ST1300: 1st valve inspection = 16,000 miles

BMW = 3rd valve inspection at 18,000 miles

[kingprawnokay]

BMW = 3rd valve inspection at 18,000 miles

I think this is only true for the boxers, not the inline-4 K's.

[g17]

I think this is only true for the boxers, not the inline-4 K's.

I stand corrected

[kingprawnokay]

I stand corrected

I think what you intended to say was:

BMW: 3rd transmission replacement at 18,000 miles.:D

[g17]

I think what you intended to say was:

BMW: 3rd transmission replacement at 18,000 miles.:D

Yeah, that's the ticket!:D

[Fireball18]

In the final analysis, you get the bike that appeals to you the most and does for you what you want, no matter what make or what continent it comes from. Buying and owning a motorcycle is more an emotional thing than anything else. Very few buy a bike to serve as basic transportation, these days. As was stated above, it's an escape, a release and a relaxer.

All the different makes/models have their high and low points, and none is perfect, unfortunately. I will agree that BMW styling is, at best, questionable, and the ST1300 is just plain gorgeous. It has beautiful lines that are always pleasant to look at. I miss my ST a lot. Unfortunately I was no longer able to ride it comfortably, physically.

I gotta say, though, that there are no flies on the GL1800 Gold Wing. I've owned 3 other Wings, 2 15's and 1 18, and the 18 is way beyond the 15 in terms of power and handling. Yup, the suspension does feel a bit harsh at times, but that's about the only fault I can find in it. Besides, I wouldn't be able to tow my camping trailer with the ST, and my wife found it uncomfortable to ride as a passenger on the ST1300. So she rode her own. Physical limitations also forced her out of the ST and onto the Burgman 650 which she now has, and absolutely loves.

So when you go out to buy that new bike, take a serious look at all that fall into the category you prefer and go with the one the talks to you the loudest. And have fun doing it.

Merry Christmas!!

[Horst]

BMW's best looking bike was the original R1100RT .... poetry in motion :)

Honda's best looking bike was ... my wineberry ST1100 ... with the CBR-XX coming in a close 2nd .... :D

After that, it's all been downhill .... or at least that's what I tell myself :eek:

[kinzer1]

My father owned BMW bikes all his life. I owned Hondas. My dad liked to take the engines apart and put them back together. I didn’t. There are people that would buy BMWs and Benzes just for the image or status recognition. Obviously, money is not an object to them. Many wouldn’t know, understand or feel the difference between, lets say, German or Japanese made products. I’m talking about the difference between the BMW and Lexus or Infinity. Maybe years ago German automotive technology was superior to others. Today, unfortunately for Germans and us in the US, Japanese automotive products surpassed almost every country in the world. In fact, you can see it in the consumer reports. Japanese made cars are rated much higher then the German cars (in every category). Personally, I think that people shouldn’t buy expensive motorcycles or cars to impress people they don’t even know. And, the ones they do know, most of them they don’t like. Motorcycles are made for riding, not tinkering or fixing them. It is not enjoyable to get stuck miles away from home or the nearest shop. If you want a dependable, reliable and worry free motorcycle, the choice is simple.

[Horst]

I'm not sure what your angle is there, but you're a bit mistaken ...

If your dad wrenched on old airheads, that's not what BMW's are now ... in fact you cannot 'work on them' at all ! ... hence the dealer maintenance costs ... but to suggest they will leave you stranded is nuts.

Both BMW and Honda build a reliable product ... their philosophies differ that's for sure ... Honda builds a great bike at a great price, and BMW also builds a great price at an astronomical price ... :)

As for impressing people ... of course ... and H-D does it best of all with the lowest technology point of any ! ;)

PS: BMW cars are still superior to Honda by far ... and the price matches this. (ie first with ABS, first with single-wire technology, etc. etc.)

[kingprawnokay]

Horst,

Maybe you meant to say that BMW cars are "more fun" than Hondas in that they handle better, and have a little more quicks in general.

After dealing in the car industry for 2 years I have to say that BMW cars are not superior. Oh, the problems I've seen. Heater cores blowing, clunky trannies, engines blowing! Don't even get me started on "maintenance" costs.

I'm not saying that they're not cool cars, just not superior. More like a slightly downhill, lateral move from a Honda.

I'd take an S2000 over a Z4 any day. (This is an educated statement as I've driven both.)

...and what's with iDrive? It sucks.;)

[g17]

I'm not sure what your angle is there, but you're a bit mistaken ...

PS: BMW cars are still superior to Honda by far ... and the price matches this. (ie first with ABS, first with single-wire technology, etc. etc.)

