Observations

[tricky_micky]

We have talked and discussed the 'System' we use over here in the UK. There has also been a thread about delayed apex on bends and how we use the 'System' on approach and whilst negotiating a bend.

Now, let us take a look at one of the most important items or topics of riding, and that is OBSERVATIONS.

How important do YOU think observations are? Well to me, it is very high on my priority list because if you do not see it, how the heck can you react.

Observations is an art, and can be developed in all riders. When I get students on advanced courses, I normally explain to them that I have a key. It is a big key, and I am going to take this key and unlock your mind just like Pandoras box. When I use the key and open the box which is your brain, I am going to fill it with as much knowledge and information that I can. I do not really care what stage of riding ability you are at, I will lift your observations up to a higher level than what they are at the moment.

I do use a radio system of course, but with a student, I do a short assessment ride with them to see where I am going to pitch my work.

I then take over with a demonstration ride with a FULL commentary. Once I pull over the student normally comments with remarks like '****, you are talking about a red van somewhere, what red van?' they cant see that red van until it comes into their frontal view, but I am trying to get them to open the door and use cross vision over fields, through gaps in houses and so on.

So what we must look at doing is taking those 'Horse Blinkers' off which will stop the 'Tunnel Vision', and switch the brain and eyes from dipped beam to main beam and we keep the focus on main beam.

I also use a system where I use soccer players or footballers we call them, but you can work this one out US style.

Now, if you were the manager of a football team, where would you like your forward line players to be? Answer, right up the field near the goal. Now where are your midfield players, well, midfield of course. Your defence is close and the goalkeeper is in goal of course.

Lets put this into observation techniques. You are the manager of a football team and you are on the pitch in a training session. You are standing in a predominant position in front of the goal keeper.

Lets put this into the observations, your forward line or attackers, are as far up the field as you can see (think about furthest distance not the length of a football field!).

Now your midfield are halfway between the forward line and the defence. Then defence line is normally just in front of the goal keeper, and the goal keeper is just behind you in your rear view mirrors.

Lets put this into riding a motorcycle, and your field of view should be continually panning between the forward line, midfield, defence and goal keeper and then back up to the attackers.

By doing this, you should have a continually changing picture of what is happening ahead and behind you as you make safe progress. You are able to prioritorise your hazards but be in a position to quickly re-arrange according to what is happening. Reason being, you have been looking so far ahead of you, that a situation gets logged in the brain cell between those floppy lugs we call earoles.

Now, it is quicker to bring something forward from the brain cell that you have fed information to previously, than it is to re-act in a quick decision, because your observations have been lifted and your mind is working and re-acting quicker and earlier.

I have only talked about straight forward observations and how we should be continually refreshing and prioritorising the dangers in front and behind us.

What I would ask you to think and do is that as you are riding, think about the forward line, mid field, defence and goal keeper tactics, keep moving your sight up and down to gain information. Post your findings and let us know if it lifts your observations higher and gives you some comfort zone.

Take the blinkers off and start looking, you will be suprised what you can see and work out before it happens.

I have not gone into cross views and observation links as I feel that we must first think about this blinker effect, and when I talk about the blinkers, I mean that we look at a horse that has those blinkers on in order to make them look straight ahead. These need to be removed, we need to open Pandoras Box and get you looking up your own arse if it helps!

Thread open for comments, but observation links etc to me, can come under another heading.

My thoughts about bike riding is that you need eyes and sight like a '**** House Rat', they see verything that is going on around them even in the dark, but they still have that killer instinct should they need it.

Develop your observation techniques, dont just look in front of you!

Cool, stay safe and be careful out there. Thread open for discussion

Mick

[Tiny]

Good stuff!

[Bones]

I think I'm on a similar plane with you, Mick. Though I haven't used the soccer, er football, analogy that you describe, my method is largely the same. I continually scan the field of play -- way ahead, near ahead, peripherally, and behind. Often I practice this out loud when driving in the family car or truck...my 6-year-old gets great pleasure in pointing out potential hazards before I do. She's got eyes like a hawk.

Thanks for the continuing discussion on technique...helps to pass the @#$%&?! winter.

(P.S. On this side of the pond, horses have "blinders".)

[SteveST1300]

In the MSF class I took the instructor used SPA Scan-Plan-Act. :03biker: This is something we should be doing constantly.

[Carl_T]

Great post Mick.

