All about radar

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I am the KING of radar!~ LOL

Let me clear up a few "not quite right" impressions;
- Radar (microwave bandwidth) easily penetrates our tupperware, so burying the detector behind plastics won't hurt its performance. Other stuff in there might, but not the fiberglass.
- Radar uses Doppler reflections measuring the relative movement of an echo towards/away from the device. It does NOT measure movement across the beam- so a target can be going 90 miles an hour left to right; and as long as it was on an arch that stayed a consistent distance, it would not register.
- LIDAR uses laser (infrared light), so plastics will block the beam from the detector. It uses timed pulses of reflected light; how long did it take the beam to go out and hit the target and the reflection of that beam to return (at the speed of light). Some simple math and boom- there's the target speed Towards or Away. Ditto on left to right movement as above.
- Most all the top three/top models work sufficiently well, personal preference/feature is about the only thing to worry about
- Plenty of states allow detectors, some do not.
- LEO MUST visually see you and first form a Visual Estimation to issue a valid speeding ticket, they can not legally rely on the device (be it radar or LIDAR) alone. Speed estimation is very easy for most people to do with only a modest amount of training and practice. In a couple hours, you could estimate to within 5 mph towards or away. Simply put; its the same as learning when its ok to cross the road with approaching cars as little kids. Just fine tuned and real speeds determined instead of Go/No go. More practice and you can get it down to a couple miles an hour error. Some folks are freaks of nature and can estimate spot-on every time. With a LIDAR in my hand for proof; I've observed several of them do so and it is utterly amazing.
- A radar beam is about 285' wide at 1000 feet from the gun, LIDAR is about a 3' dot- virtually target specific (this is bad, very bad.).

The best practice with any detector (or otherwise speeding) is you still never want to be the fastest dumbass on the road. Cops have a high "prey drive" and it is uber easy to visually pick out the fastest vehicle and have it command all of their attention- not a good thing for successful speeding. So let the OTHER guy be the fastest, don't get greedy. Be patient, there will soon be a rabbit that comes along- let them tow you for a few miles, trailing a couple miles an hour slower- they will get painted first. Once they are too far ahead, slow on down and let 'em go, another rabbit ("prey") will be along shortly. Rinse/repeat.

Any detector won't do you a damn bit of good if you are the big, fat, stupid duck out in front. Your hope is the cop is painting OTHER vehicles and your detector picks up the beam's "overspray"- with sufficient notice to haul your speed down to legal before you get into sight and painted yourself. As you can imagine, there is little overspray from a LIDAR- keep that in mind; if you are painted with LIDAR, every device gives you just enough warning to get stopped and have your license and papers ready to present. Most radar on the market has two or three displays- Strongest; which is essentially the largest "profile"- a combination of; closest to the center of the beam, largest relative mass/profile/best reflectivity. Second is Fastest- this is the fastest target anywhere in the beam. Third, present in moving radar, is Patrol Speed- measures the speed of the patrol car over the ground (using a Low Doppler beam)- its needed to calculate a target speed when the radar is moving. (Total speed-Patrol speed=Target speed)

For best detecting, its quite helpful to filter out the radar bands that aren't used. In Kalifornia, Ka is the beam of choice, so I filter out everything but that and LIDAR- all the door opener bogey signals are ignored. What is key is CHP uses nothing but Ka band for radar, same for most (but not all) Sheriff and City agencies. As there is little value/little gain and a very high risk (accident or ticket) by speeding around town; I simply don't do it. It's on rural, twisty roads that I can get caught- so I want my detector focused on those agencies (CHP) that patrol those type of roads. Your mileage may vary- but knowing what radar bands are used where you ride is very helpful to set up those filters/unhelpful alerts. BTW- they aren't "false" alerts, indeed they are accurately reporting bona-fide detected energy in microwave bands- you can take the time (which will get you locked on) to sort it out or use the filters built in to do it immediately for you.

I'm a big fan of the H.A.R.D. remote indicator- integrated with Valentine 1 and others- it mounts to your helmet and has a little LED on a flex spaghetti arm thingie that you put where you like, in front of your eye(s), inside the helmet. You quickly get used to it and, as it is not in your focal plane, you soon don't even see it until it goes off- indicating detection. No ridiculous or irritatingly loud sounds, no muss, no fuss- love it. A guy in Texas sells them online, www.LegalSpeeding.com.

What else do ya want to know?
 
OP
OP
NorCalBusa
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Thanks guys.

I forgot to mention; the big dealio with the detector game is when you get a hit- you have haul it down to legal right away. Spend time diddling with front/rear, strength and all the rest and you're already locked on. Get it hauled down right away, then sort all that cool jazz out.
 

The Dan

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I was going to ask what bands to turn off but did a Google and found some more good info.

What frequencies do the police use?
With police radar, there are all different types operating on different frequencies.

X band operates in the frequency of 10.475 to 10.575 gigahertz. This was the first microwave band used by police.

This band is also shared with many other devices in the same band including your garage door opener, the door opener at your grocery store and the banks security alarm system. Because of all these other devices sharing the bands, there are allot of false alerts.

Many detectors come with the option of turning this band off to reduce these false alerts as only 20% of all the radar guns out there on the street operate on this frequency.

K band was developed for police use in 1976 and currently over 60% of all the police radar guns use this frequency. This band is in the 24.0 to 24. 25 gigahertz spectrum. There are also other devices that operate on this band such as garage door openers, but the chance of false alerts are much lower then X band.

Ka band was developed for police use in 1989 and is used by the other 20% of the police radar guns today. This frequency is in the 33.4 to 36.0 gigahertz range.

This band is the cleanest band and false alerts are rare. The range of Ka is also much shorter then X or K band.

What is laser?
The new dog on the street is police laser guns. These guns transmit a beam of infrared light at a frequency of 330 terahertz. It is estimated that there are over 50,000 police laser guns in use today in the USA.

The good news is that you can easily jam their guns with a laser jammer such as the BLINDER, the Escort Shifter, or Beltronics LaserPro. Laser jamming devices are also not regulated by the FFC but by the FDA and there is no federal laws regarding the jamming of police laser guns.

However three states have enacted laws banning the ownership, sale and use of laser jammers they are Minnesota (Minnesota Statutes 2002, 169.14) California (Sec. 1, Ch 493.28150, effective January 1999) and Utah (C. 41-6-52.7, 1998)

Hope this helps.
 
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Forks diving when painted by RADAR is an admission of guilt.... you better off opening your right hand and letting the throttle off and NOT hitting the breaks.


I once got pulled over on I20 in Alabama while passing 3 double trailered rigs in heavy crosswinds for doing 81 in a 65. I laughed at the officer and told him the lead truck MIGHT have been doing 81 but there was NO WAY he had 650lbs of Aluminum and steel tubing on RADAR next to 100k lbs of steel....His RADAR was not that selective. (Cant distinguish between a smaller target right next to a larger target. This is a function of Pulse repitition Frequency) When I pointed out that the wind was pushing his 290 lbs frame around like a ragdoll and was doing the same to those trucks I was passing he asked me how fast I was going.... "Off the record" I said, "I looked down when I saw you and was doing 121mph."


He gave me a warning.


Dont be a lone vehicle on the road at 11mph over, if in a group stay off the brakes and in all cases be respectfull and non-agruementitive. the points you save may be your own.
 
OP
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I disagree- get your speed down as quickly as possible; beat the radar acquisition.

Modern (<10 yrs old) radar has no trouble at all differentiating between a massive truck and a motorcycle- if the targets are moving at different velocities (this "difference" is needed to present a second target which the radar will detect. Indeed, it is detecting many more than presented in the display, but the program filters the others. Same speed will echo as one target). Make no mistake; it absolutely CAN distinguish large/small targets next to each other. I don't want you collecting a ticket based on that false info you picked up!

Example; Stalker's DSR2X can track and display FIVE targets at once; Strongest, Fastest, front, rear, towards, away and patrol speed.

Forks diving when painted by RADAR is an admission of guilt.... you better off opening your right hand and letting the throttle off and NOT hitting the breaks.


I once got pulled over on I20 in Alabama while passing 3 double trailered rigs in heavy crosswinds for doing 81 in a 65. I laughed at the officer and told him the lead truck MIGHT have been doing 81 but there was NO WAY he had 650lbs of Aluminum and steel tubing on RADAR next to 100k lbs of steel....His RADAR was not that selective. (Cant distinguish between a smaller target right next to a larger target. This is a function of Pulse repitition Frequency) When I pointed out that the wind was pushing his 290 lbs frame around like a ragdoll and was doing the same to those trucks I was passing he asked me how fast I was going.... "Off the record" I said, "I looked down when I saw you and was doing 121mph."


He gave me a warning.


Dont be a lone vehicle on the road at 11mph over, if in a group stay off the brakes and in all cases be respectfull and non-agruementitive. the points you save may be your own.
 

The Dan

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I disagree- get your speed down as quickly as possible; beat the radar acquisition.
I agree, I was told last fall that I was doing 86 when his gun went off but he got me locked in at 67 because I hit em hard when my detector went off. Got a butt chewing and a ticket for 67 in a 55.
 

Rodneypieon

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Couple of points of clarification on three threads. First modern moving radar can distinguish between two vehicles of vastly different sizes when they are side by side using the fast mode so The Dan he could have picked you off easily if he was properly trained. Second some lasers can not be easily jammed. The one I used in fact the unit I used had a jammer detector function on it. Lastly there is no range difference between X, K, and Ka band radar in fact of the three Ka is the best all around. The reason I know is I was the master instructor for my police service in radar and laser before I retired.
 