For what it's worth, BMW consistently falls into Consumer Reports Hall of Shame for reliability. Honda on the other hand has excellent scores in comparison.

[Reiner]

BMW for years has been a gizmo paradise.

There are advantages and disadvantages to it. The disadvantage is that as it is new technology it has quirks that need to be worked out. That responsibility most likely falls onto the consumer. The advantage is that you can count yourself as being one of a selected few to have that technology. Once the problems are worked out you will find this technology in competing cars (i.e. Honda). In many cases the technology makes the overall system better (more power from smaller engine, etc).

I'm not saying it's for better or worse. But BMW is trying to stay ahead of this game by giving everyone the latest and greatest technology. I'm sure in 10-15 years all Honda motorcycles will have the equivalent of the latest BMW CANBus technology as well (however with a different name).

Another aspect that I find interesting as well is that BMW is doing more for the older bikes on the street. Ever had an old Honda bike and trying to locate spare parts? I've got a 1986 GL1200 and a 1981 GL500 sitting in the garage. It's getting hard finding some of the spare parts to keep those machines operational or rebuilding them. Remember the GL500 was a huge seller worldwide (with its counterpart the CX500). As well the GL1200 is only 20 years old but you cannot even get a clutch hose for it. BMW bikes with similar age are way easier to obtain original spare parts.

Reiner

[timmybob4]

I purchased a new BMW 325i in '01. After 1 year it was in the shop for:
1. Burned out tail light
2. Defective pollution control valve
3. Driver door speaker trim falling off
4. Passenger door speaker trim falling off
5. Passenger power window motor failure
6. Sunroof visor fell out

All covered under warranty, but six unscheduled trips to the shop in one year on a brand new $30k car absolutely sucks. The dealer said the problems I was having were "common" on the 3 series. I traded the car for an F150 and have never looked back. I loved driving the Bimmer as the engine was strong and the handling was fantastic. But once out of warrantly the costs would have eaten me alive. About 6 months after trading the car in I was called by someone interested in buying the car from the dealer. (The dealer used it as a loaner for a while.) I went over the problems I had with the car. He said the dealer gave him a copy of the work records and since the time I traded the car in they had replaced the two power window motors in the rear.

Maybe the car was a rare lemon, but based on the dealer's comment it sounded more like a "3 series for 2001 tree of lemons". I doubt I'll ever own another BMW auto.

[Horst]

Well, I will also stand by my words ...

My '83 528e has over 312,000 kms on it and it never, ever has let me down. The engine and tranny are original and have never been opened, and I belonged to a club with plenty of E28 owners who found likewise. One of them has racked up an incredible 600,000 kms on his !

Long after the typical Ford or Chevy has become a p.o.s. they still run ... long after my old Accord gave out, the Beemer still runs ... long live BMW.

I find BMW's current styling troublesome, but their technology is tops - if you have never ridden a Telelever bike, you should - and their brakes are super. If anything, they tend to go to market a little too fast, but someone has to lead ... Honda has always copied - and done it very well.

So ... BMW builds a great machine at an exhorbitant price ... Honda builds a very good machine at a very good price ... :)

PS: the 3-series consistently places tops in comparisons ... the '5' and '7' are simply too expensive for most folks.

[Blue STreak]

If we're talking cars, the current BMW line-up is proof that most people by BMWs for the status, and nothing else. The Bangle-ized bimmers are some of the ugliest cars on the road. The i-drive is ridiculous. Adjusting the heat or the radio is more distracting than a cell phone conversation. I haven't heard of any failures, yet, with BMWs variable valve lift technology, but buyers are spending probably thousands for an unproven technology of limited real world benefit. (It lets BMW eliminate the throttle plate. Wow, I don't ever recall hearing of a throttle plate failure.) Even Car and Driver had mechanical problems with the latest 3 series they tested. If a Chevy gave them as many problems as they've found in Bimmer tests, they'd pan it, but somehow bimmers are special.

BMW (and Mercedes) rank consistently low in JDPower quality surveys these days, and they've both taken serious sales hits in Germany because of poor quality control.

If you're talking bikes, reliable and BMW are two words that used to go hand-in-hand, but I'm not sure they do any more. Lurk around the BMW forums or mailing lists and you'll see horror story after story about failing transmissions and failing rear ends. In the last 2 iron butts new BMWs have failed at a rate far higher than old Hondas (whose bright idea was it to drive the alternator with a belt?). The power brake system, aside from being the answer to a question no one asked, has been written up for multiple failures in several bike magazines (especially MCN--the other mags don't get too critical for fear of losing ad revenue). BMW never admitted to a surge problem with the oil-heads, but eventually came out with the dual plug head to solve the non-existent problem. Of course, if you have a single plug engine, you're out of luck. BMW won't even talk to you about surging. In fact, BMW consistenly denies that any problems exist. Owners have to fight to get BMW to own up to their responsibility to replace defectively designed parts.

