ABS vs Non-ABS

Andrew Shadow

Site Supporter
Joined
Jan 28, 2012
Messages
5,069
Location
Montreal
Bike
2009 ST1300A9
That’s exactly why pilots, peace officers, soldiers, etc. practice practice practice and train train train train for many scenarios. Training reduces the effect that surprises have on the upper brain and the ensuing panic reflex.
It is my understanding that the reason these people practice the same scenario over and over is to remove the thought based analytical response when confronted with that specific situation and develop a "memory muscle" response. A reactive response happens much faster in the human brain than a response based on analysis and decision. Analysis and decison take time. The goal of the repeated practice is to have the person react instantly in the best way possible to the situation when they don't have time to think. It is presumed that what they were trained to do is the best response. Once the initial reaction has taken place they are trained to analyze and further react based on the situation but the initial response is mostly "memory muscle". Few people who ride on the road will ever be able to practice sufficiently for all of the variables that are present.

Are ABS brakes the best option in all situations? Possibly not- I don't know. In a panic situation where you are not even afforded the time to analyze and decide a course of action, let alone the best course of action, and where locking up the brakes even only for a second is the wrong response (even though it is instinctual and hard to fight) the ABS system is that memory muscle that prevents you from doing something that you shouldn't when you don't have the time to realize that through an analytical thought process. It is a definite bonus to any rider's safety in my opinion.
 
Joined
Aug 21, 2018
Messages
6,650
Age
68
Location
Richmond, VA
Bike
'01 & '96 ST1100s
STOC #
9007
I haven't ridden a bike with ABS, but I have driven cars with it. I have intentionally over-braked on low-traction surfaces (wet and gravel) to feel it work, and the main thing I notice is that I lose all fine control of the braking.

I can no longer regulate the pedal effort to increase or decrease the braking force. I'm being taken out of the loop. I'm being told that I can no longer be trusted to control the bike. I can't use my seat-of-the-pants senses.
 
Joined
Jun 1, 2018
Messages
33
Location
Monkton Vermont
Bike
ST1300
Having ABS is an easy decision for me and it is always interesting to me that some riders don't like it or don't care either way, thinking they won't need it. Riders can claim superb skill, that they've not needed it yet, that they'll never have a moment to need it, or that they are so well practiced that it is unlikely ABS will ever be needed. Yet they're still human, still get surprised, still get tired, still misjudge situations, and still ride where there are unseen variations in surface traction--all examples of when they can benefit from ABS.

My favorite analogy is that there's a reason F1 outlawed ABS: to keep F1 racing exciting. Banning ABS made F1 racing more interesting again, more human skill-based, more mistake prone. F1 has many of the absolute best, practiced drivers in the world and yet they still unintentionally lock up their wheels and slide off track even when they didn't do anything more aggressive this lap than last. They can't see the slight oil or moisture or rubber 'marbles' or a few pebbles thrown on the track that made the difference even when watching for it. These same drivers also grab too much brake and skid into an ongoing wreck even when trying to avoid it--they know locking the wheels gives them no ability to maneuver and manage the situation, and they know the limits of their braking unlike most any other pro drivers. And yet they still lock the wheels in that panic moment! The best practiced drivers make mistakes. Just like riders will do.

But regardless, it is each person's right to choose whether to like and have a bike with ABS, or not. :thumb:


Perhaps your point was not missed; your point is just a bit different than the theme of the thread thus far. You posted in a thread that has discussed whether to buy a bike to ride that has ABS or is non-ABS--this thread hasn't been about maintaining ABS on an old, poorly maintained bike.

