Does Honda hate ST Owners?

Vitaliy

Vitaliy

Joined
Feb 19, 2008
Messages
4
Location
Farmington Hills, MI
Bike
ST1300
Does Honda hate ST Owners?

After couple of drinks, I can finally think clear.
No, they don't hate us, they just want us to spend USD25k+ on the Gold Wing.
Nothing personal, just business.
They didn't need to replace ST with transformer looking CTX1300. It didn't solve any of ST issues and it was a waste of money that killed Honda's sport touring line.
What would you think could save it in 2014 or even now?
I see only a few changes that ST1300 needs in my opinion.

1. It is too heavy and need to lose at least 100 lbs. And that would be the major redesign of the frame and the engine/transmission. Still better then waist money on the CTX1300 or like.
2. Was it a problem to put a heat shield or wrap on the exhaust headers and increase the ventilation around the engine?
3. Gear ratio can be change for the first gear for easier low speed control with a jumpy throttle response. And on 70 mph I feel like the six gear is needed, or different ratio for the fifth.
4. Why to replace a part I need to remove the engine or to do some major disassembly? Fairings removal should expose almost everything, what was Honda designers thinking about? For example, to tight the bolts for flashing coolant from the engine bloc you need to remove exhaust headers, that's where they are hidden. Or no way to squeeze a torque wrench there. And for the clutch slave cylinder they want you to remove the engine...
5. Is it a big problem to replace basic neutral indicator with a real gear shift indicator (like N,1,2,3,4,5)? May be in 2003, but not in 2013 or later.
6. Gold Wing has a cruise control and I installed electronic CC in 2008 without any problem. Why didn't they have it as an option?
7. Why top box was not available in the US market, and I needed to buy it from the UK? Same with the speakers. No GPS or infotainment either... it was 2013, so I may be asking too much from Honda.
8. Front part of the front seat can be easily 2-inch narrower to have better control on the stops - look at the frame under the seat.

And this is only a small part of the long list of the small and relatively inexpensive upgrades that could save the ST. Oh well...

And now everybody, except Yamaha FJR, offer slightly modified adventure bikes as a sport tourer... What a shame!

P.S. Sorry for the whining, it probably was more than a couple of drinks, and I am in the middle of the maintenance and repairs for my old 06 ST. What a bike! And for the spelling, English is my second language.

P.P.S. Honda: Nothing personal...

Thanks,
Vitaliy
 
They expect you to go for an insectoid/UJM/ADV looking parallel twin with chain drive... NT1100... :rolleyes:

And don't you dare using your own GPS on it, the static radiation of the TFT dash/display in it's proximity will smash your sat reception...
 
Some very good points.
Sadly I think that ship has already sailed.
When looking around for a replacement the nearest I could get was a GTR 1400 and even that's looking a bit long in the tooth these days.
Seems like us Sports Tourer riders are becoming a niche market.
 
The world moved on........it does.
The GW certainly didn't replace the ST over here. GW what GW, you never see them. I haven't got a clue how many they've sold, but for England/Europe the RT is a far better package if you can live with the Boxer lump.
And then the elephant in the room, Adventure Bikes ( what a stupid name ), big tourers are not fashionable, were they ever so? Ewan and Charlie ( could anyone ever watch a full episode? ) are probably responsible for making gullible motorcyclists ( does that include me? ) think it was a good idea to tour on Adventure bikes.
If Honda do return with a shaft driven, sports touring motorcycle it'll be an EV or Hybrid, again the world moves on, but very few here would buy it because it isn't an ST. Some even like to call their GW's ST's, it must make them feel good inside but it ain't an ST, it's a low luggage capacity GW for folks with a very healthy bank balance or a liking for debt.
There are lots of good bikes out there and Honda has provided a few options since the ST to cater for the Sports Touring market. It's not their fault if you don't buy them. They have to move on, legislation says so.
ST's will slowly diminish and the only ones remaining in around ten years time will be garage queen's and high mileage used bikes kept alive by donor bikes and ever ageing owners. New riders, if any turn up, won't and don't have the appetite for the work required and no motorcycle workshops will be able to work on them.
FWIW.
Upt.
 
We ended up with two ST's, a 1991 and a 2006. I was shopping for a 1300 after reading rave reviews about it for years, and seeing a few up close, when I stumbled onto the 1100. It certainly lived up to its reviews. We lucked into the 1300 which was just as appealing in real life. Since I had performed the necessary maintenance on the 1100, we kept it. I think I prefer the ride of the 1100, it isn't nearly as 'agile to distraction' as the 1300...plus, my wife prefers the back seat ride.
Despite the rave reviews of the GL series, they lost me with the 'rolling sofa' phase. Never cared for the bird noses, transformer appearances, super low seating, halucinogen-inspired designs, or ATV stylings either. Harley hurt my feelings back in the 1960's and I never went back, despite the decent reviews the last few decades. Since I have restored bikes since the early 60's I think I can make do with anything else interesting that passes my way.
I would consider a nice CB1100, though.
 
All manufacturers of rolling stock tend to recommend major work to replace minor items that are hidden deep in the bowels of the machine. The fact that Larry can replace a clutch slave cylinder in an hour or two, and us novices can do it in 3 or 4 hours is proof positive that the mfrs are pandering to the dealer's service department. It's been said before, but bears repeating that any decent mechanic can halve the repair times in the flat rate manual - or he will be looking for another job.

If cars come with adjustable seats, why cannot motorcycles be designed to accomodate shorter riders as well as the tall fellows?
 
Upt' North said:
The world moved on........it does.
Click to expand...
This. There are a number of threads here that include sales figures and it seems reasonable to me Honda has no justification or duty to sell what would be a loss leader product. None. Honda as tried a few designs that didn't do well and they to were dropped. I don't have any idea what the sales numbers were for the various years but I don't imagine it was selling well when Honda pulled the plug. They continued on with the 1300P for a bit but that's gone too.

Had Honda been making a 2011 VF1100S (V65 Sabre) I'd be owning it instead of the ST. The only reason I got the ST was because I needed a bike for a trip to MT and that was the only bike Honda made that worked for me. So it's not hard for be to believe that at some point people began staying away in droves.

Since they didn't revived the V65 I learned to love the ST. But a contemporay Sabre with soft luggage and a third party fairing would be just fine.
 
Vitaliy said:
Does Honda hate ST Owners?

After couple of drinks, I can finally think clear.
No, they don't hate us, they just want us to spend USD25k+ on the Gold Wing.
Nothing personal, just business.
They didn't need to replace ST with transformer looking CTX1300. It didn't solve any of ST issues and it was a waste of money that killed Honda's sport touring line.
What would you think could save it in 2014 or even now?
I see only a few changes that ST1300 needs in my opinion.

1. It is too heavy and need to lose at least 100 lbs. And that would be the major redesign of the frame and the engine/transmission. Still better then waist money on the CTX1300 or like.
2. Was it a problem to put a heat shield or wrap on the exhaust headers and increase the ventilation around the engine?
3. Gear ratio can be change for the first gear for easier low speed control with a jumpy throttle response. And on 70 mph I feel like the six gear is needed, or different ratio for the fifth.
4. Why to replace a part I need to remove the engine or to do some major disassembly? Fairings removal should expose almost everything, what was Honda designers thinking about? For example, to tight the bolts for flashing coolant from the engine bloc you need to remove exhaust headers, that's where they are hidden. Or no way to squeeze a torque wrench there. And for the clutch slave cylinder they want you to remove the engine...
5. Is it a big problem to replace basic neutral indicator with a real gear shift indicator (like N,1,2,3,4,5)? May be in 2003, but not in 2013 or later.
6. Gold Wing has a cruise control and I installed electronic CC in 2008 without any problem. Why didn't they have it as an option?
7. Why top box was not available in the US market, and I needed to buy it from the UK? Same with the speakers. No GPS or infotainment either... it was 2013, so I may be asking too much from Honda.
8. Front part of the front seat can be easily 2-inch narrower to have better control on the stops - look at the frame under the seat.

And this is only a small part of the long list of the small and relatively inexpensive upgrades that could save the ST. Oh well...

And now everybody, except Yamaha FJR, offer slightly modified adventure bikes as a sport tourer... What a shame!

P.S. Sorry for the whining, it probably was more than a couple of drinks, and I am in the middle of the maintenance and repairs for my old 06 ST. What a bike! And for the spelling, English is my second language.

P.P.S. Honda: Nothing personal...

Thanks,
Vitaliy
Click to expand...
Well said , Honda was competing with the RT which had every accessory you could ever dream of including a BMW CD player, but with Honda you’d be lucky to get a spare key, faced with a choice of buying a bike with all factory options, or buying a bike and having to install all aftermarket options is not an option for some people.
 
A relatively small group of grumpy old guys, who maybe buy a few hundred bikes a year, is not likely to have much influence on a company that sells millions of other bikes.:biggrin:
The number of potential ST sales is not even a rounding error compared to the number produced.

www.statista.com

Worldwide motorcycle sales of Honda 2023 | Statista

Honda sold around 18.7 million motorcycles worldwide in the 2023 fiscal year.
www.statista.com www.statista.com
.
 
As someone who has been seriously looking at lighter bike options I don’t think there is a market in North America for a sport touring bike.
In my local market even the much beloved RT is not a quick seller. There are eighteen RTs for sale around me ranging in price from $3500 for an 03 R1150RT to $13,500 for a 2015 R1200RT.
Only one, a 2010 has more than 100,000 kms. The rest have 60,000 or fewer kms.

Triumph made a valiant effort with the Trophy to dethrone the RT but they saw the writing on the wall in 2017 and discontinued it.
Moto Guzzi had the Norge which from the reviews and owners forum was a decent bike with a great engine. But it’s gone.

That leaves the FJR and the Concours as the only ‘competition’ for BMW. And from a price perspective they aren’t really competing because even on the used market the BMW is several thousand dollars more than either.
 
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Well, we weren't a real big buying group for Honda in the first place. Like it or not Sport Tourers are going out of vogue and ADV's are the in thing right now. Although they are ugly they do have advantages, along with some disadvantages like mostly chain drive and high centers of gravity. Also the seat heights are stratospheric for munchkins like me. Even though I currently own 2 chain drive bikes and have gotten good mileage out of my chains, I wish at least the smaller one NC750X DCT was a shafty. My CB 1100 should be chain driven in my opinion. I got almost 40,000 miles on my original CB chain and have over 30,000 on it's replacement, both with very minimal care.

Still to me, something meant to be driven cross country should weigh under 600 pounds, have a shaft dive and cruise control, at least a 6 gallon fuel tank, and decent weather protection. Honda apparently disagrees.

I think it would have been nice for Honda to at least bring in the NT 1100 so I could see if I fit on the thing, even though it fails on several of my requirements.

This is probably the last year you will be able to buy a shaft driven Japanese sport tourer if you scoop up a 2023 FJR.
 
I suspect Honda is like any other organization that is they are in it for the money. Gone are the people that had the passion of the Founder of Honda Motors Corporation. Today the corporate bean counters are the ones making the decisions and it shows heavily. Nothing ground breaking has come from their car or bike engineers. Honda GP motor bikes are a joke as they are being out engineered by the Italians and Acura IMSA race cars show only a glimmer of running up front and trouble keeping up with the competition. Only the F1 cars of Red Bull shows real engineering from the Total package so is it accidental they are running a Honda engine or is it the other parts of this package that keeps them upfront. Finally I reflect on my present bike my 1100. This bike still brings me joy after 23 years of ownership doubt another bike could do that.
 
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