BT45 tire cracking???

I really don't need to worry about the cold, but I like Michelin better, anyway.

I have shared my info and Bridgestone's responses with other forums, including the Iron Butt Association. Even knowing the temperatures and use of my tire, the unanimous opinion is that this should not have happened, and Bridgestone's response is unreasonable (and I'm being gentle compared to many of the posts). I know of one publication that will be running a story with details, but I'm not going to release the name until it comes out. I truly did not expect it to come to this, but I'm taking the advice and wisdom of the masses here.

In the meantime, I'm going to do everything I can to let people know Bridgestone's official position about the temperature ratings of their tires. Many have used them below freezing, myself included before this tire, without damage; and many of us will continue to, possibly myself included. I do want to make it public, however, that Bridgestone won't stand behind any tire problems if the tires were exposed to below-freezing temperatures. I am also concerned that Bridgestone is aware of this happening to other tires.

Yup, definitely disturbing. I looked at the site and it says the same for the Battlax series of tires. I ride all winter in temps well below freezing. This is some scary stuff.

nhdiesel said:

The most I can find in print from Bridgestone is:
"High performance motorcycle tires may crack in the tread area from impact or deformation at low ambient temperatures. Handle and store the tires with care. Always ride carefully until the tires are warmed up, particularly in low ambient temperature conditions."

So...what is "low ambient temperature"? 50 degrees? 32? Zero? -20?

If they can give me an official number, and I find it reasonable

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I'd like to know your definition of "reasonable." I ask this simply because I seriously doubt any tire that would fit the ST would ever even get to normal operating temperature while riding at -20. I have a friend in Nome Alaska with a Ducati 916. He has a very narrow window of time he can ride it over the course of a year. He uses a KTM Adventurer for the colder months and loves it.

ABATOY said:

I'd like to know your definition of "reasonable." I ask this simply because I seriously doubt any tire that would fit the ST would ever even get to normal operating temperature while riding at -20. I have a friend in Nome Alaska with a Ducati 916. He has a very narrow window of time he can ride it over the course of a year. He uses a KTM Adventurer for the colder months and loves it.

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This is why I'm not asking for, or pushing for, a warranty replacement. However Bridgestone's official stance that their tires "should not be exposed to below freezing temperatures" is insane. Many people store their bikes in unheated garages for the winter, and many more see below freezing temperatures with normal use. Where I live, I would have less than a 2 month window to use a Bridgestone.

As I said before...if they had stated -10, or even zero, as their minimum OPERATING temperature, I would consider that reasonable to live by. Even 10 degrees for a USABLE temperature. But freezing...as a minimum EXPOSURE temperature?

This is the point I want to make sure other riders are aware of. Most of us know our tires will work just fine below 32 degrees...but if there IS a problem, Bridgestone won't stand behind them. And since they list 32 as the minimum rating, and they are aware of other Bridgestone tires cracking...at what temperature did they crack? 30? 20?

And why is there no warning on the tires that they are known to fail at low temperatures? Many touring riders see temperatures below 32 degrees. I can name many on here...take a look at the Coldest Ride thread. Read many of the ride reports on the IBA site.

You mention your friend with the 916. That is a performance bike, which most likely has performance tires mounted. I have a touring bike...with a touring tire. I would consider a touring tire to be the "all season" of motorcycle tires- the tire for all occasions.

nhdiesel said:

This is why I'm not asking for, or pushing for, a warranty replacement. However Bridgestone's official stance that their tires "should not be exposed to below freezing temperatures" is insane. Many people store their bikes in unheated garages for the winter, and many more see below freezing temperatures with normal use. Where I live, I would have less than a 2 month window to use a Bridgestone.

