Delayed apex

[Actionfigurejoe]

How many here practice it? Been reading about delayed apex in David Hough's book, Proficent Motorcycling. Last weekend I tried to practice it. Yikes! Not an easy task to grasp. Apparently I've developed some very engrained driving methods that'll take some time to shake loose.

[BigBadblue]

If you mean what I think you mean, yes. Years ago I was out on a Sunday ride with a group from the old Fremont Cycle Salvage and some of us had to break off the ride to take care of personal commitments, one fellow that left with me that day was a very accomplished AFM racer and he convinced and taught me that late apex's were the smartest and safest way to ride on the street. It gives you the earliest possible preview of what is around the corner, for avoiding trouble such as road debris and other obstacles. It was the most valuable 50 miles I have ever ridden.

[wishey1]

How many here practice it? Been reading about delayed apex in David Hough's book, Proficent Motorcycling. Last weekend I tried to practice it. Yikes! Not an easy task to grasp. Apparently I've developed some very engrained driving methods that'll take some time to shake loose.

Could ya hum a few bars...?

Just kidding what is it, sounds interesting?

wish

[saaz]

By delayed apex do you mean taking street cornering lines, as opposed to racing ones? I was taught the difference between the too in the early 80s at a course. Street lines have to allow for other traffic, maximising vision around corners etc etc. Quite different to racing lines.

[Earache]

See pic

Red is late apex line while the white line is the classic apex line.

This was taken at Deal's Gap where you can't see around every corner, so the late apex line makes more sense.

I do it on my Duc, but not as much on the ST as I typically ain't going fast enough to make any use of it.


Eric

[BC Rider]

http://www.mgnoc.com/_overlay/Archives/much_ado_about_cornering.htm

There are some picture of the delayed apex lines at this site. You gotta squint a little to see them.

I agree that concentrating on doing something in a new way can be pretty tough. I find that I even have trouble consistently initiating a right turn from near the centre line, and a left turn from near the right side of my lane difficult. The issue for me is not ability as I can get it done if I concentrate - the bugger is doing it consistently without actively thinking about it which presumably is the habit I want to develop - ie. always do it the safest (theoretically) way. It will take some time to ingrain.

Mind you, much of this apex stuff comparison assumes the road surface is consistent or all other things being equal. I find that on my roads the lines are more often dictated on the basis of road surface, leaves, gravel, etc.

[dond]

Very good visual Eric. My problem is reverting to racing lines after a while in the canyons. Very hard to break the habit even though it's been many years since I've raced. I often start out fine but regress after a while. Those rides where I'm able to STay with late apexing are so much better and less STressful :eek:. I think it's the classic "old dog/new trick" cliche.
This thread has inspired me to put forth more effort and minimize this behavior. Hey, if I can quit smoking :p: I can change this.

[Earache]

Very good visual Eric. .

I'm a graphic artist wanna be:D

[clmixon]

Hey, See if RC or Joe can move this thread to the new Technique thread.

Chris :04biker:

[Actionfigurejoe]

http://www.mgnoc.com/_overlay/Archives/much_ado_about_cornering.htm

There are some picture of the delayed apex lines at this site. You gotta squint a little to see them.

I agree that concentrating on doing something in a new way can be pretty tough. I find that I even have trouble consistently initiating a right turn from near the centre line, and a left turn from near the right side of my lane difficult. The issue for me is not ability as I can get it done if I concentrate - the bugger is doing it consistently without actively thinking about it which presumably is the habit I want to develop - ie. always do it the safest (theoretically) way. It will take some time to ingrain.

Mind you, much of this apex stuff comparison assumes the road surface is consistent or all other things being equal. I find that on my roads the lines are more often dictated on the basis of road surface, leaves, gravel, etc.

Good diagrams. What helped me is to imagine the apex of the turn just out of sight as I "look" before beginning to "lean". As I move into the turn and spot the apex I begin to roll on the throttle. I found a nice twisty road on Sunday to try this technique. It's vastly different than racing lines. I found myself rolling on the throttle sooner as the technique began to make sense in my mind. The technique does give a better and safer view of the road.

[Ken]

Suggest this get moved to the Riding Techniques forum.

I've read both of David's books and have been a fan of the delayed apex concept for a couple of years. It takes quite a bit of self discipline to do the delay part of this technique. Even if I'm not carrying speed into a sweeper, I like using this technique because it gives me more view around the turn, later into the turn. It's also a really great feeling when you pull it off perfectly - it feels really smooth and I bet it looks the same from behind.

[STArnie13]

I did that before I ever heard of it called that. On a twisty road that you can't see very well it just seems the best way to go. Of course it depends on the road conditions as well. Some of those twisty roads can be pretty bad in spots.:eek: :03biker:

[Bones]

February's issue of MCN deals with some of this in the Proficient Motorcycling column.

[BluesCityST1300a]

Sounds like a better way to handle tight curves in places like Deals Gap. Thanks for the tip.

[wishey1]

How many here practice it? Been reading about delayed apex in David Hough's book, Proficent Motorcycling. Last weekend I tried to practice it. Yikes! Not an easy task to grasp. Apparently I've developed some very engrained driving methods that'll take some time to shake loose.


OK...I think I do that all the time, but when I'm on a double (4) lane highway.
yeah...If there is nobody in either of my two lanes, when I go around a curve, I go from the far outside of the outside lane to the inside of the inside lane. It makes me feel like I'm a racer!

[tricky_micky]

Guys

The graphic Eric posted is pretty damn good as it shows the rider coming off the correct line and he is now moving across to the right hand side of the road in order to 'T' the left hand corner which looks as if it is coming at the rider pretty quickly.

When holding the centre of the road on a right hander, one must always be ready to forego that position in the face of other traffic, and move in earlier in order to increase ones 'Safety Bubble' and equalize the safety margins.

Cornering is a technique that to me, is very valuable as it increases the radius of the corner and gives the rider an earlier view.

Always remember the saying 'Slow in Fast Out' but if you are new to this type of riding, I would suggest you take it one step at a time, bring your speed down. Get used to the feel of being out there towards the centre of the road on a right hander, be ready to come in if traffic is coming towards you. Light throttle as you go round the corner and as the 'Limit Point' opens up, then you can roll on the gas more.

This will increase the stability of the machine, and of course, it feels good!

You MUST get the speed right on approach and if you do not know the corner, bring it down a little more. Once you have the speed correct, then get the correct gear for the speed you are travelling at.

By applying all the elements of the 'System', you will be travelling at the correct speed, you will have the correct gear engaged, you will be on the correct side of the road, and you will be able to stop within the distance you can see to be clear.

Mick

[racer1735]

Human nature makes us want to always take the shortest route, thus cut the corner quickly - whether we can see around it or not. And to allow oneself to drift towards the outside of the lane prior to turning in is hard to break. But as mentioned several times above, if you practice 'slow in, fast out', it is much easier to grasp the concept and perform the function (whether on the ST or a Ducati or whatever).

[Carl_T]

I've got something I'd like to share on the subject, but Adobe Illustrator just ate the da _ _ thing. I'll do it tomorrow sometime.

[clmixon]

Guys

The graphic Eric posted is pretty damn good as it shows the rider coming off the correct line and he is now moving across to the right hand side of the road in order to 'T' the left hand corner which looks as if it is coming at the rider pretty quickly.

When holding the centre of the road on a right hander, one must always be ready to forego that position in the face of other traffic, and move in earlier in order to increase ones 'Safety Bubble' and equalize the safety margins.

Cornering is a technique that to me, is very valuable as it increases the radius of the corner and gives the rider an earlier view.

Always remember the saying 'Slow in Fast Out' but if you are new to this type of riding, I would suggest you take it one step at a time, bring your speed down. Get used to the feel of being out there towards the centre of the road on a right hander, be ready to come in if traffic is coming towards you. Light throttle as you go round the corner and as the 'Limit Point' opens up, then you can roll on the gas more.

This will increase the stability of the machine, and of course, it feels good!

You MUST get the speed right on approach and if you do not know the corner, bring it down a little more. Once you have the speed correct, then get the correct gear for the speed you are travelling at.

By applying all the elements of the 'System', you will be travelling at the correct speed, you will have the correct gear engaged, you will be on the correct side of the road, and you will be able to stop within the distance you can see to be clear.

