First Observed Ride [Archive] - ST-Owners.com Forums

Burger

02-13-2006, 05:29 AM

Went for my first observed ride at the weekend in my training for my IAM test here in the UK. I was very relaxed because despite some comments I've read here I won't ride beyond my abilities for anyone no matter how good the person following me thinks they are.

It was a cold day, almost freezing, and as I live in the middle of the countryside, there can be anything lying in the middle of the road round the next corner. This meant that I was also riding allowing for the conditions.

The ride lasted for about 2 hours and we covered about 60 miles on many different types of roads stopping every now and then for a debrief. Overall my observer was pleased with me and when I asked if he thought I wasn't making suitable progress I was delighted with his reponse. He said that I was making excellent progress taking into account the conditions. My lack of brake lights going down twisty hills etc. showed that I had the bike in the right gear and just because the speed limit on that stretch of road was 60mph, he felt I approached each stretch and bend at the right speed (around 40mph) and maintained a good line taking into account the conditions.

So despite reading how the IAM like to push people to maintain the speed limits I'm pleased to say my experience so far is very different.

His main criticism of me was that he felt I didn't do a shoulder check often enough (look over my shoulder). He could see I was using my mirrors well but said I do need to check my blind spot more often. The trouble I have here is that I find the mirrors on the ST so good that I generally only check over my shoulder on extreme manouvres... so there's a bad habit to break.

Other than that he said I looked like a born natural and that with more practice I should have no trouble passing the test.

I'm looking forward to the next ride.

Regards,

nurseBob

02-13-2006, 12:39 PM

Burger,

Congrats on your "observed" ride. Sounds both fun and useful. As to the mirror vs. over-the-shoulder, well, I have to admit I'm probably even worse. I probably use the add-on convex mirrors as my double-check far tpp often...
At any rate, it sound's like it both a satisfying and educational day. Woo Hoo!!!

Bob

Clair

02-13-2006, 05:17 PM

Congrats!

Pardon my ignorance, but what's an IAM and why do you need it?

Burger

02-13-2006, 05:33 PM

Congrats!

Pardon my ignorance, but what's an IAM and why do you need it?

IAM is the Institute of Advanced Motorists or in this case Motorcyclists. It is a registered charity in the UK that exists to promote better driving and riding standards. No one needs to become a member of the IAM but if you want to then you must pass their test and be invited to become a member.

It is a recognised qualification in that many insurance companies will offer you reduced premiums for having passed the test. The IAM promote riding to 'The System' as Mick started to describe in another thread. These are the same riding techniques and practices used by the Police force here in the UK as well as other professional motorcyclists.

I have a few reasons for wanting to do it...

I want to be a good rider and at the same time a safe rider giving myself and my wife the best possible chance we can have on such a great mode of transport.

It is a challenge and something to strive for while at the same time having a blast riding the ST and meeting and mixing with plenty of other like minded people.

I think in the future I would like to be able to help educate others as an observer or instructor in the interests of promoting safety and enjoyment on roads that are becoming far too crowded.

I know that the IAM is frowned on by some people in the training business but in my case it was highly recommended to me by my local police - many of whom are members. When I attended a one day Bike-Safe course last year and expressed an interest in wanting to learn more, they recommended the IAM without hesitation.

Also there is a group within easy reach that are very sociable bunch of people and who do far more than just train people. Organised group rides, social evenings etc etc. I will continue to go on observed rides until my observer thinks I am ready for the test which will hopefully be sometime this summer.

Hope that answers ok :)

Regards,

tricky_micky

02-13-2006, 06:06 PM

Dave

Well done.

It sounds like you may have a good observer! I know that TVAM are a very good group and are about the largest in the UK, however, I myself, still question the qualifications of some observers!

I am not out to knock them down as I have been an examiner for the IAM for some years, but I have also heard of some horror stories from test candidates about some of the things that they experienced during their course.

Remember, no one, and I mean no one can produce a Police Rider unless of course, you are on a Police Course and that would mean you are a Police Officer in the UK.

Most accidents happen whilst overtaking or on bends and corners, so this 'Push Push' attitude of some of the observers is a joke! When I take a client out, I first drum into them that speed limits are a must. I do not care if they miss an overtake because they have just seen some large chested blonde at the filling station, to me, that shows their observations are getting better.

However, when they do make an overtake, it is slick, safe and spot on. My outlook is to produce a 'Safer, Better Rider, that rides to the Police System' of motorcycle control and enjoys their riding to the full.

Ask your observer if he knows about the 'Step Out' method of overtaking and see what he comes up with. That would be interesting, well to me it would anyway.