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Based on historic data from NOAA, if freezing (32f) was the benchmark for riding in Milan NH, you would have a season that went from April to November. I'm aware that not only do folks store in unheated sheds but they store outside underscover and not on paddock stands as well. When I lived in Kentucky I went through those same conditions in terms of season and relative temperatures. Please correct me if i'm wrong but the Honda ST comes from the manufacturer with Z rated radial tires. If this is true, what is an ST doing with bias ply H rated tires on it? When you ride at 60mph and ambient temperatures of 30f, the bike, rider and tires are being exposed to wind temperatures of 10f and at -20f that drops to -62f; again according to NOAA. This sets up extremes I would seriously doubt any motorcycle tire manufacturer ever thought their street tire products would have been exposed to let alone tested for. Please understand I am not in agreement with the answers coming out of Bridgestone however, they will protect themselves in terms relative to liability issues as would any manufacturer. If in fact you have an official statement from Bridgestone saying their BT45 bias ply tires should not be exposed to ambient temperatures below 32f, I fail to see why this would be insane. Rather, I would want to know why there is no public warning on the side of the tire stating this rather important fact considering riders do use them on the street and store them at temperatures below this mark. Now that's insane because it sets up a public safety issue. Additionally and specific to the ST1300, I would be asking Honda if the BT45 H rated bias ply tire is even adequate for that bike because it falls way short of the OEM tire spec.

I think my position and Bridgestone's would be more clear if you saw the entire conversation. The only thing I edited out of this was my full name and phone number. The original e-mail was sent after a brief conversation with Bridgestone by phone, simply asking what happened to the tire (letting them tell me if it was temperature related). After that I simply wanted to know the rating of their tires. Bridgestone's responses are in bold. As you'll see I only requested a clear answer from Bridgestone as to the rating of their tires. As for my season...not sure which Milan, NH you looked at, but in Mid April we still have snow and ice. We experienced freezing night time temperatures until the beginning of June, and starting in the fall in late August. If you are looking at weather data- it is all recorded at the airport, which is typically about 5 degrees warmer than my house, which is up on a hill. Using Bridgestone's guide, I would need heated storage for my bike for 10 months of the year, could not leave it outside at a motel at night if the temperature was to drop below 32 degrees, etc. I agree, if they want to limit their tires to above 32 degrees, that is their choice- but considering this is a touring tire, there should be a warning stating that their tires are for summer use only, and not to be exposed to below freezing temperatures. Heck, my new tire should be shipped back, as it sat on my porch at 25 degrees all day when it was delivered! Is that extreme and silly? Yes...but that is in line with their wording. E-mails to follow:



Below is the link to an album with several photos of the tire. Both sidewalls have a single center of primary damage with cracks radiating out from them. The points on each sidewall are at different points on the tire. Some of the splits are more than 12" long. The tire was still holding air, so apparently only the outside layer cracked. The cracks are deep, they seem to go to the cords.

The size is 130-70-18. BT45 model. Date code shows it was made March of 2012. It was installed around October of 2012 and has only a couple thousand miles on it.

Link to the photos:
http://s226.photobucket.com/user/nhdiesel/library/ST1300/Bad Tire?page=1

Thank you for your attention to this. This is my 2nd BT45, and I was very happy with the first one. I actually purchased another BT45 to replace this one with.

Jim
Milan, NH
603-xxxxxxx

Hanes, Garfield
Mar 21 (2 days ago)

to me
I forwarded this to our motorcycle rep. You will either hear back from him or me regarding this.

Thank you,

Garfield Hanes
Technical Service Coordinator
Bridgestone Americas Tire Operations
201 Bridgestone Parkway
Lebanon, TN. 37090
Office: (615)-695-5961
Fax: (615)-695-5970
hanesgarfiel@bfusa.com

Hanes, Garfield
Mar 21 (2 days ago)

to me
Jim, the tires have experienced this type of cracking due to being in freezing and below conditions. Unfortunately this condition is not covered under the workmanship and materials warranty.

Garfield Hanes
Technical Service Coordinator
Bridgestone Americas Tire Operations
201 Bridgestone Parkway
Lebanon, TN. 37090
hanesgarfiel@bfusa.com

Jim <@gmail.com>
Mar 21 (2 days ago)

to Garfield
Can you point me to where the minimum rated temperature is? I want to be sure this doesn't happen again. I am now concerned that Bridgestone tires may not be up to the use motorcycles see here in New England. I just purchased a new BT45 but am worried that maybe I should return it.

I appreciate you looking into this.

Jim

Hanes, Garfield
Mar 21 (2 days ago)

to me
I forwarded this back to our motorcycle rep. however in the summer you should be fine, but in the winter time you will most likely run into this issue if the tire is exposed to colder than freezing conditions.