Mick

Mick,

The great concept of the limit point and the the visual cue of the corner running open again is one that we all could use described in greater detail. Could you go into the visual cues on when it it time to roll on power in the Technique column?

Chris :04biker:

[tricky_micky]

Mick,

The great concept of the limit point and the the visual cue of the corner running open again is one that we all could use described in greater detail. Could you go into the visual cues on when it it time to roll on power in the Technique column?

Chris :04biker:

Chris

I will start to post a number of threads if that is okay with you guys and gals. What I will do is start you from the beginning as if you were a Police Officer here in the UK, wanting to go out as a motorcycle patrol officer.

My biggest problem is of course the minimum of 5,000 miles between us, as I am unable to take you out and demonstrate the features, as a demo speaks a thousand words!

I also appreciate it that if someone like Island Cop comes in with his thoughts and training techniques, might just differ to those here in the UK, but, his and the like comments would really be appreciated from my point of view, as I would get some understanding as to what Cops in the US have to go through compared with here in the UK.

To be a motorcycle cop in the UK, you must first have to go through all the advanced courses for cars. Yep, you are an advanced car driver before you become a biker cop.

First we must talk about the 'SYSTEM' and being 'Robotic....Look for the post on the 'System' and I will take it up from there.

Mick

[clmixon]

Notebook open, attitude adjusted and expresso ingested. Ready to listen and learn. Anything you want to reference, me and Amazon will acquire. Right now my library is pretty much Hough and Code.

Read the fighting the bars posts and others. Looking forward to a different view to real world problems on the road.

Now if only you drove on the correct side....:rolleyes:

Chris :04biker:

[tricky_micky]

Notebook open, attitude adjusted and expresso ingested. Ready to listen and learn. Anything you want to reference, me and Amazon will acquire. Right now my library is pretty much Hough and Code.

Read the fighting the bars posts and others. Looking forward to a different view to real world problems on the road.

Now if only you drove on the correct side....:rolleyes:

Chris :04biker:

That is my biggest problem Chris, it takes me a while to work out that you guys are on the wrong side of the road to us in the UK ROFLMAO

This is what this group makes it fun to post, we all understand the differences in locations, but willing to have a laugh about it!

Mick

[Tor]

Notebook open, attitude adjusted and expresso ingested. Ready to listen and learn. Anything you want to reference, me and Amazon will acquire. Right now my library is pretty much Hough and Code.

Read the fighting the bars posts and others. Looking forward to a different view to real world problems on the road.

Now if only you drove on the correct side....:rolleyes:

Chris :04biker: This is exactly what I had in mind when I begged for a forum like this. Heavy informative inputs from experts like Mick and others to explain "the nitty gritty" details of honing our riding techniques, and undo bad ones. It adds to a more safe and enjoyable ride.

[Bones]

What I will do is start you from the beginning as if you were a Police Officer here in the UK, wanting to go out as a motorcycle patrol officer.


Aye, sir, I'll be patroling the B-roads in Devon and Cornwall in my mind. Ready to roll on your cue. (Careful rounding that hedgerow...)

[tricky_micky]

Dudes....I shud be in bed!

Just started a thread on the 'System'

I know there are differnet theories, and I am open to all comments, but all talk and threads will now be based on the Police System UK style with an open thread for those such as Island Cop etc.

Mick

[Earache]

The graphic Eric posted is pretty damn good as it shows the rider coming off the correct line and he is now moving across to the right hand side of the road in order to 'T' the left hand corner which looks as if it is coming at the rider pretty quickly.



I was doing about 65 mph when that pic was taken. Dragging the rear brake a bit would cause the rear to drift outward and would tighten up my line a bit if needed. But the corner was clear and I was able to slide through with no brakes.

What makes this easy to do is the twin motor of my 996 - rolling off the throttle, even slightly, creates a huge engine braking effect. That, coupled with my fat ***, allows me to slow a lot in mid corner leans without touching the brakes.

Not as easy to pull off on an ST.

Looking forwards to your posts, Mick!

[Earache]

Another pic, this time from the front. I don't think it;s the exact same corner, but the lines are the same, etc.

Red is the late apex while white is again the classic "racing" line.

This was taken a little earlier in the turning process than the previous one.

[Carl_T]

This is absolutely nothing against Mick's system at all, I am eager to learn things they teach Motor Officers across the waters. This is just about what I do and find valuable now.

The attached chart is my personal way of setting up the road if I am in a mood to hustle (actually now that I think about it, even when I’m slogging along). I am not suggesting you try any of this, it is for illustrative purposes to explain how I ride only. However if you, completely on your own, decide to try any of these lines out, use your own God given common sense matched to conditions at all times. Try anything new at slow speeds first until they are not new anymore. Take responsibility for yourself and make your own best decisions and judgments. Don’t be saying I said to do this or that, I’m not saying do anything.

That out of the way, first the attached chart is of Generic turns with no features or obstacles calling for a change of line. These lines can’t be taken in turns with road hazards, traffic, or animal hazards, severe off cambers, etc. etc. It does not show reading the vanishing point for early warning of decreasing radius turns and then tightening the line, or when to get on the gas either.

The chart does visually illustrate what a late Apex is. The orange A is the center apex of the “Road’s radius”. In other words if a rider followed exactly parallel to the radius of the inside or outside of the road, THEN the rider’s line apex would be at the orange colored A on the illustrated turn, and matching the road apex.

The red A marks the apex of the rider’s line that he is taking. The red line is the line of the bike wheels on the road. You’ll see that the red A comes after the roads orange A does when moving in the direction of travel, so these are late apex lines.

The Blue dashed line “B” is the radius of the center of the rider’s lane in the turn, for me this is important, especially in unknown turns.

Geometrically it works out that if I take the exact radius of the “middle of my lane” in a turn, start it way over near the outside edge of the turn, it brings me close to the road’s yellow centerline at a late apex. Also fortuitously it is a late enough apex to start opening up my line before it kisses the double yellow, and exposes me to risks of traffic in the other lane.

This is also a good thing because on approaching a turn, a rider can set his speed for rounding “the middle of the lane radius (B),” run that radius from the outside of the turn, then roll on the gas in an expanding radius in the last part of the turn a bit before the rider’s line apex. That is at a time when the rider can see the turn open up for him.

Because of road position while on this radius, anything that might cause a rider to need to tighten his line should be well within vision at any point in the turn and so not come as a surprise. Since this radius is slowly bringing the bike towards the center yellow line (or double yellow) of the turn. If the rider needs to open up his radius for some reason there is room to do so, giving him maneuver room to open the radius around something at any point in the turn except upon entry (when sight lines inform what is in that portion of the turn anyway.

This line also puts the bike and rider on the outside entering the turn, for a better sight line, It keeps the rider away from oncoming traffic hogging his lane in right hand turns, and it keeps him away from the double yellow in left hand turns, at least until his sight line is adequate to see about oncoming traffic. If oncoming traffic is a problem the arc of the line allows for opening up the line some to stay away from the double yellow dividing centerline.

I made light purple sight lines down the road to show that the worst sightlines are on blind right hand turns, no matter what the Rider’s line within his lane, blind rights are the poorest for sight lines (in the USA that is, the UK it’s blind left hand turns). Some extra caution is then definitely in order on them.

My area is heavy vegetation and hills. It is full of 40 to 50mph blind rights. Even though you can avoid road hazards at that speed in them, an oncoming vehicle on your side of the road makes it a closing speed of 80 to 100mph. Now that means only seconds to react. When entering right hand turns I feel it is best to stay a bit inside of the yellow centerline on entry (like at least a couple of feet). It gives up a very small angle of sight line and gives the rider a small but useful extra bit of a cushion for the “in your lane sort of truck or car” at that point in the turn.

When a rider counter steers a bike it takes nearly a second or so before it really starts turning (only starts turning after it leans), add to that your reaction time and the very fast closing speed of an oncoming vehicle, well I don’t go all the way out to the yellow line in blind rights sight line or no sight line. Drivers in my area have taught me that well.

When it comes to right turns, this “center lane radius started on the outside of a turn” will bring a bike into a late apex right in near the inside edge of the road where you want to be (with a good road), when started from a ways inside of the yellow line on entry. The line also gives a useable sight line.

