ABS vs Non-ABS

Joined
May 8, 2018
Messages
1,944
Location
illinois
Bike
2000 ST1100
Over 40 years of motorcycling without ABS. Will it help in a panic stop.....maybe. But one would be wise to get experience with your motorcycle to see what it will do in an emergency. 19 years of owning my ST1100 and have had a few wet shorts moments. Experience is what saved my bacon.
 

Uncle Phil

Site Supporter
Joined
Feb 26, 2007
Messages
11,250
Age
71
Location
In The Holler West Of Nashville, Tennessee
Bike
4 ST1100(s)
2024 Miles
002064
STOC #
698
Over 40 years of motorcycling without ABS. Will it help in a panic stop.....maybe. But one would be wise to get experience with your motorcycle to see what it will do in an emergency. 19 years of owning my ST1100 and have had a few wet shorts moments. Experience is what saved my bacon.
Practice is a wonderful thing - for situations that you have practiced for. Experience is a wonderful thing for facing situations that you have faced before. But when something comes up for which you are not prepared or haven't experienced - yes a good ABS system can save your bacon if it's saveable. But then I'm pretty new at this riding stuff … I've only got 50 years continuous experience and close to 1/2 million miles - without and with ABS. :biggrin:
 

st11ray

2006 ST1300
Joined
Jul 29, 2007
Messages
2,735
Location
charlotte, nc
Bike
'06 ST1300
STOC #
7189
For me it's the unseen diesel spill in Texas coming up to a red light where my ABS most likely saved me from a bad day. It wasn't even a panic stop.
I can't always see the slippery conditions coming. I like knowing the wheels aren't going to lock up in those conditions, especially in a panic braking situation.
True, I can do without the extra cash and a bit of extra weight, but it's a little insurance that even the best rider might be thankful for in a sudden stop situation. Also true you could go tens of thousands of mile without even activating the system... kinda like a helmet in that respect.
I was exiting I75 in Corbin, Ky in heavy rain on my way to Moonshine one year. The light at the bottom of the ramp turned red. I started applying the brakes. I could feel the bike sliding. Luckily no one was coming through the light as I had to release the brakes and go through the red light. It was a diesel spill. I don't believe ABS would have made any difference because my tires weren't going to get traction on that no matter what kind of brakes I had. My bike is non ABS because I got a good deal on it. If I had a choice, I'd take ABS over non ABS but I wouldn't pass up a good deal on a bike just because it wasn't ABS.
 
Joined
Jun 1, 2018
Messages
33
Location
Monkton Vermont
Bike
ST1300
You guys have missed my point completely. I think ABS is great and if I were buying a new or even a bike 5+- years old I would love to have ABS as well as other options. My point is that when you are considering buying a bike older than that your odds that the price of the bike may be just the down payment on impending repair bills increase significantly the older the machine is. That doesn't mean that your individual bike that you have carefully maintained would have those issues. In all likelihood you'll never have such problems. But buying a 10-15 year old machine on the word of a stranger that there are no issues and the maintenance has always been kept up is a big risk that is mitigated by the absence of complex options like ABS or electric windscreens.
 
Last edited:

jaysponger

Jay Rena
Joined
Mar 21, 2009
Messages
269
Location
Murrieta, CA
Bike
2007 ST1300
STOC #
7871
I had a non-ABS ST1100 and now own an ABS ST1300. The difference in braking is night and day. When I had both bikes, I always have to remind myself to watch my braking on my ST110. I don't want to lock it, which happened a few times. My ST1300 is amazing in stopping, very helpful in this crazy SoCal driving.
 

Uncle Phil

Site Supporter
Joined
Feb 26, 2007
Messages
11,250
Age
71
Location
In The Holler West Of Nashville, Tennessee
Bike
4 ST1100(s)
2024 Miles
002064
STOC #
698
If you are counting on the fact that you'll never have an accident or encounter a situation that is beyond your control, I wish you well. However, experience I've seen and encountered makes me think the odds of that never happening are pretty low. As for me, I'll take all the help I can get cause I ain't arrive at that level of riding perfection yet! :biggrin:
My personal example - leaned over hard at 70 mph in a nice sweeper with good pavement, hit a small walnut or a round rock blended with the pavement, handlebars snap away from me while my hand is draped over the front brake lever (usual riding position in case of pull outs) and the front brake lever gets a full pull with the front forks cocked. Ever practiced that one? If not for the ABS keeping the front brakes from locking up, I probably would not be keying this right now. As I said before, you don't need it til you need it.
 
Joined
May 8, 2018
Messages
1,944
Location
illinois
Bike
2000 ST1100
Mine was many years ago as I exited the interstate I underestimated the turn and came into it way too hot. I mean I was going 60 into that 15 mph curve. Jammed the breaks and felt the rear end slide just at that moment I let off the brakes and rode it out. The moral of my story is if you lock them up you are toast. Now today the point is mute because like cars ABS is standard on almost all big motorcycles and even some of the small bikes have ABS. I should of know better not to lock em up but I corrected in time. Have had a few more times I have had too slow down real fast learn't my lesson. As far as making a split decision it happens so fast that one cannot think that fast. This stuff has to have time soak in and that's where experience comes in.
 
Joined
Sep 24, 2018
Messages
139
Age
65
This is my first bike with ABS brakes, I would rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. On a big heavy bike like this it just makes sense, definitely a plus and should make it easier to sell in the future. I’ve been thinking of adding a VFR to the mix and just about decided I will not buy one without it.
 

Uncle Phil

Site Supporter
Joined
Feb 26, 2007
Messages
11,250
Age
71
Location
In The Holler West Of Nashville, Tennessee
Bike
4 ST1100(s)
2024 Miles
002064
STOC #
698
And what happens on a standard ST1100 is the rear brake is very easy to lock up if you are not paying close attention. And then the bike goes sideways and when you let off, it can almost toss you off the bike when it straightens up, depending on how far over you are into the slide. I had a fellow rider that had to make the bad choice of locking them because of an idiot in front of him suddenly panicked or hitting him and he ended up being launched off a 25 foot embankment from the momentum when he let off. You could look at the skid marks and see exactly what happened. What folks tend to forget that is regardless of how much you practice, in an adrenalin 'loaded' moment your muscles will put forth more effort than you intend them to do so when you grab the brakes/press the pedal it maybe with more force than you 'practiced'. And when Susy Q or Harry B turns right in front of you with no warning, survival instinct does tend to kick in when your brain calculates the stopping distance is somewhat 'lacking', adrenalin flows, and you grab more brake than you might otherwise do. As I said, it's just another piece of safety gear that you don't need until you need it.
 

dduelin

Tune my heart to sing Thy grace
Site Supporter
Joined
Feb 11, 2006
Messages
9,640
Location
Jacksonville
Bike
GL1800 R1200RT NC700
2024 Miles
006739
STOC #
6651
If you are counting on the fact that you'll never have an accident or encounter a situation that is beyond your control, I wish you well. However, experience I've seen and encountered makes me think the odds of that never happening are pretty low. As for me, I'll take all the help I can get cause I ain't arrive at that level of riding perfection yet! :biggrin:
My personal example - leaned over hard at 70 mph in a nice sweeper with good pavement, hit a small walnut or a round rock blended with the pavement, handlebars snap away from me while my hand is draped over the front brake lever (usual riding position in case of pull outs) and the front brake lever gets a full pull with the front forks cocked. Ever practiced that one? If not for the ABS keeping the front brakes from locking up, I probably would not be keying this right now. As I said before, you don't need it til you need it.
It’s amazing ABS saved your bacon with the bike leaned over hard like that. I thought I only the newest Bosch system worked when leaned over hard. I didn’t know Honda perfected it with the ST1100.
 

Uncle Phil

Site Supporter
Joined
Feb 26, 2007
Messages
11,250
Age
71
Location
In The Holler West Of Nashville, Tennessee
Bike
4 ST1100(s)
2024 Miles
002064
STOC #
698
I had a non-ABS ST1100 and now own an ABS ST1300. The difference in braking is night and day. When I had both bikes, I always have to remind myself to watch my braking on my ST110. I don't want to lock it, which happened a few times. My ST1300 is amazing in stopping, very helpful in this crazy SoCal driving.
Jay - Just a note - The brakes (not the ABS part) on the ST1100 ABSII are about as good as the ST1300 brakes. They have a lot more pad surface and the pads have ridges and are much more aggressive and have an 'extra' pot. I am planning on installing a ABSII front end on my 97 Standard just to get the better calipers, master cylinder and improved stopping power. On either of my ST1100 ABSIIs, I can bring the bike to a orderly, complete stop with just two fingers on the front lever and little effort. On my standard with stainless steel brake lines, it still takes a handful.
 