I know several guys that ride old BMWs (/6's, mostly). None of them have much good to say about the new ones.

[Horst]

As I said, current BMW styling is ... troublesome :)

Even their bikes ... the new R1200RT is hideous .... UG-LY !

But, I do think that the new K1200S is the best bike on the planet :eek: just not 50% better than evreything else ... hence the problem with pricing ! The K1200S is an ultra-sport yet it still comes with the classy bags and the usual touring comfort BMW owners expect ... very impressive !

The local BMW dealer can't stock them fast enough ! ... people have traded in V-Rods, Vulcans, and Gold Wings to get one.

I remember BMW's 2nd generation M5 ... 400 HP ... 400 ft/lbs of torque ! ... nothing from Japan or N.A. could touch it. In fact, BMW invented both Sport-Touring and the Sport Sedan !

PS: BMW is still the #1 choice for IBA and 'round the world' types
PPS: BMW had surging problems, Honda has VTEC problems also !

And after all that, I still love my ST1100 .... and lust after a VFR :D

[Northern Rob]

Once again, this thread just proves that a man needs several motorcycles in the garage. (That's what I'm telling my wife anyway).

[kingprawnokay]

Horst,

We must not be reading the same road tests of the K1200S.;-) However, we agree about the ugly, and I like ugly bikes.

Here comes a smart-*** comment. You're suggesting that what I need to do to appreciate BMW's quality is buy a brand new 1983 BMW 528e because they got it right that year?:)

I know BMW's have their place in the motorcycling world, but I guess I just hear too much about the problems associated with Beemers to see the upside. Abrupt servo brakes, strange handling, transmissions locked in gear, oil leaks, electical failures, outrageous costs throughout the life of the vehicle. Might as well buy a Buell. They're cheaper and they handle better.

Secondly, while the M5 is very cool (status symbol cool), you could buy one of many rear/4-wheel drive Japanese cars (e.g., new Skylines/350Z's can run well over 600 hp for fairly cheap), or American cars for the price of an M5, tweak the motor and chasis to outperform the M5 and still have change left over (new M5's are $85,000+at the dealer).:eek: The M5 is also a nightmare to maintain. This half backs up your point about BMW building a (marginally) good product at an exorbitant price while Honda, and many other manufacturers build a good product at a reasonable price.

[Horst]

Good comments all around :)

ALL 2nd generation 5-series were good ... no, they were GRRRREAT ! ;)
The original M5 was a 2nd gen 5-series ... the original Sport Sedan.

Since then, there have been some problems ... and the price, geepers :rolleyes:

But Rob says it best ... a man needs 4 bikes ... a tourer, a sport bike, an antique, and a KLR650 ... now that one's UGLY ! :)

[Horst]

"Abrupt servo brakes, strange handling, transmissions locked in gear, oil leaks, electical failures..."

I owned one for a year and still hang with the local BMW club, so here's my take on this .... BRAKES - I loved mine. After 1 week of getting used to them they remain the best brakes I have ever experienced on any vehicle, bar none. The ST's brakes are close ... HANDLING - out of this world, and Honda should borrow the Telelever patent and put it on the ST and others ... TRANNY - not the best, my ST's is WAY better ... REAR ENDS - these have failed, partly because, for example, it's the same rear end on a 500lb Roadster than the 800lb LT ! ... they just replace them ... ELECTRICAL - not from what I've heard.

The main gripe is the high mtce. cost, as has been well documented. For example you just cannot do your own ABS brake fluids - it's too complicated. Surging was a problem, fixed with a Techlusion box ($250). Some vibration on boxers - they are twins after all !

...and Beemer rallies are fun ... I still go, they welcome 'other' bikes :)

...and Buell's do not handle better ... good grief, RIDE ONE !!!

[Bones]

I've been enjoying the Beemer back and forth. Never having owned any BMW I can't speak to the ownership experience. I did take an R1150RT for a test ride and was quite underwhelmed...what a coarse, buzzy motor. Yuck. "Character"? Yeah, right.

I ride with many Beemer dudes and enjoy it. They're skilled motorcyclists (their skills having been honed on 80's and 90's era Japanese bikes), fun to camp with, and have taught me a great deal about the 2-wheeled brotherhood. I'm glad I don't pay to maintain their bikes...ouch.

As for BMW cars, they used to be beautiful, sort of like an Olympic track athlete wearing an Armani suit. Not anymore. The current design direction suffers from too many hard whacks with the ugly stick, and it carries through from model to model. The best looking one of the bunch is the 5 series, and the best you can say about it is that it looks like a 15-year old Maxima.

When I couldn't afford BMWs I really wanted two -- a bike and a car. Now that I can, I wouldn't bother with either.

[Northern Rob]

I've been going back and forth about buying a BMW myself, and due to a sympathetic local BMW dealer I've had the pleasure of demoing most of their product line. A few years ago, I demo'ed the RT 1150 back to back against the ST1100 - and it was no contest. I had the money to buy the RT but I felt the ST was a better bike. I realize that this is somewhat subjective of course... but before the demo I was sure I was going to walk away with the BMW, I liked the look more, the heritage more, and the ergo's more. I WANTED that BMW before the demo and I did the ST demo just to feel complete about the process. The rest is history. ST won.

Now on the other hand, in dual sport land, I don't think the BMW GS 1150 - GS 1200 can be touched. BMW stands head and shoulders over the competition. That bike slaps a grin on my face. And that's why I think its just too painful a choice to own just one bike. Excuse me while I go talk to my banker.

Good luck with your choice - you know, other than perhaps spending a bit too much money (which by the way isn't the worst thing that can happen to you if it gets you to your "happy place"), you just can't lose with your two choices. Do what makes your head happy. After all, if you wanted practical, you'd be buying a used mini van or a Honda Civic, or something. Just manage your head for maximum fun!

[Blue STreak]

As I said, current BMW styling is ... troublesome :)



The local BMW dealer can't stock them fast enough ! ... people have traded in V-Rods, Vulcans, and Gold Wings to get one.



Yup. And when the trannys and rear ends start self-destruting, they'll be trading back as fast as they can.


PS: BMW is still the #1 choice for IBA and 'round the world' types
PPS: BMW had surging problems, Honda has VTEC problems also !


Have you read the reports of the last two IBRs? The last IBR was won on a Honda. BMWs droped like flies due to alternator drive belt failures, tranny failures, and rear-end problems. Hell, an ST1100 with 200,000 miles on it finished, while a bunch of virtually new BMWs crapped out. If the failure rate of BMW's continues, BMWs won't be the choice of IBA riders much longer.

While Honda's certainly not perfect, they seem to do a better job of addressing the problems with their bikes.

[Blue STreak]

How correct you are! I parked next to a new 1200 BMW on my Death Valley trip this summer. As the owner was standing next to his bike, I asked him how he liked his bike. He acted like he was too good to even answer my question. I'm sure he looked at my ST and turned up his nose. I have NO time for people like that

BTDT. I took my 13 year old son to a party this summer. Noticed a BMW LT in the garage, so I asked the dad about it. He was real friendly. When I told him I rode an ST1100 he suddenly lost all interest in me. I thought it funny, and kind of sad.

[Horst]

"According to the newest data from Consumer Reports, Nissan Motor's full-size Infiniti QX sport utility vehicle has the worst ratings possible for the reliability of its electrical system, brakes, body integrity, power equipment and body hardware. It is 300% less reliable than the average car..."

HA HA ... others among the 10 worst are HUMMERS and KIA and even Audi ... not a BMW in sight.

About IBA - you guys need a reality check here: the top ten finishers in the IBA from time immemorial have always been BMW's ... and that guy with the rear end no doubt got it replaced. Check the standings, man - some of you need to get off the front porch once in a while ;)

Rob - the BMW dealer on 4th Ave is a great guy and I wouldn't hesitate dealing with him ... you're right about the GS bikes ... besides they do deal in 'other' makes too and Carter Honda is just down the road :)

[kingprawnokay]

Horst,

I'm just saying that the times, they are a-changing. For BMW, it seems to me that they are changing for the worse. BMW may still have a few gems (e.g.,3-series sedan, R1200GS) but their overall line-up of bikes and automobiles is suffering.

BMW's are over-represented in the IBR circle which makes it even more amazing that a BMW didn't win this year. A Honda won against the odds. The past doesn't matter anymore. People easily forget the accomplishments of the past years. The future will determine the fate of BMW (and all other brands). A company can only rest on their laurels for so long before the bottom falls out. These days, too many companies produce reliable bikes and cars that perform really well and require very little maintenance.

The biggest threat to BMW is that people talk, and customer loyalty will diminish as more and more riders become frustrated with the lumpy, high-maintenance, high-cost bavarian machines. It doesn't matter to me that BMW replaced the broken drivelines and transmission, it matters that the parts broke in the first place. My service manager told me to stay away from BMW because he works on them day in and day out.

Unfortunately, unless quality control is improved, word will get around. Words hurt companies more than actual mechanical failures.

The revolution will occur when the Beemer riders collectively decide that a bike can perform well and not break down without losing "character".

The brand name included in all of the ideas listed above could easily be changed. This could be Honda in a few years. Who knows? The corpus of information I have absorbed from riding, reading, dealing, and discussing with other riders and service managers suggests that BMW's current product line is not representative of their best work. That may change in the future.

[Bones]

Best and Worst in Reliability 2005
ConsumerReports.org

Japanese imports earned most of the top reliability honors, while European models scored well below average in this Consumer Reports study.

Japanese cars dominated the survey with 29 of 31 cars earning a top rating. Of these 29, fifteen came from Toyota and Lexus.
Most of the worst sedans in Consumer Reports' ranking come from Europe, including this BMW 5-Series V8. [photo]
Of the 48 cars that earned the lowest rating, 22 carry American nameplates, 20 are European, 4 are from Japan (all from Nissan and its Infiniti division), and 2 are from South Korea.
Some European models, which have had poor reliability in our previous surveys, improved slightly. The six-cylinder BMW X5 and X3, for example, earned average Ratings and are now the first European SUVs reliable enough to be recommended. However, most European models still scored far below average.
Included among the "Least Reliable" are three BMWs: BMW 5-Series (V8), BMW 7 series, BMW X5 (V8)
Included among the "Most Reliable" were nine Hondas: Honda Civic, Honda Civic Hybrid, Honda S2000, Honda Accord, Honda Accord Hybrid, Honda CR-V, Honda Element, and Honda Ridgeline.

[See http://autos.msn.com/advice/CRArt.aspx?contentid=4023544]

[Horst]

I'm going to post my last one on this thread so here goes -

My 27-year-old friend says 'the past doesn't matter anymore' ... hmm, when you get to 47 or 67 you may change your mind about that !

Some of you have made much out of the fact the IBA was won by Honda this year (in an ocean of BMW's) and that the leader lost it due to a rear end failure (again an anomaly) ... this is not the scientific method, people !

The magazines I read have consistently rated the K1200S tops and just now I see that several BMW's have won top honours again ! ... K1200S included and R1200ST which I also rode and was impressed with.

And lastly, some of you comment of stuff you know nothing about ... never ridden them, never experienced first hand ... some of you really need to get off the porch. A Buell handles better than a BMW ??? what are you smoking ?

and now I'll stop before I start feeling too old ... good night :)

[2005c6]

I'm going to post my last one on this thread so here goes -

My 27-year-old friend says 'the past doesn't matter anymore' ... hmm, when you get to 47 or 67 you may change your mind about that !

Some of you have made much out of the fact the IBA was won by Honda this year (in an ocean of BMW's) and that the leader lost it due to a rear end failure (again an anomaly) ... this is not the scientific method, people !

The magazines I read have consistently rated the K1200S tops and just now I see that several BMW's have won top honours again ! ... K1200S included and R1200ST which I also rode and was impressed with.

And lastly, some of you comment of stuff you know nothing about ... never ridden them, never experienced first hand ... some of you really need to get off the porch. A Buell handles better than a BMW ??? what are you smoking ?

and now I'll stop before I start feeling too old ... good night :)

Interesting debate. I'm not going to say this or that is better than the other, but I would like to comment on something you said. You say the magazines rate BMW's in general very high. But they don't live with them for very long.

They also have some pretty funny ways of rating bikes. For instance, one major magazine (sorry, I don't remember the one) rated the BMW K1200R as the top bike of the year. But they only rated it second in the Naked bike category (to a Triumph Speed Triple). Someone called them out on that in the next issue, and they had a lame excuse for how they can rate it second in it's class, but first overall. That is bullsh!t journalism and causes them to lose a lot of credibility.

[kingprawnokay]

My point was if you get too caught up in the past as a manufacturer, or fail to take notice of what else is happening in the industry, you'll miss what's going on right now. Harley Davidson is the only true exception to this rule as their sales increase every year without any real change in product line (this is a whole other subject). In the meantime, companies like Yamaha, Honda, Suzuki, and Kawasaki are raising the bar by lightening engine internals, improving frame design, centralizing mass, maximizing fueling, and doing it all of this while producing bikes with a fit and finish that is unsurpassed.

This next bit was just for fun so don't take it too seriously. It's old news and I've probably made errors, but I became curious and had some fun looking at the IBR numbers. First off, it has been stated by wiser men than I that the Iron Butt Rally says more about the rider than the bike. Horst, half of the bikes in this year's rally were BMW's. That's why it is so amazing that a Honda won, even with odds of nearly 4 to 1 against. The 45 non-German bikes represented 8 brands (Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Triumph, Vespa, Harley, Boss Hoss).

I've listed the manufacturers by the percentage of bikes that finished.

Boss Hoss didn't finish, he was late in leg 1.
1 out of 2 Harleys finished (50%). Rider was late.
5 out of 8 Suzuki's finished (63%) 1 rider was late. No info.
35 out of 45 (77%) BMW's finished. (at least 4 mechanical failures)
17 out of 19 Honda's finished (89%) 1 rider late, 1 rider had broken wheel.
11 out of 12 Yamahas finished (92%) No info.
1 out of 1 Kawasaki finished (100%)
1 out of 1 Triumph finished (100%)
1 out of 1 Vespa (100%)

The numbers above suggest that riders were more likely to finish if they rode a Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Triumph or Vespa. The best part is that 100% of the ST's finished!

Overall, 85% of the Japanese bikes and 77% of the BMW's finished (The Suzuki riders tanked the results).

BMW was matched in representation by Honda and Yamaha in the top 20 (10 Beemers, 8 Hondas, 2 Yamahas).

My last word will be to defend Buell. It seems a lot of people haven't noticed that Buell has made new models since the strange, ungainly Westwinds, Thunderbolts, and Cyclone's of the '80's and early '90's. The new bikes handle superbly (the exception is probably the Ulysses, a huge mistake in my opinion). I seriously considered an XB12R Firebolt when I bought my Z1000. Unfortunately, the reliability was suspect. Interestingly enough, this is the same reason my wife and I bought a Honda instead of a BMW. I probably would have killed myself on the Buell anyway. They are naughty.

I'm not alone in my assessment of Buell. Bike magazine (the epitome of motorcycling journalism IMHO; Motorcyclist is a close second) named the Buell XB12R Firebolt the "best cornering bike ever".

So you can all scoff at my love of Buell's, that is until the day comes when you're riding briskly through some twisties and someone zooms past you on their XB12R Firebolt like you were standing still. Buell's reliability is improving.

Hope this was a good read. I undoubtedly made some errors (not the Buell part).

[GRN]

Several comments in reply to some of the previous:

I share many of same sentiments already presented by Mr. Bones (even if he is from Mass ;) ). I also had an experience similar to Rob... when I got rid of my ST11 I was sure the next bike would be the 1150RT or K12GT. That was last year, and neither did much for me in comparison to 91 ST11? Mmmmm... back to the drawing board, hello ST13, no contest.

2005c6, "BS journalism"... coming from a heritage of true journalists that extends back to the late 1800's, I have to argue differently. In economically developed countries on this planet, true journalism is a scarce animal. Most major media sources in this and many countries are part of the capitolist machine, shared financial interest in outside influence..... many, many reasons, but I'll stop here. It's sickening really. Anyone who sells ads is suspect, period.

As far as the bikes go... have had a bunch of Honda's, have put a whole bunch of hard miles on them without any problems, and have yet to ride anything I like better. I couldn't care less what the IBA stat's or a bike mag say.

Kevin, nice avatar... at least Clinton stayed in species eh?

[kingprawnokay]

Kevin, nice avatar... at least Clinton stayed in species eh?

LOL! I call this photo, "Bush's Gobbler".:D

[Bones]

For instance, one major magazine (sorry, I don't remember the one) rated the BMW K1200R as the top bike of the year. But they only rated it second in the Naked bike category (to a Triumph Speed Triple). Someone called them out on that in the next issue, and they had a lame excuse for how they can rate it second in it's class, but first overall. That is bullsh!t journalism and causes them to lose a lot of credibility.

For-profit motoring magazines (cars, bikes, trucks) typically limit "of the year" competitions to models introduced in the year in question. I stopped paying attention when I realized my Tundra was "Truck of the Year" in 2000, and then in every subsequent year whichever truck model was introduced that year was named "Truck of the Year." It's the same practice that led such automotive gems as the Ford Maverick to be named Motor Trend Car of the Year. To its credit, Car and Driver opens its "10 Best" competition to any production models.