Again that middle lane radius started outside is a fortuitous aspect of geometry, helping a rider judge entry speed and set late apexes somewhat away from oncoming traffic. In addition this type line keeps a rider more away from “oncoming vehicle in your lane hazards” than other lines, except upon right blind turn entry where it does at least maximize sight lines. By the time a rider is rolling on coming out of the turn and opening his radius, he is in position to see if there is any oncoming traffic causing him to want to keep more inside and away from or not. If he needs to keep more inside, he just stays on maintenance throttle longer and opens his radius less (at that point in the turn staying on the same radius would have you running off the inside of the turn, you need to open it at least some by then, also a good thing at the end of a turn).

So you can see by looking at the graphic, that on right turns this type of line does a good job of balancing sight line with staying out of the way of traffic that might be part in your lane in blind rights.

On lefts it doesn’t call for going in near the double yellow until sight lines are very adequate for seeing if the rider should or not. If the rider shouldn’t, it allows him to slightly open his radius and stay away.

In strange areas I find this method of plotting a line very helpful with turns I have never seen before. I am going in at the same speed as I would if I rode around the middle of my lane, yet gaining the benefits of better sight lines and earlier applied stabilizing roll-ons, of late apex turns.

On approach I check the center lane radius, set my speed, plot the line in my head, point my nose so I can ride within a few inches of my line easily and hit my points on it, use “wide view” scanning (peripheral vision), vanishing point reading (to avoid getting caught out by decreasing radius turns, and seeing where the throttle can be opened), spot checking (for things caught in peripheral vision), and road/bike feel in combination.

Actually more than that, but this is about road lines from my point of view in the high vegetation environment I ride in. Again I’m not telling anyone how to ride, just sharing.

[tricky_micky]

Carl

Excellent graphics, took me a little to get to grips with it, but nice one.

Looking closely, and following the 'Red' line more than the others, wil make it easier for me to pass my thoughts.

The first 'Left Curve'. The red line is very close to how we would teach over here, however, I would advise to hold the right hand side of the curve longer as your line seems to come off a little early. If you hold the line longer, you will be able to throttle on earlier and you will be accelerating out of the curve and also you will be heading back towards the centre of your lane.

From your diagram, it shows the rider coming off the curve early and heading towards the right hand side of the road, in my mind I would prefer to be coming away from the right hand side if you get my meaning.

On a 'Series' of bends, you will find that if you hold the line a little longer (bearing in mind opposing traffic when talking a right hander), you can actually use the 'Apex' of the bend to throw you across in order to 'T' up the next bend if it is a left hander. If it is a 'Right' hander following in the series, you just hold the line as you are already there!

Hope that makes sense.

I have a few days off next week, so I will try and put a few diagrams together and post them on the board, I do have diagrams but of course they are UK spec LOL

Good discussions coming through and I always have it in mind that you never stop learning.

I also explain to students that advanced techniques are open to adjustments providing the rider knows what he or she is doing. After all, you can have two riders going round a curve, both riders are advanced riders, but they go round a curve in totally different positions!

On explanation from each rider, one tells the story that he when round that curve in that position BECAUSE.... The second rider gives his explanation that he went round the curve in this position BECAUSE....

Both riders are correct in my mind, as they have taken into account, certain elements of the road for instance, after a shower of rain, as the road surface dries, the advanced line round a corner may still be damp, but where vehicles have passed, the centre of 'Our' lane is drier because heat off the engines etc, dry that line out first.

So, decision is do we go out and ride on the damp section but ease a little speed off, still maintaining the extended view round the curve, or do we stay off the advanced line and ride on the drier section for the grip of the tyres on the road surface, but lose the extended view.

To me, both riders are correct as they have made the decision on what they can see and have taken into consideration what they are doing.

Sorry it was a long one, and I hope it makes sense!

Take care out there.

Mick

[Bones]

Thanks, Carl....Looks like our table-side discussion in New Hampshire with more detail. It's also easier to read than when it's on a napkin!

Thanks, Mick....Maybe you can look into a motor officer exchange program with Island Copp. You know, spend some time in California for the learning experience. ;-)

[Carl_T]

Hah, that napkin was ripping and not very precise Bones. :D

Mick,
I completely agree with your point of view, and enjoy discovering working methods from other riders. The more good variations you really understand and can adequately use through practice, the more options you have as a rider. If you can match those options to conditions very well, you do better overall. I hope you get time to make your charts, I’d very much like to see them.

I apologize for including so much information in that chart, that it is tough to read. I knew I had jammed it full, so I tried to color code it. Time was too limited for me to keep drawing new turns to present the information in a less cluttered way. I hope it wasn’t undecipherable due to clutter. :(

When I drew 2 lines from one label, the label fits the area along the line between the two lines.

A couple of things about these lines opposed to the alterations you mention (not to say they are more right than yours or any other system, just to clarify my reasoning).

Using the center radius of the lane for the radius of your own entry line, but starting your line with it on the outside edge of the road, geometrically allows the use of only one constant radius arc all the way around until near to the apex (which turns out to be just far enough away from the double yellow to insure safety in the average situation in left turns).

After the apex the radius is a slowly “opening” one that matches or corresponds well to the bike standing up under increasing throttle. When riding this type of line, at the point of my apex you will already be progressively on the throttle, allowing it to progressively stand up the bike. On this type line, the throttle can be safely engaged at some point earlier than the line apex in all instances (varies with the degree of bend). Of course I would only open up so wide at exit if the road appeared able to support that, otherwise I’d adjust.

The option is there to hold the first radius longer and exit later to stay away from the side of the road at exit, though the gas will be added later on this particular type of line then.

A later apex can be taken with very early throttle in the bend up away from the centerline, just as you suggest. But to do it, geometrically it needs the “corner squaring” method (on bends much more than 90 degrees) where you run a given radius starting outside, then need to tighten it a bit at the later part before the apex (squaring off place) so you can line up and come out straighter. This is a good fast method with much to recommend it (so long as you are ready for some degree of tightening to pull it off).

It can be a bit tougher one to use at speed on corners new and strange to you though, and so requires a bit more caution in the first portion of bends where the rider needs to come in slow enough to do the squaring portion of the line (or the ability to come in fast and then slow to tighten the radius mid turn). A slower entry is not a bad thing and is a good approach to safely cornering though. With a well done exit it can still be quick (slow in fast out).

On the method I tried to illustrate, the rider reads the radius of the middle track of his lane. He doesn’t follow the middle track, but instead he judges how sharp it is through an imaginary line around the middle of his lane.

Then he sets his speed for that degree of turning to do the bend with.

He enters the corner on the outside, and turns the same amount as would be needed if he “were” going to ride around the center of his lane, SO, he is twisting the center lane radius to be used from the outside of the road. It describes an arc like the red line I put on the charts. In 90 degree bends a rider has to start turning a little before the outside of the road turns, in bends that go around more than 90 degrees it is practical to start turning about when the outside of the road turns. Remembering the shape of the lines in relation to the outside of the road helps out at first. On bends that turn for a long time you need to stay outside for awhile to get that mid turn radius.

What I personally like about this system is that (for me at least) it aids me in handling unknown roads.

Upon seeing a bend I can know how sharp I will be turning early on, and set my speed appropriately (as sharp as a run around the middle of my lane would be). The only thing that can catch me out turn wise then (beyond road hazards, off cambers, elevation changes, traffic and such), is a decreasing radius at that point. However it can’t catch me out any worse for a given aggressiveness in the turn, than any other method, beyond going in much slower than needed, which you should always leave some margin anyway. That being the case I pay some attention to the vanishing point for decreasing radius clues.

I also like that the one constant arc can be held until the exit is seen opening up a bit before the apex, so I don’t have to judge an additional speed requirement for a coming radius change, like a square off in my line (again given optimal road conditions on a constant radius turn). I can judge for one entry and round the bend speed, and normally increase that on exit.

I like that in decent conditions the only alteration to my line will be opening it up rather than tightening.

I like that this line allows for good sight lines, and a higher rate of travel with less aggression than many other possible lines due to the ability to roll on the gas and start getting the bike upright relatively early in the bend.

