Low speed manuvering and slipping the clutch

[clmixon]

Low speed manuvering on the ST-1300 seems to require more use of the friction zone than other bikes I have ridden. Admittedly this is my first fuel injected bike but I still find that to avoid abrupt power changes I hold a steady low throttle and slip the clutch more than I would on the CX-500 or other carburated bikes.

In the case of the 500, I could select 1st gear. let the clutch out fully and simply go lock to lock doing figure 8's in the driveway. The ST requires much more finesse in order to stay safe and in the box doing low speed figure 8's and turns.

How do ya'll manage your low speed manuvers on the ST? Is there a better technique to be adopted or is it just time for more practice?

Chris :04biker:

[Putt]

Chris,

I had a CX-500 also, and strangely enough, I find the low speed characteristic
of the 1300 to be a bit better than then 500. The 500 seemed to be VERY
top heavy to me.. Seemed like there was a LOT of oversteer in the CX. I
do think that first gear on the CX was a bit lower than on the ST.. You could
idle at a bit less over-the-ground speed, which I guess could "seem" like better handling maybe?


Putt...

[Tor]

I agree with you, Chris. I think it's mainly because the throttle is more "sensitive" than a regular carburated bike. At least thats what I have found. The solution in my case: Slightly higher RPM in the friction zone. Not much, just a little higher. I use higher RPM for one simple reason,,,avoid engine stall during full lock. It gives me a little more RPM cushion. You're up the creek if it stalls on a full lock slowturn :D, if you dont react very fast. I love the ST's clutch though, because it is IMO (at least on mine) very linear and accurate. For that reason, I change the clutch engagement (still staying within the edges of the friction zone)constantly during very sharp slowspeed turns, and more or less stay at the same throttle position. So in my case, it is all clutch adjustment/rear brake adjustment during full-lock turns. My wife had an issue on her VTX where she had problems doing full locks. I had a time with her getting her to turn her head as far as she could during these turns. She finally got it, and tightened her turns up a lot.

[clmixon]

Chris,

I had a CX-500 also, and strangely enough, I find the low speed characteristic
of the 1300 to be a bit better than then 500. The 500 seemed to be VERY
top heavy to me.. Seemed like there was a LOT of oversteer in the CX. I
do think that first gear on the CX was a bit lower than on the ST.. You could
idle at a bit less over-the-ground speed, which I guess could "seem" like better handling maybe?


Putt...

maybe the style, mine was a cx-500 custom, more rake, longer forks?

chris

[dond]

"The key to making nice, tight U-turns is centripetal force. Remember that expression from your high school physics days? It is the force you can feel when you hold a spinning top, and try to move it suddenly. The top resists - the faster you spin it, the more resistance you feel. To make centripetal force work to your advantage, you induce spin into your engine components by revving the motor. Not blipping the throttle, but by running up to, and holding at around 2 500 RPM. The centripetal force exerted by your spinning engine components under these conditions is considerable - more than enough to hold you, your bike, your pillion and luggage upright whilst you manoeuver through your turn. "

With the clutch at the frictionzone and a bit of rear only brake, those feet up low speed full lock turns are easier with the rpms up.

[clmixon]

"The key to making nice, tight U-turns is centripetal force. Remember that expression from your high school physics days? It is the force you can feel when you hold a spinning top, and try to move it suddenly. The top resists - the faster you spin it, the more resistance you feel. To make centripetal force work to your advantage, you induce spin into your engine components by revving the motor. Not blipping the throttle, but by running up to, and holding at around 2 500 RPM. The centripetal force exerted by your spinning engine components under these conditions is considerable - more than enough to hold you, your bike, your pillion and luggage upright whilst you manoeuver through your turn. "

With the clutch at the frictionzone and a bit of rear only brake, those feet up low speed full lock turns are easier with the rpms up.

I feel a trip to the range box coming on..... I have also been told that high RPM will give a better line in a curve. able to get more lean before rolling the throttle back on for exit.

