Fightin' with the handlebars in corners

[Tor]

Here is an issue I had years ago, I talked to a seasoned rider about it, and it improved my cornering abilities from so-so to ,,,, well ,,,,, a lot better, actually,,perfect. I was basically fightin' the bars in the corners, meaning pushing on the inside, but also holding back on the outside bar without realizing it. He said, man, ya need to let loose on the outside bar, almost loose, just barely hold it, don't put any pressure on the outside bar. And lo and behold, I tried this, and it worked. The difference was very noticable after I got a hang of it. The bike almost (felt like) dipped into the corner by itself. My picked line was a lottt easier to follow too. Great improvement. I don't know if others have been fightin' now or in the past, but if you do, try it. I promise it'll help.

[Bribak]

Great advice. I have read this in a couple of books and it really does help to "lighten up". I find the ST to have very light steering for a bike its size.
Thanks for the tip. I always like to read posts like this.

Brian

[Ken]

Nice tip. I'll have to check this out when the I'm back on the road.

At one time I developed a bad habit of raising my elbow(s). This seems to tighten everything up and make the turn less smooth, not to mention that it makes it harder to feel the front end.

[Bones]

Agreed. Lightening up also helps to reduce the strain on your shoulders and neck, which makes longer rides a lot more comfortable.

Now if we could just get all the people in the world who take themselves way too seriously to lighten up...

[Tor]

Agreed. Lightening up also helps to reduce the strain on your shoulders and neck, which makes longer rides a lot more comfortable.

Now if we could just get all the people in the world who take themselves way too seriously to lighten up...

and admit that most of us are not expert riders :)

[sherob]

Now if we could just get all the people in the world who take themselves way too seriously to lighten up...

:cop2: I was wondering how you like your ST? :crackup

I forget who mentioned this a while back... must have been Blumax... but going into curves, use your inside hand to press down on the bars and go loose on the outside hand. Use only one hand to control your turns... I tried this and it made a big difference when zipping thru FM 3090 :bow1: Another huge difference I have since found is tires! The PR's are amazing in turns... where the 020's were'nt :rolleyes:

[Bones]

:cop2: I was wondering how you like your ST? :crackup

Touché :p:

[GRN]

I made the one handed discovery years back on the ST11, lean into/push the inside bar. It's a personal preference... I think our buddy Carl who is certainly demonstrated his ability to handle a bike to me at least, prefers pulling the outside... still focusing on one hand. If you experience a significant level of wobble at high speed, take one hand off and you'll see a similar phenomenon. So when you are going rally really fast, best thing you can do is let go all together:eek: :p:

[tricky_micky]

Guys.

This is called 'Opposite Lock' steering.

As already been talked about, it is a preference wether you push on the bar or pull on the bar.

Just think about this in it's extremeties. Speedway riders go round the track anti clockwise, well they do over here in the UK. Now, when they go into those left hand turns we can see how the rider has transfered his weight a little, but he has pushed the left bar forward, or he may have pulled the right bar back!

Whichever the case may be, lets say he 'Pushed' the left bar forward, it now tips the bike, in some cases, violently inwards, in doing this, the bike tips and tightens the curve.

To put this into practice on a public road, could be dangerous, but we can try it if everything is safe and you do not push the bar to hard.

Take a left hand bend, I now have my right hand side of the road head on! As we approach the bend you should put into practice 5 main points:

1) Information

We take information on what we can see by looking ahead, using the mirrors and trying to get a cross view over the bend is possible.

2) Position

On approach to the left hand bend, the best position is to move towards the right. This will extend the radius of the bend and increase the view.

3) Speed

You should then bring the speed of the bike down to a speed in which you can take the corner safely. If it is a corner you are not familier with, then brush a couple of extra MPH off

4) Gear

Once you have got the speed right, you must then select the appropriate gear in wich to take the bend

5) Acceleration

Once we have got the first 4 points correct, we now apply enough acceleration in order to pull the bike slightly without any increase in road speed because we are now looking for the 'Limit Point' or where the bend begins to straighten.

When you can see the bend straightening, that is when you give it some firm acceleration. This increases the stability of the bike and powers you out of the bend.

What you should not do, is to come off the original line and try to straighten the bend as a 'Racing Line'. This puts you to near any opposing traffic and is dangerous as your head could be over the other side of the road just waiting for a 40 ton truck to catch you. So hold the right hand line until you see the bend straightening.

Now, if you want to put the 'Opposite Lock' theory into practice, make sure you are on a road you really know and how bad the bend is.

Get all the points covered as set out above, hold the inner line until the last second and then put a little power on and push slightly on the left bar. DO NOT PUSH TOO HARD AS THE BIKE WILL REACT VERY QUICKLY.

You will soon find out what opposite lock steering does, and, how valuable it can be if you should every 'Overcook' a bend, you should lean into the bend and apply opposite lock steering.