Thank you,

Garfield Hanes
Technical Service Coordinator
Bridgestone Americas Tire Operations
201 Bridgestone Parkway
Lebanon, TN. 37090
Office: (615)-695-5961
Fax: (615)-695-5970
hanesgarfiel@bfusa.com

Jim <@gmail.com>
Mar 21 (2 days ago)

to Garfield
I ride my motorcycle all year. Its a touring bike, and where I live its not uncommon for night time temperatures to be below freezing in June or September. I'm not going to be swapping tires based on where I might be riding, or switching brands based on the time of year. I would like specific numbers so I know whether I'm safe or not. Its a good thing I caught that tire when I did- I had done 100 miles the day before, and was about to depart on a 1000+ mile weekend ride when I noticed the tire during my pre-ride inspection. My trip got cancelled. I want to ensure I don't have that problem again.

Jim

Hanes, Garfield
Mar 22 (1 day ago)

to me
Jim, this is the information I received from out motorcycle rep.

Check out this web sites:

http://www.bridgestone.com/products/motorcycle_tires/products/note/index.html

Thank you,

Garfield Hanes
Technical Service Coordinator
Bridgestone Americas Tire Operations
201 Bridgestone Parkway
Lebanon, TN. 37090
Office: (615)-695-5961
Fax: (615)-695-5970
hanesgarfiel@bfusa.com

Jim <@gmail.com>
Mar 22 (1 day ago)

to Garfield
That still does not give me a temperature. "Low ambient temperature"...that can mean anything. How cold are your tires rated to? I fear I'm going to have to warn all my northern friends that Bridgestones are not designed for our use.

Jim

Hanes, Garfield
Mar 22 (1 day ago)

to me
Anything below freezing is not going to hold up on any high performance tire, whether it is a motorcycle or passenger high performance tire. There is no exact temp. this will happen at. A high performance tire is rated to hold up during extreme high temps. Not extremely low.

Thank you,

Garfield Hanes
Technical Service Coordinator
Bridgestone Americas Tire Operations
201 Bridgestone Parkway
Lebanon, TN. 37090
Office: (615)-695-5961
Fax: (615)-695-5970
hanesgarfiel@bfusa.com

Jim <@gmail.com>
Mar 22 (1 day ago)

to Garfield
Having lived in a cold climate all my life, ridden motorcycles all my life, and worked as a technician most of my life- I've never experienced this before with any other high performance tire, whether for a car or a motorcycle. I'll be returning the replacement Bridgestone I just bought and will be warning my friends and every motorcycle forum I belong to that Bridgestones are not rated for cold weather use.

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

Jim

Based on the responses back to you, Bridgestone is no different than any other motorcycle tire manufacturer in that they do not test for extreme cold and especially under conditions that would not allow the tire to reach normal operating temperatures. The data from NOAA was for the Berlin Airport MARS station at Lat: 44.59 Lon: -71.18, Elevation: 1158ft. In the last 72 hours and relative to that location the lowest temp has been +8f and the highest +36f. The following warning is present on Bridgestone's tire page, "High performance motorcycle tires may crack in the tread area from impact or deformation at low ambient temperatures. Handle and store the tires with care. Always ride carefully until the tires are warmed up, particularly in low ambient temperature conditions." My response to this is simple, what is the highest and lowest temperature the BT45 model tire is tested for? Clearly, the warning is ambiguous. Now, had I been their rep, my first question would be... What's that tire doing on an ST because it doesn't meet manufacturers specifications at all.? For me, I would be dismounting the tire and sending it to the engineering department at Bridgestone with a certified receipt request and asking them what happened.

ABATOY said:

When you ride at 60mph and ambient temperatures of 30f, the bike, rider and tires are being exposed to wind temperatures of 10f and at -20f that drops to -62f; again according to NOAA.

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Your understanding of the wind chill effect is not correct. Look here.

Wind chill (popularly wind chill factor) is the perceived decrease in air temperature felt by the body on exposed skin due to the flow of cold air.

At 20 deg F, it doesn't matter if the wind is zero or if its blowing 100mph, the temperature of the tire is still going to be 20 deg F...

I went so far as to send an e-mail to

Garfield Hanes
Technical Service Coordinator
Bridgestone Americas Tire Operations
201 Bridgestone Parkway
Lebanon, TN. 37090
hanesgarfiel@bfusa.com

Got a call from Bridgestone this morning with all kinds of dodge everything answers till they just got an attitude and terminated the call with out answering my question in the e-mail "Am I Safe" . Looks like BS to me.

So Bridgestone is pretty much denying any knowledge or giving specifics?

