YEA, I KNOW, another oil thread.

We should probably be speaking quietly in the shadows, I sense articles of impeachment are being considered here. I've always had positive results with shifting using synthetics in many bikes, nearly all were heavy oils, 5-40, 15-50, 15-40, or 20-50, have not used the lighter vis yet. A particular 15-50 Suzuki full syn. gave the slickest shifting I ever had in a 1993 Fj1200.

Rat540 opened up a good point to ponder about JASO. Some early motorcycle I've ridden had much heavier clutches then the ST and I just got used to it, not a problem. Are we denying ourselves the best in engine lubrication by demanding an easy clutch pull to preserve our clutches. Has a clutch material that would be compatible with new SN energy conserving oils been attempted ? Are manual transmissions an archaic contraption, I've never driven a motorcycle with an automatic and was soured on the idea by some negative publicity on the early FJ1300s. Now the finest lubricants in the world can not meet JASO specs because they won't produce a product compatible with them, a void in reasoning here.

So, I am going to be the guinea pig here. If I can just get 20 of the fine members here to agree to share the burden I may suffer in putting a top SN rated 5-30 full synth. in my ST with 21,000mi and see how long it lasts til failure, then replace with new clutch plates and heavier springs and repeat, any takers or do you want my head on a stick.
 
My computer shite the bed and this is the only document that could recover. :rofl1:
Forget about using the first 5, I use #15.
Hey, at least I'm in the top 10. I feel so impotent.:eek:
Computers love oil threads to and will never let them disappear.

HDEO OIL

Most technically inclined gearheads understand the value of real world, motor oil “load carrying capacity/film strength” testing. The results show us how various oils compare when it comes to wear protection. And we can use that information to make an informed decision as to which oil we want to select for our engines.

Though, there are some folks who are extremely set in their beliefs about what they’ve always been told and read, regarding high zinc oils providing excellent wear protection. But, the truth is, like all things in life, motor oils are NOT all created equal. And some oils are simply better than others, no matter what their zinc levels are. Anyone would have to be delusional to think otherwise. And “Wear Testing”, RATHER THAN ZINC LEVELS ALONE, can show us how various oils stack up against each other regarding wear protection capability, as you will see in the real world test data below.

Some folks, who REALLY believe the notion that more zinc in their oil will provide more wear protection, often throw a tizzy fit and get very nasty when test data shows a low zinc oil providing better wear protection than a high zinc oil. But, the fact is, behavior like that will NOT change the facts regarding what oils provide excellent wear protection and what oils do not. However, to keep everyone’s blood pressure down this time, we’ll look at ONLY HIGH ZINC OILS here. That way, all the oils are on an even playing field. However, true zinc lovers will no doubt be disappointed, because not all high zinc oils tested well, even though they all have plenty of zinc.

And keep in mind for comparison with the oils below, that earlier oil industry testing has found that above 1,400 ppm, ZDDP INCREASED long term wear, even though break-in wear was reduced. And it was also found that ZDDP above 2,000 ppm, started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling. So, no matter what zinc fans might “believe”, there is such a thing as "too much of a good thing".

The following group of oils have zinc levels above 1100 ppm, and are ranked according to their “load carrying capacity/film strength”, or in other words, their “wear protection capability”, at 230*F. The tests were repeated multiple times for each oil, and even though all the results for each oil were consistent within a few percent, those results were averaged to arrive at the most accurate and representative final psi numbers shown below. And every single oil was tested EXACTLY THE SAME, so they all had the same opportunity to perform as well as their chemical formulation would allow.

But, before we get into the ranking list of those oils, let’s take a closer look at one of those oils in particular. The oil is:

10W40 Summit Racing Premium Racing Oil, API SL conventional
The bottle makes some bold claims, such as:

* Double the zinc for superior flat tappet cam protection.

* The additive package contains 1800 ppm ZDDP, providing levels of protection unattainable from conventional motor oil. Provides excellent protection from metal to metal contact.

Problem is, this oil fell FAR SHORT of living up to that inflated boasting. These claims were obviously created by the Marketing Department with no regard for what this oil can actually do. This oil ranked a pathetic 85th out of the 94 new oils I’ve tested so far. And it ranked only 34th out of the 40 oils examined here. Once again, here is an oil with high levels of zinc that DID NOT help it perform very well, even among other high zinc oils. Buyer beware. Motor oils are among the worst products for false advertising.

Now let’s consider the claim on its bottle of 1800ppm ZDDP. Since Oil Companies typically don’t publish the ZDDP values of their oil, I sent this oil to Professional Lab, ALS Tribology in Sparks, Nevada, to see just what is really in it, and to see how that claim of 1800ppm ZDDP compares to reality. Here are the results that came back:

zinc = 1764 ppm
phos = 1974 ppm

NOTE: Most of the time, an oil’s zinc level is higher than its phos level, but the phos level here is greater than the zinc level. That is NOT a typo. That is how this oil’s results came back from the Lab. I’ve seen phos levels higher than zinc levels in approximately 40% of all the oils I’ve sent in for component level Lab Testing. So, it varies and just depends on a particular oil’s formulation. And the values listed below are all just the way they came back from the Lab.

If you average the zinc and phos values of this Summit Racing Oil, you come up with 1869 ppm. And that value is of course more than the 1800 ppm ZDDP claimed, so it appears they’ve averaged the values and then rounded down to the nearest 100 ppm, to be on the conservative side.
And since the ZDDP values are not usually available for most oils, we’ll calculate the ZDDP values for all the oils below, in the same manner as this oil, which should get us very close, if not right on target. But, for quick and dirty mental calculations, you can just figure the ZDDP value as approximately half way between the zinc and phos levels.

Here’s the ranking list:

Wear protection reference categories are:

*** Over 90,000 psi = OUTSTANDING protection

*** 75,000 to 90,000 psi = GOOD protection

*** 60,000 to 75,000 psi = MODEST protection

*** Below 60,000 psi = UNDESIREABLE
The higher the psi number, the better the wear protection.

1. 10W30 Lucas Racing Only synthetic = 106,505 psi
zinc = 2642 ppm
phos = 3489 ppm
ZDDP= 3000 ppm
NOTE: This oil is suitable for short term racing use only, and is not suitable for street use.

2. 10W30 Valvoline NSL (Not Street Legal) Conventional Racing Oil = 103,846 psi
zinc = 1669 ppm
phos = 1518 ppm
ZDDP = 1500 ppm
NOTE: Due to its very low TBN value, this oil is only suitable for short term racing use, and is not suitable for street use.

3. 10W30 Valvoline VR1 Conventional Racing Oil (silver bottle) = 103,505 psi
zinc = 1472 ppm
phos = 1544 ppm
ZDDP = 1500 ppm

4. 10W30 Valvoline VR1 Synthetic Racing Oil, API SL (black bottle) = 101,139 psi
zinc = 1180 ppm
phos = 1112 ppm
ZDDP = 1100 ppm

5. 30 wt Red Line Race Oil synthetic = 96,470 psi
zinc = 2207 ppm
phos = 2052 ppm
ZDDP = 2100 ppm
NOTE: This oil is suitable for short term racing use only, and is not suitable for street use.

6. 10W30 Amsoil Z-Rod Oil synthetic = 95,360 psi
zinc = 1431 ppm
phos = 1441 ppm
ZDDP = 1400 ppm

7. 10W30 Quaker State Defy, API SL semi-synthetic = 90,226 psi
zinc = 1221 ppm
phos = 955 ppm
ZDDP = 1000 ppm

8. 10W30 Joe Gibbs HR4 Hotrod Oil synthetic = 86,270 psi
zinc = 1247 ppm
phos = 1137 ppm
ZDDP = 1100 ppm

9. 15W40 RED LINE Diesel Oil synthetic, API CJ-4/CI-4 PLUS/CI-4/CF/CH-4/CF-4/SM/SL/SH/EO-O = 85,663 psi
zinc = 1615 ppm
phos = 1551 ppm
ZDDP = 1500 ppm

10. 5W30 Lucas API SM synthetic = 76,584 psi
zinc = 1134 ppm
phos = 666 ppm
ZDDP = 900 ppm

11. 5W50 Castrol Edge with Syntec API SN, synthetic, formerly Castrol Syntec, black bottle = 75,409 psi
zinc = 1252 ppm
phos = 1197 ppm
ZDDP = 1200 ppm

12. 5W30 Royal Purple XPR (Extreme Performance Racing) synthetic = 74,860 psi
zinc = 1421 ppm
phos = 1338 ppm
ZDDP = 1300 ppm

13. 5W40 MOBIL 1 TURBO DIESEL TRUCK synthetic, API CJ-4, CI-4 Plus, CI-4, CH-4 and ACEA E7 = 74,312 psi
zinc = 1211 ppm
phos = 1168 ppm
ZDDP = 1100 ppm

14. 15W40 CHEVRON DELO 400LE Diesel Oil, conventional, API CJ-4, CI-4 Plus, CH-4, CF-4,CF/SM, = 73,520 psi
zinc = 1519 ppm
phos = 1139 ppm
ZDDP = 1300 ppm

15. 15W40 MOBIL DELVAC 1300 SUPER Diesel Oil conventional, API CJ-4, CI-4 Plus, CI-4, CH-4/SM, SL = 73,300 psi
zinc = 1297 ppm
phos = 1944 ppm
ZDDP = 1600 ppm
 
I would say that the consumer is the real world tester. No matter what brand or oil type you are using if you have had good luck and tens of thousands of miles on the oil keep using it. Me 2005 Corolla 207K miles using Pennzoil 5W 30 Yellow bottle non synthetic since new. 2000 ST1100 73K miles with Honda HP non synthetic oil. These seem to be working very well. So if you guys are having the same experience on your flavor of oil keep using it.
 
Let there be no doubt, some lubes far exceed others. Fortunately the design of the ST and many engines will have great results with many of the oils in the modest category.
 
Walleye said:
Let there be no doubt, some lubes far exceed others.
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Agreed! The oil I use is the best! All other oils are inferior to my oil and are guaranteed to destroy your engine five seconds after you start it. The additives I prefer are superior to all other additives, and any oil not using my preferred additives have been shown in independent, self-promoted testing to cause premature engine explosion, sterility, hair loss, and spontaneous explosive diarrhea. Anyone who disagrees with me is of dubious moral character and intelligence, and should be held in great suspicion. They probably wear white pants after Labor day and drink red wine with fish, too.
 
Shawn K said:
Agreed! The oil I use is the best! All other oils are inferior to my oil and are guaranteed to destroy your engine five seconds after you start it. The additives I prefer are superior to all other additives, and any oil not using my preferred additives have been shown in independent, self-promoted testing to cause premature engine explosion, sterility, hair loss, and spontaneous explosive diarrhea. Anyone who disagrees with me is of dubious moral character and intelligence, and should be held in great suspicion. They probably wear white pants after Labor day and drink red wine with fish, too.
Click to expand...
I resemble that remark.
Upt'North.
 
I have an old British sports car (1974 Triumph TR6) that I use the Valvoline VR1 in (50w) because the motor requires high zinc content for it's flat tappets.
 
fnmag said:
I beg to differ.
My oil is the only oil to use.
You are risking an early demise if you stray from my oil.
Any intelligent rider can quickly perceive that I know from whence I speak.
Go with the flow and watch your additives.
Click to expand...

As long as your oil is the same as my oil, you're fine. Otherwise, I shall have to use all capital letters to illustrate how right I am. That should settle it. ;):biggrin:
 
What I don't get is why we care to read the wall of text that Rat540 (whoever he is, and whatever his real or imaginary credentials may be) has produced and ponder whether it is from God or the devil. You can use 10w-40 Honda GN4 dinosaur-derived oil and the bike will run over 200,000 miles. Everyone seems to agree that Honda GN4 is a pretty crummy oil by all the comparison testing that has been done. But, it meets the factory spec and neither the clutch nor the motor will object. Or, you can use your choice of a number of highly regarded top-of-the-line boutique Group IV oils made from polyalphaolefins that meet the weight and JASO spec given by Honda, and the bike will run over 200,000 miles thus confirming you to be a genius, as well as someone who really cares about his motorcycle.

What I really, really, really don't get is why we'd conduct an experiment that aims to destroy our bike by using an oil that doesn't meet ANY of the specs given by Honda and then rebuild the motor with non-spec parts that may or may not even exist so that it doesn't die the second time using the "better" oil - all the time assuming that the clutch is the only component in the motor that will object to an oil that is substantially thinner and slipperier than the people who built the thing think you should use - because, well, the whole building full of white lab-coated Honda engineers whose name is on the product and whose reputation and economic future are tied to your success, ...are singularly and collectively not as smart as Mr. Rat (whoever Mr. Rat is).

I'll take "Head on a stick" for $1000 Alex...

jeopardy.jpg
 
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fnmag said:
OK. So, there's no way I want to suffer under your all caps punishment.
Simply state the which you use so that I can buy a pallet full and ride off into the sunset.
Oh, by the way, which oil filter am I supposed to use with your oil? :hat2:
Click to expand...

Mix the following in equal quantities:

* Marvel Mystery Oil
* Canola oil (using only freshly squeezed, virgin canolas)
* Oil of Olay (organic, freshly squeezed)
* Elbow grease (synthetic only)
* Olive oil (Extra virgin... good for the heart)
* Esso 40W (from original cans only)
* Anything made by Lucas Oil

Add two tablespoons of moly paste, simmer at 220 degrees for 6 hours (gets rid of water contamination), and strain through an old gym sock.

For filtration, buy a chrome filter cover, stuff it full of coffee filters, and JB Weld the entire assembly to the engine case.

I read a paper once by a man who claimed that he did this on every one of his 143 motorcycles, and each one of them went for over 200,000 miles without an oil change. He used a lot of big words and spent the first six pages explaining his credentials (including a stellar endorsement from his third grade teacher Mrs. Herringbone, who called him "a very precocious young boy"), so I figure he really knows his stuff.
 
Hey Walleye, I'll offer up the labor to change your clutch plates out. (should they ever slip)
Just get your bike to my house.

On the subject of clutch springs, I wonder why some bikes have 3 and others all the way up to 6.

I dont even acknowledge the JASO rating. Means nothing to me. Run too many bikes with too many types of oil over the years, long before the rating existed. No clutch slipping.
 
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beemerphile said:
because, well, the whole building full of white lab-coated Honda engineers whose name is on the product and whose reputation and economic future are tied to your success, ...are singularly and collectively not as smart as Mr. Rat (whoever Mr. Rat is).
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and that's the beauty of the Internet.

Back in the '80s when people told us "in another 10 years you'll do everything on a computer and never understand how you were able to live without a computer in the past" they were visionary, but not visionary enough to foresee oil threads or they would have called the whole thing off.
 
Pete in PA said:
Hey Walleye, I'll offer up the labor to change your clutch plates out. (should they ever slip)
Just get your bike to my house.

On the subject of clutch springs, I wonder why some bikes have 3 and others all the way up to 6.

I dont even acknowledge the JASO rating. Means nothing to me. Run too many bikes with too many types of oil over the years, long before the rating existed. No clutch slipping.
Click to expand...
Only 300 miles on my T6 5-40 I'd planned on runnin til August. Been shopping like a madman for a second perfect used bike all winter just can't make up my mind, gettin close. At that point, I will have researched after market clutch options. Barnett clutch and springs used to be a popular heavy duty option, don't know who the go to option these days are. Would seem to make sense to start the test fresh for this test.
Sorry all I won't go for the just trust Honda or JASO, they seem to have merely perpetuated a weakness. It may be Possible clutch technology has reached the limits of its performance with The SN lubes, will confer with some aftermarket clutch makers and see what they have to say. Any body watchin the Mecum motorcycle auction on now.
 
Pete in PA said:
I dont even acknowledge the JASO rating. Means nothing to me. Run too many bikes with too many types of oil over the years, long before the rating existed. No clutch slipping.
Click to expand...

JASO T903 (the MA and MB ratings) didn't even exist until 1998. Until then, there was no difference between car and motorcycle oils and no need for any difference. That changed with the introduction of friction modifiers in the new energy conserving motor oils. The Japanese motorcycle industry began seeing widespread issues because most of the friction modifiers were not compatible with the wet clutch systems they were using. Most recommended that their customers hold at the older API SG level, which did not use friction modifiers, until standards could be put in place for motorcycle specific engine lubricants.

All four major Japanese motorcycle manufacturers were involved in the standards setting process, which was managed by the Japanese Lubricating Oil Society (JALOS) who still manages compliance and certification of the JASO T903 standard. The European motorcycle manufacturers were unconcerned at the time, because they were using dry clutches and/or unit transmissions with their own separate lubrication. Now most of the European brands also use wet clutches and for their motorcycles with wet clutches they all, as in 100%, spec the use of JASO MA engine oils. The MA spec has since been divided into MA1 and MA2 sub-specifications depending on the specific friction range needed and whether catalytic converters are fitted.

This is not opinion - mine or anyone else's. It is historical fact. Our self-actualizing junior tribologists are now not only smarter than everyone at Honda, they are smarter than everyone at Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki and Suzuki. In later years, ignorant entities such as KTM, BMW, and Triumph signed on to the JASO MA folly - all because they couldn't build a decent clutch. Even Harley primary cases spec non Energy Conserving oil when they are not busy pushing their Harley-Davidson Genuine Primary Case Lubricant. Somebody get Barnett on the phone for some Gorilla clutch springs. That'll fix it.
 
And don't forget to add a teaspoon of Ester oil every time your change you oil.
Polarity in Ester oils causes the ester molecules to be attracted to positively charged metal surfaces. As a result, the molecules line up on the metal surface creating a tough film with enhanced adhesion properties.
That translates into a strong and persistent film providing superior lubricity, lower energy (fuel) consumption and reduced wear.
 
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Walleye said:
...Sorry all I won't go for the just trust Honda or JASO, they seem to have merely perpetuated a weakness...
Click to expand...
I am puzzled by your comment above. You own a Honda...but you don't trust Honda engineers. But...you'll trust someone who posts something on the Internet that you've never met. Why did you buy a Honda then?

I owned a Burgman scooter at one time. Almost all of those who seemed to be knowledgeable said they used Shell Rotella oil. T6, I believe. That was my first exposure to it. I later bought a Honda NT700V and now I had a bike with an engine that shared the oil with the clutch. I didn't want to screw it up, but I did want to use the best. And what I was using before, was Energy Conserving and therefore could screw up the clutch.

So I spent an afternoon reading through threads at "Bob is the Oil Guy". Some guys sounded like they knew what they were talking about. But in the end, they were probably no different than any of us. They just knew how to sound knowledgeable about oil. But they did say some things that made sense to me.

Shell Rotella is one of a couple diesel oil products. Diesel owners (not your pickup diesel owners, but the guys who's engines cost what 10 Tesla S's cost), tend to not be swayed by the marketing fluff and claims on the side of the bottles. Their engines cost a fortune to buy, and taking them down for maintenance is equally expensive. They want something that works...and when they find it, they stick with it; they don't go with the latest fads. Shell Rotella is one of their favorites.

Every motorcycle I bought, I intended to keep forever...or at least 100,000 miles. My current bike has more miles than any of the others at just shy of 50K. I don't plan to ever sell it...but I wouldn't be surprised if I find another bike that catches my fancy and I buy it. My point is that it makes no difference if this bike could make 150K with Shell Rotella T6 or 200K with XXX brand oil. Who cares? I'll never have it. And none of the people who bought my previous bikes have put on more than 10K on the bikes since they bought them. They'll never see the end of life for this motorcycle.

The ST's have remarkable longevity. That was engineered into them...by Honda engineers.

Chris
 
Thats the nice thing about oil threads eventually intelligent people are forced to say intelligent things, make em work for that education all bound up in your head, it'll drive you crazy if you don't let some of it out now and then. The world did'nt advance to what we have now with people sayin thats it, good as it gets. If it hurts don't do it does'nt really apply when seeking a mechanical solution, its temporary til the next step evolves. John Browning never stopped amazing those who thought the bar could not be raised.
 
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