Another method of trying it out is on a straight section of road. Make sure there is nothing else about, and that your speed is reasonably low. Whilst in the upright position, push the left bar slightly and feel the effect. If you push to hard you may feel something wet and rather smelly coming from the set region.

Then try pushing the bar on the other side, I cant impress to much, but be careful when and if you try the steering methods, I will not be held liable for any of your actions!

Hope it makes sense to you. Lots of topics just coming from this one explanation such as the 'Limit Point' 'Observations' etc just a couple of them to think about!

Mick

[nurseBob]

Guys.

This is called 'Opposite Lock' steering.

Mick
Also known as "countersteering." Interesting this comes up at the same time that a researcher in Berkeley claims to have "invented" the technique to run his robotic bike in the DARPA Grand Challenge last October. The Wright Bros. noted that countersteering is how to control a two-wheeled vehicle... Not too new!:D

[tricky_micky]

Also known as "countersteering." Interesting this comes up at the same time that a researcher in Berkeley claims to have "invented" the technique to run his robotic bike in the DARPA Grand Challenge last October. The Wright Bros. noted that countersteering is how to control a two-wheeled vehicle... Not too new!:D

Your correct Bob.

Opposite Lock or Countersteering, means the same thing.

I did read your article about the Wright Bros and was about to post a reply when I got called to the trough for the evening meal. I did think it was quite funny LOL.

Take care

Mick

[Tor]

Mick,

What you're explaining in your 5 points sounds a little like "delayed apexing". Am I correct?

I have a sneaking feeling that this forum is going to turn out to be extremely popular.....and having an asset like you will only make matters better.

[nurseBob]

I did read your article about the Wright Bros and was about to post a reply when I got called to the trough for the evening meal...
I'm glad you have your priorities in line!:D

[tricky_micky]

Mick,

What you're explaining in your 5 points sounds a little like "delayed apexing". Am I correct?

I have a sneaking feeling that this forum is going to turn out to be extremely popular.....and having an asset like you will only make matters better.

You could call it delayed apexing.

Remember I have to work out the terminology translation, but yes, I will go with that one.

If you apex to early you end up on the so called 'Racing Line' which puts you into danger with the oncoming traffic. Now, if you hold the right hand line for a left hand bend, longer, it increases the radius which in turn makes the bend longer, but shallower.

So, from this position on approach, not only do you get the advantage of increased observations, but you can also hold your speed higher. This is where the difference shows through when the 'Throttle Jockey' on the sports bike comes past me in particular, and on the rare occasion when I kick in and this boring old fart on a Pan rides alongside the sports bike rider deep into a bend. Time to show him how to ride!

Remember, not only does he have pretty coloured leathers matching his bike, but his arse is now hanging off the seat and his knee is touching the floor. It really kills their ego when this BOF (boring old fart) rides alongside him, deep in the bend, holds out the hand and offers him a toffee.

Racing lines are not for the public road, they should stay on the track. I can relate to quite a few stories about riders coming past and I decide to follow, it is so so funny to watch some of them!

Mick

[Highrider]

The technique of using one hand to steer into a corner, as a demonstration to show how the outside hand tries to overcompensate is covered in Lee Parks book. He states that the first time his students try it, most end up off the track on the inside corner because the bikes corner so much more efficiently than they expect.
He only presents this as a lesson to show the effect of one hand fighting the other and does not suggest one hand should be used. Keep 'em both on the bars, just be aware what the outside hand is trying to do to your cornering.

Dave
:biker:

[BrianB]

Ok, nice thread, and maybe just what I need. I have read the Lee parks book, I know the one hand steering or counter steering technique but in left hand corners, I still can't seem to break myself of running on the racing line. Right hand corners I can run a nice smooth arc right down the center of the lane just maintaining my speed, but I almost always have to apply brakes, then accellerate back to speed in left handers to maintain that arc, not necessarly smooth. I go out and practice all the time, and it starts to happen as I pick up the pace a bit, I jokingly refer to it as being scared of the edge of the road but I am sure it is in my technique. Riding one handed does help, but are there any other tips out there that I might try?
I don't actually ride that fast, but would like to be able to maintain a nice quick pace, that is smooth and comfortable.

[Doobage]

I tend to try and do both push and pull at the same time....which means it takes even less effort than just pushing or pulling. (making a right turn - right hand push, left hand pull). This has also come in handy when riding into the sun and needing to use one hand to block the sun, which means if I'm turning left and needing my left hand off the bars, I can simply pull with the right hand. And in the twisties using the push/pull seems to really give me an advantage in terms of how quickly the bike and I seem to respond together.

Something I'm trying to do better is leaning and or throwing my body into a sharper turn. Just a little bit of body lean seems to make the turns smoother, but knowing when to start it at different speeds seems to make a difference between smooth or abrupt.

[GRN]

doob, your actually better off to start by getting the lower portion of your weight shifted, hang a cheek (see tom de's avatar), then very gentle, subtle adjustments with your upper body. it's much smoother and confidence inspiring.

[tricky_micky]

Ok, nice thread, and maybe just what I need. I have read the Lee parks book, I know the one hand steering or counter steering technique but in left hand corners, I still can't seem to break myself of running on the racing line. Right hand corners I can run a nice smooth arc right down the center of the lane just maintaining my speed, but I almost always have to apply brakes, then accellerate back to speed in left handers to maintain that arc, not necessarly smooth. I go out and practice all the time, and it starts to happen as I pick up the pace a bit, I jokingly refer to it as being scared of the edge of the road but I am sure it is in my technique. Riding one handed does help, but are there any other tips out there that I might try?
I don't actually ride that fast, but would like to be able to maintain a nice quick pace, that is smooth and comfortable.

Brian

Try bringing the speed down another mph on approach to the bend, sounds like the braking you are reffering to is what I call 'Comfort' braking, and I find a lot of students I have do the same over here, it is just nerves and a little too much speed on approach.

I talk them through the bends via the intercomm system, in fact I do a full running commentary for them as if I was riding THEIR bike, in fact I might as well be as I do get in very close when training advanced students. They are aware of what I am doing, they get a full safety briefing before we go out, and it works!

Just by bringing the speed down a fraction more on approach removes the so called 'Comfort' braking, and as they hold the line throught the bend, I tell them when to power on. Yes, they have trust in me but I do ask them to trust me as I would never endanger anyone I am training to advanced levels.

Remember the saying we use for bends and corners, 'Slow in and Fast Out' When you come out of the bends you should be under acceleration and it depends on the nature of the bend as to how much power you apply.

So, I would suggest turning the wick back a little. Scrub another mph off your speed on approach, hold the line you are on. If you are on a right hand bend, your position should be out to the centre of the road and for a left hand bend, you should be tucked into the right.

That took some working out LOL having to remember which side of the road I would be on!

Hope this helps a little.

Mick

[tricky_micky]

doob, your actually better off to start by getting the lower portion of your weight shifted, hang a cheek (see tom de's avatar), then very gentle, subtle adjustments with your upper body. it's much smoother and confidence inspiring.

GRN

Whilst I agree with what you are saying, I would be cautious in explaining this one at this moment in time. What we must first look at is the level of riding that Doob or anyone else is riding at.

I know, you may know Doob and have ridden with him, so then I respect your comments and agree with you. But if you try telling a rider that has not gone into advanced levels before, we need to step back and get them going round bends in a safe correct manner with all the elements working.

Once they have been covered and the rider is profficient, then we can start moving them up another step.

I am not knocking what you say at all, in fact I agree with you, just wanted to point out to others that this is a little bit further up the ladder.

You follow a Police Rider over here, and of course, probably over tyhere in the US. As they go round bends or twisties, they just sit bolt upright and just tip the bike in as if it were a monorail. Riders following are amazed because it is so effortless but very quick!

I have more to add but dont want to hogg the thread or your response. It is good to see so many questions and replies coming back. I can see these threads going above and beyond!

BTW

Do not mean any disrespect to Doob, just using the handle to follow the post.

Mick

[Carl_T]

I think our buddy Carl... prefers pulling the outside... still focusing on one hand. Disclaimer first, you are responsible for your own safety and you are on your own, using your own God given sense and judgement whether or not to try anything I write about.

Greg, you misremembered that one, I'm and inside hand controller. Push to tip in.

Also if a mid turn alteration is needed, and I have to stand the bike up a bit more, I "pull" with the "inside" hand to stand the bike up more (using the same hand to controll the steering, all through the turn). Normally I pick the bike up mostly with the throttle when properly on my line, but I'm talking about needing to alter line, standing it up more quickly than the throttle would.

I would like to say to those that might tend to use both hands that when panic hits, if you are used to using both hands it is all to easy (and I believe common) to cross control and fight one hand with the other in the heat of adrenaline (reducing your ability to manuever and running wide when there is no need to). It is likely better practice to get used to one hand control. I'm not going to debate whether it should be pushing the inside grip or pulling on the outside. Well, I won't debat it beyond saying that when you are first playing with countersteering, it's likely far easier to remember to push with the inside hand because you push with the right to turn right and push with the left to turn left.

I also get my inside forearm closer to level than the normal straight ahead riding position and you might think of pushing with your elbow at that point. This makes countersteering much more effective on many bikes. More upright body positions have you pushing as hard "down" as you are pushing the bar "forward".

With your forearm more towards level and pushing with elbow, you put nearer to 100% of your push in the correct direction (forward).

I get my forearm more level by leaning forward from the waist some. In addition I lean my head and shoulders off center to the inside of the turn some, making sure to cock my head level with the horizon line as the bike tips in.

Before advancing to sliding your butt inside a bit on the seat, would come placing your head and shoulders off center a ways towards the inside of the turn (keeping head cocked level with horizon line). Then when you do advance towards sliding your butt to the inside some, you will be used to having your head and shoulders in the right place and you won't have the problem of butt inside and head over the center of the bike.