I have a internal tire temperature sensor so I can see when the tires are warming up.. but what is their definition of warm? 40..50..60..74.. 80.. what?
Kind of like asking what is cold? Cold for me? Cold for you? Cold for The Dan?

I think i will send an email to Bridgestone and ask? After getting blown off I will let them know my money is going elsewhere.

T_C said:

So Bridgestone is pretty much denying any knowledge or giving specifics?

I have a internal tire temperature sensor so I can see when the tires are warming up.. but what is their definition of warm? 40..50..60..74.. 80.. what?
Kind of like asking what is cold? Cold for me? Cold for you? Cold for The Dan?

I think i will send an email to Bridgestone and ask? After getting blown off I will let them know my money is going elsewhere.

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Be sure and tell them you were blown off and give them the name or ID# for that employee. Be nice and stick to the facts as opposed to dancing around. Be direct and stay away from open ended questions. That would give them an out and you're trying to nail them down. Personally, I wouldn't put a Bridgestone on my grandkids go-cart but lets see where this goes.

I just put a brand new set of BT023's on my bike and it's stored in my unheated garage. It often gets below freezing in there and, according to Bridgestone, those tires are in danger of failing because of temperature extremes. That tells me I'm not buying anymore Bridgestone tires for any motorcycle, ever.

If I were to base my opinion solely on what happened to my tire, I wouldn't hesitate to use Bridgestone again. Well, maybe a small hesitation, which is what I did...then got another BT45. It wasn't until their e-mails stated that they were aware of other failures, and that their tires shouldn't be exposed to below freezing temperatures that I got concerned. Are they overprotecting themselves and erring on the side of caution by giving a warmer temperature? That would have been my guess had they not admitted to knowing about other tires cracking. That begs the question I repeatedly ask myself...at what temperature did those tires crack?

Scooter said:

Your understanding of the wind chill effect is not correct. Look here.

Wind chill (popularly wind chill factor) is the perceived decrease in air temperature felt by the body on exposed skin due to the flow of cold air.

At 20 deg F, it doesn't matter if the wind is zero or if its blowing 100mph, the temperature of the tire is still going to be 20 deg F...

Click to expand...

The chart at the upper right of the wiki site you referenced is accurate, which is from NOAA. It's the same chart I have been using for years and the same principle and effects hold true to temperatures that do effect metal, rubber, plastic and so on. If the tire is just sitting there and that 100mph wind you are talking about hits it for a prolonged period of time you'll see a marked decrease to ambient as long as it remains there. Get a pyrometer and check it out.

As far as the cold temp thing goes. I haven't been reading all the posts in this thread but went back a couple pages to get an understanding of the basics.

Bridgestone's warrant mentioned cold and impacts.

Bridgestone's rep or whoever answered the email said cold exposure.

I agree that this offers two separate stances, so what is accurate?

Here is my speculation on the subject.

My guess is the rep isn't an engineer. The rep didn't consult an engineer and just went with the general cold exposure and probably doesn't know the difference. I doubt Bridgestone is paying their engineers to respond to emails from the general public. The engineers were likely consulted when the warranty was being written. So simple exposure to cold temps. That doesn't make sense that it will damage a tire, at least the temps that you would see here in the lower 48. Not when the tire is static in the case of a MC sitting in storage. That said a tire that is being ridden is not static. As the temps drop the tire will get harder. There is a reason in cage applications that dedicated snow tires are made from soft rubber when compared to a dedicated summer tire which is what a touring tire would likely more closely resemble in rubber compound. As the tire gets harder any impact could break the rubber as noted in the photos. Jim, I have seen the videos of how bad the roads are in your area and we have roads just as bad here. I am lucky in the respect that once the road I live on ices over (Nov-Dec time frame usually) I am no longer tempted to take the bike out. There is no real way of getting down the ice rink style ice that we have on our road all winter short of getting a dual sport with studded tires. Heck, I am still iced in and likely will be for a few more weeks.

I know you were looking for an answer from them. You wanted them to say this tire isn't safe if the temp is below 5*F or some other hard number. Flip the coin, how are they going to be able to predict how deep of a pot hole you are going to hit, how warm the tires are and at what speed you were going at 5*F to be able to say it is or isn't safe. I would image that each one of those bits of information would come into play. Unfortunately I don't see it as something that is cut and dry where they can come out with a hard number saying if you cross this line it isn't safe. Heck even look at Honda. What is the temp that the air temp cuts out. 14F or so I think. Obviously Honda thought no one in their right mind would ride in temps below that so why bother designing a temp gage to read anything lower than that. Sure, I have done it, but only when we happen to get a quick cold snap early in the season before my road ices over.

In the end I think the Rep is someone who's job it is to answer questions. Did he word his response in the best manner, no, I don't think he did. But I also don't think he is trying to imply that storing a tire below freezing is also going to destroy it. Even though that is what he said in what was most likely a poorly worded sentence.

Heck you can have a sentence in which the inclusion or exclusion of a simple comma can drastically change the way the sentence is read and the meaning the reader would imply.

Let’s eat, mommy.
Let’s eat mommy.

If they're not going to warrantee something like yours, which appears to me to be a fairly serious issue, then I will avoid them completely because I believe their warrantee policy is highly arbitrary and certainly not conducive to high levels of confidence in their product because, obviously, they have not much confidence in their own product.

I'm only out to show what Bridgestone used as their official stance. You know, and I know, why my tire cracked. Is it right? Or is it abnormal? I'm not an engineer. I am simply sharing what their official statements were to me, and will let others decide. Knowing what I know, I'll be running another Bridgestone on the front, mainly because I have one here, and I don't have time to research another suitable long lasting replacement at this moment.

I think Sennister is pretty much on the money with regards to the response I got. I still put that in Bridgestone's lap. They do destructive testing on tires and you better believe they know what temperatures work, and don't work, for their tires. Regardless, I'm just sharing their official wording. I haven't gone back through all of my posts, but I don't believe I ever once suggested NOT using Bridgestone; I only mentioned that if you live or ride in a cold area, be aware of their standpoint. Correctly worded or not, that is what I have in writing from them.

That brings back the other topic...since they are aware of other Bridgestone tires with similar cracking, at what temperatures did they crack at? Were they used at the same extreme temperature, and extreme road conditions mine was used at? That is of much more concern to me than what happened to my tire.

One thing I wish there was is a rating on tire to show the hardness of the rubber. We are limited on what tire options we have. In the sport bike field you have more selection and it is well documented that if you want a soft, short life, track tire go with this one and if you want a harder longer wearing tire for commuting you go with that one. I don't know that this is the case with the touring market at least I haven't seen it. Everyone pretty much goes for the longer wear option. The Avon Storms were always a fairly soft tire on the 1100 but I wouldn't put one on a 1300. Not sure how a dual compound would do in your environment (crappy roads in cold temps). That really limits the options...

Jim, I think your best option is to do as you mentioned and keep an eye out for a spare rim. Have one mounted up with the softest tire you can find that will fit for the cold weather riding and run the Bridgestone when it is nice out and you are doing your longer rides eating up the big miles. Or since it looks like your shop is coming together, it wouldn't take much to pull the rubber and swap tires depending on the season. That is what I like about having a tire changer. Not that I change tires per season but I do prefer to scrub tires in the summer and depending on my tire use I might switch rubber to scuff the tire for a few hundred miles and go back to an older tire until needed or toss on a take off for a few hundred miles to try a different tire or extend my window until I need to scrub a new tire.

I am sure you were simply pasting in word for word that they said. I mainly question how qualified the person is that answered your email. You did mention that you were having a hard time in finding what other companies say are acceptable temp ranges as well. That doesn't surprise me one bit. I agree that Bridgestone does do destructive testing, but I don't know how many scenarios they really test against. Besides what is the demand of customers for a tire?

1. Long Life (miles)
2. Wide Temperature Range
3. Good Traction

Now, pick two from the list above because realistically that all that is practical. Odds are if they want to sell a lot of tires they are going to design one that meets #1 and #3. For the average tour rider #2 isn't going to be that much of a factor. Sure there are some of us that push it on days below freezing but the vast majority of our miles this isn't going to be a factor. For me it is the fall when it is below freezing in the mornings. My bike is stored in my heated shop so they don't get below 40. I ride to work while I don't see my tire temp, I usually still see the pressures come up a bit on the TPMS. In the evening on the way home it isn't all that cold. Usually above freezing.

The Dan said:

Looks like BS to me.

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Hey, Dan? That BT45 tire you bought from me had never seen 32?F while it was in my possession.
This disclaimer has been provided in order to hopefully bring a little levity among us during this serious discussion.: