Why change oil before 600 miles?

[norton]

If mother Honda built it, and warrants it for three years, and assuming there is NO verified proof, test, report, etc... that shows that an engine "lasts" any longer --then why do it? Is the answer "something to do" , "because I always do it on my new bikes" or "works for me"?
Also, does Honda have a problem with full synthetic engine oil being put in at the 600 mile change, ok providing it is Honda synthetic?
Norton, got order in for 06 ST1300abs, can't wait !!!!!!! BLACK !!!!!!!!!!

[Tor]

It's a personal thing, peace of mind thing, does it do any good? Maybe,,,,maybe not,,,It's just like having a scratch somewhere on your bike (I don't) that noone can see, but YOU know it's there. BTW I also changed at 100 / 600. Axle and angine. Now I feel good ;-)

[tricky_micky]

I know I have seen posts about this before.

But you guys mention a 3 year Honda warranty over there in the US. I have checked and they only do the warranty for 2 years over here in the UK unless I have missed some small print.

If this is the case, which I know it is from previous posts, you guys have it made. I am going to chase this one up with my local dealer and ask WHY should there be any difference in the warranty on a new ST1300 between the US and the UK.

Sorry it was off topic a little, but if the warranty is in place, you have to go with the dealer that can stamp the warranty book, and he has to be authorised by Honda. If the book tells you to have the 600 service, you have to go with it and get the book stamped. If not, you could lose the warranty!

Mick

[JReviere]

Mick,

US law forbids a mfgr from imposing the kinds of restrictions you detail. Here, mfgrs are not allowed to stipulate what brands of any products are required to maintain the warranty such as their own brand of oil etc. Here one may, if one wishes, do ALL the maintenance oneself without voiding the warranty. It is a good idea to keep records such as receipt to show the actual purchase of the consumable items used in your maintenance efforts during the warranty period. But if you have a good relationship with a dealer, one who will take your position in dealing with Honda on warranty issues, even though you have no receipts etc. your warranty remains in effect. I personally keep a "log book" showing what was done, when, what was found, what was inspected and found "OK" etc. as well as what consumables were used. I don't keep receipts. I just log entries, date and sign. I've never had anyone question me on warranty issues ever when shown the log book. (complete with greasy hand/finger prints on the pages). When the warranty period expires, I do not stop this process either. I have the record available when it comes time to sell the unit and I believe those log entries help me get a better price.
JR
STOC 394
03ST1300A

[STeve1300]

JR, keep those recipts! Then again, with a face like Terri Hatcher, you probably get serviced for free. :rolleyes:

[Bobby Lee]

Honda, at least the dealers I have experience with, say don't use syn. until after 4000 miles.

[ligito]

I changed at 22, 350 etc., 'cause I like to get the metal particles out as soon as possible.

[GodFather]

The first oil change cleans out all the possible metal shavings from all the moving parts of the engine as it starts "seating" into its "normal" movement. Or something like that. :)

OR peace of mind. :04biker:

[tricky_micky]

Mick,

US law forbids a mfgr from imposing the kinds of restrictions you detail. Here, mfgrs are not allowed to stipulate what brands of any products are required to maintain the warranty such as their own brand of oil etc. Here one may, if one wishes, do ALL the maintenance oneself without voiding the warranty. It is a good idea to keep records such as receipt to show the actual purchase of the consumable items used in your maintenance efforts during the warranty period. But if you have a good relationship with a dealer, one who will take your position in dealing with Honda on warranty issues, even though you have no receipts etc. your warranty remains in effect. I personally keep a "log book" showing what was done, when, what was found, what was inspected and found "OK" etc. as well as what consumables were used. I don't keep receipts. I just log entries, date and sign. I've never had anyone question me on warranty issues ever when shown the log book. (complete with greasy hand/finger prints on the pages). When the warranty period expires, I do not stop this process either. I have the record available when it comes time to sell the unit and I believe those log entries help me get a better price.
JR
STOC 394
03ST1300A

JR

Whilst I appreciate what you say in your post, and I agree with what you say. However, over here, with the dealer I use, if something goes wrong on the bike during warranty, they will ask for the warranty book. I know the defect will possibly be nothing to do with the servicing but it backs up any claim to prove that the bike has been properly serviced and checked etc.