But I can see the point fits the thread as well. So thinking about it:
If an ABS system doesn't work, wouldn't it be from the same neglect that would make the whole brake system, if not the whole bike, questionable? Further, it seems you can simply not buy old under-maintained bikes (whether they have ABS or not). Also, ABS units are highly engineered and reliable due to liability--I've not heard of one failing, but I've not been watching for that. Regardless, seems unlikely to me that even if there was only an ABS issue, that repairs would be 'increasing significantly' [for ABS] over repairing the many things of an under-maintained bike.
I haven't heard of an ABS failure on a motorcycle, but I haven't been looking either. What I do know is that I've had ABS controller failures on my 2002 Chevy Blazer, my 2014 Dodge Grand Caravan, and my son just recently had to replace the ABS controller and sensor in his 2012 Jeep Compass. These failures are common enough that there are many specialty shops on-line that specialize in rebuilding ABS units for domestic cars because it is far cheaper to buy a rebuilt unit than a new one. Again, I think ABS is a good thing but they can fail and common sense dictates that an old one is more likely to fail than a newer one no matter how well the bike has been maintained. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't buy an older bike with ABS but you should account for the possible cost of repairing it when you negotiate the price.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 1, 2018
Messages
33
Location
Monkton Vermont
Bike
ST1300
I haven't ridden a bike with ABS, but I have driven cars with it. I have intentionally over-braked on low-traction surfaces (wet and gravel) to feel it work, and the main thing I notice is that I lose all fine control of the braking.

I can no longer regulate the pedal effort to increase or decrease the braking force. I'm being taken out of the loop. I'm being told that I can no longer be trusted to control the bike. I can't use my seat-of-the-pants senses.
Hi Larry. This is off topic but I have to ask, are you related to the late great Larry Fine?
 

Attachments

Andrew Shadow

Site Supporter
Joined
Jan 28, 2012
Messages
5,069
Location
Montreal
Bike
2009 ST1300A9
I haven't heard of an ABS failure on a motorcycle, but I haven't been looking either. What I do know is that I've had ABS controller failures on my 2002 Chevy Blazer, my 2014 Dodge Grand Caravan, and my son just recently had to replace the ABS controller and sensor in his 2012 Jeep Compass. These failures are common enough that there are many specialty shops on-line that specialize in rebuilding ABS units for domestic cars because it is far cheaper to buy a rebuilt unit than a new one. Again, I think ABS is a good thing but they can fail and common sense dictates that an old one is more likely to fail than a newer one no matter how well the bike has been maintained. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't buy an older bike with ABS but you should account for the possible cost of repairing it when you negotiate the price.
My curiosity question would be is there any kind of ABS failure that can render the braking system inoperative?
It is my understanding that these systems are designed so that if they fail the worst that can happen is that you will not have any anti-locking feature but the brakes will function completely normally just as a non ABS brake system would. If the system fails and ABS is not a high priority than just don't repair it and continue as though the bike was a non ABS model. If this is the case then I see no reason to not buy an older ABS model because of fear of the system failing. If ABS is significantly inflating the price over a non ABS model of the same vintage and you are not willing to pay that premium that changes the equation. I would not expect there to be any significant price differential between the two models on an older bike however.
 
Joined
Jun 1, 2018
Messages
33
Location
Monkton Vermont
Bike
ST1300
My curiosity question would be is there any kind of ABS failure that can render the braking system inoperative?
It is my understanding that these systems are designed so that if they fail the worst that can happen is that you will not have any anti-locking feature but the brakes will function completely normally just as a non ABS brake system would. If the system fails and ABS is not a high priority than just don't repair it and continue as though the bike was a non ABS model. If this is the case then I see no reason to not buy an older ABS model because of fear of the system failing. If ABS is significantly inflating the price over a non ABS model of the same vintage and you are not willing to pay that premium that changes the equation. I would not expect there to be any significant price differential between the two models on an older bike however.
Good question. I don't know how a failed ABS manifests itself functionally but here in Vermont the bike would not pass the required yearly inspection if the ABS is not working and would not be issued an inspection sticker. As I understand it, if its on the bike or car it must work. We can't even get a car inspected here if a check engine light or any other warning codes show up during their test. In fact you can't even clear the codes before you bring it in for inspection because it also clears the emissions data and it won't inspect with no available data. Motorcycles are a bit easier but what they have for components must work and if they have a dash with warning lights they must not be active. Perhaps this is why I'm more sensitive to the possibility of hard to trace and expensive electrical issues because our DMV inspection system is such a pain in the ass. If we can't get a sticker for the bike or car it can't be driven on the road. You can't even take it to a different shop if it fails for some small reason because all inspection data goes into the state database and the next shop will see that it already failed when they log into the state system to process the inspection. One of the many things I love about my KLR650 is that there is so little to inspect because it is such a simple bike. Some states don't have any inspection requirement and the states that do all have different requirements so it would be good to be informed about your states inspection rules before you buy. For me, it would drive me nuts just knowing something on my bike wasn't working properly and I would fix it even if the brakes were still functioning.
 
Last edited:

Andrew Shadow

Site Supporter
Joined
Jan 28, 2012
Messages
5,069
Location
Montreal
Bike
2009 ST1300A9
True enough- I forgot about satisfying the red tape brigade and was only musing about how the brake system functioned.
 

Uncle Phil

Site Supporter
Joined
Feb 26, 2007
Messages
11,250
Age
71
Location
In The Holler West Of Nashville, Tennessee
Bike
4 ST1100(s)
2024 Miles
002064
STOC #
698
If ABS 'fails' on the ST1100, you just get annoying lights and the stoppers still stop as always.
You get the same effect by pulling the ABS fuses if you don't like the ABS.
My assumption is the ST1300 would work the same way.
The biggest brake issues I've seen are the secondary master cylinders (SMC) going south.
 
Joined
Jan 8, 2011
Messages
7,062
Location
Arizona
Bike
2007 Honda ST1300A
Hi Larry. This is off topic but I have to ask, are you related to the late great Larry Fine?
I look more like Curly...not Moe, Shemp, or Larry :rofl1:

I just pulled my ST (ABS) out of the garage, and drove around the block just because its snowing here in Tucson :rofl1:
From 30 miles per hour, in 4 inches of powder, grabbed both brakes, and they both activated, and stopped the bike in a straight line!
Now, back inside for Hot Coco :wind1:
 

wjbertrand

Ventura Highway
Joined
Feb 8, 2005
Messages
4,407
Location
Ventura, CA
read an article several years ago about NYC taxies being converted to cars with ABS. Researchers figured the new safety feature would lower the accident rate. They were shocked that the accident rate was about the same, and traced it to more aggressive driving by the taxi drivers. Drivers figured they could push it more cuz the ABS would compensate and keep them out of trouble. They over-relied on ABS and got into accidents.
This reasoning never made any sense to me and I don't think I agree with the conclusion of that study. I certainly don't go around thinking about my ABS brakes all the time and driving or riding differently. If you've spent any time in NYC, those taxis rarely get above 30 MPH. If the accident rate did not change, then the investigators began the study with a poor understanding of. or incorrect assumptions about the nature of the accidents to start with.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Apr 10, 2018
Messages
1,271
Location
Martha Lake
Bike
F900 XR
2024 Miles
000800
...I can no longer regulate the pedal effort to increase or decrease the braking force. I'm being taken out of the loop. I'm being told that I can no longer be trusted to control the bike. I can't use my seat-of-the-pants senses.
My first experience with ABS was on my 2011 Honda NT700V. I was in the HOV lane and saw the traffic slowing down up ahead. I was going to move over to exit in another mile anyway and decided now would be the best time. It's a lot easier to change lanes while moving than when stopped in packed lanes with no room.

The largest opening was behind a delivery truck. I moved in behind him and knew that he would be slowing down. I braked, watching the back of the truck and having no idea of what was ahead of him. What I couldn't see was that he was not just slowing down...he was coming to a complete stop from 60 mph. In an instant, I was braking as hard as I could. There was a curious vibration I remembered feeling as I began breathing again and feeling thankful that the driver behind me hadn't hit me. I realized it was the ABS kicking in. I was vertical on clean, dry concrete...and I kicked in the ABS.

Could I have stopped as fast without it? I don't know and wouldn't want to repeat the experience. But it really made me stop and think that here the ABS had kicked in. Not on a ice road. Not on a sand covered or mud covered road. But on clean dry pavement when I was vertical and had the most traction available.

It's getting hard to not find bikes with ABS, but I won't buy a new bike without it. I'm not a collector of old motorcycles, so that's a moot point for me of them not having it. Having ABS also opens up the possibility of traction control. The same technology that recognizes a difference in front/rear wheel spin for ABS, can be used for traction control.

Chris
 

SupraSabre

48 Years of SoCal Lane Splitting/Commuting-Retired
Site Supporter
Joined
Nov 20, 2005
Messages
9,498
Location
Cedar City, Utah
Bike
12/04 ST 1300s
2024 Miles
000145
STOC #
5901
I look more like Curly...not Moe, Shemp, or Larry :rofl1:

I just pulled my ST (ABS) out of the garage, and drove around the block just because its snowing here in Tucson :rofl1:
From 30 miles per hour, in 4 inches of powder, grabbed both brakes, and they both activated, and stopped the bike in a straight line!
Now, back inside for Hot Coco :wind1:
Now, go do that with a non-ABS bike and see if you get the same results! :biggrin:
 

paulcb

- - - Tetelestai - - - R.I.P. - 2022/05/26
Rest In Peace
Joined
Jun 4, 2013
Messages
4,652
Location
Celina, TX
Bike
'97/'01 ST1100 ABSII
STOC #
8735
Would a Rokon Trail breaker count? :rofl1:
Man, I nearly killed myself riding down a mountain on one of those one time! It ended up going end-over-end down a rock slide, without me on it thankfully.
 

rjs987

Robert
Site Supporter
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Messages
2,992
Age
68
Location
West Des Moines, IA
Bike
2022 Kymco AK 550
2024 Miles
000485
STOC #
8058
Interesting how long ago this thread was originally started but it still attracts posts.
I've always heard from some how great ABS is and how it helps someone stop so much faster than without ABS. That's a myth in part.
ABS only helps you stop faster if the alternative is that you won't be able to stop in time or at all due to tires skidding. Otherwise, if your tires retain enough traction to effectively use the brakes at all you will stop faster without the ABS system coming on at all. It that case, if you have and maintain traction for braking, if the ABS does come on you WILL firstly take longer to stop (since the action of ABS is to alternatively release and reapply the brakes to keep the tire turning meaning that some of the time ABS has shut off the brakes) and secondly there is a major problem with your ABS since you have traction for braking normally so the ABS should not have come on. I've only needed ABS on one bike in one stop, ever, so far. That was when it was my fault that I didn't notice the light turning red until I was really really close to the intersection on 2 very busy multi-lane streets. I grabbed as much brake as I could and locked up both tires. Oh, did I say this particular Vulcan 750 did not have ABS. I stopped in time but left a black mark about 25 ft long. Was straight up and going straight and the bike stayed going straight so no issues with laying it down. That was a time when ABS would have stopped me sooner and more safely. But every other stop I've done on a bike has been without the need (fortunately) for ABS to take over. I bought my CTX1300 with ABS because it was available and I figured I'd try a bike that had it. My 2013 Burgman 650 also has ABS. It is there just in case I need it but so far I have not needed it. Even doing some really serious braking similar to the above example of some BDC cutting me off in my lane. ABS didn't come on then but the brakes worked really well to shave off some speed to miss a collision. If you don't feel the stutter of the brakes going on and off and on and off and on then ABS is not being used.

That said I do believe there are some very skilled riders who are really good at using brakes on a mc who really do better without ABS than most average riders can do with ABS. I'm not one of those really skilled riders so ABS will likely help.

My CTX1300 also has traction control that is part of the ABS system. I have used that one or two times hitting a patch of sand or gravel when starting up from a stop.
 
Top Bottom