Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 20??

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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

I'd sell both bikes I own if Honda could bring a true competitor to the GS to the US and not a half-arse attempt either Ma Honda.
Honda makes weird decisions about what goes where. A few years ago, they brought the Varadero into Canada. For me (and it seems, for most) it was a big disappointment. By that time it was also closing in on ten years old and it felt it. The v-strom did everything that the Varadero did, better and cheaper and that's why I bought a wee. But I agree that if the Crosstourer were here, I would take a look at it for sure.
 
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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

The number of licensed FJR's in the UK has also stagnated since 2008 (no YOY growth). This despite Yamaha introducing very significant upgrades to this model in the same period. If I'm a bean counter at Honda, I would conclude there is no more return on an existing model that even has upgrades. At best, you keep existing customers happy but you are not growing the sales.
But they are keeping their buyers, while Honda is losing theirs. Once a type of bike is established, eventually the number of new buyers drops off and the sales numbers stay relatively unchanged. Sport Touring is at that point. Now the MFGs have to stay on top of their models to keep their buyers, rather than losing out to another brand.

Another point to consider is the growing Adventure Bike market. Those buyers are coming from somewhere. If Yamaha is keeping their FJR sales figures relatively flat, they are doing well. Triumph is taking a bit of the share, most likely more of Honda's buyers than Yamaha's. The Adventure Bike class is a great compromise- the versatility of a dualsport with the reliability of a touring bike. Now to see if it's a fad or here to stay. The GS bikes have been around long enough, and enough other brands are jumping in, it looks like they are here for a while. They are taking some of the Sport Touring buyers; but going back, some brands are keeping their sales figures fairly stable while Honda is essentially out of the Sport Touring market. But they haven't even brought an adventure bike to the U.S.! So they seem to be dropping one market and ignoring a growing one.
 

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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

the ST hasn't been updated in 11 years
or, another way to look at it is,,,it has only been updated once in 22 years. 1100 to 1300:(
 
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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

Someone please tell me why a publicly traded company would sink millions to design and develop a new model of motorcycle in order to sell a couple thousand models, most of which are not sold in the current model year produced but at a later year at a deep discount. Those that don't think the sport-touring niche is small to begin with and probably shrinking really need to wake up. We've never represented a very large segment of riding, especially in the US, aka the land of the cruisers.
Someone better tell Yamaha, Kawasaki, BMW, and Triumph! I guess they are doing it all wrong.
 

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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

If the argument is that Honda is not selling the ST because it's outdated, then why did the dealers only carry only one or two when the model was new? Why do dealers only have one or two of any sport touring model on the floor next to 20 cruisers, 10 sportbikes and 5 adventure bikes? Even Gold Wings get more floor space than sport touring models.
As I'm coming up to speed on the FJR, it's success is very similar to the ST. It came out in 2003 and for the most part has had no major upgrades until 2013, then it is major. Most dealers I called looking for a 2013 model, like Honda dealers, only ordered one to put on their floors. To expensive and to risky to order them more than one at a time as they don't sell.

Well . . . Honda-Yamaha of Memphis ordered 20 of the new FJRs and sold them all in short order at a good price. Their next big order is on the way. They sell bikes because they get bikes and sell them reasonably. The Honda parallel . . . they're new and overpriced ordered by dealers in ones and twos, but after they sit for a year or two and the dealer marks them down to a reasonable price, they sell.

There's nothing confusing here as far as I can tell. This is Marketing 101.

Shuey
 
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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

I chose not to buy new because I saved a couple thousand dollars over the new price; I knew I wanted to farkle the bike, and didn't want to wait until the warranty was up; dealers up here just don't do test rides; and dealers up north rarely offer the perks of new bike buying, such as a discount on accessories purchased with the bike. I can't speak for other parts of the country, but I chose not to pay a premium price for a bike I would have lots of restrictions on. The dealers are helping to push customers away as much as the outdated styling.
 

Bug Dr.

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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

I chose not to buy new because I saved a couple thousand dollars over the new price; I knew I wanted to farkle the bike, and didn't want to wait until the warranty was up; dealers up here just don't do test rides; and dealers up north rarely offer the perks of new bike buying, such as a discount on accessories purchased with the bike. I can't speak for other parts of the country, but I chose not to pay a premium price for a bike I would have lots of restrictions on. The dealers are helping to push customers away as much as the outdated styling.
I'm not sure about restrictions on a new bike. I added several things to my ST without risk of voiding the warranty.

Your last post bolsters my previous one also. Why go buy a new one when you can pick a ten year old version of the same bike at a fraction of the cost? If Honda had revised the ST somewhere along 2008 maybe this would not be such a problem for them as people would want a newer bike with, hopefully, new features. Instead, they chose to leave the ST alone for 11years. Why? Because they haven't sold enough to justify the cost of retooling OR they don't feel that there are enough buyers in the future to justify the expense. Until either of those changes, the ST will remain the same or they kill it outright to keep from being embarrassed by trying to sell a brand new version of an 11 year old bike for $18K. Under these uncertain economic conditions which do you think is most likely?
Mike
 
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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

I'm beating a dead horse at this point but I'll ask this one more time. If the argument is that Honda is not selling the ST because it's outdated, then why did the dealers only carry only one or two when the model was new? Why do dealers only have one or two of any sport touring model on the floor next to 20 cruisers, 10 sportbikes and 5 adventure bikes? Even Gold Wings get more floor space than sport touring models.[/QUOTE]


I think there is truth in this. The reasons may be that sport bikes crashed easy, or worn out quicker and sold more but tourers are not that way. More experienced riders who knows fixing and taking care of their babies....Just a theory....
Bmw's gt1600 is nothing but a suped up st1300 if you look at it. My avatar shows my st and my friends gt1600 and that bike almost same size (not weight) as an st1300. So there is still market, small or not. If bmw creates a new bike for that segment, honda have no excuse there. Speed wise I keep up with him almost all situations and my bike is 2004 with 60k miles his is 2012 with 3k miles.
 
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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

"For all of you new ST dreamers:
Someone please tell me why a publicly traded company would sink millions to design and develop a new model of motorcycle in order to sell a couple thousand models, most of which are not sold in the current model year produced but at a later year at a deep discount. Those that don't think the sport-touring niche is small to begin with and probably shrinking really need to wake up. We've never represented a very large segment of riding, especially in the US, aka the land of the cruisers."


Sure I can, with pleasure;
BMW comes up with brand new, (not updated, designed from top to bottom) new design, millions spend, 6cylinder gt1600 with the whole 9 yards. That PROVES there is market for sport tourers which gt1600 is. I don't look anything but reality. No statistics, he or she said's.... Bmw did this, yamaha updated theirs... Motoguzzi, kawasaki, ducati all have their tourers. If there is no market or the market is small (some claim here) basically, they are stating, indirectly, that all these companies are stupid. Which they are NOT! These facts shows that there is still a PROFITABLE MARKET.. even for a brand new development cost. No one here yet to disprove this fact here in my opinion, they just come up with FUNNY things.... like..... "there is no market look at the statistics....(for the 50th time)"
Now honda did the same (came up with a new design) but they sucked soooo big with their vfr1200f, that it sunk worst than titanic, just because the fact that they did not listen the customers and they did their own thing instead. It is not a bad engine or a bad bike but it doesn't have what people want and it has some things what people don't care much. Result is a disaster. Some will defend (employee or kid syndrome here again) that it is not a disaster but (again 50x time) there is no market....
Lastly; many claim updated cost millions... That I have to say that they don't know what they are talking about... That is SO UNTRUE... To update a heated grip or a cruise control will cost honda NOTHING. They already have the grip, bike and the engineers. They are already there. Please don't fool yourselves... If you want to change the engine size, yes, it is costly. But that is not the same if you want to change the signal light from yellow to red or to put a better aerodynamic windshield.
So the conclusion is; honda sold st1300 very good at the beginning many loved it, than they did not do any update to the bike almost for 11 years and people chose other brands. Kawasaki, yamaha, bmw (2 tourers actually rt1200r and gt1600), ducati, triumph, motoguzzi all have updated bikes and people tend to choose them. I still do believe ST1300 is an awesome platform and with updates it can ruin many other brands with a heart beat.


NOTE; I forget to mention that beside the gt1600, which is a new design, they also updated rt1200r tourer almost every year..... now it has everything except a microwave oven... But of course bmw is soooo stupid that they didn't know that there is no market or maybe they are getting their update or development money from the ALIENS, so it doesn't really cost them billions and billions like it does to honda... Our friends should tell them that they should stop updating their bikes or at least for the love of god not to develop new ones like the gt1600.... THERE IS NOOO MARKET......
 
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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

Honda put their money into the Gold Wing and F6B for the American market. They sell them around the world too and nothing else can compete.
 

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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

Honda put their money into the Gold Wing and F6B for the American market. They sell them around the world too and nothing else can compete.
The F6B is looking like a real success - guessing...

Too bad they didn't come out with it after the Rune - there would have been a lot of Valkyrie guys jump ship for that IMO... There were some of them that bought wings and deleted the trunks to get that same bagger look.
 
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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

Lastly; many claim updated cost millions... That I have to say that they don't know what they are talking about... That is SO UNTRUE... To update a heated grip or a cruise control will cost honda NOTHING. They already have the grip, bike and the engineers. They are already there. Please don't fool yourselves... If you want to change the engine size, yes, it is costly. But that is not the same if you want to change the signal light from yellow to red or to put a better aerodynamic windshield.
Exactly what I have been saying they should have done around 2007. Most vehicles, not just bikes, have major and minor updates- a major redesign, and half way between major redesigns, an update- usually cosmetic and changes in options. If Honda had changed some plastic, and added the features many of us have been asking for, they would have freshened it up enough to stay competitive for a few more years. Other than the weight (and not all of us complain about that), the ride & handling are very competitive still. Heck, they could have added electronically adjustable suspension while keeping the engine & basic platform the same (or minor tweaks to the engine for more power...always a big selling point!) Making these changes would have resulted in a nearly new model without having to spend the millions on govt testing an all new model would require.
 
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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

I personally hope that any redesign of the ST doesn't change it too much. I like the fact that the ST does not have all the electronically controlled accessories that manufacturers are putting on there motorcycles these days. I had an 04 BMW K1200GT before the ST. I had to worry about the power assisted ABS brakes failing suddenly which they did on occasion. As I recall the ABS module replacements were about $700.00 and according to the forums, failures were not uncommon. To BMW's credit I think they did away with the power assisted brakes in later models. Others may differ in there opinion but I don't want any additional electronic extra's that can break or fail. I chose the ST because of its reputation for diesel like reliability. I value that over traction control or even heated grips.
 

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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

......snipped......
Bmw's gt1600 is nothing but a suped up st1300 if you look at it. My avatar shows my st and my friends gt1600 and that bike almost same size (not weight) as an st1300......
This thread is full of opinion and not much in the way of facts. Be that as it may you have included this statement which is easily checked against facts. According to BMW's website the K1600GT weighs 732 lbs with panniers and at least 90% full of fuel. My non ABS ST1300 weighs 700 lbs with no panniers and a 100% topped off tank of gas. I'll attach a pair of weight certificates for my 2005 ST1300. Without panniers it weighs 700 lbs and with panniers and the tire repair kit w/compressor in the RH pannier it weighs 720 lbs. ABS adds 9 lbs. It's not much but the heavier bike is 3 lbs more than the ST1300 ABS.

 
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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

You know the weight of the ST. That's awesome. I've been telling everybody 750#. Guess I was a little high, but probably in the ballpark with all my junk in it and a top case.
 
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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

Yea dduelin you are right. That is the best part of this forum, you can bring facts or ideas, all welcome and considered accordingly....

It is very sad that st1300 weights same as gt1600 (with 6 cylinders).... I didn't know the weight of both so i wrote "not the weight". I thought if I didn't people will chew me out. I thought gt1600 was like 800lb or something...

ridingfl; abs and traction control uses the same speed sensors, if they brake down no problem, system disengages them. If you don't like it, just don't fix them. You will be fine. Your bike become non abs and non traction control model.... If you want you can even sell the parts and make money too. (i am serious, not joking). My abs is not working for 1.5 years now. But I believe they are good tools for many who ride in rain and snow mostly. Today I ordered a front sensor so I am hoping to fix it before this winter.
Cruise control, extra power outlet, TPMS (very crucial in my opinion), are extremely needed upgrades for st1300. But the most important one is the weight loss which st1300 desperately needs.
 
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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

Badger what you said about the ST ABS system makes sense. The problem with the BMW power assist brakes were that they were not just limited to when the ABS kicked in. They were like power brakes on a car and engaged any time you applied the brake except when they failed to work due to an electronic glitch. Then you went from power to manual. Manual required a substantially heavier pull on the brake lever then the normal power assisted effort. Even a heavier pull then normal manual brakes. Not something you wanted to deal with too often. On occasion the ABS warning light would come on so that you new that your brakes might be in manual mode. In all fairness to BMW I think it may have been related to a flashing tail light bulb the prior owner added even though it was supposedly a pre canbus bike. Perhaps the bulb flashing was changing the load on the brake circuit that the computer was reading. It didn't seem to do it too much after I removed it, replaced the stock bulb and added a hyper-lites instead with a separate Centech fuse box.
 
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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

I think that BMW dropped the servo brakes from all their models in the mid-2000's. I think I recall that there were a couple of law suits over them. IMO, they were an example of unnecessary technology.

The thing to remember about the K1600 is that it is priced higher than an equivalent GW. I know one GW long-timer who testrode the K1600GTL and liked it, but could not justify the additional $3k +- that it would cost relative to a new Wing.

This kind-of addresses the reason for the question I posed in the poll, that being what 'what are you willing to pay for an upgraded ST replacement'. BMW owners are happily paying a premium for the K1600 and it is a success. But how many of us would pay $25k ++ for a new ST13?
 

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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

You won't pay $25k for an upgraded ST... like you said, that's Wing territory. The Wing would be upgraded to address the K16, not the ST.
 
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Re: Replacement for the Honda ST1300 in 2014?

I don't think an upgraded ST needs to be over $20k. The Super Ten has more technology than the current ST for $14k. The FJR is way ahead of it for well under $20k. Currently Honda is trying to sell an $13k bike for $18k while wondering why they aren't selling. Try coming up with $18k worth of bike and see what happens.

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