It takes a bit of slow speed practice to get used to reading all the incoming information from the "new" position of head and shoulders inside of bike centerline a little, if you haven't done it before. So, new upper body position should come first. People often refer to "kissing the inside mirror", you don't have to start out over that far though, you can work towards it.

In the end the ST responds with an extra, more solid stability, from a butt crack on inside seat edge, head and shoulders inside of center (head horizontal to horizon), leaned forward body position, with inside elbow bent forearm closer to level (push with that inside elbow to turn, pull to straighten). Just remember changing body position to a new strange one alters the minds processing ability until the new position becomes familiar, try things slowly at slower speeds until you begin to get used to them.

As Mick says, start body centered, try new things one at a time in a safe traffic free open area. If you can find a big empty parking lot where you won't get kicked off the property, better to start trying new things there with complete riding outfit and a buddy for backup help in case of trouble.

Just avoid making the mistake of riding on the road and leaning the bike under you (bike leaned more than riders body) except on very slow speed U turns perhaps. Dirt bike riders have to watch out for that one as that is how you ride/slide a dirt bike. If you ride the road with the bike leaned under you, you will run out of ground clearance in a turn much, much, too early and at too low a speed, not a good thing.

I use the exercise Mick mentioned on near to every ride when I first start out. After going down the road a bit and applying the brakes a few times so the tires begin to warm, AND in an area without traffic, I keep my body centered and alternately push on each handlebar grip (left, right, left, right, etc.) at a reasonable speed. The bike weavs in the lane left and right and it helps gear up my brain for the ride and continues to groove into it, which grip push does what. Besides it feels nice.

Counter steering is the main way you can turn your bike. However cornering well is a complex mix of many things in various combinations. In no particular order and not necessarily always used, there is:

The wide view
Specifics view
incoming information
judgment and decision
action
possible road direction after turn reading
environment reading for clues as to types of possible “yet to be seen” threats
speed requirement judgment
rheostatic type smoothness of control input implimentation
front and rear brake combination
trail braking (not often on the street)
mid corner emergency braking
changing from brakes to throttle
proper chassis settling
counter steering
lean angle setting
listening
feeling
knee to tank pressure
tank gripping
outside/inside foot peg weighting
body positioning
head positioning
elbow hand positioning
one hand steering
vision placement
active peripheral vision use (the wide view, practice this one)
determining if sun position will be problematic to you or other traffic at the new angles of travel (when low in sky).
turn radius reading
camber reading
elevation change reading
road surface reading
potential surface hazard reading
target fixation avoidance, concentrating on needed path past
surprise object/turn occupation hazard reading
animal and or human occupation reading
vehicle occupation reading
possible side entry point reading for vehicles or animals
determining turn in point
determine apex location
determining first half of turn arc and line
determining closest point toward inside of turn safe to use as apex (clear empty turn, 4 feet off centerline on left, closer to road edge on right)
determine exit point
vanishing point reading
actual turn radius status reading (decreasing radius, constant, increasing radius, from vanishing point change, very important on unfamiliar roads)
traffic direction/speed reading and traffic potential hazard reading
trailing throttle, maintinence throttle, accelerative throttle
trailing throttle tips in, trailing throttle reduces ground clearance a bit
accelerative throttle stands up, accelerative throttle normally increases ground clearance a bit
mid turn hazard avoidance
riding so you can stop within your sight line
feeling feedback from the front tire, rear tire, chassis, engine
accurately hitting your spots on your chosen line.

and I'm sure I've forgotten to type some in. Since all of this must be implemented within the brief time a turn takes (much of it must be decided on in portions of a second) the list makes a visual statement as to the complexity of skillfully turning a motorcycle both well and safely. What information is found from the "reading" activities on the list may require a particular combination of technique applications at any instant in time to handle the developing situation.

It is well to ride with focused attention in the wide view using pinpoint focus very selectively, and to become skilled in riding techniques on a regular piece by piece basis. There is too much to try and improve everything at once. Pick one or two things and work on them for a bit during a ride (with an eye and mind for doing your practice in a safe way that minimizes risk).

At the start of a days ride I remind myself, “attention, judgment, execution, position”.
SV:06biker:

[Clair]

Well written, thanks for posting it. Much to try once I can get back on the bike safely. That all begins once the snow/ice leaves my driveway! LOL

I took the MSF's ERC class last spring on my Vulcan (prior to purchasing my ST) and in the class they had us do a lot of the weaving exercises using only the right hand. It was very interesting and rather hard for me to do actually. LOL First off was trust because you only have one hand on the bike, the left hand is on your thigh. You need to learn that you can and will maintain control with just one hand. Then there's the adjustment to all the bikes lean coming from just that one hand ... makes you realize how much you may "adjust" with the left hand at times. This makes you do the Push and Pull thing too which is rather cool. I practice this a lot, or try to, and think it's helping me improve.

I plan, this spring, to do more lazy loops in the MSF parking lot taking all of this in, what's in this thread. Relaxing, letting go, correct body posture. Working nice big laze 8's and over time making them smaller and tighter. Should be a fun exercise!

Now, time to get the skiis on ... the resorts near me have at least a 120" base now and they are calling my name!

[Carl_T]

Do remember that body position will be different for road turns than it will be for very tight U turns and figure 8s.

[rob.uk]

This is where the difference shows through when the 'Throttle Jockey' on the sports bike comes past me in particular, and on the rare occasion when I kick in and this boring old fart on a Pan rides alongside the sports bike rider deep into a bend. Time to show him how to ride!

Remember, not only does he have pretty coloured leathers matching his bike, but his arse is now hanging off the seat and his knee is touching the floor. It really kills their ego when this BOF (boring old fart) rides alongside him, deep in the bend, holds out the hand and offers him a toffee.

Racing lines are not for the public road, they should stay on the track. I can relate to quite a few stories about riders coming past and I decide to follow, it is so so funny to watch some of them!

Mick

Hi Mick,

I'm with the IAM group in Suffolk, just done my cross check and about to take the advanced test. Your posts are very helpful and thank you for the time and care you've put in.

I was out on an observed run in November when I saw a Leather-Clad Green Goblin on a Kawasaki Ninja overtake my observer. We were at 60 mph on country roads. He overtook at about 90 mph down a short straight then had to slam the anchors before the blind right hander I was lined up for. I kept a steady 60 mph round the next 5 corners and the Green Goblin eventually screamed past on the next straight, again at about 90 mph.

My observer pulled me over and asked me what I thought. I said I thought the guy was probably p*****d off because I was sticking to the national speed limit and using the road in such a way that I was holding him up. My observer split his sides laughing. He said that from behind he was watching both of us, me almost upright but sticking to late apex lines at about 60 mph, while the Green Goblin was going for the racing apex line on every corner, bumb off seat, knee pads and footrests scraping the road. The observer said I gained about 50 yards on every corner and that's what was upsetting the guy - he couldn't believe that he couldn't keep up with a BoF (Boring old Fart) on a tourer.

Having said all this I've also done a track day on a CBR600 at the Ron Haslam race school. I came last. Why? The "late apex" line isn't the fastest on an open track, with clear vilibility round every bend, but I couldn't get my road riding line out of my system. Also, being a BoF I'm not fit enough to hang off the bike, gripping with just one knee round the corners. My shins and lower back hurt like hell as it was. I kept wishing I was doing this on my ST1300 when at least I'd have had a comfortable ride.

So I definitely agree that there are two systems for riding, and for road riding it's safer and faster to take the late apex because of improved visibility. I also think that its safer and faster NOT to hang off the bike on public roads, otherwise you reduce your view round corners and can put yourself directly into the path of oncoming traffic if you get it wrong.

Regards,
Rob

[tricky_micky]

Hi Mick,

I'm with the IAM group in Suffolk, just done my cross check and about to take the advanced test. Your posts are very helpful and thank you for the time and care you've put in.

Regards,
Rob
Rob

Be careful with the IAM Groups and this 'Push Push attitiude'. I have been an examiner for them for a number of years and I got sick of clients telling me that they had a bo*&^ing for not making an overtake!

This really gets to me and winds me up. The IAM and other bodies are not out there to produce POLICE RIDERS, but some of the observers think they are as good as a Police Rider, sorry but they are not as good or never will be, and I do not want to be offensive in any way, but what qualifications have they got!

Statistics prove here in the UK that most motorcycle fatalities occur on bends or on overtakes, but what do the IAm talk about, well they talk about 'PROGRESS'

I am a Proffesional' trainer and run a business, and to hear the talk from some of the IAM observers makes me cringe! I do not care if one of my clients misses an overtake. I may ask why, and if the response is some thing like "I was looking at the blonde on the petrol station" that is good enuff. At least it shows their observations are getting better, but when they do an overtake, I would expect it to be spot on.

I know there are a different opinions out there, but statistics here in the UK prove my theory and I train accordingly as do the trainers that work for me.

Having worked on the 'Opposite Lock' theory of steering to which is what this thread is about, I wonder what the main cause of road accidents in the US is, compared with the UK?

Mick

[ROBERT MCCLAIN]

Brian,

There are several things that make cornering work like we want it to. On any given occasion we're likely to be "off" on one or more of them.

1. Setting your entry speed for the corner. Keep it slow enough so that you
can stay relaxed and smooth.

2. Position the bike to the outside of the corner (for a late apex).

3. Looking through the corner (at the exit, not at the pavement in front of
your tires). Always look far ahead of the bike. Don't fixate on objects in
the road or on other vehicles in either lane. Your vision must keep moving
down the road ahead of you.