Uncle Phil

Site Supporter
Joined
Feb 26, 2007
Messages
11,250
Age
71
Location
In The Holler West Of Nashville, Tennessee
Bike
4 ST1100(s)
2024 Miles
002064
STOC #
698
It’s amazing ABS saved your bacon with the bike leaned over hard like that. I thought I only the newest Bosch system worked when leaned over hard. I didn’t know Honda perfected it with the ST1100.
Well, I don't know about all of that but I do know the ABS kicked in and I was leaned over hard (I think you've followed me enough to know I do tend to do that ;)) - it's pretty obvious if you've ever experienced it. Of course it's only one example and maybe I was just lucky. But after I cleaned my trousers out, I was also very thankful that I had ABS. :biggrin:
 
Joined
Sep 24, 2018
Messages
139
Age
65
And what happens on a standard ST1100 is the rear brake is very easy to lock up if you are not paying close attention. And then the bike goes sideways and when you let off, it can almost toss you off the bike when it straightens up, depending on how far over you are into the slide. I had a fellow rider that had to make the bad choice of locking them because of an idiot in front of him suddenly panicked or hitting him and he ended up being launched off a 25 foot embankment from the momentum when he let off. You could look at the skid marks and see exactly what happened. What folks tend to forget that is regardless of how much you practice, in an adrenalin 'loaded' moment your muscles will put forth more effort than you intend them to do so when you grab the brakes/press the pedal it maybe with more force than you 'practiced'. And when Susy Q or Harry B turns right in front of you with no warning, survival instinct does tend to kick in when your brain calculates the stopping distance is somewhat 'lacking', adrenalin flows, and you grab more brake than you might otherwise do. As I said, it's just another piece of safety gear that you don't need until you need it.
I had that happen to me back in the days before all these fancy brake options were available, I was lucky not to lay it down. Slid in a straight line for about 50 feet and glanced off his rear fender, my front wheel hit his rear bumper which absorbed some of the impact. Spun me around before hitting the pavement. I may have been able to stop that bike if I had ABS back then.
 

dduelin

Tune my heart to sing Thy grace
Site Supporter
Joined
Feb 11, 2006
Messages
9,640
Location
Jacksonville
Bike
GL1800 R1200RT NC700
2024 Miles
006739
STOC #
6651
...........What folks tend to forget that is regardless of how much you practice, in an adrenalin 'loaded' moment your muscles will put forth more effort than you intend them to do so when you grab the brakes/press the pedal it maybe with more force than you 'practiced'. And when Susy Q or Harry B turns right in front of you with no warning, survival instinct does tend to kick in when your brain calculates the stopping distance is somewhat 'lacking', adrenalin flows, and you grab more brake than you might otherwise do.....
Panic removing thought ...... That is not categorical. That’s exactly why pilots, peace officers, soldiers, etc. practice practice practice and train train train train for many scenarios. Training reduces the effect that surprises have on the upper brain and the ensuing panic reflex. Every rider that wants to improve his skill set should practice threshold braking regardless of ABS or not just like practicing cornering or foreseeing developing situations. Many riders ride just like they learned to then stopped learning to.
 

Uncle Phil

Site Supporter
Joined
Feb 26, 2007
Messages
11,250
Age
71
Location
In The Holler West Of Nashville, Tennessee
Bike
4 ST1100(s)
2024 Miles
002064
STOC #
698
Panic removing thought ...... That is not categorical. That’s exactly why pilots, peace officers, soldiers, etc. practice practice practice and train train train train for many scenarios. Training reduces the effect that surprises have on the upper brain and the ensuing panic reflex. Every rider that wants to improve his skill set should practice threshold braking regardless of ABS or not just like practicing cornering or foreseeing developing situations. Many riders ride just like they learned to then stopped learning to.
My point is not that you don't practice, but that you realize that there are times when all the practice in the world will not help. If you think that you can practice for every scenario that will ever happen while riding a motorcycle, then I am truly amazed. I guess all of that practice is why pilots, peace officers, and soldiers never ever make a mistake. There are no plane crashes because of pilot error, no wrong shots fired by the poor police who face more stuff than we can ever imagine or that they can practice for, or wrong actions by the military. One thing I learned when I was in the Marines from the boys coming back from Nam is this - You don't know what you will do when faced with certain situations - regardless of how much you practice. That ain't theory - that's reality from some folks that were very highly trained. I think this horse about dead and it would be good time to get off. :biggrin:
 

BakerBoy

It's all small stuff.
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
5,454
Location
Golden, Colorado
STOC #
1408
Having ABS is an easy decision for me and it is always interesting to me that some riders don't like it or don't care either way, thinking they won't need it. Riders can claim superb skill, that they've not needed it yet, that they'll never have a moment to need it, or that they are so well practiced that it is unlikely ABS will ever be needed. Yet they're still human, still get surprised, still get tired, still misjudge situations, and still ride where there are unseen variations in surface traction--all examples of when they can benefit from ABS.

My favorite analogy is that there's a reason F1 outlawed ABS: to keep F1 racing exciting. Banning ABS made F1 racing more interesting again, more human skill-based, more mistake prone. F1 has many of the absolute best, practiced drivers in the world and yet they still unintentionally lock up their wheels and slide off track even when they didn't do anything more aggressive this lap than last. They can't see the slight oil or moisture or rubber 'marbles' or a few pebbles thrown on the track that made the difference even when watching for it. These same drivers also grab too much brake and skid into an ongoing wreck even when trying to avoid it--they know locking the wheels gives them no ability to maneuver and manage the situation, and they know the limits of their braking unlike most any other pro drivers. And yet they still lock the wheels in that panic moment! The best practiced drivers make mistakes. Just like riders will do.

But regardless, it is each person's right to choose whether to like and have a bike with ABS, or not. :thumb:

You guys have missed my point completely. I think ABS is great and if I were buying a new or even a bike 5+- years old I would love to have ABS as well as other options. My point is that when you are considering buying a bike older than that your odds that the price of the bike may be just the down payment on impending repair bills increase significantly the older the machine is. That doesn't mean that your individual bike that you have carefully maintained would have those issues. In all likelihood you'll never have such problems. But buying a 10-15 year old machine on the word of a stranger that there are no issues and the maintenance has always been kept up is a big risk that is mitigated by the absence of complex options like ABS or electric windscreens.
Perhaps your point was not missed; your point is just a bit different than the theme of the thread thus far. You posted in a thread that has discussed whether to buy a bike to ride that has ABS or is non-ABS--this thread hasn't been about maintaining ABS on an old, poorly maintained bike.

But I can see the point fits the thread as well. So thinking about it:
If an ABS system doesn't work, wouldn't it be from the same neglect that would make the whole brake system, if not the whole bike, questionable? Further, it seems you can simply not buy old under-maintained bikes (whether they have ABS or not). Also, ABS units are highly engineered and reliable due to liability--I've not heard of one failing, but I've not been watching for that. Regardless, seems unlikely to me that even if there was only an ABS issue, that repairs would be 'increasing significantly' [for ABS] over repairing the many things of an under-maintained bike.
 
Joined
May 29, 2006
Messages
221
Location
Aurora, Colorado
I read an article several years ago about NYC taxies being converted to cars with ABS. Researchers figured the new safety feature would lower the accident rate. They were shocked that the accident rate was about the same, and traced it to more aggressive driving by the taxi drivers. Drivers figured they could push it more cuz the ABS would compensate and keep them out of trouble. They over-relied on ABS and got into accidents. Our two auto have ABS. My driving in snow is worse with ABS than it was without it. I consistently fail to give myself enough stopping time, cuz in the back of my mind, the ABS will keep the tires from locking up and I'll stop in time. Stupid assumption on my part, but I have lots of company in that regard. Many people shut off their brains and assume the technology will think for them.

My bike does not have ABS. I've only wanted it one time (on a road covered with hail stones). But I'd gladly take it if it came on the bike I was interested in. It's great if you ride like you don't have it, but know it's there when an unexpected situation comes up (oil spill, gravel on the road, etc.)
 
Top Bottom