Thanks Don

Chris :04biker:

[jeff4912]

Combination of throttle, rear brake and clutch. Believe it or not, when you get the feel of it, you can almost idle the engine and slip the clutch while using the rear brake to "stand you up".
It's just practice and time. You do not need to hold higher rpm's to complete a well coordinated lock turn. Higher rpm's do give you a better fudge factor if you tend to stall the engine though.

[STeve1300]

"....... is centripetal force. Remember that expression from your high school physics days?

No, frankly I thought you had your terms confused or misspelled....I stand corrected.... I looked centripetal (http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centripetal) up. :bow1:

[CrashTestDanny]

I took my motorcycle skills test on the ST less than a week after I bought her. 300 miles after a 17 year break from riding. The nice lady administering the test saw me on a big tourer and asked "are you sure you want to run this test on that?"

That slalom run was tough - and it was the only place where I lost points. About halfway through it I had to stab the ground with my left foot. The rest of the run was perfect, but I was sorely embarassed about that. I still have troubles with low speed maneuvers and take advantage of every empty parking lot to practice lock-to-lock figure-8s.

[dond]

No, frankly I thought you had your terms confused or misspelled....I stand corrected.... I looked centripetal (http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centripetal) up. :bow1:
Not mine anyhow. But as you now know it's a real term but not used much at parties :o:

[Bones]

Combination of throttle, rear brake and clutch.
That's the ticket. Turbo City FPR made modulating the throttle much easier at slow speed.

[sandman]

Chris,

I've found that adding some friction on the Throttlemeister speed control so that my throttle isn't so loose greatly reduces the off/on tendencies of the ST's fuel injection.

My slow speed maneuvers looked like I was riding a bucking horse before I tried this.

Gordon

[jackpine savage]

"The key to making nice, tight U-turns is centripetal force. Remember that expression from your high school physics days? It is the force you can feel when you hold a spinning top, and try to move it suddenly. The top resists - the faster you spin it, the more resistance you feel. To make centripetal force work to your advantage, you induce spin into your engine components by revving the motor. "

I have to think that those BMW guys don't have it quite right. A example of centripetal force is the force exerted by a string tied to rock that is spun about and is directed inward toward the axis of rotation. So there's really nothing there to stop a motorcycle from falling over. Angular momentum is what keeps a gyroscope stable as well as the spinning wheels and engine of a motorcycle (Newton's 1st Law of Motion. An object in motion will remain in motion and an object at rest will remain at rest unless acted upon by an unknown force.). This is directed along the axis of rotation (the axle) so sideways tipping action is resisted. Note that there is no resistance to wheelies or forward acceleration due to the spinning wheels and engine. :)

David

[Carl_T]

Note that there is no resistance to wheelies or forward acceleration due to the spinning wheels and engine.
David, this statement (as I understand it) isn’t completely borne out in the real world of riding. Take a motorcycle over a jump. :06biker: Let’s say the front end comes up way too high and is in danger of continuing on up so that bike and rider is going to go over backwards in mid air.

What to do? The bike is completely off the ground doing a wheelie in mid air past the balance point. The wheels are not touching, and it would seem to have no ability to right itself. :eek:

It would seem this is the end my friend… but no it isn’t… The rider taps the rear brake stopping the rear wheel spinning suddenly and the front end snaps back down instead of continuing to rise. That, even though the wheels were completely off the ground (this actually works, I’ve been there, done that).

Same bike and rider only this time he misjudges throttle and body position and is doing a progressive nose dive in mid air, oh **** he thinks this isn’t looking good for a landing. :eek:

He snaps the throttle wide open so the engine’s crankshaft and rear wheel spins up rapidly (engine type with crank spinning in the same direction as the wheel). The nose stops it’s dive. It actually works, hopefully to the degree needed.

[nurseBob]

David, this statement (as I understand it) isn’t completely borne out in the real world of riding. Take a motorcycle over a jump. :06biker: Let’s say the front end comes up way too high and is in danger of continuing on up so that bike and rider is going to go over backwards in mid air.