I am more thoughful on the difference between the two year warranty we have and the 3 year warranty you guys get on your machines. I am about to contact the dealer to see if I have got it wrong!

Thanks for the reply and best seasons wishes.

Mick

[gilles]

We have too a transferable three-year, unlimited-mileage limited warranty in Canada

[tricky_micky]

We have too a transferable three-year, unlimited-mileage limited warranty in Canada

I have just come off the phone with the dealer, and it is definitly only a two year warranty in the UK.

After asking why the difference between the UK and US, I was told, That is Honda UK for you!

Mick

[Medicine Bear]

I have just come off the phone with the dealer, and it is definitly only a two year warranty in the UK.

After asking why the difference between the UK and US, I was told, That is Honda UK for you!

Mick

Well, Mick, if your bike should break bring it over here and we'll see if we can get it covered under the three year warranty. You can stay here and I'll show you how abysmally bad Guinness Stout gets after it crosses the ocean and gets put in a can. :eek:

Seriously, there should be no reason why our warranties are different. That just sucks. Are you able to pay for an extended warranty and, if so, how do the prices compare to ours?

Fred :03biker:

[wjbertrand]

Mick,

US law forbids a mfgr from imposing the kinds of restrictions you detail. Here, mfgrs are not allowed to stipulate what brands of any products are required to maintain the warranty such as their own brand of oil etc. Here one may, if one wishes, do ALL the maintenance oneself without voiding the warranty. It is a good idea to keep records such as receipt to show the actual purchase of the consumable items used in your maintenance efforts during the warranty period. But if you have a good relationship with a dealer, one who will take your position in dealing with Honda on warranty issues, even though you have no receipts etc. your warranty remains in effect. I personally keep a "log book" showing what was done, when, what was found, what was inspected and found "OK" etc. as well as what consumables were used. I don't keep receipts. I just log entries, date and sign. I've never had anyone question me on warranty issues ever when shown the log book. (complete with greasy hand/finger prints on the pages). When the warranty period expires, I do not stop this process either. I have the record available when it comes time to sell the unit and I believe those log entries help me get a better price.
JR
STOC 394
03ST1300A

I keep all maintenance and farkle history on an Excel spread sheet. It made a big impression on the buyer of my 150K ST1100. His wife had misgivings about the high mileage until he showed her a copy of the spread sheet. Another good reason to do it

[tricky_micky]

Fred

I have spoken to my local dealer and he tells me that I am unable to extend the 2 year warranty on the bike.

Yes, they are helpful and understanding with me, and he would back me up with any problems, however, any problems outside of the warranty, that's it, we have to pay.

This is why when I read some of the guys posts, and they are doing valve jobs at 16K and the bike still being in warranty, if you did that over here and something went wrong, you will get a very large bill if the dealer repaired the problem as you have broken the warranty, and they would laugh at any spread sheet or service chart you produced. I do not mean that nastily against you guys as I am learning so much from you.

That is how it is over here and we have to 'Lump' it.

BTW
As long as the Guiness is cold, it will do for me LOL

Mick

[Mark]

Fred
BTW
As long as the Guiness is cold, it will do for me LOL
Mick

Cold Guinness? What a horrible thought...

Mark

[tricky_micky]

Cold Guinness? What a horrible thought...

Mark


Mark

That is the way it should be drunk, nice and cold on a warm evening, boootiful

Mick

[Mark]

Mark

That is the way it should be drunk, nice and cold on a warm evening, boootiful

Mick

As long as you think 50F (10C) is cold I will agree...
Just in case: I think I'll go have a cask-conditioned oatmeal stout at the local microbrewery...

Mark

[tricky_micky]

Mark

Going off the thread a little.

Friend of mine in Texas asks what I would drink on a hot breezy evening. I told him to try a half pint of Sella Artois, cold of course, and top it up with some cider. It is a very refreshing drink, but is very potent.

Next day we talked very quietly...."Mick you bas&*r! I tried your suggestion. Could not find Stella Artois over here so tried another US equivalent and topped it up with some 'Bulmers Cider' What a ba*s")rd you are, I am still trying to catch my head up as it is so far in front of me"!

Coool, that is what we call over here a 'Snakebite' it is so refreshing you want another Tee Hee. Beats Guiness any day for me.

Mick

[georgeorge]

Here's another reason to change oil early. I have the two right side cams out right now waiting for a valve shim and I noticed that there are NO cam bearings. That's right...none. The cam rides between the head itself and the caps. So if you were to get any scoring of that surface that might need replacing, It means replacing the entire head, not just the bearings. I'm not sure if the crankshaft has the same situation or not.....God I hope not. Anyway, Leaving dirty oil in can do damage and changing to clean oil Can't do damage. That's reason enough for me. I use Synthetic and I change at 3000-4000mile intervals even though the manual states I can go 8000 on dino oil.

[dond]

The engines are assembled by workers wearing cotton gloves. In the old days of centrifugal filters it was common to find lint in the filter. Also there are several areas that assembly lubes are used, assembly lube is generally a high solid content lube, it will do no harm but most of these lubes are much darker and will darken the oil very quickly. There is also the initial metal to metal contact that will leave fine particles suspended in the oil.
On the early introduction of synthetic oil you will not get the same answer from two people. There is the go from the start camp and the run it several thousand miles camp.
I believe 600 miles is a little early myself.

Paul
It's nice to hear of someone else that remembers those centrifugal "filters" I have seen some alarmingly large chunks in them!
I changed to M1 synthetic at 500 miles and every 5k (unless on a long trip) thereafter.

[FL-STRIDER]

I did my first oil change at about 125 miles. I couldn't believe the amount of metal shavings that had settled to the bottom of my oil drain pan. I was surprized to see how much stuff the stock oil filter was letting through too. I switched over to the Purolator Pure ONE (PL14610) as the HONDA filter didn't impress me one bit. I changed my oil again at 600 miles and I must say much less metal shavings second time around. I'm not sure what impact this will have on the engines longevity. However from my stand point I just feel better knowing that I'm doing my part in helping it along. I switched over to Synthetic oil at 4000 miles. I also change the drive shaft oil with every oil change too.

[Burger]

However, over here, with the dealer I use, if something goes wrong on the bike during warranty, they will ask for the warranty book. I know the defect will possibly be nothing to do with the servicing but it backs up any claim to prove that the bike has been properly serviced and checked etc.

and

if you did that over here and something went wrong, you will get a very large bill if the dealer repaired the problem as you have broken the warranty, and they would laugh at any spread sheet or service chart you produced.

Mick,

sorry, but I am 100% certain you are mistaken or have simply fallen for the absolute twaddle that manufacturers and dealers want you to believe. This has been tried many times in the courts and I can assure you it is illegal in the UK for any manufacurer or supplier to impose a conditional guarantee. The burden of proof in the event of damage is on the supplier and not the consumer to prove that the damage was caused through negligence. This is true when the item in question is a serviceable item. Say for example you broke a sealed beam headlamp unit and the dealer could prove you broke it, then it is not covered under the guarantee. Your bike however is made from a collection of serviceable items and you absolutely do not and cannot void your warranty by carrying out work on it yourself.

This has also been tried and tested in the PC market as well as motor vehicles where some PC suppliers have claimed that if you open the PC case your warranty is void. WRONG!. If you break the graphics card, and they can prove it, then the warranty on the graphics card is voided, not the whole PC. The same principles apply to all items.

FWIW, my dealer, unlike yours it seems, confirmed this for me when I argued the point with them on purchasing my ST earlier this year.

I don't know the exact date the law changed to this effect, but it was at least 10 years ago. I am so certain of these facts I will gladly source evidence to support it if you wish or need it.

Regards,

[tricky_micky]

Mick,

Say for example you broke a sealed beam headlamp unit and the dealer could prove you broke it, then it is not covered under the guarantee. Your bike however is made from a collection of serviceable items and you absolutely do not and cannot void your warranty by carrying out work on it yourself.

Regards,

Is what I am trying to say! You broke the headlamp unit, then it will not be covered under warranty beacause YOU broke it, so why should Honda cover that unit.

I am looking in a larger aspect. If you do say a 16k service and mess about with the valve clearances. Next day the engine goes toes up for some reason. Dealer will be very reluctant to pay out because it could have been something that you did when doing the clearances.

Think about what our friends in the US are doing whilst the bike is still under warranty, they do so much, I do not think any Honda dealer in the UK would back you up if something went wrong and you explained, well, I have just checked the clearances of the valves etc and adjusted them!

I think the fight would be 'Game On'!

Mick

[Don-STOC237]

I keep all maintenance and farkle history on an Excel spread sheet. It made a big impression on the buyer of my 150K ST1100. His wife had misgivings about the high mileage until he showed her a copy of the spread sheet. Another good reason to do it

Reminder to self: Be sure to make up an excel spreadsheet before putting bike up for sale. :D

[dond]

Reminder to self: Be sure to make up an excel spreadsheet before putting bike up for sale. :D
I sold a Valk with 85K on it. My service records and the ext warranty were the deal clincher. I sold the bike for just under what I paid for it new. Well worth the effort 8-)

[sherob]

You can stay here and I'll show you how abysmally bad Guinness Stout gets after it crosses the ocean and gets put in a can. :eek:
Fred :03biker:

That beer in the can is very fresh... it has that awesome nitrogen widget in it too for that nice frothy 3 finger head... per UK law :D

[yoitsmatt!]

back to the original question, im a master mechanic and have been for 20 years, as a new engine breaks in lots of small metal particles are polished off and float in the oil, so the 600 mile service is nessasary to remove these as soon as possible that is also the reason limits are put on the rpm level a new engins shold be runn up to until break in is completed, on my race bikes i used to change the oil every ride until it stopped turning dark, then every other race, and i have never had an internal engine problem, on my new 05 st1300 i ran mine to the 600 mile mark and then went to mobil 1, there is some argument about first oil change but here is my 2 cents, first if you are changing before the 600 mile mark i wouldnt go to synthetic , i would use a good regular oil until the engine break in is complete (i.e. 600 miles) then change to synthetic if that is what you want to do, i ran mine easy until the first change then changed to mobil 1 , i will change again at 2000 and probably at 4000 and get on the recommended shedule after that, the oil was dark at 600 miles and some metal but not an excessive amount, but all my riding was short trips and low revs, had i gone on a long trip or on the highway for a coulple hours at high speed then i probably would have changed mine sooner also, oil is cheap compared to engine parts, and id rather ride it than work on it!

[Medicine Bear]

That beer in the can is very fresh... it has that awesome nitrogen widget in it too for that nice frothy 3 finger head... per UK law :D
Yeah, but it still tastes way off compared to tap. And in the UK, it tastes better out of the tap than ours IMHO.:(

I feel the same way about Young's Double Chocolate.

Fred :03biker:

[nisbeam]

I do all my own servicing & keep receipts etc as proof. I update the service book with details & sign & date. I think this proof would only be needed on servicable items anyway, e.g. if there is a problem with the windscreen motor it would be a warranty issue no question. Regarding the servicing I object to getting ripped off for interrim services which are mostly just check & adjust - I do all that every week enyway. I also prefer to do oil changes every 4k miles rather than the extended period that Honda recommend Checking the valve clearances is easy to do & I would begrudge paying £2-300 for something so simple. I have just done 36k miles in my first year. The bike is running better than ever & I have saved a packet & had great fun working on the bike at the same time. By the way I changed to fully synth at 16k miles. A friend had an ST1100 that burned oil due to being run in with fully synth - the bores had become glazed & it needed a re-bore to cure the problem. :cool: :03biker:

[Burger]

Think about what our friends in the US are doing whilst the bike is still under warranty, they do so much, I do not think any Honda dealer in the UK would back you up if something went wrong and you explained, well, I have just checked the clearances of the valves etc and adjusted them!

I think the fight would be 'Game On'!

If the manufacturer has made available to you, which Honda do, the instructions on how to adjust the valve clearances then they are legally bound to honour the warranty unless they can prove, beyond any doubt, that you caused the subsequent damage. It is highly unlikely they could ever do so. I agree it would be 'Game On', but you stand far more chance of winning than losing. Our colleagues in the US are in no different position that us in this respect.

Now, put this together with the fact that I have witnessed, first hand, the diabolical and life threatenning skills of a supposed highly trained Honda mechanic who couldn't spot a wrongly fitted front axle despite spending 2 hours inspecting the front wheel. I wouldn't let them anywhere near my valve clearances or any other part of the bike for that matter. I doubt they could even do an oil change properly.

I am perfectly within my rights to undertake all work on my bike myself and it has no effect whatsoever on my warranty. In your example where the valve clearances have been adjusted and then within a few days there is a catastrophic failure of the engine then Honda wouldn't cover the dealer for that any more than they would you if they could prove it was the adjustment that caused the problem.

So, perhaps what you're saying is that you prefer the 'insurance' of the dealer doing the work on your bike, so that they have to pay for any mistake they make, whereas I far prefer the 'insurance' of working on my own bike so that I know the job has been done properly.

Could I make a mistake that leads to a catasrophic failure? Possibly, but it's much less likely that many dealers doing the same simply because I care.

Best Regards,

[crazykz]

I had the dealer change my oil the day I picked it up but after I rode it about 25 miles to do that controversial breakin procedure. So it was changed with about 50 miles on it. Some idiot mechanic rode it to compare the odometer against another bike Grrrrrr.:mad:

Then I changed it at 600, 1000, 4000, and every 4000 after that.

The dealer said that they have had other people request this oil change on their pick up day. I think it puzzles them a little bit but to me it doesn't hurt. You can debate how much it helps but for me I know that I'm doing everything I know to protect the bike. Now that I do all my own maintenance I don't want an argument in any way, shape, or form when it comes to asking if I have been maintaining the bike. I also want to make sure that I extend the life of my bike as long as possible.

To me it's a personal choice when to change the oil. Honestly one extra oil change beyond the manfacturers recommendation isn't a big expense and if there's a change it helps then I'm willing to spend the $20-$40 to have it done.

Curt

[norton]

I wish to thank everyone for their comments on changing oil before Honda recommends it be changed. I found it interesting that no one could cite any study or test showing a link between engine longevity and one extra oil change prior to 600 miles, yet some still chose to waste their money and time. In fact, the only master mechanic who responded, yoitsmatt!, changed oil the first time at Honda's recommended 600 mile first interval, and not before.

And, no one noted that they rode their bikes till mechanical exhaustion, until engine components failed from age and wear, presumably at least 150,000 miles, which would give some credence to a legitimate concern regarding longevity. My guess is most bikes owned by folks on this forum are sold or traded in LONG before they come even remotely close to being used up.

[nisbeam]

Norton. You are correct, I have no evidence that extra oil changes will have a positive effect on engine life for my ST. However I can detect a change in the note when I change the oil at 4k miles, so it must have lost some viscosity. Regarding engine life, I am sure that Honda know the ST will last for huge miles without problems giving oil changes every 8k. I would expect this is based upon customer expectations as well as mechanical strength. So, lets assume they build it to last for 200,000 miles without problems caused by excessive wear. My guess (& I of course cannot prove it) is that extra oil changes should prolong the life of the engine - the moving parts in particular. As I said I do not have any hard evidence, but I do have some experience having changed the oil every 4k on previous bikes. A Kawazaki ZX9 which did 93,000 miles and a Yamaha Fazer (FZ1) 1000 which did 74,000 miles. When I sold them, both were running like new, used no oil, still on original clutch etc. and I did run them both pretty hard. So I was impressed with the long engine life, and look forward to even more from my ST - I intend to go for really big mileage. :03biker:

[wjbertrand]

Here's another reason to change oil early. I have the two right side cams out right now waiting for a valve shim and I noticed that there are NO cam bearings. That's right...none. The cam rides between the head itself and the caps. So if you were to get any scoring of that surface that might need replacing, It means replacing the entire head, not just the bearings. I'm not sure if the crankshaft has the same situation or not.....God I hope not. Anyway, Leaving dirty oil in can do damage and changing to clean oil Can't do damage. That's reason enough for me. I use Synthetic and I change at 3000-4000mile intervals even though the manual states I can go 8000 on dino oil.


This is pretty common practice in both cars and bikes for years (decades?) now and has proven itself a durable approach. Keep in mind that the cams are turning at only 1/2 speed to the crank and carry a much lighter load. My old 1984 Toyota truck had a cam-in-head material design and that thing was still running strong when I sold it with 260,000 miles on it. Be assured however, that the crank has proper plain bearing inserts.