4. Shifting your weight to the inside of the corner.

5. Push on the handlebar.

6. Apex near the inside of the corner.

7. Increase throttle slightly as you leave the apex.

Everybody has an opinion about these things, but I don't think there is anything that affects your cornering as much as where you are looking. You really cannot go where you are not looking. And because your bike is moving forward you cannot afford to allow your vision to fixate on anything that is not moving in the same direction and speed. The bike right in front of you may not be far enough around the curve to use as a focal point either. I looked at one and followed him as he ran off the road in a corner last fall. We both managed to keep the bikes up with the Lord's help.

I'm finding that my new ST1300 requires light imput on the bars in corners.

Good luck and God bless.

Bob

[Blue STreak]

When I was racing (many years ago, think RD350 Yamahas), my preference was to use the left hand to push or pull, depending on the direction of turn. This left my right hand free to modulate throttle as necessary. If you're holding pressure on the right grip to maintain a lean angle, your throttle control is going to be compromised.

How big a deal this is on the street depends on a lot of things, but especially on how close to the limit you ride and how stable the bike is in turns. Some bike/tire combinations need constant pressure to hold a lean angle, which really can compromise throttle control if you're doing it with your right hand. Others will lean into a turn and hold that lean angle until you need to change it, so it's less of an issue. But even so, if you want to roll off the throttle while increasing lean (because you overcooked it coming into a corner, say), or straighten up while changing speed (because you're headed over the center line, maybe), trying to use the same hand to countersteer and control the throttle makes things more complicated.

I have to admit, though, on the ST I've gotten kind of lazy, and tend to push on either end of the bar to change direction.

[wishey1]

and speed really is not my thing. I use my bike
on my commutes to work and travel to the counties.
I rarely drive around for fun on weekends unless
the wife wants to "get out" and go somewhere
on the MC. The fastest I ever go is maybe 20 mph
over the speed limit in curves.

My question to you guys is-when I go into a turn
I push, or pull doing the counter-steering as you all
are talking about, ok, but I move to the outside or
"highside" part of the seat as the bike is turning.
What I mean is that as the bike is going say
into a right hand turn, I am scooting to the left edge
of the seat. Just kinda 'dipping' the bike.

It's wrong technique, right?
But it's fun to do it that...lol...

wsh

[Medicine Bear]

I'm not that aggressive either, Wish. When I took the MSF Basic course, we covered counter steering in the classroom only. But one thing I remember the instructor saying was to go ahead and lean into the turn but keep your head level with the horizon. This takes some of the fun away from turning for me but the rationale was that you kept a better sense of your bank in the turn. I would think you're getting something similar in the way your turning but maybe negating part of the "efficiency" of the turn by moving to the opposite side of the seat from the turn.

As I said, I'm not an aggressive rider and don't really have that much saddle time compared to most here but that's my 2 centavos.

Fred :03biker:

[wishey1]

thanks for your 2 centavos....LOL.....

yeah, you know I think what I do the more I think about it is,
into a turn I kinda of stay in the same position
and let the bike turn 'under me'. So that on a left turn
I pull on the right handle bar or push on the left
and the bike dips and I am now on the right edge of the seat.
I'm not sure I could do that on the Wing with the type seat it is.

Anyway, thanks for info. I really want a driving course,
as well but readings here are the next best thing.
(or maybe the best thing)

Best Regards M B

wish
.

[Carl_T]

Any time you change your body position to one you haven’t used before, it tends to interfere a bit with your ability to process feedback, and so your judgment. You need to slowly get used to new positions at slower speeds than normal for you, and in safe places to try new things. That needs to be done until you can get your full judgment ability back on track in the new position and it feels more familiar to you. Then you can up the speed back to normal for you in the new position.

It's wrong technique, right?
But it's fun to do it that...lol...
Yes it IS wrong road riding technique. :hurt1:

It is good dirt riding technique with the dirt machines mega ground clearance, high pegs, and big slides where you need the bike to be able to slide sideways under you a large amount. Riding the “high side” of the seat like that allows the bike to slide sideways to the outside underneath you a long ways before your body begins to drag the bike into a steeper lean due to the sideways bike movement. You then have a maximum ability to shift your weight inside while pushing the bike more upright in lean and putting more tire and knobs down into the dirt under hard acceleration out of a turn.

When I raced dirt I sat with the middle of my butt on the outside seat edge and leaned the bike under me often.

Yes, it’s good dirt riding technique, but a significantly more dangerous technique for the street. Dirt riders have to retrain themselves for body position on road bikes.

On the street if the bike slides far enough sideways to move a long ways under your body, you are likely moments away from a massive high side crash anyway, so that cancels that benefit of the body position on the street. The road bike does not have mega ground clearance so that further cancels any possible benefit as well. You end up with no benefit (other than if feels cool) and you do get potentially serious negatives.

What that body position does that is not good for the street is to eat up your lean angle too early. To go X number of miles per hour in a turn the bike will have to lean a good deal more using that position compared to even a “straight up and down with the bike lean angle” seating position (or leaning the upper body the same as the bike leans in other words). Leaning the bike under you will eat up still more significant degrees of lean angle compared to leaning forward and inside while sliding a butt cheek inside towards the seat edge.