At the end of the day, I wish you all of the best, sounds like you are doing fine. Take care and will be interested on your updates.

Mick

Burger

02-13-2006, 06:26 PM

Thanks Mick,

I will certainly ask my observer about the 'Step Out' method of overtaking and happily let you know what they say. My next ride isn't until the first weekend in March unfortunately due to my own work commitments. The group I am signed up with is WABAM (Wilts and Bath) as I am much nearer to them than TVAM but I do agree they seem to have the right attitude and especially with my observer I feel very comfortable so far.

I would love to become as qualified as a police motorcyclist but as you say... not much chance of that :)

I'm sure IAM instructors, observers and for that matter examiners are like all people in all walks of life - good ones and bad ones. In my own case, if I ever felt someone was trying to push me beyond my own comfort zone I simply wouldn't let them. That's not to say I won't push myself or strive to improve, merely that I will do it at my own pace in my own time. If the IAM test were all about pushing to achieve maximum progress, I wouldn't be interested.

As a matter of interest, he scored me 10/10 for my observation of speed limits and 10/10 for my awareness of road, traffic and weather conditions. I scored only 7/10 for my progress in built up areas because I tried to be smart and prove I could filter at a set of lights and ended up slap bang behind a large bus. Perhaps that puts his attitude into some perspective.

Regards,

tricky_micky

02-13-2006, 06:48 PM

Dave

About filtering......when you get to the test and before you go out there with the examiner behind you, ask him what he thinks about filtering and would he expect it on test!

I woud go out on test and tell my candidates NOT to filter. If I thought it was safe in some scenarios, I would tell the candidate on the radio, that I would ride passed and lead them through so taking the onus off them in order to make sure things were safe. It is very difficult to teach filtering, the onus is on the rider!

Best of luck.

Mick

tricky_micky

02-13-2006, 07:46 PM

I give up... what's filtering, Mick? Lane splitting?

A quick explanation is where you are approaching a set of traffic lights and there are maybe three lanes on approach. All the lanes have stationary vehicles in them, so a biker may come up beyhind and decide, I want to be at the front of the queue. So the rider then decides to go between the staionary vehicles and 'Filter' to the front of the queue.

Hope that helps in the explanation.

Mick

Clair

02-15-2006, 02:47 PM

Okay, then Filtering (UK) = Lane Splitting (US)

May I assume you "filter" only at stops or during moving traffic too?

Lane splitting is illegal here in the States except in California where it isn't illegal. Kind of a fun legal play on words there. Basically leaves it up to the police to determine if what you did was safe or not. It's not "legal" but nor is "illegal". LOL

I like the concept of the test ... having someone follow you and critique you. In some ways I wish we here in teh states had a course similar to that, say as part of the MSF. BRC for beginners, ERC for advancing once you had your own bike and then ... ARC or something for "advanced" riding. SOmething that took you out of the parking lot, watched you on real streets, and so on. I have excellent riding friends, some of whome teach at MSF, and I will occasionally have them critique me, but a course would be cool.

I love this site, but see I'm gonna need a US-UK dictionary. LOL

tricky_micky

02-15-2006, 06:32 PM

Clair.

You would not believe some of the 'Filtering' that goes on over here in the UK, some guys have a 'Death Wish'. :eek:

Okay, some might say I am a sad old git because I am careful and considerate in my riding techniques. I will not filter unless the traffic is stationary, and it is safe for me to filter through. And then, I take my time and do it at a sensible speed. My thoughts on this is that whilst I am moving through traffic slowly, other drivers look and comment 'Bas^!rd, lucky Bas^!rd, I wish I had a motorcycle to get through the traffic' :butt1: Show them your tail pipes!

To me, that is a good reaction because drivers drool and wished that they were on a bike. Now lets look at the idiot that decides they could not give a darn F*^.k :headbang: about anything, and they go through and filter at quite high speeds, not having any consideration to drivers opening doors, pulling a 'U' turn or even throwing a cigarette butt out of the window that lands inside of your helmet, that is an accident looking for somewhere to happen :mad: :amb1:

Those riders annoy other road users because they are being stupid, and of course they are.:nuts1:

I have travelled the motorways over here, much the same as all other St Owners on this forum that are here in the UK, and we can all talk about 3 lanes of heavy traffic on the motorway, lanes 2 and 3 travelling at about 70 to 90 MPH. You make your choice and go with the flow, making sure you have a safe distance from the vehicle in front.

All of a sudden the 'Nutter' :nuts1: comes into your rear view mirror, and he is bouncing in and out of the traffic, filtering between lanes two and three at speeds well in excess of 100MPH in order to get through, what an idiot.

I just sit and let them get on with it because I know that if the chips were down, I would probably ride the pants off the guy, but then again, I love life and I do not want to die!

Filtering is an art, we ride motorcycles to have the ability to get through traffic as and when it is safe to do so, so we do it. Filter inconsideratly then face the consequences should anything go wrong, and do not blame anyone else but yourself.

Mick

chris92

03-21-2006, 01:48 PM

Hi Burger

Also had my first observed ride last Sunday. 2 hours and was pretty good. The guy following was a nice guy and we concentrated on the positioning part.
Went well but am having a hard time being so close to the kerb on right handers and the middle of the road for lefties

Didn't mention anything else to me due to information overload.
Am looking forward to Sunday for my next one.

Keep up with letting us know how you get on up to your test

Chris
:biker:

Burger

03-21-2006, 02:32 PM

Nice one Chris...

I agree, the kerb side can spook me sometimes. I'm fine in the middle of the road, but to me the kerb always looks very unforgiving. Also, with living in the middle of nowhere, I'm very used to kerb or gutter being full of muck and mud which could catch you unawares. By forcing myself though, where I consider it to be safe, I have noticed the smoothness of my riding improve tremendously over the last couple of months.

I think the key to this is that like all of the system the position is an ideal to consider taking into account all the other aspects. So while kerb is ideal for a right hander, it may not be ideal because of the muck. Likewise, the middle of the road is great on a deserted road, but not so bright with the cab of an artic heading for you. Even with all the resultant repositioning, I still feel much smoother than I ever did before.

Good luck too, and please keep us all posted of your progress.

Regards,

tricky_micky

03-21-2006, 02:41 PM

Chris/Dave

Re the positioning for left and right handers, keep working at it! I know it is a little daunting at first, but dont give up trying it out.

If you see a large HGV coming towards you whilst you are out towards the white line Chris, you should be moving away from it slightly in order to increase your safety bubble.

Also, like you explained Dave, if you are riding in an area where you suspect mud etc in the nearside, then you should not be riding there!

So what you have both explained in your posts is CORRECT when you think about it. However, if all is fine, then keeping working at the extended positioning, it will come and you will get more confident as time goes on.

Putting both of your posts together, you have to remember the 'Safety Line Position' and that is 'The safest position for a rider to be having regard to the existing road surface and traffic conditions'

You have both conformed to the above definition, so you have done nothing wrong because you have taken these elements into consideration.

Mick
Director
UK Advanced Ltd

Horst

03-21-2006, 02:55 PM

"I love this site, but see I'm gonna need a US-UK dictionary. LOL"

No need ... this is where Canadians come in :D

Lorry (UK) - Truck (US)

Bangers'n'Mash (UK) - Burgers'n'Fries (US)

A Pint of Ale (UK) - A COLD BEER (US)

He he ... we're the world's greatest peace keepers :)

tricky_micky

03-21-2006, 03:05 PM

"I love this site, but see I'm gonna need a US-UK dictionary. LOL"

Lorry (UK) - HGV (UK) = Truck (US)

He he ... we're the world's greatest peace keepers :)

Just thought I would bring you up to speed on the new one.....HGV(UK)....Truck (US) :D

Full translation is Heavy Goods Vehicle, also goes under LGV = Large Goods Vehicle or is sometimes called 'A Wagon' :eek:

Enuff fer now LOL

ccryder

03-21-2006, 03:08 PM

Very interesting concept of the "Observed Ride". We have that here in the US when you drive a car but with M/C's they just have you run through some cones and turn you loose!

About 30 years ago I was taking a driving test in downtown Oklahoma City. There were lots of one-way streets. Even on one-way streets I looked both directions. The "Test-giver" remarked that I was wasting my time looking where traffic should not be and thus not paying attention to where it should be. About 10 streets later I stopped at a green light on a one-way street that was one-way from my left to right. The "Test-Giver" told me he wa going to dock me points for stopping at a green light and looking the "wrong" way. Just about that time a good sized delivery truck came from the right (wrong way) and ran through the intersection. If I had proceeded the "Test-Giver" would have had that truck in his lap. After he got over the near miss, and composed himself, the "Test-Giver" informed that I had passed the test and it was time to head back to the office.

After he signed my test sheet I asked him if I was looking the wrong way when that truck almost hit us? He replied that he would never make that comment again.

This was in a "cage" and I have learned a little in the last few years. 110% defensive driving is a requirement, 2 wheels or 4.

Time2Work
Neil S.

Horst

03-21-2006, 03:19 PM

"but with M/C's they just have you run through some cones and turn you loose!"

Used to be the case here (Canada) too ... now we have the 'observed' ride complete with radio comms from instructors.

time has indeed moved on .... :biker:

tricky_micky

03-21-2006, 03:30 PM

Horst/Neil

This is a different test that Chris and Dave are going for. They are looking at taking and passing the Advanced Motorcycle Test which is a bit different to the learner rider test I think you guys are talking about.

There are different levels of Advanced Riding over here, but whatever level, they are all higher than the normal learner rider course which is a different story and deeper in depth LOL

JReviere

03-21-2006, 04:00 PM

When I took a driving test in 1969, for my MC endorsement, (I'd just moved to Texas from a state which did not require a motorcycle endorsement), it was an OBSERVED ride. I had to provide the State Police Trooper with a car and driver to drive behind me. He directed my path by having his driver signal turns with the car's turn signals, so I had to keep an eye on the mirrors since he was in my "six" the entire ride. Because of a wreckless maneuver by a driver coming out of a blind cross street, I had to make a panic stop. He complimented me on situational awareness and positive control of my GoldWing... no tinker toy "starter bike" for the test. So, what some have said about cones and parking lot tests simply is not true in all states. In the US, what is required for riding endorsements varies from state to state.

JR
STOC 394

Medicine Bear

03-21-2006, 04:17 PM

ST/SV

03-21-2006, 04:51 PM

Took my m/c test in Houston in '66 on a borrowed Honda Sport 65. After it passed the inspection 2 DPS officers followed me in one of their cars. They would honk once for a left, 2 for a right and 3 times for a quick stop. Basicly rode around the block. Yes times have changed.

Burger

03-21-2006, 06:24 PM

In 1963, in Slidell, Louisiana, the test I took on my Honda 50 Cub was thus:

The observer stood in the middle of the block. I started from mid-block to his right, rode to the first corner and made a right turn, U-turned back to the original street, and stopped. Proceeded back in front of the observer to the first corner in the other direction and repeated. Rode back in front of the observer and did a "panic stop". End of test. Needless to say (except for this bunch :) ) I passed.

Fred :03biker:

That sounds similar to the way motorcycle tests were back in 19 whatever when I took and passed mine.

Examiner was always on foot but they would generally pick a town location where there were plenty of paths and snickets between the shops and houses. They'd instruct you to ride a particular route until they stopped you and then pop up at the most inconvenient places, clipboard in hand :)

On one particular route they would explain that they were going to step out in front of you and raise their right hand, whereupon you should slam on the anchors for an emergency stop. Off I went, round and round until about 300 yards in the distance I saw my examiner take his hand out of his pocket... so I slowed to 25mph... then he stepped into the road... 20 mph... by the time he finally raised his arm I was only doing about 10mph lol.

Finally they ask you a few questions on the highway code and voila... one motorcycle licence :D

Now it's much tougher, but that's probably for another thread if anyone was interested.

I have heard a story many times, not sure of its authenticity, of the student taking his test who kept riding round and round a circuit waiting for his examiner to step out in front of him. He encountered all sorts of obstacles on his route, crowds, tail backs, cars stopped in the middle of the road, even an ambulance blocking his way. After an hour he went back to the test center and told them he'd lost his examiner... who was of course in the ambulance having stepped out in front of the wrong bike :D

Regards,

Medicine Bear

03-21-2006, 07:07 PM

Great story, Dave!

Fred :03biker:

tricky_micky

03-22-2006, 01:06 AM

RC

To ride a motorcycle on a road over here that is above 50cc, you must take a CBT (Certificate of Basic Training). The CBT lasts for 2 years but it only allows you to ride a machine up to 125cc capacity.

Now, if you want to ride larger machines, you have to take the rider test which is carried out by the DSA (Driving Stanadard Agency). To ride a machine above 125cc, and to go take your rider test, you must be over 21 years of age. Once you have passed your test, you are allowed to ride any cc machine you so wished.

Now, if you are between 17 years and 21 years and you want to ride something larger than a 125cc machine. You can take the learner test with the DSA, and if you pass, youcan get a larger bike than a 125cc, but it has to be restricted.

The other age to remember is that if you are 16 years of age, you are restricted to a 50cc moped full stop. It is only when you become 17 years, that you can make the first step.

Now, once you have taken and passed the DSA test, you can go further into advanced riding techniques which is what Dave and Chris are doing.

Advanced riding over here is totally different to DSA standards, and it takes you into a different class, but this is voluntary and not compulsary.

Hope that helps you to understand a little more.

tricky_micky

03-22-2006, 01:13 AM

Your welcome

Gotta go and take some learners out today for training for their rider test. Roll on 1st April when the big stuff kicks in. Thats when our first advanced instructor course of the year begins and it sure is a refreshing change.

Burger

03-22-2006, 02:39 AM

Thanks Mick, glad you answered that, I would have to have gone and looked it up lol. Although I notice you didn't mention direct access or accelerated access which still confuse me :D If anyone's interested this (http://www.dvla.gov.uk/drivers/rdmcycle.htm) link explains all although it carries a UK government boring reading warning :D

And it's only going to get more complicated when/if the new european standards are imposed on us... I forget everything they would change and introduce but they would restrict someone to a certain cc until they're 25 if I remember correctly.

Back when I, and many here, took our tests it was a much simpler process as above.

Regards,

Gonzo

03-24-2006, 09:03 AM

Here in the USA "Lane Splitting" is legal only in California (where I live). Note that California also leads the nation in motorcyclists' deaths...is there a coincidence here? I refuse to do it but if somebody else wants to, it's up to them. I don't race on the street, either.
On related news, most motorcyclists deaths are those who have ridden 500 miles or less, those who get a large (Liter bike or larger) without enough experience, and those (like me) who return to riding after years of not riding. Since I'm now just an old fart, I run slow, be courteous, and try to enjoy the scenery.
Safe riding, gang !

rob.uk

03-24-2006, 01:30 PM

Hi Burger and Chris,

Like you I'm an Asociate Member of the IAM at the moment. I recently finished my observed rides, passed the "cross check" with no faults, and took the test last week with Police Examiner. Unsuccessfully as it happens. In case it helps you, my fail points were as follows:

a) Inadequate equalisation for oncoming traffic. I was in the offside third of my lane, driveways on the nearside, wide urban road. The driveways on the nearside were not obscured nor were there cars waiting to pull out. Much oncoming traffic including a truck and a bus. I should have moved over to the nearside third especially to anticipate the need for oncoming traffic to move into my lane to pass parked cars, bus pulling in etc.

b) Failure to check forward speed when observing for a possible overtake. I was stuck behind a dumper truck doing 20 mph in a 30. Although I'd done it correctly and without accelerating hundreds of times, I allowed my speed to creep up very slightly while pulling out for final stage observation in the offside lane. I had not passed the bumper of the dumper, but I was within a foot or so. And then I touched the brakes when pulling back in. Oops.

c) Inappropriate speed for surface conditions. We passed a long straight section with dry mud on the road. I saw it and slowed from 60 mph to about 50 mph. The examiner slowed to 35 mph. Although the mud looked dry, it had rained the night before, and the mud was probably pretty gooey underneath.

d) Failure to do lifesaver check when turning right from major to minor road. Rear observation has to be pretty good at this level - after all you are in the lead and unless you look in the mirrors to see where and when the examiner is signalling you will miss turnings. Well this was one I almost missed due to a late mirror check. In retrospect I'd have been safer to carry straight on, turn round when it was safe to do so, and then catch the examiner up again. As it was, I panicked and did the rurn right without a lifesaver.

Although it's disappointing not to have passed this time, I'll keep working at safe riding. I have a ride to Belgium coming up in April and a ride to the Grand Canyon in May, and I hope to be invited to take the Adavnced test again after that.

I do wish you both every success with your observed rides.

Best regards,
Rob

Burger

03-24-2006, 01:41 PM

Rob, thank you very much. If you're anything like me I'm sure you must be very disappointed to have not passed. I wish you every success if you decide to try again. I will certainly take note of the points you failed on and will try to take notice of them as I proceed.

Regards,

tricky_micky

03-24-2006, 02:37 PM

Rob

Having read your ride report, and having been an examiner for the IAM for quite some years on everything and anything.

I would question his thoughts on C and D.

A) I would have to go along with his decision as you should equalize your danger zones, and the moving, oncoming traffic is far more dangerous to you than an empty driveway.

B) I would have to go along with that one as I was not there. However, you have already signed the guilty note as you applied your brakes

C) That one is doubtful as far as I am concerned. Just because he slowed down to 35MPH and you slowed a little but not as much, that to me could be thrown out to the jury for verdict. I would not have failed you for that.

D) I certainly do not agree with that decision. You should have replied to him "I considered a Lifesaver in sequence and I did not think it was necessary" That would have thron that one out of the window because the Police System does cover consider it in sequence.

Picture this one. You are truning right into a busy junction where you can see the driver of a car waiting to turn out of that junction to there right. You have a car coming towards you that you have to wait until it has passed before you can make your right turn.

Once the opposing vehicle has passed, WHAT IS THE POINT OF A LIFESAVER! The car that has just gone passed in the other direction is now protecting you from anyone that may have been overtaking you stupidly, the main danger is now in front of you because you need to watch what the driver is doing in the junction that you are turning into.

If the danger in front is greater than that behind, what the heck are you doing looking back!

Dave, worth remembering the above because any examiner that starts firing off that you have missed a lifesaver then reply with one of the above or all the answers and you have got them by the short and curlies.

Rob, all I can say is stick with it and better luck next time round.

Burger

03-24-2006, 03:15 PM

tricky_micky

03-24-2006, 03:50 PM

I love all this stuff... thanks guys.

I'm confused on the statements about point B. If I've followed correctly Rob was getting ready to over take a vehicle. In doing so and while ensuring his way was clear he moved further forwards. He then realised it wasn't safe to overtake at that time but to pull back in he had to slow a little. To slow he applied his brakes because if he didn't he would have ended up as a sandwich between the dumper and oncoming vehicle. Did I read that right?

OK... I'll assume I did for now... what's wrong with that? I agree it would have been even safer to have been able to pull in without braking and it wasn't the smartest of moves. But, he's a human being and as such isn't infalible... having made a small mistake, he corrected it in the safest possible way to all concerned.

I can understand failure if he'd decided to take a hand full of throttle and blast past it anyway, but why should he fail for correcting himself safely?

Thanks,

Sugar!

Slap my hands with a duck feather! Sorry, misread the post, must be pressure of work! Scrabblerabbledabblemingingfingermukinaboot! I need a break :bow1:

I read it that Rob was in midst of overtaking, after reading the post again, then I as an examiner would have let that one go as Rob had realised before actually committing.

Good observations Dave, you are well on your way to a PASS LOL.

What I am trying to get over to you guys is that the Examiner should be more thoughtful, and he should have put himself in Robs position and looked at it from both aspects.

My opinion, poor examining, but that is what I have found with some examiners, they expect too much from a candidate. The other points from Robs ride would have been a discussion session at the end of the test run to find out what exactly was going thru Robs mind at the point of the mistake, listening to the remarks, I would have passed Rob.

After all, lets face it, what he did was not a hideous crime, and I have actually found out over the years that some observers, be it IAM or RoSPA, actually tell their students to sit out towards the white line, even if there is traffic coming towards them. I know that is true because I have had some clients come on our advanced instructor courses and found that they too ride out towards the white line.

I did put them right, but their reply has always been they actually thought it was dangerous because they were to close to oncoming traffic, but because their observer told them to ride there, they thought nothing of it, and that was the correct place to be.

What qualification has an IAM observer got as regards advanced motorcycle instruction, I think you will find 98% have just passed their test and thought they would do some observing and that is about it.

I am a pro at this, it is my line of work and I run a National Advanced Training Company where we provide courses that have a National Qualification. Not only are our courses moderated internally, but we are also moderated by the colleges we work with, no other training company in the UK goes through that, but what the heck, we are the best LOL.

So, apologies to Rob and thanks Dave for pointing my error out, I did misread the post, and due to that, ROB, I would have passed you on your test ride.

Sorry it was a long one but read my next post!

Burger

03-24-2006, 03:54 PM

OK, I'm convinced... sold... How do I get you as my tester Mick? :D

tricky_micky

03-24-2006, 04:12 PM

After being an examiner for the IAM for some years, doing tests on bikes, cars, mini buses etc, I really got down as to one of the IAM circulars they sent out to all examiners.

I was never the type of examiner to sit by a client and see them slow down to 40 MPH in a car for a bend when I know full well that the bend could be taken at 60 MPH very safely. I would sit there and get angry, not with the client, but with how the observer had taught them.

For instance, I was testing a 21 year old guy in a VW Golf GTi and he sat there driving, being very reserved. We came to one of these bends I am talking about and he slowed down to the point where an Artic was up his exhaust pipe. To me, that was dangerous! :eek:

I politely asked him why he had slowed down that much and his actual reply was " My observer told me to slow down on approach so that when I went round the bend the car would not rock"

Jesus did I go off on a tangent. I asked him if he would drive like that if I were not sitting in the passenger seat and he said "Of course not"

I told him to make the car rock and forget what he had been told by his observer, and believe me, that drive he produced was superb, but if I had not opened my gob, we would have had another boring drive and he could have failed due to what he had been told by his observer.

My thoughts about the IAM are that they are of the 'Cardigan Brigade' and a load of BOF's (boring old farts) I will say that it was not the same with most bikers.

However, to continue, we had a circular come round telling examiners that if the client has read the book, 'How to Pass Your Advanced Test' which is an IAM production, and that client drives and produces some of those methods, we should pass them.

My conclusion was and still is, the IAM are not out for class, they are out to produce numbers so that they can publish that so many candidates have passed the test and they have so many members etc. What an attitude to take.

As a result, I told them to stick it where the sun does not shine. I do have more stories about the IAM and of RoSPA, but folk would probably say I am bias because I run a training company.

They would be wrong as I do respect that there are some good observers out there, it is just the folk in the glass houses that really do not give a damn as long as their salary is in the bank every month.

Rant mode off, just my thoughts coming out and I feel sorry for Rob because in my mind, his examiner has not taken a look at the whole playing field and taken into consideration what Rob was thinking at the time and why.

Enuff from me fer now!

:old1:

Burger

03-24-2006, 04:35 PM

What qualification has an IAM observer got as regards advanced motorcycle instruction, I think you will find 98% have just passed their test and thought they would do some observing and that is about it.

And now your last post...

Micky (and stop calling me Sugar) :D

I've got to take issue with you on that comment. I think at some time or another you must have met some pretty bad observers with misguided attitudes or something and they've left you with the wrong impression.

I know you have a career as a professional motorcyclist and that you are trained and experienced to a very high standard. I don't doubt for one second that you could ride the socks off most people here and that's precisely why I enjoy your posts and respect your free advice, for which I'm very grateful.

I am sure that a few who pass their IAM tests and are then convinced they are Gods gift to motorcycling thinking they now know all there is to know, but I am sure these will be very much in the minority. We meet such people in all walks of life and there is nothing worse than a know-it-all as I'm sure you must know. As we both know, no one should ever think they are so good or so much better than everyone else that they have no more to learn themselves.

IAM observers are working in their own time, in an unpaid capacity to help improve the standards of riding on our roads. Sure, they are not usually trained to police standards of riding but most are humble, genuine, skilled and knowledgable carrying out this work for no other reason than a desire to enjoy motorcycling and pass on their knowledge and relative expertise.

I will be very proud of myself if I do eventually pass my IAM test and I strongly suspect that I too will then like to pass on some of my knowledge and skill to others. To do this I will have to pass a further test as an observer. Will you then treat me with the same cynicism and ridicule? To think you might makes me feel as though there really isn't any point doing this in the first place and there certainly wouldn't be any point passing it on to others.

If I could, I would like to keep on training and learning even when I've passed my IAM test. I would like to train all the way to police standards but as you pointed out in another post, I will never have that opportunity. Why should that make everything I can achieve and give back pointless?

Like I said, I am sure, and I do mean it, that you are an extremely skilled motorcyclist and in this position you carry a great deal of influence over others.

I enjoy conversing with you Mick, I enjoy learning from you and I look forward to meeting you one day I hope. You have a wicked sense of humour amongst your many attributes and so I hope you take this in the spirit it is intended.

Best regards,

tricky_micky

03-24-2006, 07:15 PM

Dave

Read into it a little more. I do have admiration for bikers that put themselves out, when I was testing IAM it was always the bikers that came more prepared for the test than any car drivers put together, that is down to observers and dedication.

Now, I suppose a little bitterness comes into it, but I am a little sweety! When and when the DSA bring out the register for motorcycle trainers that would like to continue with the so called 'Post Test Training', what qualifications do you need to get on that register as a trainer.

If you are not up to speed with what is going on within the training industry, it would take me quite a while to explain. But, the DSA are supposed to be bringing out a list of Post Test Trainers, because things are changing. Now, to get on that list of trainers, you must have a qualification in advanced training, seems fine to me!

One of the ways onto that register is via our advanced instructor course as well as others, now let us look at someone that has attended our course. It has just cost them £1,200.00 for the course, but it is a very high qualifcation.

Now let us look at some of the observers, what have they got, I dont mean this nastily, but nothing is the answer apart from having past the IAM test.

I will agree with anyone that a Police Rider has the highest riding qualification there is, but, it does not mean he would make a good trainer. On the other hand, a good trainer might need to polish off some of their riding abilities to get them up to scratch, but they are an excellent teacher.

One of the big worries at the moment is that there is a concern that IAM observers may be given Grandfather rights onto the DSA list of post test trainers, without any other qualification other than that they are an observer for the IAM.

Think about it, you pay me £1,200.00 for an advanced instructor course and we really put you thru the mill. You pass which is great and you have a very high qualification.

What would you think of someone that goes along and passes the IAM test, and after a little discussion, gets a pass onto this DSA trainers list and they have never talked or trained anyone in their life!

That is my beef with IAM observers, I will not knock them at all, but I still wonder why they do it for nothing? Some are genuine and some are just glorified Adolfs.

The thing that attracts folk to the IAM is it is cheap. You get allocated an observer who might be a very busy person, so your training goes over some months because of committments. You would not believe how many folk come to us because they are despondant over the time issue. I could probably teach you more in a day, than the IAM could teach you over 6 months, well, I know I could but that is not in discussion.

I could ask the question, why did you go the IAM route and not RoSPA? RoSPA have a different set up and a different qualification set up which to me is better than IAM because of its structure and nothing else.

So, I do not knock IAM, I look further into the future because I am in the training industry and I have seen draft copies of the DSA proposals for Post Test Training for riders, and it is a bit of a laugh as to what is happening.

It looks so bad that if it does go certain ways because of certain influences with the DSA, I will just close my company down and stuff it.

I am a proffesional in my job and carry it out to the full, what would happen if within your proffesion, something similar took place and I come along and pass an easy test. I run along with someone within your industry, and the next thing you find I am now qualified to take over your job because I sat an exam or whatever and you are now facing redundancy because the doors have been opened.

Hope that may clear up some of my views. I do not knock what is happening within the industry, it is just competition. There are good observers and there are bad observers, but I think deeper into the situation, after all, would you let a Janitor in a Hospital perform surgery, likewise would you expect a surgeon to clean the cludgy!

Burger

03-24-2006, 08:41 PM

Thanks for the explanation Mick, I appreciate you taking the time to write it. I'm glad to see you do actually believe there are some good IAM observers. Your point about it taking time is very valid, but you do also have to factor in the costs too which obviously are much less than yours.

Now, why did I decide to go the IAM route? I got back onto a bike after a break of some 18 years and immediately discovered two things...

1. While I could still remember much about how to ride a bike, I had lost the feelings of affinity with one that I once had. I realised I could not tell how far it was safe to lean or what the reactions of the bike would be to different road conditions etc. Something that was once completely natural to me and second nature had gone.

2. Being older and wiser I had become much more aware of the potential dangers and hazards we can enounter.

So I decided it would be good to get some advice and signed up for a one day Bikesafe day in Wiltshire. To be honest I found the lectures in the morning a little boring because I felt they weren't teaching me anything that I didn't already know. I might not be practicing it well, but I knew it all the same from my years of bikes and cars. That is apart from one thing, the vanishing point. No one had ever explained this to me before and although it made so much sense, I had never even thought about it for myself.

Then came the ride out with the police officer. I learnt more in that ride and regained more of my lost feelings than I'd managed on my own over the previous two months of riding. I was impressed with the fluidity and smoothness of the PC's riding style and I could see the sense in everything he was telling me about road position etc. I enjoyed it all, the riding and learning, so much that at the end I asked the PC I was with what I could do to further my education and skills. Without any hesitation he told me about WABAM, what a great group of people they are and how well they teach people. He also mentioned RoSPA and a privately run training centre in the area but strongly recommended that the IAM and particularly the WABAM group were the best.

Having now joined I can tell you that I consider my observer to be very good. He stikes me as a very similar person to you in his attitude to both motorcycling and training and I feel very priveleged to have him giving his time and advice. I am absolutely convinced he would have given exactly the same answers you did to Robs situation above.

I am doing this course to improve my own riding style and safety and I believe in The System which is why I am keen to learn, practice and observe it. As you will know from my other posts on this, on just my second session, he told me that he couldn't fault my first ride. I believe that is a demonstration of my capacity and aptitude for it. I don't mean that to sound big headed in any way, I still have much to learn much confidence to regain and skill to develop.

As for the length of time it will take, for myself it fits my very busy life well. You could also take the view that having time to practice between observed rides will ultimately give me more skill and experience than someone doing a crash course. I am not saying here that one is better than the other... merely horses for courses.

I hope if I am able to continue and achieve even higher standards and then have the time and in some way help others to achieve higher standards, that I will be looked on as a good, qualified observer and not someone that PC's and professional trainers look at as an unqualified know it all.

If life has taught me one thing so far it is that I will never stop learning.

Regards,