The K1200R likely was named "Bike of the Year" because it was the "most significant" bike (or some such rot) because it was a lateral, inline, 4-cylinder Beemer. If Harley introduced a liquid cooled V4, I bet it would be bike of the year for that reason alone. The magazines can define their competition however they like; reader beware.

I'm not coming to the rescue of the magazines (full disclosure: I've made some dough from bike mags writing tour features), just noting a business practice.

Just as politicians who accept contributions should be suspect, so should publications whose business is accepting ad revenues from manufacturers whose products they test. Consumer Reports and Motorcycle Consumer News earn my respect and my subscription dollars in large measure because they are not beholden to ad revenues. Commercial magazines may claim to be "independent" but as soon as they accept ad dollars it's hard for them to pass the smell test.

[AZJEFF]

I have an '03 1300 and would buy an '06 just to have, if it was RED!!!!.
Out on the highways of the Southwest where help on the road and, thus reliability, could be the difference between life and life-inside-a-vulture, the ST Romps and STomps all over cagers (what bike doesn't besides a CT70) and most OEM bikes of ANY make (Sure, I got passed by a friggin H-D'er doing 140 miles/hr with his lady on the back out in Nevada, but this sucker was trick, NOT OEM H-D). At 120 miles/hr who cares what emblem is on your tank and nose-piece; nobody can see it. The ST1300 delivers dangerously high levels of fun while "playing" in traffic running from sea level to 6000' and back. It begs to go above 80 miles/hr. For $13,000 +/-, what better example of form following function, Japanese, German, Pennsylvania Iron or Bultaco. Whoever comes up with a better ST will get my money next. Right now, for better or for worse, it happens to be Honda.

My decision to buy the 1300 was based on two factors:

1.) I liked my 3 ST1100's. All of which brought me cross-country and back w/o a hiccup, except tire changes and
2.) I have so many damn 1100 "special tools" (steering stem socket, shims, nuts, bolts, light bulbs, powerlets, tires, gear oil, experience caring for an ST, articles, papers, service manuals, bulletins) that work just fine for the 1300. The deal was already done on those two points alone.
HAGO,
Jeff

[kingprawnokay]

BMW just updated their site (much nicer than Honda's). The new K1200GT is on the site now. It's spendy: $18,800 base price.

www.bmwmotorcycles.com/bikes/bike.jsp?b=k1200gt

[MikeP1300]

This is one of the major reasons I didn't go bimmer. Out of my tax bracket.
http://www.bobsbmw.com/parts_accessories/ergonomics/Foot-pegs.html

350 bacon cheeseburgers, shheeeitt! :eek:

[Towjam]

It may look good on paper, but the new K-bike tranny has already proven to be unreliable. Two magazines have had problems during testing (Bike, Two Wheels Only). The tranny failed completely during the BIKE test.One might attribute this to the fact that the new K-series bikes are BMW's first foray into trannys with wet multiplate clutches. But that's just a theory on my part... I will say that the 2 beemers I've previously owned had slick shifting transmissions - but both were dry clutch.

[beemerman2k]

I enjoyed reading this thread (I haven't finished reading every post yet). As a BMW rider, I get a kick out of how I'm viewed by others in the riding community.

I think what colors all of our perspectives is the fact that we bond with our bikes. I have owned my RT for over 5 years and in that time I have racked up 85K miles. I love my RT; it's a great bike for what I want in a motorcycle: all day comfort (with a custom made saddle, Russell Day-Long), good reliability, cheap to maintain. At 70K, my input shaft went. That's the only time I had to spend good money on this bike ($1500). I do all my own work outside of that and its pretty cheap and easy to do -- if and when I do it :rolleyes:.

Having said all that, would I buy another? No. BMW has not impressed me with their concern for and support of their consumers. The latest line of motorcycles are light years ahead of my 2000 R1100RT, but I won't buy one because if I have a problem with it, I know that BMW will do everything it can -- including nothing at all -- NOT to own up to their responsibilities. For the record, they don't surge, they don't burn oil when you turn them on, and it's too early to tell if they have drive train problems or not.

To me, the most important "feature" any touring bike must offer is CONFIDENCE. If you aren't confident your bike won't leave you stranded, then you won't take that trip across the dessert that everyone else is going on. If you aren't confident in the workmanship of the manufacturer, you'll think twice before you take that long trip with your wife on board. Being stranded by yourself is bad, but being stranded with your wife -- endangering her to the elements -- is unacceptable.

My next bike has to give me CONFIDENCE in its reliability. I have to be able to plan a trip and take for granted that the bike will get me there and back.