What this means is that in an emergency maneuver (where you will do what you habitually trained yourself to do), a rider sitting on the high side of the seat and leaning the bike under him, could end up dragging hard parts and crashing out. Yet a different rider who understood good body positioning would sail through the maneuver at the same speed Scott free and safe. The same can be said for getting caught needing to turn sharper in a decreasing radius turn, or coming in to a turn fast, either on purpose or by accident.

Just because you ride conservatively, is no guarantee that you will never have to do “a steep lean angle turn” at the drop of a hat under variable real world conditions.

You might want to consider practicing sitting straight with the bike in turns while keeping your head level with the horizon.

When that can be done well, a rider might want to slowly learn to lean a bit forward and inside more than the bike, with their upper body (head between the center of the gas tank (center line drawn front to back) and the mirror in relation to how far inside they lean, more toward or actually over the mirror's centerline [centerline drawn front to back]) while keeping their head level with the horizon.

When that can be done well, a rider might want to get familiar with the following. Just before the rider turns he slides his butt inside so his butt center is on or nearly on the inside edge of the seat while his trunk leans forward some and his head is inside of the tank centerline also (head level with horizon). This position requires the least bike lean angle for any given speed around a macadam turn.

When the rider can do that well, he can go on back to the more conservative, sitting straight with the amount of bike lean, if he likes that best. Just so, if he has to pull tighter in a turn, he knows how to lean his body further inside to help him do it and conserve lean angle, so he has a chance to do it without scraping.

For me when I was riding the ST, moving my butt inside conserved more lean angle than moving my head and shoulders inside instead did (butt is your contact point with the bike). Doing both at once conserved the most lean of all. I tested this out at sane speeds on longer sweepers where I could shift body position mid turn and watch the lean angle correspondingly change.

That being the case I now personally tend to always slide my butt over there and lean my shoulders and head forward and inside some, but not inside as much as possible. If I get caught out needing to turn sharper I can ‘gently’ lean my shoulders and head inside more as I counter-steer the extra amount to further conserve a bit of lean angle. It would be damn hard to slide my butt inside further without disrupting the chassis some, so I get it there before the turn.

Also in that position, I can push the bike more upright if the rear wheel breaks loose. When you do that your shoulders end up staying close to where they were, the bike stands up a few degrees, so you end up with your upper body leaning off to the inside more than before you stood the bike up a bit. You actually use the inertia of your shoulder weight to push the bike with. This works better with a lighter bike than the ST. If I was already leaning inside as far as my shoulders and head could go, I wouldn’t be able to stand the bike up (to get a tad more traction) from that position as easily. This standing the bike up, is only applicable from near the edge of your tires anyway with today’s modern profiles, and is not much of a concern on the street (except upon the rarest of emergency maneuver cases).

[Carl_T]

keep your head level with the horizon. This takes some of the fun away from turning for me but the rationale was that you kept a better sense of your bank in the turn. Fred, if that fun was coming from the small disorientation of your head leaning with the bike, that type of fun has a potential of bringing on hurt.

Getting used to keeping your head level, becomes comfortable with practice and a rider can better judge his changing position in time/space and his velocity/g force situation.

For riders new to the head level position, they need to be watchful that in leveling their head they do it keeping their upper body position correctly placed. There could be a tendency towards allowing the shoulders to get placed to the outside of the tank centerline (that runs front to back) and leaning the bike under the rider. In other words, accidentally straightening the body more upright while trying to level the head with the horizon.

Head and shoulders need to be either in line with the tank centerline (drawn front to back over the gas cap), or more towards the inside of the turn than the tank centerline. The head gets cocked on the neck so it is level with the horizon (neck bent).

This stuff is important even for riders who ride slower than old Grandmas (not saying that’s you, just mean everyone needs to utilize heads level with the horizons regardless of slow or fast habitual speed). The head figures out g-force and balance better from that position.

[Medicine Bear]

Agree 100% Carl. I had assumed (incorrectly) that the whole body, including the head, needed to be inline with the lean of the bike. I guess that comes from years and years of flying. It didn't really take all that long to readjust to the body lean/head level style and now it's a natural way to ride.

Thanks for the comments.

Fred :03biker:

[stgurpster]

I find the more I think about it the less comfortable cornering becomes... same thing with improv riffs while playing jazz violin, when playing golf (well... except for my grip - and I still stink!), and when casting a fly line.

Basically I just go with instinct and if I feel uncomfortable in a corner I try to "let go"... it's always tension that causes a bad line. I find that bad lines happen when I feel any fear, or try to control things too much instead of trusting the tires and the forces of nature... sound kind of like a hippy momemt lol!

That being said I'm going to read your posts and try things out.