The weak spots in the line is that the opening up of the radius option is not there at the early start and end of the bend, as you are starting near the outside of the road and ending near the outside. At least there is a clear view of the road in these spots so you can read if any hazards are on your line there or not, and alter the line before you get to these spots if needed. You need to be aware enough to check extra well for hazards at the entry, apex, and extreme exit.

The line is better than some and worse than others as to how long you spend well heeled over with your bike. It fits swooping round bends better than throwing the bike into them. Bikes vary in what they like in this regard. Both my current SV, and my former ST enjoyed this type of swooping arc. The ST however handled the alternative method of throwing the bike down into a lean quickly better than my current ride does (part of that is my current tires).

I don’t ride all turns this way, but I look at the option often.

[Carl_T]

Mick what you wrote about altering lines and choices brought the following thoughts on what makes a better rider.

Absolutely on the road, any number of random variables dictate changes from a generic line, sometimes radically. Having workable responses to those variables is key on real roads.

Come the spring snow melt around here, I will have lots of gravel, rocks, and sand patches on the lines shown, sometimes they cross the whole road. This can last to varying degrees for a couple of months. Some patches last the year round from wash down areas. The fewer the instances of these, the more dangerous the ones still left become, as they require the rider to give up complacency and continue to actively monitor road surface for early warning, as habit (while still doing other visual tasks which is why “wide view” skills are important).

Drop into a mental slump and just take the generic line without paying attention and suddenly you are practicing your front wheel slide response skills on a sandy patch around here in the spring.

I personally think a fundamental part of what makes a rider better and more safe than average, is their early warning systems, how good they are at always using them, how quickly they can formulate a fitting response, and how well they can execute that response with proper timing and smoothness.

As and example, lets take a rider reading the vanishing point (probably what you call the limit point) and it begins to close in on the rider warning him he’s in a decreasing radius turn, yet this particular rider doesn’t become aware of that, and doesn’t respond at all until he is already running out of road by the outside shoulder. Well, oops this rider is toast.

Take another rider with identical machine handling skills. One who notices the change the instant it happens, alters speed immediately upon that early warning, and does it smoothly but quickly considering available traction. Well, you then have a rider of equal machine handling skills, who experiences the same hazard, and goes around the same bend free of incident.

I personally believe this early warning… actually it is better named “early awareness of what is happening,” is a foundation skill present in every expert level rider. Traction and slides are noticed way earlier than average, instead of when the wheel is already 6 inches out of line. It would be shockingly rare to hear an expert level rider say of a slide “I don’t know what happened, suddenly I was just down on the ground”. The expert rider will know what happened from the first hint the wheel is increasing slip angle and “might” slide, all the way to the end of the result (whatever that is). All relevant things in the riding environment are discerned very early on, by “better than average riders.” They sense early warnings of what is "about" to happen and have a leg up time wise on doing something about it. Of course appropriate response, well executed, needs to go hand in hand with that.

Anytime I have been caught out at all, it is when I have been napping awareness wise. Early detection guys, practice it whenever you ride. Become sensitive in a life saving way.

This is why I have a personal rule that “when I catch myself making small mistakes, I back off the pace a bit right then and there and work on my timing, smoothness (which makes you concentrate and maximizes traction) and my awareness levels for a bit.”


Small mistake will not normally get you, HOWEVER, small mistakes in bad simultaneous combination, most definitely can.

So, avoid continuing at the present pace making a bunch of small mistakes on a regular basis. Use small errors as a warning sign to slow it up a bit, work on concentration, timing, smoothness, and skills at the slightly reduced pace. You shouldn’t be riding around consistently giving yourself little “oh ****s.”

This is VITALY important on group rides where the tendency can be to follow someone going quicker, at a pace over your head. Oops-es are natures way of saying back off to a pace where you time things better and stuff doesn’t get ahead of your brains processing power.

[tricky_micky]

Carl

What you and I are exchanging with our views, is exactly what I mentioned in my last post!

Two riders talking about advanced methods of riding and discussing situations where we are both correct. I just hope others pick up on what information is being passed.

We could talk about the 'Safety Position' and that is defined as:

The safest place for a rider to be on a road, having regards to the existing road surface, weather and traffic conditions.

Mick

[tricky_micky]

Thanks, Mick....Maybe you can look into a motor officer exchange program with Island Copp. You know, spend some time in California for the learning experience. ;-)

Love to, but I retired from the force 5 years ago after serving just over 30 years. Am now busy running a National Advanced Training Company and working with certain local County Councils, trying to figure out how to reduce motorcycle fatalities in their areas.

Mick

[Bones]

Love to, but I retired from the force 5 years ago after serving just over 30 years. Am now busy running a National Advanced Training Company and working with certain local County Councils, trying to figure out how to reduce motorcycle fatalities in their areas.

Keep up the good work.

By the way, my 6-year-old wonders if all motorcyclists in England wear helmets like the one depicted in your avatar. :D

[Carl_T]

Am now busy running a National Advanced Training Company and working with certain local County Councils, trying to figure out how to reduce motorcycle fatalities in their areas.
Outstanding! :clap2: :) Now there is a good job to have:D .

I just hope others pick up on what information is being passed. Yes, me too as that is what I was thinking of.

It took a lot of typing to try and get what would be clarified quickly and easily in person. That's one of the reasons why the concept of rider school is a good one, better communication face to face combined with individual observation.

We could talk about the 'Safety Position' and that is defined as:

The safest place for a rider to be on a road, having regards to the existing road surface, weather and traffic conditions.


I'm relatively ignorant of the system you are versed in. This seems a vitally important concept though.

I come from a motocross dirt racing background. The habit of constantly observing changing surface character and quality along with what the weather and other riders where about, was a matter of both survival and of race result as well. Environment reading and reacting to what is read became very ingrained, and the habit of environment reading came with me to the street. Environment being meant in it’s big concept of “the world as it is in your vicinity, with all it’s elements living and dead,” rather than just the weather or some such.

I used to walk the track checking the character of the surface for hazards, ditches, holes, big rocks, large whoops, square edged bumps, traction differences due to surface changes, elevation variation, radius changes, camber changes, places that gave either impediment or disaster potential, and places that gave advantage. Then you did the same thing dynamically while riding.

You did it constantly while riding, as dirt tracks change during a race like a living creature that moves, and what worked the last lap could potentially bite you the next. That or you could spot some new place with a better berm, or better traction. or some new advantage.

We ran flat out as hard as possible, sliding around in any sort of weather on any sort of traction through mud bogs, glop, sand, slippery clay, and wonderful gripping loam. You had to adjust for it all on the fly. At the same time if you didn’t have that big lead, you could have other riders with their own ideas and agendas trying to occupy the same place at the same time, so you had to know what they were up to, especially at the start of a race.
The street can be more hazardous to your health though as you have other people in body crushing vehicles, with their own agendas, going in the opposite direction.

Back to how racing is similar.
Your position on the track at any given moment in time, relative to all of this… your position relative to all of the environment as a whole (including other people)… was one of the more fundamental things determining whether you survived crash free or not, and how well you did relative to the other riders. There were plenty of other factors, but position relative to the environment was one of the keys to survival.

Riding line is contained within position.

Ergo specific riding line in relation to conditions as they are, (or rather as they unfold and reveal themselves) is one of the keys to survival.

My racing experience tells me any change in the environment brought into your awareness can demand a change in position rapid or otherwise (bike position, body position). It can also demand a change in other elements of riding as well, but position is what you mentioned.

Last October we had a high wind storm. I went riding next day and short pieces of tree limbs of varying sizes were heavily peppered all over the roads serving as square edge bumps and rolling marbles. Position and line relative to these numerous limbs was key to getting home safely. My diagramed generic turn line in the previous post went out the window to “Never-Never Land” that day, as my surface reading abilities were put in overdrive plotting lines on the fly as the conditions unfolded.

There’s a good long list of potential things found in your path to call for an alteration of position, including what size vehicles are around you, what they are up to, how they can see you or not, how they block other drivers view of you or not, animals and birds, weather changes (temperature, precipitation) surface hazards of numerous types, sun position, blacktop changes, etc. etc. etc. etc.

It seems to me that safe practice of changing position in varying types of places along your line might be useful (beginning of a turn, mid turn, exit, going down a straight etc.).

I guess a question I might ask for some others to write about might be then, what things would cause you to change your position, what would you change to, and why?

Anyway I’d like to read some things you have to say about position.

[tricky_micky]

Carl

I started a new thread with the 'System' and other points. What is needed is to keep things in a step by step situation for those that have never looked at or even heard of advanced riding techniques.

I have started a thread on the 'System' and follow ups that you would have to go through over here, and it starts with the definitions you have to learn, and that is before you even see a motorcycle.

Police riding UK style is about discipline, and the learning curve is almost set in stone so to speak. You learn the theory side of things before you go out there, and as they say, if you do not like it away you go and you are off the course.

It has been proven over here that taken into consideration the mileage and speeds involved, the Police method of riding far outways any hooligan style etc, hence me trying to move back to square one with the posts, and get into the 'System' which is applied to every aspect and situation on the road.

Your comments and explanations are brilliant, it makes others start to think and realise that between us, we are now putting a differnt light on motorcycling, because we are showing that you have to think and put into practice certain elements of riding a motorcycle that will make you a safer and better rider.

What readers of the posts must think is that NEVER SACRIFICE SAFETY for any other aspect of motorcycle riding.

Mick

Mick

[Carl_T]

NEVER SACRIFICE SAFETY for any other aspect of motorcycle riding You are preaching to the Choir here.

One thing any type of racetrack experience can show you is how insane it is to try and race on the street. The street carries far too many more dangerous, unpredictable variables, and far too many people in and out of vehicles engaged in their own very different myopic activities running counter to any possibility of a safe speed contest on the street.

In many ways racing was safer than everyday slow speed street riding. The track is way, way, back in my past now and while I like to ride briskly where it is safe to do so, high speeds (especially in a straight line) are no measure of riding skill, while keeping your backside (and the backsides of those around you) in one piece is certainly a measure of riding skill.

hence me trying to move back to square one with the posts, and get into the 'System' which is applied to every aspect and situation on the road.
I will be following it with deep interest. :yes:

[ChipSTer]

I stumbled onto this thread yesterday. Enjoyed it very much. Noted to myself to give it a try. I had been off the bike for about 10 days (lots of rain here) and I had ridden the bike to work (not much chance to try out the delayed apex technique on the way to work). On the way home (getting dark here about that time) I took a more scenic route home. I was doing the delayed apex technique (if it means going farther into the curve before initiating the turn and carrying less speed into the turn, then I was doing it right). Anyway, on the the actual point of this post. I spotted something in the line that I would have taken if I had been doing my regular boot-dragging riding. It was one of those big black rugs/placemats that are out front of businesses (or just inside the door). It was about 4 X 6 and almost impossible to see. I don't know if I would have been able to stay upright if I had hit it (it was right in the apex). :eek: But by delaying my entry to the turn, I was able to detect the object and successfully avoid it. WOW... Thanks for the scratch prevention! Probably wouldn't have hurt too badly... Only going about 25mph, but that would have hurt me and the bike (not to mention my pride and riding confidence)... This forum is great!
:04biker: :cool: :04biker:

[tricky_micky]

John

Glad it all paid off for you, and that you were able to avoid the debris.

Exactly what the technique is about, the delayed apex allows you to hold your speed more as you are increasing the apex of the bend and what is more important, you get that early view which gives you time to react.

Thanks for the feedback, it makes it all worth while posting on the forum when someone comes back with a story like you have done.

Stay safe

Mick

[coldoughboy]

See pic

Red is late apex line while the white line is the classic apex line.

This was taken at Deal's Gap where you can't see around every corner, so the late apex line makes more sense.

I do it on my Duc, but not as much on the ST as I typically ain't going fast enough to make any use of it.


Eric

Great use of picture for illustration:bow1: I need to convince my wife that I need to go to the gap to practice.

[Carl_T]

For those of you who like to read about how other people handle things, I thought I’d share, and post a clearer example of what I personally shoot for “late apex wise” in conditions that allow for it.

The series of diagrams illustrate the basic principal behind the way I personally approach plotting late apex lines. However there is an even more basic principal that takes precedence over this approach. That is “plot the line that the corner needs, given it’s own unique set of environmental variables.” In other words, I always look to adjust for what is there, or could be there, rather than blindly using this line system. Instead of this line type, I may pick a car track to ride in around in if it’s a very sandy corner. I may apex even later, I may run the outside and not dive in and accelerate until the apex is fully completely open etc. I try and use whatever my personal judgment tells me fits the situation best.

That being said, for me, these lines are what I hope to be able to run in a turn that allows them to be used.

For me, they allow some cushion between me and traffic, good sight lines, good speed, nice acceleration out of the turn, and importantly, a good degree of adjustability, since most changes needed would require an enlarging of radius rather than a tightening of radius.

If a rider is on maintenance throttle up to the apex and doesn’t roll on the gas until they are visually certain of their exit, a rider maintains a degree of line flexibility without needing to back off hard acceleration and tighten the arc, on these late apex lines, that’s a good thing.

I also posted what I like in a series of turns. In a series of 3 turns that you can see clearly through, I most normally give away the most speed in the middle one. Allowing for good margin in slowing on the first one, and nice pleasing drive out of the exit onto the straight of the last one (IF it allows).


Don’t say I told you to use these lines, I’m posting to illustrate the approach I use myself, not the approach anyone else should take. Riders need to use their own personal judgment when deciding upon an approach to riding. I would advise anyone trying any sort of new riding technique or idea, to do so at a greatly reduced speed with LOTS of extra margin for errors. Make your own individual determination what works or doesn’t work for you.

Of course I welcome any comments positive or negative on my own approach.

[Louie Louie]

Great STuff Carl...Thanks for posting it. Same Stuff I was learning at the Lee Park's class, w/ great illustrations.

[Carl_T]

That's interesting to hear Louie. I'll have to pick Todd's brain when I see him at NESTOC :D He's attending a Lee Parks Class in May.

[smilin' johnny]

"Sport Riding Techniques" by Nick Ienatsch covers a lot of this same ground and pretty easy to follow. Includes chapters on trail-braking as well. It's worth picking up or snagging from someone who already owns it. It made this thread a lot easier to follow.

That being said, I'm book marking this, too. Too much knowledge here for one sitting.

jb

[Carl_T]

I'm resurrecting this thread to post a new diagram due to a question in the thread “Left Hand Turns.”

In teaching my returning rider wife some riding tips, I needed a simple way to show her how to get a good line out of a long time duration blind turn where she did not know the turn and could not guess correctly where the late apex should be as the turn is blind and large.

This diagram shows what I told her.

Using the outside car tire track is useful for people who are loath to ride closer to the edge of the road entering a turn, and it also is normally a nice clean spot in the pavement, making it a reasonably safe spot to run. It is also far enough away from the edge that riders of any skill can learn to ride it successfully.

It still allows for a reasonable late apex and resulting early throttle on drive out of the turn. It keeps you away from traffic on left turns and so is a safe line to run.

It is a bit more risky line in right turns, but there it gives you a good view down the road and you can run a small bit more towards the middle for more traffic separation. The increased view should give time to dive to the inside in right hand turns should a vehicle appear in your lane. You need to run the right turns slow enough to allow extra lean for a quick countersteer to the inside of the turn should you need it due to traffic.

In both directions you need to run the outside tire track just slow enough to allow you to tighten your line a little bit at the point where you see the turn exit opening up. That is where you tighten the line temporarily to go inside towards the yellow line and apex. Just before the apex the line radius opens up so you can roll on the throttle nice coming out, making up for going a bit less than optimum speed in the outside tire track.

This type of line is useful to know about in areas where you don't know the turns.

[STumpy]

Carl, this is probably a stupid question, but I am going to ask it anyway.

I never quite know how much to slow down before entering a curve. Based on your posted illustrations, how much do you slow down before entering the turn? I am not one to do these curves at 90 mph like many here are capable of doing. But if I am doing the posted speed limit, is there a rule of thumb to go by?

Should you decrease your speed by xx% etc. ? My gut feeling tells me there is really no answer to give since there are so many variables. It has proven to be a challenge for me as I over compensate and enter way slower than I should. All of our curves or turns are pretty flat and open - not like the mountain type switchbacks or blind curves. I dont mean to put you on the spot with this question, but was hoping for some general advice?

[NormanPCN]

I never quite know how much to slow down before entering a curve.

If you cannot see the corner radius then about all you can go by are the corner speed signs if they exist. You can double those speeds with decent pavement. This is only an estimate. You will find that some 25mph corners are tighter than others so you might cut back on the entry speed if you cannot see the corner. If there are no coner speeds signs, and you did not have a sign stating twisty roads next X miles, then the "posted" corner speed is 55. Even in a twisty warning zone the really tight ones normally have a corner speed sign. At least in California.

[Burger]

You should always be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear. Therefore, you should enter a bend at a speed set on this understanding and the radius of the part of the bend you can see.

Blind corners are where the vanishing point comes into play. Not sure I can describe it well without a diagram, but look in front of you where the two edges of the road surface meet (they will on a blind corner). As you move through the corner, watch that point as it moves ahead of you (not the same spot on the road). If it stays the same distance from you then the radius of the curve remains pretty much the same as you're on. If it moves away from you in relation to your position then the bend is opening up and you can accellerate accordingly. If on the other hand it moves towards you in relation to your position then the bend is tightening up and you should either slow a little (on engine, not brakes) or lean further.

That's what Carl is talking about on his diagram about the vanishing/limit point.

Hope that description helps a little.

Regards,

[tricky_micky]

The 'Vanishing Point' or 'Limit Point' of a bend is a comlicated scenario, particularly to someone that is new to advanced riding techniques.

I have done Police courses and have the Grade 1 for cars and bikes over here in the UK and that is about the highest you can get. NO, I am not downgrading other riders at all, but the Police method of riding also takes you above and beyond the National Speed Limits, but they have built you up to that standard over previous courses, boy, I can relate to some of my courses where I prayed for 30 MPH signs in order to give me a breather and to think what the kin hell am I doing here, just as that thought crosses your mind you are back on the gas cus there is one of them diagonal black bands on a white background! The pooh in my pants just increases but at least I can now see over tha damn screen LOL

Now, let us loook at this in a simple training method. As Stumpy has posted, he is having problems working out procedures on approach. So now, posts go to Limit Points and Vanishing Points and this guy is bewildered and totally lost, and I would agree, it is above and beyond him at this moment in time and I do not mean anything nasty towards STumpy, just putting myself in his place.

First you must walk before you can run. The basic principles of cornering is slow in and fast out. If you do not know the severity of the bend, then you slow down a little more so keeping within your comfort margin.

Now let's look at the basic principles on approach to a bend, for a left hander US style, your best position is towards the right hand kerb edge. You get into that position as early as possible because it alows you to hold that position longer and it increases the radius of the bend and you get an earlier view of the road ahead, which gives you time to react to any hazard.

A right hand bend US style is to position on approach as early as possible, out towards the centre white line which again, will increase the radius thus giving you the early view of what is round the other side. What you have to remeber is that when you are out towards the centre, you have made a POSITIVE move on your positioning, and you MUST be ready to forego that position in the face of oncoming traffic, thus increasing your safety bubble away from them.

By using this positioning, you are making the curve longer, you are taking the long way round it which enables you to enter at a slightly higher speed than others, as the bend unfolds, you pick up the slack in the throttle and power the bike round so you are taking the bend under very slight acceleration without increasing speed until you can see it is safe to put more power on.

Wow, this could take all night! What you have to think of is the tyres on a bike. As you are travelling in a straight line, the outer circumferance of the tyre is in contact with the road surface. Now, the tread of a bike tyre is bevelled and curved. If you go into a bend at 30 MPH and hold the throttle in that exact position, the bike will slow down becuase as you lean into the curve, the radius or circumference is now smaller because you are running on the inner edge of the tyre, so to maintain that 30 MPH, you actually have to open the throttle a little, if not you will slow down. FACT!

So, STumpy, as you are approaching a curve, be it left or right, position accordingly as I have suggested, do it noce and early so that you have commandered the situation. So, we now have the correct position, now we need to reduce speed of the machine in order to take that curve. If you are unsure, bring the speed down a notch so you feel happy. Once you have your speed down, drop the bike into a repsonsive gear in order to take that curve, bear in mind, you can accelerate out of danger as well as accelerate into it!

Now, once you have gone through that procedure, wait until the curve evaluates itself to you, as it starts to open up a little, take up the slack in the throttle so the bike is just pulling without any increase in speed, this gives you the stability of the bike. As the bend opens up more, feed in the gas a little as you come out of that bend and ride back to your normal riding line position. This will give you maximum stabilty in a bend, having the engine just pulling slightly until the road opens and then you can pour on the gas.

Do this on some roads that you know, get to know how the bike feels as you pour the coals on the fire and open the throttle. Always stay withing your comfort margin so that you feel secure. If appraoching a bend you are not sure of, go through all the procedure mentioned, but bring that speed down a little more, as it opens for you, then pur it back on smoothly and gradually.

Limit Points come later, the basic principles of cornering techniques get sorted first. It is not everyone that understands limit points or vanishing points, so do not be alarmed that you may not understand them. I know about limit and vanishing points but I do not trust them, so you are not on your own.

Sorry it was a long one, humble apologies :bow1:

[tricky_micky]

STumpy

Carl has some great diagrams and explanations and I will be the first to back up his comments and values, but in your position we must come down to basics and build you up brick by brick. Build the foundations, the better the foundations, the better the building.

So I think you should look and learn from the diagrams from Carl, but come down to the basic principles of cornering techniques. Once you can understand those and put them into practice, we can build into you the limit or vanishing points. At the moment, and I am not being derogatory, but I think this is a little too deep for you at this moment in time. Riding is about enjoying first and foremost. Once that is established and the number one, then we can look at developing you further as a more accomplished rider.

Develop as you are doing, and that is at YOUR pace but never be frightened to ask questions and that is what you are doing now. On a motorcycle, we ride to a system and do things accordingly. I teach a simple system and to every question I am asked, there is an answer and why we do it. If there is no answer to that question, my attitude would be 'Why should I do it' that is when you get the response between a good trainer or a bad one.

[Burger]

Micky,

I can't agree with your dismissal of the vanishing point so easily. Unless I read it wrong, Stumpy asked how to judge the speed on an approach to a bend. Of course there are many factors to take into account but on a blind bend the vanishing point is one of the biggest. That coupled with the correct line as you detailed are the two biggest factors in correctly judging the entry speed and progress. In fact, a lot of people will already be using the information the vanishing point gives them subconsciously. By explaining it, it might help Stumpy and others to see it consciously which may help them judge speed much better.

It goes without saying that no one should ever approach any obstacle at a speed higher than they're comfortable with. As Stumpy said in his post, he feels he is approaching bends over cautiously at times. Therefore, I don't agree that explaining the vanishing point is trying to teach him or anyone to run before they can walk or ride beyond their capabilities. Explaining it to someone so they can look out for it and observe it is entirely different to instructing someone to ride at the limit of it.

You make the statement that you don't trust the vanishing point. I do understand that it simply doesn't exist on some bends, especially where the road falls away from you, but as I always want to learn more, I wonder if you could give other examples of where its not to be trusted.

As always, and I hope it goes without saying by now, I have the utmost respect for your opinion and advice but in this instance I hope you can see some sense in my reasoning.

Regards,

[John Anthony]

Great thread. We took a Street Masters precision cornering class at Willow Springs race track a couple of weeks ago and it was a huge learning opportunity for us both. We got some good classroom discussion on theory followed up by several hours of track work under close supervision. We started out slow - 20 MPH constant speed and progressed up to 45 MPH. The more laps we ran, the more comfortable I felt and in a more relaxed position, I found better lines. Heartily recommend this approach to others as it was a real eye opener for us.

John

[tricky_micky]

Just posted a damn reply and got booted off.

So I will put it in a nutshell.

Using STumpy as an example, he is a little confused as to all the information he has taken in from all of the posts. What needs to be done is to come back to square on with him and rebuild the foundations.

Information, position, speed, gear and acceleration are the points to come back to. The EARLY positioning for a curve, bringing the speed of the machine down nicely, and if you do not know the severity of the curve, then bring the speed down a little more so that you are happy with it.

