Anyone de-linked the brakes?

Igofar · Jul 30, 2012

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st1300r · Jul 30, 2012

Which bleeder are you opening the center piston or the out 2?

Igofar · Jul 30, 2012

SupraSabre said:
Thanks Joe...Here I have 154K on my '05 and the brakes just seem to keep working ....All I have ever done is to bleed them a few times and and clean the pistons when replacing the pads. :

Maybe because I'm riding it all the time, it keeps things moving....

Although, I'm sure if Larry (Igofar) looked at them, he would say they are in terrible shape...lol

You do realize that it is possible to just ride it into the ground right? :rofl1:

Igofar · Jul 30, 2012

Just a reminder to all the folks following the SMC/Brake Dragging issues...
There is another master cylinder that is often forgot near the foot lever.
I wonder how many people inspect and clean this one during their services?

NorCalBusa · Jul 30, 2012

What does Honda say? If you trust that dealer's technician- why not book it for a first thing AM visit and go enjoy the day in that town (or drop it off and fetch it another day)? Brakes are kinda important, so I'd not settle for "fixed"- culprit identified and exorcised!

st1300r · Jul 30, 2012

Which would kinda point you there instead of the smc if the rear locked up with the pedal while NOT under motion.

playfair · Jul 30, 2012

I've thought about de-linking a few times, mainly to prevent the rear lockups I've read so much about on here, but also because the rear pads wear out too fast if you brake with the front assist and rear pedal.

What would happen in Jacks case if he simply unpinned the smc joint from the holder such that applying front brakes did not activate it? The rear pedal linking would still function up to the front (more important IMO), but the front would no longer link to the rear?
Of course, this would only fix the problem if your rear brakes work normally off the pedal and only locked when braking front while moving.

Justytroll · Jul 30, 2012

154K? I would buy a new rear master cylinder. The fact that the front brake doesn't cause the rear to lock rules out the linking. I would just order a new rear master cylinder and call it done. Sounds like the bleed off circuit on the rear master cylinder is plugged.

Cousin Jack said:
My original post didn't have enough information, I guess........here's kind of a flesh-out!

My rear brake seized today on my Honda ST1300; and I had to crack open a bleed nipple to get the pads off the disc.... I nursed it home then, and had seemingly normal front brakes. Safe at home, I'd pump the front lever and everything was okay, the rear caliper would not stick, but if I so much as touched the rear pedal, the rear caliper would clamp tight, and I'd have to crack the bleed nipple again, and pry the pads away from the disc...... and when I would crack the nipple, the brake fluid pulsed out like an arterial wound!

Two years and 17,000 miles ago, I put on a brand new secondary master cylinder, built myself a home-made vacuum bleeder (see pic), bought a shop manual, found an illustrated guide (on here, I think) and bled the brakes as carefully and as well as my wife and I could. I live in a small town, and the dealer is a mountain range and 115 miles away, and so we do our own work. And everything was fine with the brakes, until today.....the rear disc would sometimes feel warm during the "okay" time, but never overly so. If anything ever causes me to sell the ST, it will be this issue. I'd still like to delink the brakes somehow, with plugs and custom lines, and go back to front lever/front, and rear pedal/rear. Damn engineers are too clever for their own good.......

How should I start with this problem? Clean and maybe rebuild the rear m/c? Redo the whole system again, with a new SMC (my second in 36K miles)? I don't mean to be a crybaby; I love this bike, except for this issue....

Igofar · Jul 30, 2012

playfair said:
I've thought about de-linking a few times, mainly to prevent the rear lockups I've read so much about on here, but also because the rear pads wear out too fast if you brake with the front assist and rear pedal.

What would happen in Jacks case if he simply unpinned the smc joint from the holder such that applying front brakes did not activate it? The rear pedal linking would still function up to the front (more important IMO), but the front would no longer link to the rear?
Of course, this would only fix the problem if your rear brakes work normally off the pedal and only locked when braking front while moving.

If you removed the SMC by altering the plunger (unpinned) you would also be removing the use of most of your rear brakes. Refer to diagram in service manual.

Igofar · Jul 30, 2012

Justytroll said:
154K? I would buy a new rear master cylinder. The fact that the front brake doesn't cause the rear to lock rules out the linking. I would just order a new rear master cylinder and call it done. Sounds like the bleed off circuit on the rear master cylinder is plugged.

Anyone out there open up the REAR master cylinder by the foot lever to inspect it before?
Justytroll may be on to something here.

scooterdoc · Jul 30, 2012

Igofar said:
Anyone out there open up the REAR master cylinder by the foot lever to inspect it before?
Justytroll may be on to something here.

Great point. although SMC is the root cause very often, a complete disassembly and cleaning of the ENTIRE brake system is the only way to verify.
Just a thought, Like Igofar suggested, you can have more than one faulty component during a failure process.