Cheers!
John

[kenya6]

Lee Park's "Total Control" book contains a lot of useful insights and is well worth the money. His point about not letting the outside hand undo what the inside hand is doing certainly improved my cornering and cornering comfort level. Another point that he made is that the bike "wants" to do the proper thing and that we should relax and let it do so to the extent possible.

[JimKrause]

What Tor is talking about in his original post is counter steering. I've been riding since the mid 60's but only really learned to counter steer in the past few years. I suspect I'm not alone in this. The tendency for many riders (perhaps more so those of us who didn't start riding as youngsters) is to ride a motorcycle like a tricycle ... that is, steer the handlebars in the direction you want to go. You can never get good on a motorcycle steering like this, but I'm sure at least 50% of riders (probably a lot more) never learn to counter steer and RELY on it. I finally realized after talking to my brother who races that I had to learn to counter steer better, and started to force myself to steer by pushing forward or down on the inside bar ... but for those of use with along history of riding like a tricycle, the fear of lack of control causes you to subconsciously pull back on the far side bar, offsetting the effect of countersteering. I went through exactly the same thing as Tor, pulling back in fear with the left hand while pushing forward with the right. It takes a conscious effort to overcome this if you've been doing it wrong for a long time. Your lines through corners, and your ability to lean further safely, improve dramatically as you improve your countersteering skills. When you see a rider wobbling through a curve, it's clear he's not countersteering. Countersteering takes advantage of the gyroscopic effect of the front wheel to convert a rotational force (pushing the bar forward) into a lateral force (causing the bike to fall into the turn), and the bike AUTOMATICALLY assumes the correct lean angle. Steering like a tricycle, you are constantly trying to get the proper amount of turn and the right lean angle, hence the wobbly turns. Gotta countersteer to ride well. Takes practice for some of us ... I think the natural racers just learned that way early and it's easy for them. One thing's for sure, you can turn sharper and safer if you countersteer, so you need to learn the skill ... it might save your life some day. It needs to be automatic.

Jim
'96 ST1100 and lovin' it

[Carl_T]

Jim, cross controlling, or fighting one hand against the other, is when you "push" or "resist the outside bar coming back towards you when you push on the inside one. If you were to pull back on the outside bar and push on the inside one at the same time the bike would SNAP into a lean EXTREMELY rapidly. Kind of like King Kong did an inside bar push.

I sort of hesitate to post the following for people newer to counter-steering. My hesitancy is because using both hands at once could potentially result in confusion resulting in cross control (two hands fighting each other) and a blown turn. However this can be eliminated by practice which grooves things into the subconscious.

The old riding hands already know what I’m about to describe, and I’m not totally sure the new ones should mess with it until one hand counter-steering is well grooved in. However, since more information is better than less I'll go ahead.

Lets say you are going at a good rate of speed in a long turn (more speed makes turn in take more pressure), and something happens that absolutely requires a swift mid turn correction to pull your line in tighter than the radius you are using. Let’s further say that this particular bike handling and the speed combined, conspire to require a lot of inside bar pressure to get the job done, but you can’t seem to quite push the inside bar hard enough-quick enough, with your present body position. You are pushing but the bike isn’t responding quickly enough.

This is the time you can use the outside hand additionally to pull back on the outside bar to help the inside hand that is pushing, in order to lean the bike in steeper, and to do it quickly. If you use the outside hand pull, correctly, the bike will respond much faster, and this could be the difference in certain situations between making the turn and not (so long as there is ground clearance left to pull in tighter).

This extra hand help isn’t even needed on all bikes. However, there are some bikes where in specific situations, this could save your bacon.

On general principal, ”simpler” is always more repeatable and far less prone to mistakes and F ups. So one hand control is smart for all you steering needs. That is true except for the rare situation/bike-combination/occasions when one hand steering is not enough. Then it is good to know how to apply a super Hero counter-steer with both.

Just keep the brain focused so there is zero confusion as to which is supposed to do what, and how much!

When you first start out for the day (after you are down the road a bit so your tires aren’t stone cold) doing a few weaves in your lane (straight road) by using alternate “inside bar pushes,” warms up the brain as to how to steer for the coming ride. Just make sure no Patrol cars are sitting nearby, as some may not understand it isn’t joyriding.

[saaz]

I would say that in an emergency swerve situation you need to apply the steering pressure as best you can. This is where doing the training courses and having a practice ever now and then while riding helps you do it as a natural reaction. As I learnt years ago, a lot of what you do on the road needs lots of practice to make it seem easy and instinctive. It is mind and matter. It is amazing how you can really shift an ST11 if you have to to avoid situations..best to do it while you are in control and don't desperatly need to. In everyday riding I try for the smooth approach as you have to allow for reduced road grip which sharp movements might expose you to.

I admit to not practicing what I should every time I go out. I should do a refresher course to get me out of complacency.

[Coop]

Agreed.
Now if we could just get all the people in the world who take themselves way too seriously to lighten up...

I don't think a lighter grip on their necks will help. Hmmm!