What to do? The bike is completely off the ground doing a wheelie in mid air past the balance point. The wheels are not touching, and it would seem to have no ability to right itself. :eek:

It would seem this is the end my friend… but no it isn’t… The rider taps the rear brake stopping the rear wheel spinning suddenly and the front end snaps back down instead of continuing to rise. That, even though the wheels were completely off the ground (this actually works, I’ve been there, done that).

Same bike and rider only this time he misjudges throttle and body position and is doing a progressive nose dive in mid air, oh **** he thinks this isn’t looking good for a landing. :eek:

He snaps the throttle wide open so the engine’s crankshaft and rear wheel spins up rapidly (engine type with crank spinning in the same direction as the wheel). The nose stops it’s dive. It actually works, hopefully to the degree needed.
Transfer of angular momentum from the wheels to the bike. Energy is conserved.

[jackpine savage]

David, this statement (as I understand it) isn’t completely borne out in the real world of riding. Take a motorcycle over a jump. :06biker: Let’s say the front end comes up way too high and is in danger of continuing on up so that bike and rider is going to go over backwards in mid air.

What to do? The bike is completely off the ground doing a wheelie in mid air past the balance point. The wheels are not touching, and it would seem to have no ability to right itself. :eek:

It would seem this is the end my friend… but no it isn’t… The rider taps the rear brake stopping the rear wheel spinning suddenly and the front end snaps back down instead of continuing to rise. That, even though the wheels were completely off the ground (this actually works, I’ve been there, done that).

Same bike and rider only this time he misjudges throttle and body position and is doing a progressive nose dive in mid air, oh **** he thinks this isn’t looking good for a landing. :eek:

He snaps the throttle wide open so the engine’s crankshaft and rear wheel spins up rapidly (engine type with crank spinning in the same direction as the wheel). The nose stops it’s dive. It actually works, hopefully to the degree needed.

Yes, you and Bob are correct. I was talking only in terms of constant angular velocity of all components. I would think that you could also tip the front or rear of the bike by revving the throttle in the middle of the jump (which i see you just said). I'd better stop here or we'll have to be discussing the difference between a longitudinal or lateral direction to the crankshaft. The ST might not be a good bike to try that on. :)

David

[Carl_T]

Yes, so why aren't we feeling this with the engine crank running front to back? When I rode an old CX500 you could move (tip) the bike several inches to one side while standing still, by quickly running up the engine. (I think it was the CX)

I thought the ST would behave similarly, but don't remember experiencing it.

[clmixon]

My CX-500 was a very easy to manuver machine. When I first posted I was pointing out that a manuver that was very easy to safely complete, actually to the point where I could literally do figure 8's in the driveway,(yes two car carport) I have problems doing the same manuver in the box on the course or inside two spaces in a parking lot, especially going to the right side.

I am going to go out and try more slip on the clutch with a slightly higher RPM if I get a chance this weekend.

Of course when I am full up touring the tankbag handles all signalling, windshield and engine starting functions since I continually hit the switches with the bag :D

Chris :04biker:

[nm6r]

Combination of throttle, rear brake and clutch. Believe it or not, when you get the feel of it, you can almost idle the engine and slip the clutch while using the rear brake to "stand you up".
It's just practice and time. You do not need to hold higher rpm's to complete a well coordinated lock turn. Higher rpm's do give you a better fudge factor if you tend to stall the engine though.


Jeff summed it up pretty well. Counterbalancing is the other trick to slow speed turns and figure 8's. The ST is surprisingly nimble at the slow speed stuff. We always ride 2-up so maybe that's an advantage for the figure 8's. Try the figure 8's with a passenger, maybe that will make it easier.

Ray
http://www.frontiernet.net/~st1300rider/smile04Bikerwheelie.gif

[Carl_T]

Taking a passanger, just make sure they know to stand up on the outside peg and get the inside foot and leg out from under if it goes down.

[dond]

This is a good look at "slow" speed maneuvers.
Watch the brake light and hand control work. Notice the rider looks where he wants to go.

Good STuff;

http://www.troutman.org/ftp/pub/motorcycle/videos/up5837.wmv

[Jeff F]

Link no work for me

[dond]

Link no work for me
It seems to have crapped out..sorry.

[mac-ST]

I took my motorcycle skills test on the ST less than a week after I bought her. 300 miles after a 17 year break from riding. The nice lady administering the test saw me on a big tourer and asked "are you sure you want to run this test on that?"

That slalom run was tough - and it was the only place where I lost points. About halfway through it I had to stab the ground with my left foot. The rest of the run was perfect, but I was sorely embarassed about that. I still have troubles with low speed maneuvers and take advantage of every empty parking lot to practice lock-to-lock figure-8s.
Don't forget to slide the cheek to the inside of the seat to assist in balance on the slo speed turns, I too took the Riders Course on the ST, and recieved the same doubt, but with good advice and some Mountain bike skills (Yep) it was fun... once I got the hang of it. But practice makes perfect!

[mac-ST]

Hey troutman,
Where else can we see the vid, never miss a chance to learn something!:bow1:

[EagleSix]

....try this link:

http://www.troutman.org/ftp/pub/motorcycle/

then select videos/

then select up5837.wmv

Best Regards....George

[dond]

....try this link:

http://www.troutman.org/ftp/pub/motorcycle/

then select videos/

then select up5837.wmv

Best Regards....George
STill down.

[wishey1]

Low speed manuvering on the ST-1300 seems to require more use of the friction zone than other bikes I have ridden. Admittedly this is my first fuel injected bike but I still find that to avoid abrupt power changes I hold a steady low throttle and slip the clutch more than I would on the CX-500 or other carburated bikes.

In the case of the 500, I could select 1st gear. let the clutch out fully and simply go lock to lock doing figure 8's in the driveway. The ST requires much more finesse in order to stay safe and in the box doing low speed figure 8's and turns.

How do ya'll manage your low speed manuvers on the ST? Is there a better technique to be adopted or is it just time for more practice?

Chris :04biker:



I have tried the rubber band thing and it works better for me so far.
Not saying it works in all manuvers cause I have not seen quite a few with it .

I just used the 1-1/2 inch wide rubber band that came with my throttlerocker
and put it half on the end bar with about half to 1/3 over the end of the handel bar. The bump induce jumping (like the bike was goosed in the ribs) was helped and it also helps on the turns, where I would shift into second and make the turn while letting out the clutch and giving it gas. Sometimes it would jump thru the turn. I had to brake to keep from going into the other lane........so the rubber band help this and you can't beat the price.

[MidLife]

I have tried the rubber band thing and it works better for me so far.

I just used the 1-1/2 inch wide rubber band that came with my throttlerocker
and put it half on the end bar with about half to 1/3 over the end of the handel bar.

Sorry to go on a tangent here!

I ran into the "rubber band" trick by chance, when strapping a Throttle Boss (http://www.ironbraid.com/boss.html) too far out on the throttle grip. The friction on the handle bar weight made it a very effective poor man's Throttlemeister.

Until, that is, the bar end weight started rotating with the grip! --> end of the experiment. Too bad, it worked so well.

Wondering if there is a way to keep the weight from rotating?

I checked: The weight is screwed on tight, with the lock profile engaged properly. It is what it engages to that rotates inside the bar.

Looks like the weight inside the bar is monted on rubber bushings and the friction of the bushings is all that prevents rotation. Which would mean that if I keep "rubber banding", the weight will get looser and looser as the bushings wear out?

Any opinions on that?

[MidLife]

After the failed Throttle Boss experiment and spinning weight, I gave a try to the Brakeaway some talked about on this board.

I have small hands, so no problem for me with the lost space on the grip.

Love it so far (just wish it was available anodized black instead of clear!)

[vnsfxr]

That's the ticket. Turbo City FPR made modulating the throttle much easier at slow speed.

This item is one that matches all claims.

Before the Turbo City FPR couldn't ride through a parking lot smoothly without slipping the clutch.

Also remove any excess slack in your throttle cables. They do loosen up over time.

[wishey1]

Sorry to go on a tangent here!

I ran into the "rubber band" trick by chance, when strapping a Throttle Boss (http://www.ironbraid.com/boss.html) too far out on the throttle grip. The friction on the handle bar weight made it a very effective poor man's Throttlemeister.

Until, that is, the bar end weight started rotating with the grip! --> end of the experiment. Too bad, it worked so well.

Wondering if there is a way to keep the weight from rotating?

I checked: The weight is screwed on tight, with the lock profile engaged properly. It is what it engages to that rotates inside the bar.

Looks like the weight inside the bar is monted on rubber bushings and the friction of the bushings is all that prevents rotation. Which would mean that if I keep "rubber banding", the weight will get looser and looser as the bushings wear out?

Any opinions on that?



ok.....I wasn't sure if you were saying you tried the rubber band fix or not and upon re-reading
I think you are saying you didn't try the rubber band fix you ruined your end weight bar with
the 'Throttle Boss'.......is that right...??

Folks, I want to again plug the rubber band fix........
the band I got with the cramp buster/ throttlerocker
is about 1' to 1 1/2 ' wide and goes perfectly half over the end cap
and half over the end weight bar.

No more drive lash........Now I know it's rubber and won't last forever......But,
No more 'goosed in the ribs' ST Motorcycle........try it,
you will like it.

:)

wish

[MidLife]

ok.....I wasn't sure if you were saying you tried the rubber band fix or not and upon re-reading
I think you are saying you didn't try the rubber band fix you ruined your end weight bar with
the 'Throttle Boss'.......is that right...??
:)

wish

Wish.

The "Throttle Boss" IS a rubber band. Look at it as rubber band with a small bump for resting the palm of you hand on it. It is only 3/4" wide, and sits at the end of the grip.

By "mistake" I installed it half over the end weight once, and experienced what you found out with your rubber band.

Except that I did not want to keep going with that because the end weight was rotating. It is not tight enough and I did not want it to become even looser. I do not think it came loose because of the rubber band (=Throttle Boss). I had noticed it was not very tight before. What is rotating is what the weight screws into, inside of the handlebar. Have no idea how to tighten that to prevent the weight from spinning. The manual is not much help on that.

No doubt I would have used your rubber band idea (using the Throttle Boss instead of the band) if the weight was not spinning (I need to fix that sometime).

I hope I was clearer this time!

[wishey1]

Wish.

The "Throttle Boss" IS a rubber band. Look at it as rubber band with a small bump for resting the palm of you hand on it. It is only 3/4" wide, and sits at the end of the grip.

By "mistake" I installed it half over the end weight once, and experienced what you found out with your rubber band.

Except that I did not want to keep going with that because the end weight was rotating. It is not tight enough and I did not want it to become even looser. I do not think it came loose because of the rubber band (=Throttle Boss). I had noticed it was not very tight before. What is rotating is what the weight screws into, inside of the handlebar. Have no idea how to tighten that to prevent the weight from spinning. The manual is not much help on that.

No doubt I would have used your rubber band idea (using the Throttle Boss instead of the band) if the weight was not spinning (I need to fix that sometime).

I hope I was clearer this time!


Sorry, MidLife, but the "Throttle Boss" doesn't LOOK
like a rubber band to me.
(see rubber band that comes with the throttle-rocker)

Also, you might try your local Honda shop to repair the end weight.
That's the sort of stuff they do for free around here.

Wishy

[MidLife]

Sorry, MidLife, but the "Throttle Boss" doesn't LOOK
like a rubber band to me.

Wishy

Have a look at the "universal" Throttle Boss:

(http://www.betterbikeparts.com/product_info.php?products_id=382).

It is not much more than a rubber band.

[wishey1]

Have a look at the "universal" Throttle Boss:

(http://www.betterbikeparts.com/product_info.php?products_id=382).

It is not much more than a rubber band.


Sorry, again, MidLife.
That is no more a rubber band than,
my rubber band is a Throttle Boss.

AND my rubber band isn't turning
my end bar, like your Throttle Boss did.

Now granted, one day it may do what your TB did,
but so far, so good!

.

[Tor]

http://www.ccso.charlestoncounty.org/Motor%20Movie_Web%20Broadcast.wmv

[Carl_T]

Very cool Tor, and they have the nerve to tease ME about U-turns. Very good skill display.