Igofar · Jul 30, 2012

scooterdoc said:
Great point. although SMC is the root cause very often, a complete disassembly and cleaning of the ENTIRE brake system is the only way to verify.
Just a thought, Like Igofar suggested, you can have more than one faulty component during a failure process.

Waaazup doc?

Mcreviver · Jul 30, 2012

Service Manual page 17-6 Troubleshooting~Brake drags == Contaminated brake pad/disc, Misaligned wheel, Clogged/restricted brake hose joint, Warped/deformed brake disc, Caliper not sliding properly, Clogged/restricted brake hydraulic system, Sticking/worn caliper piston, Clogged master cylinder port.
Rear wheel locks when only the brake lever is applied/Front wheel locks when only the brake pedal is applied(in the case that all items are normal in "Poor lever/pedal brake performance." = Faulty brake porportional control valve.
I would be looking at the rear master cylinder having the bleed hole being blocked and if that was okay I would suspect the porportional control valve. If prior experience points to the SMC, then go for that instead.

scooterdoc · Jul 30, 2012

Igofar said:
Waaazup doc?

Not much. still trying to dry everything out after using the ST like a Submarine on friday.
At least my waterproof jacket liner is dry. :banghead:

playfair · Jul 30, 2012

Igofar said:
If you removed the SMC by altering the plunger (unpinned) you would also be removing the use of most of your rear brakes. Refer to diagram in service manual.

I see that the SMC pushes on the two outer pistons, while the pedal only actuates the center piston. Too bad this isn't the other way around!

Uncle Lumpy · Jul 30, 2012

Cousin Jack said:
My original post didn't have enough information, I guess........here's kind of a flesh-out!

<snip>

How should I start with this problem? Clean and maybe rebuild the rear m/c? Redo the whole system again, with a new SMC (my second in 36K miles)? I don't mean to be a crybaby; I love this bike, except for this issue....

Cousin Jack, I've been contemplating de-linking my brakes as well. I've come to the conclusion that it would be easy to do, but maybe somewhat expensive. I would put in custom length Spiegler braided brake lines. I used Spiegler items on my SV1000 6 or so years ago and was very happy with their service. I would run a dual banjo bolt from the front MC. Each braided line from the front MC would split and be routed to the 4 front caliper banjo bolts. The dual banjo bolt from the rear MC would send two lines to the rear caliper, one for each rear caliper banjo.

Because the front MC would now be pushing 6 caliper pistons rather than the 4 it currently pushes, I'd be concerned about whether it would push enough brake fluid. Given that, I'd probably buy a 2006 Honda CBR600F4i front MC and install that instead of the ST front MC. The 600F4i's front MC normally moves 8 pistons, so it would certainly move enough brake fluid to move the ST's 6 front caliper pistons.

I would drain whatever fluid was in the SMC and then use non-banjo bolts to seal the openings and just let the SMC hang there rather than trying to mess with the ST left front caliper.

I would also pull off all the original brake hoses, brake pipe, proportioning valve, and delay valve stuff to keep the brake system as basic as possible.

This might end up being my winter project if I elect to go through with it.

Uncle Lumpy :06biker:

Cousin Jack · Jul 30, 2012

Wowser! I just got off the phone with Igofar....... what a guy! He's already taught me more about the ST's brakes than I realized that I had to know! Just as valuable, he's given me enough confidence to believe we can beat this thing! What a valuable resource! What a great forum!

SupraSabre · Jul 31, 2012

Igofar said:
You do realize that it is possible to just ride it into the ground right?

Nah, if it needs replacing, it will be replaced, but brakes and carbs were never my strong point! I do get by with them tho and the brakes seem to stop when I need them, so I must be doing a few thing right...lol

Just glad I don't have to deal with carbs any longer.

Igofar · Jul 31, 2012

SupraSabre said:
Nah, if it needs replacing, it will be replaced, but brakes and carbs were never my strong point! I do get by with them tho and the brakes seem to stop when I need them, so I must be doing a few thing right...lol

Just glad I don't have to deal with carbs any longer.

From what I hear, you do quite a few things right

As far as Carb Vs. EFI...I'd rather have a good old fashion carb any day.
Call me old school.

Igofar · Jul 31, 2012

Cousin Jack said:
Wowser! I just got off the phone with Igofar....... what a guy! He's already taught me more about the ST's brakes than I realized that I had to know! Just as valuable, he's given me enough confidence to believe we can beat this thing! What a valuable resource! What a great forum!

Thank you for the kind words

:
Let me know when the TOOL arrives!

Anyone de-linked the brakes?

Igofar

st1300r

Igofar

Igofar

NorCalBusa

st1300r

playfair

Justytroll

Igofar

Igofar

scooterdoc

Igofar

Mcreviver

scooterdoc

playfair

Uncle Lumpy

Doc Holiday

Cousin Jack

SupraSabre

48 Years of SoCal Lane Splitting/Commuting-Retired

Igofar

Igofar