Once you have the speed correct, get the correct gear to negotiate the curve safely. As the bike leans into the curve, take up the slack on the throttle so the bike is just pulling and as the road opens up, feed the power on. Did I mention limit point, nope do not need it yet as we are now bringing someone back to square one.

The rider has enough to think about getting the positioning etc done, also it is alien to a lot of riders to be in the position we are asking them to be in. Also, it is more important to be thinking about coming off that line in the face of any opposing traffic that may be a danger.

Once they are happy with that, then you may think about moving them a step further but they will get to a point of information overload and the brain will only take in so much information.

Me, it took me ages to work out the limit point, it is an art that needs practice and even when pracitised you must still be careful because if you are looking so far round a bend at a limit point, it just might take you off your line and put you where you should not be. Remember, 'Where you look the bike will go'

Gotta go, but limit points, build the foundations first then bring in the tech stuff later. As long as you have helped someone and lifted their riding to a safer level that is all you can do. The main thing is they are a safer rider, happy and enjoy their motorcycling.

[EagleSix]

Information, position, speed, gear and acceleration are the points to come back to.

Hi Mick,

Can you add to "information, position, speed, gear and accerlation" where the riders visual focus (primary attention) should be while going through the turn. if you could break it down in four locations; approach, entrance, apex, exit. That is, during the approach, where should the rider being placing his/her primary visual focus, then at the entrance, where should he/she be looking/seeing, then at the apex, and so forth? Thanks....

.
.

[STinner]

I thank God that all of you "experienced" riders are sharing your knowledge to help younger or older "un-experienced" ones from wrapping their bikes and bodies around some tree or guard-rail somewhere or ending up as somebody's hood ornament! leaning 700 plus pounds over centerline of vertical without some comprehension of the principles of gyro rotation, centrifugal force and gravity would scare the gajeebies out of anybody. one must understand some of these laws of mechanics or riding a motorcycle is as inconfeesible as how a plane flies! i have the books and reading you guys is fantastic, but first i go to parking lot and get used to the weight of my ST or anything else i've had in the past and i do circles. left then right then left again. i keep bringing it over until i feel comfortable then i start figure 8's. i usually spend an hr or 2 doing this and make smaller circles as i go. this has helped me negotiate unknown corners whereever i've ridin because it allows me to know the feel of the bike. i know that in the parking lot i'm not doing 60mph but how many guys can do deals gap at that speed. i havent but none of my parts are hanging on the tree of shame either. you crawl before you walk before you run! will be reading this forum for a good while! thanx!

[Austin city limits]

Well,,, here is my febble atttempt at "Delayed Apex"... Not sure I "Got R Done" though... ;)

Moonshine Farm boy taking curves!!! (http://www.photoreflect.com/scripts/prsm.dll?eventorder?photo=0HH6001R060028&start=0&album=0&adjust=-1)

You all know how they set the "Recommended Speed" of curves???

They set the speed so a Semi Truck,,,

Driven by Illegal Aliens,,,

On Bald Tires,,,

with Bad Brakes,,,

In the Rain,,, could go around the corner safely... :D

If the Corner speed says,,, 35 mph,,, and you are on a Harley,,, you CAN,,, go around the curve at 35 mph for sure... Why,,, I would say you could even get up to 40 mph... ;)

On a ST??? I can take ALL curves,,, 20 mph over the posted speed... Curves I know,,, above 20 mph over the recommended speed...

What,,, D R I V E S,,, me INSANE???

:::::short throw from the outfield for austin/terry as we all know:::::

To see a 35 mph curve ahead,,, and see 4 cars being held up following a Motorcycle through the curves at 28 mph...

:censored :Chair1: :f2: :rocket1: :coolit: :bsflag: :cus: :soapbox :banghead: :shtf1: :nuke1: :spank1: :mad1:

[STumpy]

....As Stumpy has posted, he is having problems working out procedures on approach. So now, posts go to Limit Points and Vanishing Points and this guy is bewildered and totally lost, and I would agree, it is above and beyond him at this moment in time ........

Wow, I dont know where to start? Mick you must be a damn good instructor, becuase you nailed it on the head! I am bewildered and lost.
Before getting the ST, I rode my bikes like most do. Never really paying any attention to the approach, apex points, limit points etc. I just picked a line and stayed with it through the entire curve. When I got the ST and started reading the posts, I realized there was a lot more to handling a curve than I ever imagined before. Not only that but doing curves etc could be a lot of fun! So I started reading books and posts. The more I read, the more I got confused.

Your absolutely right! I understand the limit point, but I can't really assimilate it in my head. I dont comprehend adjusting your speed to the motion of the limit point. When I try to do it on the road, I am like a fish out of water. I am sure some day this will all fall into place, but you are correct. I need to get back to learning the correct basics, then once comfortable with that, I can move on.

Thank you so much for your posts !! :bow1: :bow1: :bow1:

[STumpy]

[QUOTE=... What,,, D R I V E S,,, me INSANE??? To see a 35 mph curve ahead,,, and see 4 cars being held up following a Motorcycle through the curves at 28 mph...QUOTE]

Well heck I aint tbat slow, that would drive me nuts too ! :eek:

I just want to be able to get the most fun and speed out of turn and know I am doing it correctly ! :)

[Carl_T]

The limit point is, as Micky says, a different discussion, not because it doesn't apply (what Burger said is good information), but because it likely should have it's own thread (or at least go in with a vision thread). I’ll write this much about it in this particular thread. For me, it is not something to “chase” as some riders do (adjusting their speed to it’s changing relationship to them). For me it is a feature of the turn giving me important information on what is Likely to be happening with the radius of the turn very soon. It is also often a good distance to look in blind turns to gain maximum information about traffic and things in the turn, as well as slowing the sensation of speed for my brain. The vanishing/limit point likely deserves to be discussed in a thread on eye use.

STumpy has gotten a lot of great information to which I can add very little. I do have a few small things to add about my own personal way of judging entrance speed. Sadly, since I need to type it rather than speak and show, the concepts will be few, the words will be many. Late apexing is also in this thread, so I’ll write some things on that also.

First we are street riding so the following is how you tell if you are setting speed correctly or not. IF you are going round the turn at a lean angle you WANTED, and are able to run your intended line with just a tiny bit of gas on, or run it “slowly rolling on throttle”- bit by bit through the turn (turn duration depending), you have done a good job setting entrance speed.

If you can really roll on a healthy amount of throttle through the whole turn, you are likely setting the entrance speed a bit extra conservative (which you may NEED to do early on in a riding career, or simply may intend for extra safety margine).

If on the other hand you have to roll off the throttle (especially for the first part of the turn), you have misjudged and gone in too fast for that turn configuration, and need to take that into account next time you judge for a similar radius turn.

The preceding is a good way to generally judge how you are doing with your street riding entrance speeds in general.

For now STumpy, do remember “eyes up to where you need to go” rather than looking too close to the front wheel. Pay attention to surface problems yes absolutely…. but in general “eyes up looking through the turn far enough away,” nose pointing where you intend to be heading.

In near future, when I get more time I want to post on how I personally use my eyes in a turn to help me maximize control, and others can do the same, as it’s a good discussion to have.

I believe you should always have a place you intend the bike to go and an intended line to get there set mentally for all turns. You should also learn enough to know why you are choosing the line you are choosing.

A rider should endeavor to learn (understand why, how, and memorize the information) about late apex lines and begin short daily practice sessions at SIGNIFICANTLY reduced pace in a low traffic area, when learning how to use them. If you start doing them going quite slowly you will get used to plotting them. It’s a good exercise if slow cars up ahead have blocked your progress for a bit also. Just focus on running good lines at the slower speed until a good passing opportunity presents and you get past the slow moving cars.

Austin City, it looks like you didn’t hold your wad quite long enough, or get inside quite far enough at apex, but still photos can be deceiving.

[Carl_T]

Some info. on late apexes in general:

An apex as it’s most commonly used, is the spot in the turn where your line of travel comes closest to the inside of the road/turn. A late apex turn is starting on a line that begins towards the outside of the turn. It then tightens running a radius that brings the bike inside, until the bike comes to the inside of the turn at one spot (apex) past the turn’s middle, and then widens back out some amount, often, back out progressively, all the way to the outside of the turn again on exit.