You have mentioned it a bit and hinted at it further in your post. I think that a rider needs to develop their use of peripheral vision in addition to scanning by direct looking.

Every time you look from one distance to a closer or farther distance your eyes must take a bit of time to refocus. If you do that constantly AND very rapidly, it becomes extremely fatiguing over time. A lot of information can be picked up peripherally to the main point of focus. This includes picking up things mid distance, and close distance while focusing on far distance and vice versa, etc.

While you will not be able to see details peripherally, you will often be able to pick up enough information to warn you of the need to refocus in a new specific place. One can shift ones “attention” (rather than ones focus) very rapidly between far, mid, and near distances on a consistent basis with a very minimal energy expenditure compared to trying to shift the eyes that much. All it takes is to train your self to shift attention within your periphery, rather than the usual mode of ignoring, the peripheral field. The peripheral field is more than just side to side, it is near to far as well.

I am NOT trying to say you should not shift your actual focus near to far or side to side. I am saying that you can do that at a comfortable rate, and STILL pick up more information about the areas not directly focused on at the same time, by also shifting attention amongst fields within the periphery as well.

I use the term “wide view” with myself when thinking about this. Using the wide view has the effect of slowing the sensation of speed (of how quickly things are happening), which allows you to predict and deal with things with better timing.

I found and exercise Kieth Code wrote about to help develop this ability in yourself. Basically it was, watch TV and while focusing on the screen, shift attention amongst objects in your peripheral vision in the room (without looking at them directly, keep looking at the TV). You do not have to see them clearly, riding you will see just well enough peripherally, to pick up on possible hazards or features that require more focused checking out when you happen to be looking elsewhere.

It is a mental skill to be developed like a muscle. We are normally trained to mostly ignore the peripheral field (to our detriment as safe riders).

[tricky_micky]

I was going to add the scanning and peripheral view but it was late, or should I say early morning and thought it best I got off up the wooden hill for some Zzzzzzzzzz's.

So now you have posted, it will save me doing it LOL. I fully agree with you.

Doh, it is snowing here and I am just about to get off to work. Dont think I shall be doing much riding in this weather, I think my students are going to be a little dissapointed today!

Mick

[Burger]

The video in this thread (http://www.st-owners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9691) is a good reminder of the importance of observation. I responded in that thread to some of the cr*p (literally sometimes) I have to keep my eyes open for...

In my mind though, as important as observation is the course of action you choose to take on your observation. I fully agree that if you don't see something in the first place then you're really not going to react to it, or take the appropriate action, but so many people have good powers of observation and then choose an incomprehensible course of action. Of course this too is where the system comes in, but the point I'm making is one is no good without the other.

Take for example the section in the video where the motorcyclist comes up behind the white van. As the caption on the back of the van says - look out, I'm about to turn right or words to that effect. Good observation on the part of the rider would have meant he might have seen the right turn ahead, either through signage or the actual turn... maybe through seeing the hedge line of a field alter, the direction of electicity and telephone wires or a change in shaddow at the side of the road. There are many observations that could put just 0.00001% doubt in your mind.

Yet other vehicles changing direction or turning, with no signal or at the last minute remain one of the biggest causes of motorcycle accidents involving other vehicles. How come? If we're all so good at observation? Simply because a lot of the time we saw the risks but decided to take the chance anyway and, because we assume that the driver of the other vehicle isn't an idiot. 99.9% of the time we get away with it without incident and all that serves is to educate that taking the risk is OK.

I spent many years commuting into central London every day and I am convinced I learnt to observe many more potential hazzards than I would have done otherwise. Now I live in the middle of the countryside and while the hazzards are different they're no less real. Age and experience have taught me that taking risks is not such a good idea and so I act much more cautiously now on my observations than I used to.

There are those that will tell you there is no such thing as an accident, only the consequences of carelessness on behalf of someone. I actually support this belief and to me one of the hardest things I am still and always will be learning on the roads is not to automatically blame the other person. If someone comes too close to me, I try to think why I am there at that moment in time too and should I have acted differently on my previous observations? That's really tough sometimes and of course, sometimes my situation is due to someone elses carelessness... but it all adds to my powers of observation and chosen actions for the future.

I suppose this is a bit of a disjointed post, but what I'm really trying to say is that I agree observation is critical and the starting point of every decision we make, but it's no use having good observation if you don't then act on them responsibly.

Regards,

[nisbeam]

All good points. Observation is key to safety in knowing what is in front around and behind you. It's probably worth mentioning how the eye/brain system works.
We can see thing very clearly in front and identify vehicles near and far, but peripheral vision is not so distinct - until they move !
I bet you will have noticed things move out of the corner of your eye - this goes back to the days when we were hunters / gatherers and had to be aware of danger. We still work the same way today, BUT this means that if things in your peripheral vision do not move quickly you will not see them - maybe until it is too late !
Example, when two roads merge, such as a slip road joining a motorway (or freeway) where the vehicle to your side will be travelling at a similar speed to yourself.
So when you approach these sort of situations remember to turn your head to have a look around, this will help you to actually SEE what is there.
:03biker:

[Burger]

Where did Mick go? Did you get busy again Mick? :D I was looking forward to some discussion on the points others have raised :)

Regards,

[tricky_micky]

We can see thing very clearly in front and identify vehicles near and far, but peripheral vision is not so distinct - until they move !

:03biker:

Nis, this is known as the 'Camouflage' effect.

As you mention in your post, peripheral vision can be deceptive. Something moving quickly in this area is more easily to pick up in the peripheral view, but when moving slowly, the vehicle blends in with the background so becoming 'Camouflaged' and difficult to pick up.

Observations comes down to experience and working on the topic. It is a skill. It has been mentioned about the 'Scanning' effect which should be a continual movement of the eyes, and as I put it, using the 'Soccer' system of looking as far ahead, midfield, defence and the rear, this combined with scanning helps a rider to build a picture. We should also remember that we have a couple of advantages over other road users and they are that on a motorcycle, we sit higher than car drivers, and so can see more, also we have the manouverability to change position.

By building this picture in your mind, you are able to formulate a 'Riding Plan' and a 'Riding Plan' should be based on:

What you can see
What you can't see
And the circumstances you may reasonably expect to develop.

For instance, approaching a junction coming in from your right (US style riding on the right hand side of the road). There are buildings restriciting your view into that junction.

Now, what can we see. Well, we can see what is ahead of us and what is behind by use of the mirrors.

What we may not be able to see is a vehicle coming into that junction from our right because it is hidden from our view by houses or trees etc.

What circumstances should we expect to develop, well, we should expect that at any time, a vehicle could come to that junction and pull out without stopping.

Riding plan, well we may think about slowing down a little, we can also cover the horn button and we can also adjust our position in order to increase our safety margin away from that junction by moving out a little, thus increasing our safety bubble.

When running advanced rider courses, I normally set out a couple of hours for observations alone. It is a skill that really should be developed by everyone.

Next one to follow......Observation Links :eek:

Sorry it has taken me a while to get back on, I am working pretty damn hard at the moment getting an advanced instructor course up and running for April 1st. Clients pay a lot of money for this course as it carries a very high qualification, so it needs to be spot on and well organised as usual.

As a result, I am only getting on the forum as and when during my working hours of 6.30am until whatever time at night, and sometimes it is running into the wee early hours of the morning! :22yikes:

Never mind, it does earn loads of :money1: Pity it is not all mine!

Ah well, where did I put those :rx1: to keep me going or maybe another :beer8: LOL

Mick

[Carl_T]

Thank you for the time and effort you put into this Micky. I picked up a copy of Roadcraft to more completely understand where you are coming from. I'll be reading it shortly.

[tricky_micky]

Thank you for the time and effort you put into this Micky. I picked up a copy of Roadcraft to more completely understand where you are coming from. I'll be reading it shortly.

Carl

Pity you could not get a copy of Roadcraft that was issued in the 1970's. The new versions have been revised so much by so called 'White Collar' workers that they have spoilt it!

The old versions laid out the book and topics with the definitions of each subject very clearly, with an overview paragraph before the list of defintions.

Now if you look at the new books and look for the 'Rules of Speed', 'Rules for Braking', 'Rules for Overtaking' etc, they were clearly listed and easy to find and learn. Now, they are flowered up in amongst 'Bull****', and some of the definitions are not even listed.

What a crying shame! The definitions were far easier to learn when listed as they were, okay, I am what they call over here, 'Old School' in that when I did the Police Advanced Courses, it was in the 1970's, and they were followed by regular Refresher Courses.

Nowadays, due to the cost cutting, Police Driving Courses are not the same unfortunatly, and in my opinion, the Police Standard of driving has dropped to what it was in my day, and I do not care what anyone offers as an opinion over here in the UK. The courses are shorter and structured differently in order to save money, and as a result, the standard has to drop from what it used to be.

Anyway, if you ever get chance to get hold of a copy from the 1970's, you will understand where I am coming from, however, hope everything we are discussing on here begins to fall into place.

Mick

[Burger]

and I do not care what anyone offers as an opinion over here in the UK.

???? I take it, or at least I hope, you just mean in the standards of Police driving right? In which case I don't have an opinion in their standards... I do on their skills especially in emergency situations, but not their standards :D

Regards,

[tricky_micky]

???? I take it, or at least I hope, you just mean in the standards of Police driving right? In which case I don't have an opinion in their standards... I do on their skills especially in emergency situations, but not their standards :D

Regards,

Dave

I mean the standards of driving! If you look back over the years, to drive a Police Patrol car, and I mean a red and white, you started with a standard 5 week course.

You then went further to an intermediate course which was 4 weeks duration. If you hit the standard, then you went further to a 4 week advanced course. Now, the Police Driving Schools do not offer the same courses as they do not exist as they did years ago.

Hence my opinion, that the standards have to drop off as the training standard is not as high due to financial reasons. I will stick by that as I saw it happening whilst I was still in the job.

I mean, how the heck can a 'Hobby Bobby' (Sorry, Special Constable) drive a Police car to the same standard as a fully trained Police Officer! In my day, you had to do a 5 week course in order to drive a Police van let alone anything else. Today, a Special Constable can drive the so called 'Buzzies' providing they do not use blue lights ot two tones.

I rest my case your worshipful wonderous lady as I stare into your eyes from the 'Dock' after giving my evidence. The way you 'Pucker Your Lips' when you question me.......Agh shucks!


LOL just thought I would take you off on a tangent :p:

[Burger]

Hm... well that just convinced me to cancel my application to be a special...

1. It's very obvious they're not taken seriously... hobby bobbies :D

2. I'm only interested if I can play with lights and sirens on :D

As for puckering up... hm... not sure whether to advise you to have another dram or run lol

[Carl_T]

Well Micky, I'll keep an eye out in the used bookstores from time to time. What you describe sounds like they did a backwards step in practicality. Someone somewhere likely thought it should be more entertaining to read or something. I'm going through it bit by bit as time allows. I'll wait to form opinions until the whole thing has been adequately digested.

[Coop]

Stay alert, Stay alive!

[STumpy]

We have talked and discussed the 'System' we use over here in the UK. There has also been a thread about delayed apex on bends and how we use the 'System' on approach and whilst negotiating a bend.

Mick

I really enjoyed reading all your posts on the System, etc. I have one question regarding turns (or Bends) and determining the APEX etc. How does this apply to extreme curves of bends? I am thinking more of the clover leafs when entering or existing an interstate highway.

They are actually a 360 degree bend. Many are banked and that helps considerably, but we do have some that are not.

My thoughts were that maybe you create more than one APEX going through the entire curve. Does that make sense?

Thanks
STumpy

[tricky_micky]

Mick

They are actually a 360 degree bend. Many are banked and that helps considerably, but we do have some that are not.

My thoughts were that maybe you create more than one APEX going through the entire curve. Does that make sense?

Thanks
STumpy
STumpy

Yep, I would go along with what you are saying, and that is to create another apex if possible.

If it were a steady sweeper, then I would just hold the line, be it towards the centre for a right hander and to the right for a left hander (US head on!) I would keep a steady throttle most of the way through in order to maintain maximum stability of the bike.

If you have positive or super elevated camber, that makes it even nicer to maintain stability and traction throughout, mind, if it were here in the UK, they would probably drop negative camber just to catch you out :eek:

To follow on form that, if you get a long right or left hander with a short srtaight section between the two, I would just take the first under very slight acceleration and then adjust the throttle on the straight for the second. I would also hold the same line so as not to weave the bike left and right. By holding the line, centre for a right hander, nearside for a left hander, you are already in position for the next one, so you would not apex the line on the first, just hold the line for the second, keeps the bike smoother if you can understand me.

I know when Carl reads this, he will no doubt come up with some graphics for you God bless him.

We do not have many of those long sweeping type of turns you are talking about, we do do have some that have double apexes, and if you are not on the ball so to speak, they can surely catch you out.

Been a long day in the office today, oh, the bike is one of my offices LOL. 6am start this morning and returned home 8pm, totally drained. You may laugh and think this is nothing compared with what you guys do for travelling, but on our roads it is very demanding!

Time for a drink, but hope the post helps a little, or confirms your thoughts.

TTFN

[STumpy]

STumpy


We do not have many of those long sweeping type of turns you are talking about, we do do have some that have double apexes, and if you are not on the ball so to speak, they can surely catch you out.

You may laugh and think this is nothing compared with what you guys do for travelling, but on our roads it is very demanding!

Time for a drink, but hope the post helps a little, or confirms your thoughts.

TTFN

Thanks Mick. Yes, that does confirm what I was thinking. We have a lot of these "clover leafs" for entering or exiting interstates or expressways. They are fun to ride but, like you said, if you dont plan ahead you can find yourself running out of pavement very quickly.

Not laughing here, I have been to England and I have seen your traffic and roads....I was exhausted just riding in a car as a passenger. WIth that said, I have been to many European countries and England, without a doubt, ranks Number 1 with me. Most of these other countries are so intense on taking advantage of American tourists, that when you leave, you wonder what possessed you to go there to begin with. England, sure is somewhat the same with tourists, but I found the people in general to be very courteous and friendly. It was a nice change from the others.

STumpy

[BigTom]

Guys:

This has been a great thread for me, thanks.

Somewhere, sometime, I learned a method for those long sharp loop types. You can break it down into 2 or 3 little turns by using the lane (and more, sometimes). Inside to outside to inside to outside. Sometimes 2 little turns is better than 1 big one, I think. Has to do with recognition and which line to pick. I wish I had graphic capabilities so I could show what I mean, but I am a techno dud. Sorry.

Someplace (Needles, CA?) yesterday I was on a 360 cloverleaf, and ran part of it well under the fog line before releasing a little to carry the rest of the turn deeper in the real entrance lane. California entrances are notoriously short, I like to carry as much speed to the roadway as possible, to pick my merger points with care. I really like to get on/in where I want AOT where the traffic forces me to be.

I am continually playing the "what if" game when I am in traffic. What if the bone head does _________________.

SPECIAL TO MICK: Nice Avatar. In reality, somebody would sue Honda for un fair competitive advantage, though.

Thank you all, for the time and effort you have put into this thread.

[Carl_T]

Illustration 1; You could certainly double apex a cloverleaf. Though there are some things to consider before doing it.

You have to be very certain that you do not get into slippery crap thrown outside the turn by car/truck tires. Also you have to be sure you see no deisel fuel slopped on the outside by trucks railing through the cloverleaf. You are making your critical second sharp turn out there in a possible crap surface zone, when using a double apex.

The other thing is that you will be using all three possible throttle combinations mid turn (maintenance, roll on, and trailing throttle, perhaps even some trail braking if you are pushing speed), so you have to be very good (smooth) at doing these throttle transitions to even consider this line at any semi swift pace.

In addition to that you have to have an excellent sense of, and mental construct of, the whole cloverleaf configuration, to use a double apex with any real success (and not get stuck making a bunch of mid turn corrections).

On the positive side it has you leaned over steeper twice, but for a much shorter duration than a constant radius and so long as that is done on good traction surface, it is a plus. Done at lower than possible speeds it is a double plus.

Doing a double apex at considerably less than maximum speed reduces the throttle on/off negatives of this line and can make it a possible choice in the rain due to reduced exposure time to greatest lean angles. Again one would have to really be able to trust there is no crap on the outside of the turn and no diesel spills there from trucks over-sloshing fuel out of their tanks when turning. One would also have to be familiar enough with the cloverleaf to know where to apex and where to make the sharper portions of the turn.

Illustration 2; In general I go with Micky's method (but I have used both) as in the second graphic. I pick a nice clean traffic track on the outside half and use maintenance throttle (generally steady throttle of slight pull without increasing or decreasing speed) around the leaf until I see that it is going to open up, then I arc in for an extremely late apex and roll on the throttle out as the bike's arc opens up (if the surface permits, and it normally does, otherwise you can just hold the wide track arc).

As always you have to be ready to adjust to conditions as they reveal themselves if needed.

[STumpy]

Illustration 1; You could certainly double apex a cloverleaf. Though there are some things to consider before doing it.
.......As always you have to ready to adjust to conditions as they reveal themselves if needed.

Great advice. I have learned so much reading yours and Micky's posts. Here I thought I was a fairly proficient rider, only to discover I have a long way to go.

I