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Don't forget the Air Bears too. I got stopped in Iowa on IH35 and was told the air patrol clocked me at 76. Which according to Mr. Garmin was correct. And no they didn't paint me with radar or lidar either. My Escort was quiet the entire time.

He let me off with a warning.
 
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You are correct sir- if they are moving at different speeds. If Strongest and Fastest are the same- the device will display only Strongest.

This emphasizes why proper training and technique are so important and why a proper Visual Estimation with good Tracking History is needed for a righteous cite. Visual Estimation is what determines the violator's speed- radar and Lidar merely verify the observation.

Couple of points of clarification on three threads. First modern moving radar can distinguish between two vehicles of vastly different sizes when they are side by side using the fast mode so The Dan he could have picked you off easily if he was properly trained. Second some lasers can not be easily jammed. The one I used in fact the unit I used had a jammer detector function on it. Lastly there is no range difference between X, K, and Ka band radar in fact of the three Ka is the best all around. The reason I know is I was the master instructor for my police service in radar and laser before I retired.
 

Rodneypieon

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Visual Estimation is what determines the violator's speed- radar and Lidar merely verify the observation.

Exactly right which us why we empasize this when training. To use another example it is the physicals and drivng that get a DUI not the reading on the machine, again only corroboration.
 
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I am not versed on other states but can tell you in Penna only the state police are allowed to use radar. The small towns along the byways time you electrically and no detector is going to help you. If anyone has insight about this please share...thanks.
 
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You cant tell me all cops use visual estimation when they are on the back side of rise with their eyes trained thru their LIDAR units shooting you as you crest the top of the hill. Then they throw the gun in the car and peel out after you. They are relying on the LIDAR for the whole kit and kabootle.
 
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No one here told you they did sir, and I agree with you. I've often seen a radar/Lidar setup in a way that there is no sight to the oncoming cars, those getting a ticket should take it to court and prevail (they would have to argue effectively on the acceptable procedure).

You cant tell me all cops use visual estimation when they are on the back side of rise with their eyes trained thru their LIDAR units shooting you as you crest the top of the hill. Then they throw the gun in the car and peel out after you. They are relying on the LIDAR for the whole kit and kabootle.
 
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No one here told you they did sir, and I agree with you. I've often seen a radar/Lidar setup in a way that there is no sight to the oncoming cars, those getting a ticket should take it to court and prevail (they would have to argue effectively on the acceptable procedure).
Is this the case in CA or everywhere? Laws vary so much it makes me wonder if the visual estimate has to be taken with a grain of salt. I don't know, just wondering.
 
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Great question! Everywhere that NHTSA and IACP Standards have been adopted.... While I'd wager it is prevalent, I don't know which states do or not (except California, Utah and Arizona I know for sure do). I'd also say all the manufacturers require it in the Operator Handbooks, which is evidence if you get cited.

Is this the case in CA or everywhere? Laws vary so much it makes me wonder if the visual estimate has to be taken with a grain of salt. I don't know, just wondering.
 

wjbertrand

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LEO MUST visually see you and first form a Visual Estimation to issue a valid speeding ticket, they can not legally rely on the device (be it radar or LIDAR) alone.
I know this is true in California, hence there can be no unmanned automatic speed camera radar traps unless the law is changed. I don't think this is the case in every state however. I know for a while Arizona had a few automatic radar ticket dispensers around Phoenix, but I believe they've all been removed now.
 

Rodneypieon

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Example; Stalker's DSR2X can track and display FIVE targets at once; Strongest, Fastest, front, rear, towards, away and patrol speed.

This is true as this is the set I used to operate but you would have to be superhuman to watch 5 windows at once and you can only chase one violator so you usally only use one antennea at a time.

To answer the question about brake hard or slow down gradually. With a good operator using the set properly you are toast and she/he will get you every time. A good opertor runs with the set on standby so it does not transmit any beam. They see the speeder make their estimation and turn the set on. The radar beam goes out at the speed of light hits the vehicle and returns at the speed of light and the set then calculates and displays the speed in about 1 - 3 seconds. The speeder has to first recognize the detector going off, decide what to do, and then react. Stats show us Olympic atheletes can react in under 4 secs on average, the rest of us usually taker longer. In my province we don't even have to lock your speed in to the set, but we do, our laws say we just have to see thew speed displayed and that is good enough to issue a ticket and convict.

If the radar operator is not that good you have a chance if you don't draw attention to yourself and they are unconfident with their visual estimation ability.
 

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I appreciate the information being shared and generally have a detector with me. One of the detector's benefits, for those of us not speeding, is forewarning that other vehicles with detectors speeding by may be slamming on their brakes as their detectors go off. Generally, they'll slow down below the speed limit and being able to react at the same time as them instead of a second or two after . . . might be beneficial.

Shuey

PS: For those interested in this thread, I'll note that Rodney started another similar thread that's also very informative.
 
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