Now, I feel I know my bike by now to know when it's "sick". Even when the input shaft went, it gave me 10K notice that not all was right down there. I could tell when I shifted gears that something was amiss, but I underestimated the significance of the problem so I didn't take it to a mechanic in time. So I have to take some of the blame for that. But at 70K, a $16K BMW motorcycle should not be dumping its drivetrain.

On paper, I am wild about the new K1200S, R, and GT. But I won't stake my riding future on one. As a second bike? Sure. As my main mount? No way.

[Mark]

Beemerman2k,

You say it wasn't expensive to maintain; but, I've heard they are expensive to maintain... then you say you do you own wrenching.
Did you stay with dealer maintanance until you went off warranty and then when to doing the work yourself?

So was the warranty work expensive; but, the cost dropped after the warranty expired?

I'm not really throwing rocks at BMWs, I just can't reconcile your post with what I have heard about maintance cost of BMW motorcycles.

Mark

[Towjam]

I enjoyed reading this thread (I haven't finished reading every post yet). As a BMW rider, I get a kick out of how I'm viewed by others in the riding community.Beemerman2k,
Good to see another BMWST'er on the board. Nice to see a familiar face. :-)

[beemerman2k]

For the first couple of years I owned my RT, I used to have my dealer service it more or less every 6K miles, which when living in Massachusetts, turned out to be twice a year. I don't recall how much the cost was, but I don't remember it being anything out of the ordinary. For those on this forum from the area, and there seem to be a few, I bought my bike at AJ's Cycle on Route 2 in Gill, MA. Excellent dealer I might add.

After hanging out with other BMW riders in the Yankee Beemers club, I learned that maintenance was a very simple affair with these bikes. I spend a day learning how to adjust my valves (got it grossly wrong first time!), synchronizing my throttle bodies using an $80 tool called a Twinmax, bleeding the ABS brakes (which are non-linked, non-servo assisted on pre-1150 models), and so on (oil changes, fuel filter changes, etc). After doing this myself a few times, I realized my valves never needed adjustment and the throttle bodies rarely needed any attention. So now, I don't even think about changing the synthetic oil until at least 10K miles have transpired, and I don't even think about the valves and throttle bodies for at least 20-25K. I just serviced the bike a couple of weeks ago after about 20K and the valves were spot on and so were the throttle bodies.

I think when a bike is relatively new, it needs attention as you learn to fine tune it. After a while though, the engine sets in and it isn't going to change very much. From what I hear, the new BMW's are much more difficult for an owner to service with all the servo brakes and fancier fuel injection system.

I spend about $500/year on maintenance including having new tires mounted. Every year I have all cables replaced (speedo, clutch, etc) because of horror stories I heard about them braking in the middle of nowhere. I have my alternator belt replaced while they're at it, I have new tires put on the bike (Michelin Pilot Roads, baby!), and that's it. I don't bother with these items because I don't have the time or the tools to be bothered, so I go to RPM Cycles in Ventura, CA and let them do it for me while I walk over to Barnes & Noble to read about motorcycles!

That input shaft episode, along with horror stories I hear about the final drive unit (I'm still on my original), have hurt my confidence in the brand. I consistently hear about these units failing on pre-1200cc boxer and pre-new K1200 motors. I am planning a personal ss1k up to Seattle, WA this spring and I'm hoping I don't get any drive train issues while I'm on the road. I've ridden my bike all over the country and it has never left me stranded, but when my input shaft went, I got no warning and I almost got killed on the 5 freeway here in LA. No power and I'm in the passing lane at 10PM with cars whizzing by me and I can't do a damn thing except put on my emergency flashers and pray! That's not fun to experience and yes, that hurt my confidence in the marque.

My disappointment about the Honda are 2 fold: I promised myself that my RT would be the heaviest bike I'd ever own, and I HATE linked brakes! I was kinda' treading water hoping BMW would release a line of bikes without all the linked/servo stuff, or at least give the rider the option of turning it off. I like the brakes I have on my RT; ABS, non-linked, no servo's.

Anyhow, I am reserving judgement on the ST until I get a chance to ride one. I do look forward to sampling the bike.

Oh, one more thing, there are BMW snobs no doubt, but what turned me on was that the riders I met in the Yankee Beemers club welcomed me in when all I owned was an old '78 Suzuki GS1000. They didn't care and accorded me as much status and respect as anyone else. We bond with our bikes and forget that other bikes are good in the process; had I bought a Harley that served me as well, I'd be defending Harley's right now. Just because our bike is good does not mean another isn't; they're all good.