A late apex turn allows the line to run a much straighter path from apex back out to the exit point at the outside of the following straight. Since the path is straighter, the throttle can be applied progressively more heavily along it, than could be done at other places in the turn (fast exit part, of, slow in - fast out).

The cadence is start on the outside of lane/turn, tighten down closest to the inside point after the middle, drift back towards the outside at exit (if traffic and upcoming turns allow).

What makes a turn a late apex is, the apex (portion where the bike comes closest to the inside of the turn) is chosen to happen well AFTER the middle of the turn (after the mid point/halfway point of the inside road arc). If you are coming closest to the inside before, or at, the middle of the turn, you have not managed a late apex. It normally requires a bit of extra staying outside early on, than other lines. Late apex turns will also tighten/diving down into the apex on a bit of a tighter radius than many other lines. However you gain back speed lost running the tighter arc to the apex, at the widening straighter arc to the exit. You also get less lean angle on the exit for it as well. Much better sight lines is an important bonus to this type of line.

[Carl_T]

Back to speed setting:

I personally set my turn speed by a particular line radius and do it the same every time regardless of turn type with the exception of a KNOWN decreasing radius turn. In those I set the speed that will be needed for the tightest part of the tightening bend.

Upon approach to turns in general, I look at the center of my lane and mentally draw a line, as if I was actually going to ride around the bend IN the exact center of my lane (which I am not actually planning on doing). I see how sharp a bend that line is taking (how small a radius the arc is on). I set my speed so (if I wanted to) I COULD ride (at a decent speed) right on that line in the middle of my lane, all the way around the turn.

I set speed that way consistently and use this method every time. That means with every turn, experience tells me whether I did it decently or poorly. The consistency of method helps me to get good at speed setting through constant repetition and feedback with how I did the last time.

My personal method most of the time is to move the centerline radius to the outside of the turn as per the lines I’ve diagramed and run that (which most often brings me to a good late apex). So, I’ll be running a middle line arc from the outside making “mid lane arc” an extremely compatible, consistent, safe, method of setting speed.

HOWEVER, back to STumpy, who doesn’t need to ride those more complex lines quite yet, until more practice is had. There is a good intermediate method which is also outstanding for blind turns that go round, and round, and round.

Stumpy, you (and me in large blind turns) can ride the line I diagramed that I taught my wife. It’s the one labeled “Simplified line for turns where apex is hard to locate”, it’s the last diagram I did in this thread.

You can use that method for now. It will give you “extreme” late apex turns on shorter duration turns. You may even have to simply remember to apex well after the middle on visible, short duration, 90 degree turns. However, the outer tire track method will give you practice with late apexing of a type, and straightening out the last part of your exit for a bit of extra acceleration. It will ready you for going to more complexity later.

Ride around the outside car tire track, when you see the exit is about to open up mentally draw a line that goes from where you are, to the inside of your lane (3.5 feet off the center line in lefts (so your head isn’t hanging in the opposing lane as you lean), and back to the outside of your lane. On rights you can come closer to the inside of the lane at apex since that is away from traffic.

When running this type of line to the Right on LONG lasting blind turns it may be prudent in the first parts of the turn, to run a bit more towards the center from the outside tire track, to give extra space for any “in your lane vehicle” coming the other way though. As Micky said, you will need to be ready to go inside more to avoid them (another good reason to set speed for a center lane radius, you will have extra lean angle in reserve).

You can still set your speed for an arc radius equal to the running the center of your lane, and run the outside tire track. That will put you going just a tad slowly for running the outside tire track. That tad of slowness will allow you to tighten your line when the exit nears, to dive down into the apex, hitting a bit of an extra late apex. Then the line will straighten more as you head towards the outside of the bend as you exit. That is where you will be going straight enough (an at less of a lean angle than before as the bike straightens up out of the turn) to use some nice throttle roll on. You will be able to roll on sooner than IF you just rode the outside or inside tire track all the way round. This line will always be useful in big blind turns which are hard to prejudge, and will get you practiced, to refine to even quicker lines should you desire to learn them.

On short duration 90 degree turns that don’t last long, you want to apex (apex = point where you come closest to the inside of the turn), you want to apex at some point well AFTER the center of the turn (probably a goodly amount after), then drift somewhat towards the outside under appropriate throttle roll on.

Summary:
If the turn is clear, set your speed for running the middle of your lane (taking into account to keep speed within stopping distance for how far you can see ahead). Run the outside tire track until you see the exit is about to open up, then go down to apex and progressively straighten out to exit point.

On short duration low degree of bend turns, which you can see through, this sequence happens too fast. It’s likely more efficient to simply plot a line to an apex point, that is down past the midpoint of the turn. The more degrees of turn duration the farther past the midpoint the apex should be set. A short visible 180 degree hairpin has the apex much farther past the turn midpoint than a 60 or 90 degree bend.

It’s harder and longer, to write and read this stuff, and easy to speak, show and draw.

[tricky_micky]

Having regards to all the posts and taking in the information about limit points and goodness knows what.

Thinking about what Dave (Burger) posted and regards to STumpies thoughts, I went out today and rode in a particular manner, with a student following me on a demo ride. He did not know what I was thinking, he only heard my commentry.

I have film to prove my training methods and this guy I had proved my point. The Limit Point does have a play in the part of planning and riding techniques, of course it does, but for a newby to advanced riding techniques, as a trainer, we have to consider how much the client knows and is capable of the information they can take in at any given point.

At that, I will follow up with a full report but it is now 3am here, I have just put together the video sessions of the client I had over the past 3 days, and the transformation is incredible. A lot of hard work has been put in both by my cleint and myself, the video footage proves it.

But today did bring a smile to my face as I had only my good friend Dave (Burger) in my thoughts in the first section.

Report to follow but it is time I said goodnight Jon boy, gudnight pa, gudnight billy bong, gudnight Lou Hellen and anyone else that is reading this damn poop.

TTFN

[zoomzoomzoom]

Carl, this is probably a stupid question, but I am going to ask it anyway.

I never quite know how much to slow down before entering a curve. Based on your posted illustrations, how much do you slow down before entering the turn? I am not one to do these curves at 90 mph like many here are capable of doing. But if I am doing the posted speed limit, is there a rule of thumb to go by?

Should you decrease your speed by xx% etc. ? My gut feeling tells me there is really no answer to give since there are so many variables. It has proven to be a challenge for me as I over compensate and enter way slower than I should. All of our curves or turns are pretty flat and open - not like the mountain type switchbacks or blind curves. I dont mean to put you on the spot with this question, but was hoping for some general advice?
Checking my GPS helps a lot.

[STumpy]

[QUOTE=Carl_T]Back to speed setting:

..........Stumpy, you (and me in large blind turns) can ride the line I diagramed that I taught my wife. It’s the one labeled “Simplified line for turns where apex is hard to locate”, it’s the last diagram I did in this thread.......QUOTE]


Thanks Carl! Between your posts and Mick's I think I got some great starting points to work on. As I posted earlier, prior to getting the ST, as I approached a turn I just kept the same line throughout the turn. After getting the ST and reading many of the posts here, I realized there was a hell of a lot more to turning than just staying on the same line.

Some of you referenced some good books which I read. Of course the more I read the more confused I was getting, especially when I tried to put to practice what I read.

My first big error was assuming the apex was the dead center of the curve. Obviously that didnt work out too well. Then I was taking my line or approach just the opposite of what I should have done, and lastly I was approaching way too slow. I was lost and confused, but I knew I wanted to learn how to do it the right way and continue to improve my riding skills.

Up until now, my expertise has been with precision slow drill. I belong to a drill team and we have done pretty well in the last 4 or 5 years. But precision slow drill does not teach you how to ride twisties or handle turns the way they should be handled. Old habits are hard to break, but I am anal enough to spend all the time needed to brake those habits. If I have a bike that is designed for great turning etc, then I want to learn HOW TO DO IT RIGHT!

What makes this forum so great is that it provided a source for me to go! Both you and Mick have cleared up so much, I cannot begin to properly explain it. Well, you both have given me some great starting points, and I have got a lot of work to do, so may as well start now before it starts raining.

Thanks for all your advice and help! ;) :bow1: