Neck Problems & LD Riding - How do you cope?

Thinking about replacing both of my current bikes with one that allows me to sit as near to vertical as possible due to the development of a bad neck. Right now I can't even make 150 miles on the ST1300 without having to return home (and I already have MCL III risers). I'm currently in physical therapy for the neck but don't see it improving to the point of being able to do extensive traveling on the ST (don't want to have the operation). This problem caused me to miss TexSTOC this year. This hit just as I was getting ready to get back into long distance touring after having been out of the game for several years because of other medical issues.

I went on a motorcycle ergonomic site to see what bikes might work for me. I found two bikes that would fit the bill in that both of these show I'd be sitting at 0 degrees from vertical, or bolt upright:

1. Goldwing GL1800
2. 2005-2009 R1200RT.

The Goldwing ergos are perfect both for my neck and short inseam (I'm 5'8" w/ 30 to 31" inseam) but it's main drawback is that it's huge, heavy, & pretty expensive, even for used ones with plenty of mileage.

The RT is taller than I'd like and I really don't like the meager dealership network throughout the country, an important consideration if I'm going to use the bike for transcontinental traveling. I do however have a line on a well priced, low mileage 2009.

A bike I'd really like to have is the Suzuki DL650a but the newer ones are just too tall. I've sat on the 2007-2011 generation (which have close to 0 degree seating but not quite) & height wise it would work but it's seated ergos are not perfectly straight up & down even though close. It might work with Rox risers or some other type of bar-backs but don't know for sure.

For those of you who have neck problems and have not had the surgery, how have you adapted your rides for LD travel & what bike works best for you?

Mick,
I had a disk fused (C4-5) about 12 years ago, with the anterior titanium plate installed. Spent one night in hospital, back at work in 3 weeks. No neck problems, since. UNTIL, I started back riding 4 years ago. I've come to the conclusion that it's not the riding posture that's causes my neck pain, but the weight of the helmet that I'm having to support with my neck. I went through a couple of cruisers, then a ST1300 (still have), and now have a GL1800. I found that I have no pain while riding the ST or the Wing at a slow pace for several hours at a time, but either bike causes neck pain after an hour on the slab at higher speeds. I'm quite sure the buffeting at higher speeds puts more stress on my neck, causing the pain. So far, I've been able to fight it off by taking Aleve before I start out.

Have you seen the adjustable bars from Helibar? They can go up 4" and back 5". I saw a set on Indypup's ST1300 at OHSToc and they looked pretty slick. They're a little pricy, but well under the cost of a Wing.

https://www.helibars.com/product/honda-st1300-multi-adjustable-handlebars

John

If you do decide to go with an RT, be sure to get it out on a good ride first. I found the riding position on my ST to be easier on my back and Maggie's R1200RT.

Good luck,

John

Nashcat said:

Mick,
I had a disk fused (C4-5) about 12 years ago, with the anterior titanium plate installed. Spent one night in hospital, back at work in 3 weeks. No neck problems, since. UNTIL, I started back riding 4 years ago. I've come to the conclusion that it's not the riding posture that's causes my neck pain, but the weight of the helmet that I'm having to support with my neck. I went through a couple of cruisers, then a ST1300 (still have), and now have a GL1800. I found that I have no pain while riding the ST or the Wing at a slow pace for several hours at a time, but either bike causes neck pain after an hour on the slab at higher speeds. I'm quite sure the buffeting at higher speeds puts more stress on my neck, causing the pain. So far, I've been able to fight it off by taking Aleve before I start out.

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My problem is severe stenosis at the C3/C4 level plus a couple of smaller bone spurs at other levels. Basically arthritis of the neck plus diminished disk thickness. It's going to have to get a heck of a lot worse though before I'll bow to the need for surgery. After three shoulder surgeries over the last several years with mixed results and long recovery periods, I'm not at all prone to hop back into that game.

Kinda bummed to hear that you are still unable to do LD travel without pain even after the fusion operation.

The cruisers you had should have been as near straight up in the saddle as you could get. You may be on to something about the buffeting being the culprit or at least a contributing factor.

What speed range are you referring to when you say that you can ride the ST for several hours at a slow pace?

The kind of traveling I've done in the past has always required high speed runs down the interstate to get to where I want to go. I guess I could make equivalent runs down secondary highways with slower speed limits but you're still talking 55 to 70 mph. Our Texas interstates away from the cities are mostly 75 to 80 mph now.

Have you seen the adjustable bars from Helibar? They can go up 4" and back 5". I saw a set on Indypup's ST1300 at OHSToc and they looked pretty slick. They're a little pricy, but well under the cost of a Wing.

https://www.helibars.com/product/honda-st1300-multi-adjustable-handlebars

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Wow, at $595 they are truly proud of their product. After taking a glance at the installation instructions it looks quite involved to put on but I guess it would be a solution to the vertical ergos.

I'm really sort of leaning toward the DL650 but don't know whether the buffeting that you mention would be worse that the ST.

Somehow I've got to figure out how to continue riding and how to do so in a comfortable manner. There's a solution here somewhere.

My problem is severe stenosis at the C3/C4 level plus a couple of smaller bone spurs at other levels. Basically arthritis of the neck plus diminished disk thickness. It's going to have to get a heck of a lot worse though before I'll bow to the need for surgery. After three shoulder surgeries over the last several years with mixed results and long recovery periods, I'm not at all prone to hop back into that game.

Kinda bummed to hear that you are still unable to do LD travel without pain even after the fusion operation.

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Mick,
I had a deteriorated disk, as well as a bone spur pressing on my spinal cord. The pain wasn't too bad, but I lost the feeling in the last two fingers of my left hand, due to pressure on the nerve in my neck. I went 6 months of drugs and physical therapy with no improvement before the doc said to have surgery. I went in at 6:00AM, and was sitting up, eating lunch at 1:00PM. Home the next morning, with just some local soreness, and the feeling was back in my fingers immediately. With the metal plate and 4 screws, there was no neck brace and no restrictions. Some of the physical therapy hurt as bad as the surgery.

When I said "slow speed riding", I meant 55-60 MPH. The slab speeds around here are usually 80-85, or more, to keep from getting run over. When I'm at that speed, I can feel the helmet bouncing around in the air stream, sometimes to the point of blurring my vision. After a ride at that speed, the neck is sore for a few days. I didn't say I couldn't ride LD, I just said that it hurts. . The wife and I just did a 1200 mile weekend at ArkanSToc, with about half on the slab. Yep, it hurt when I got home, but worth every moan and groan.

I hope you find a solution.

John

You know, it's hard to take a picture of an X-ray. Anyway, here's what my neck looks like with the brace and 4 screws that look like they belong in a sheet of drywall.

Nashcat said:

Mick,
I had a deteriorated disk, as well as a bone spur pressing on my spinal cord. The pain wasn't too bad, but I lost the feeling in the last two fingers of my left hand, due to pressure on the nerve in my neck. I went 6 months of drugs and physical therapy with no improvement before the doc said to have surgery.

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I have basically the same thing. For a while I was having serious charlie horses on one side of my neck every time I got up from a sitting position or tried to turn my head, and my little fingers would get numb when lying down. At one point I had no range of neck motion at all. A five day regimen of steroid pills got rid of the muscle spasms & numbness. The physical therapy is helping with the range of motion and soreness but I've still got a long way to go as things seem to have plateaued.

As an experiment, I made a 300 mile, round trip run down the interstate a couple of days ago on the ST doing 80 to 85 mph and found that I was nowhere near ready to do any high speed, distance riding. It was a stretch going as far as I did and my neck let me know about it loud & clear. I'm going to stay away from rides for a week or two and see if things get any better. On my next trial run I'll try your suggestion of 55 to 60 mph back roads. They're more fun anyway.

I went in at 6:00AM, and was sitting up, eating lunch at 1:00PM. Home the next morning, with just some local soreness, and the feeling was back in my fingers immediately. With the metal plate and 4 screws, there was no neck brace and no restrictions. Some of the physical therapy hurt as bad as the surgery.

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Glad to hear it worked out OK for you and that the doctor fixed you up before any permanent nerve damage! :bow1:

When I said "slow speed riding", I meant 55-60 MPH.

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Will the ST do 55? . I know my Bandit wouldn't like doing that speed.

Thanks for the info John.

I had a pinched nerve at the C5 vertebra. The initial symptom was a spasm in the left scapula region. I missed 5 weeks of work as I could only stand or lie down - I couldn't sit. The physical therapist working on me actually found the pinched nerve. He noticed that area of my neck was stiff and inflexible. Then the doctor injected the area with a steroid/pain killer which killed off the problem and I was back to work in a couple more days. The physical therapist subsequently became my friend and has worked on my neck flexibility a couple other times early in the process and that has been enough. He also taught me a stretch which I only remember to do when my neck hurts. I just did a ride from West Yellowstone, MT to Gerlach, NV - 2 days there and 1 day back (750 miles). No neck problems and before the treatments, that ride would have caused the pain and plucked guitar string sensation I had before. My ST1300 has bar risers and I'm pretty upright. Works for me but I realize no two problems are exactly the same.

If you do have to get a different bike, I wouldn't let the seat height of a Vstrom prevent you from getting that bike. I'm 5'8" with a 30" inseam and have a KTM950SE which has a 37" seat height. I've adapted my riding and mostly do fine.

With age (72) we all have our aches and pains for riding, most younger people do too. We are riding in a basically locked position with a helmet, that adds weight to our neck and shoulders. After2-3-4 hours it can compress neck, back, arms and hips areas and one starts to get twinges and tingles that leads into discomfort and then pain. I have rode 700+ miles in day, like 14 hours. When I got off the bike I was ready for a massage and hot tub. I am like most older riders, I will spend time and money to "Tweak" everything on the bike to make the riding position comfortable and doable. I had thought about a Wing for more comfort. I should rent one for a couple days and see what I think. George and MotoMac are the ones that can ride forever. Dave B. Denver

jonz said:

I had a pinched nerve at the C5 vertebra. The initial symptom was a spasm in the left scapula region. I missed 5 weeks of work as I could only stand or lie down - I couldn't sit.

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About 3 years ago I started getting occasional pain that would last a day or two, apparently from muscle spasms underneath the left scapula. It would only happen when I would get in certain positions at my work desk. At the time I blamed it on bad left shoulder surgery. My ortho doc at the time didn't know what was causing it and didn't seem particularly interested in pursuing it. Now that I know I have neck problems, it all makes sense. It was just the opening salvo of my cervical spine going bonkers.

I just did a ride from West Yellowstone, MT to Gerlach, NV - 2 days there and 1 day back (750 miles). No neck problems and before the treatments, that ride would have caused the pain and plucked guitar string sensation I had before. My ST1300 has bar risers and I'm pretty upright. Works for me but I realize no two problems are exactly the same.

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This sounds encouraging. Your experience gives me hope that I can get back to the LD game, even though my daily mileage will have to be curtailed. No more 900 mile days. Probably more like 400 at most.

Unless some irresistible deal on a 2007 to 2011 DL650a pops up, I plan to keep my bikes until late winter/early spring before making a decision to sell or not. I want to give this physical therapy a chance to see if exercise can manage the problem.

[QUOTE;1675362]The biggest improvement for riding was get a lighter helmet. I went with the HJC RPHA-10 and the lighter weight with snell approval made a big difference. I had always worn SHOIE before <SNIP> I would suggest trying one of these new lighter helmets, [/QUOTE]

That's interesting. I wear a Shoei RF1100 and thought it was pretty light. Other than the HJC you mention, what are some of the lighter brands?

I hope you find a bike that fits you well so you can continue enjoying the dream....

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Thanks. I'm determined to find a way.

Sorry to hear about your neck problems Mick,I hope you get it sorted soon,that ergonomics site is very good,
the crosstourer,new v strom 1000 and the vstrom 650's are perfect for me going by that at 6'1" and 32" inseam.

Mick said:

This sounds encouraging. Your experience gives me hope that I can get back to the LD game, even though my daily mileage will have to be curtailed. No more 900 mile days. Probably more like 400 at most.

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One thing my physical therapist buddy explained to me was besides muscle flexibility, there is nerve flexibility. As I recall the explanation, the nerves run inside a sheath and can/should slide within that sheath. At pinched or damaged locations, the nerves can be pulled by the pinch or adhesions to the sheath. That pull can cause the nerve to fire - in my case causing muscle spasms. Between the physical therapy and stretching, the adhesions can be broken and heal without readhering (sp?). The stretch that works for me involves sitting on the ground with my legs in front as you would to stretch your hamstrings and then touching my chin to my chest about 10 times. I can feel it all the way down my spine. Works for me but obviously everyone is different and you should run it by your physical therapist if you're not already doing it.

Mick, I had the same symptoms that many others have: Numbness, neck pain, pain down my left arm, etc. Before the surgery to clean up the bone spurs in 2011 I was in enough pain that I had almost quit riding and was uncomfortable most of the time. Post surgery I still have a little numbness in two fingers but no pain unless I agravate it by riding too long in a day or when there is a lot of buffetting, ie. interstate around lots of trucks. I managed to do 16000 miles on the ST last year including an 8000 mi. trip to Nova Scotia by limiting the riding days to 6-7 hours and not more than two hours at a stretch.

Equipment wise I have bar risers and a very light helmet - the Akuma Phantom carbon fiber at less than 1400 grams. Check out the weights of various helmets here: http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcycle-helmets/motorcycle-helmet-weights.htm . The light weight and aerodynamics of a good helmet make a lot of difference IMHO.

Another thing I used with some success is a collar to help support the weight of my helmet. I started by wrapping a towel around my neck so it was thick enough to lift the helmet a hair. When I determined that this helped I eventually made a custom foam collar with a bladder inside that I can pump up to vary the "lift".

Also, when I am riding I take Aleve proactively before I have any symptoms. This helps me stay ahead of the pain curve.

My biggest suggestion is to not put off the surgery. I was in the hospital overnight and had immediate relief and was back at work in a few days. Before the surgery I had the steroid shots and/or a course of oral steroids about once a year with varying degrees of effectiveness.

Best of luck with whatever you decide on.

Harry

Dirty Harry said:

Post surgery I still have a little numbness in two fingers but no pain unless I agravate it by riding too long in a day or when there is a lot of buffetting, ie. interstate around lots of trucks. I managed to do 16000 miles on the ST last year including an 8000 mi. trip to Nova Scotia by limiting the riding days to 6-7 hours and not more than two hours at a stretch.

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Reduced speed and ride time seems to be a common theme.

Equipment wise I have bar risers and a very light helmet - the Akuma Phantom carbon fiber at less than 1400 grams. Check out the weights of various helmets here: http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcycle-helmets/motorcycle-helmet-weights.htm . The light weight and aerodynamics of a good helmet make a lot of difference IMHO.

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Helmet weight also seems to be a common theme. Looks like the Akuma helmet is on its way out as the Revzilla site states it is no longer carried. I was able to find it advertised at Motobuys . The Akuma site says 3 lbs for this helmet. That's about 1/2 what my Shoei RF1100 weighs! It's not a cheap helmet but if it will allow me to ride, it would be worth it.

Another thing I used with some success is a collar to help support the weight of my helmet. I started by wrapping a towel around my neck so it was thick enough to lift the helmet a hair. When I determined that this helped I eventually made a custom foam collar with a bladder inside that I can pump up to vary the "lift".

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Did this device restrict your range of neck motion?

My biggest suggestion is to not put off the surgery. I was in the hospital overnight and had immediate relief and was back at work in a few days. Before the surgery I had the steroid shots and/or a course of oral steroids about once a year with varying degrees of effectiveness.

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How long was it before you could ride after your surgery?

My doc doesn't want to do surgery yet and its something I agree with at this point. I've yet to have an operation that didn't have some sort of long lasting or permanent complication afterward so I'm a sort of cautious about making surgery my 1st option. I'll certainly do it if therapy & drugs don't work.

Thanks for the info Harry.

I have found that I get neck pain from Windscreen back pressure pulling my head toward the front....I have modified and purchased three different windscreens and reduced the problem to a non issue. I was getting really sore in the back of the neck and would ride with the screen down to help relieve the muscles with wind force, that was too noisy for me to enjoy the bike so I started working on a solution. I ended up with the stock screen with a bottom cut like a V-Stream to allow more air behind the screen (the results were amazing). I still run the V-stream in poor weather but the neck pain comes back a little.

Respectfully,
Mark

fnmag said:

I'd also luv an RT. But, like you, dealer network, $, and number of mechanical problems I've heard stop me.
Best of luck with your search.

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Looked at a 2009 R1200RT with just 7500 miles on it over the weekend at a very good price. Seemed to be in good shape and the ergos were wonderful. Everything was looking great until I looked at the bottom of the final drive assembly where I saw possible evidence of a very low rate, oil weep. The RT forums are full of complaints about final drive oil seal failures. Many are seriously angry about it after paying so much for their bikes. Think I'll pass. Too bad because I really liked it other wise.

Some on this board have complained about the boxer engine. The tractor like sound of the motor didn't really bother me at all as it goes along with the territory of a completely different engine. One of the things I've read about that engine is how easy it is to work on. From what I've read, valve checks are a snap to do. That in itself would be reason to get the bike, all other things being equal.

I'm in a situation similar to yours, except mine is the result of an bad airborne jump and some Vietnam stuff - my best results have been
with acupuncture, and since we both live in the Houston area, we have access to some fantastic acupuncturists. If you want to pursue
this off-site, contact me at mcgwhizz@yahoo.com. Mellow Mark

The second generation Helibars on my ST1100 have me straight up. If I had highway pegs, I could ride Barcolounger style leaning against my Biker's Friend back rest.

Mick said:

Reduced speed and ride time seems to be a common theme.





Helmet weight also seems to be a common theme. Looks like the Akuma helmet is on its way out as the Revzilla site states it is no longer carried. I was able to find it advertised at Motobuys . The Akuma site says 3 lbs for this helmet. That's about 1/2 what my Shoei RF1100 weighs! It's not a cheap helmet but if it will allow me to ride, it would be worth it.




Did this device restrict your range of neck motion?




How long was it before you could ride after your surgery?

My doc doesn't want to do surgery yet and its something I agree with at this point. I've yet to have an operation that didn't have some sort of long lasting or permanent complication afterward so I'm a sort of cautious about making surgery my 1st option. I'll certainly do it if therapy & drugs don't work.

Thanks for the info Harry.

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Except for the really light weight the Akuma wouldn't be my first choice as the interior fabric isn't as plush as some. Mine does however have a SOLFX face shield which darkens in sunlight like Transitions eyeglasses. I like that feature a lot.

The neck collar does restrict your ability to turn your head a bit. Try the rolled up towel trick first. The foam collar is less restrictive because its covered with a Lycra sleeve thats kind of slippery.

I didn't ride for about a month after the surgery but that was because of the weather. I think I could have easily ridden in a week. I had surgery when prescription NSAIDS and steroids wern't getting the job done. Also, the bone spur surgery which I had is considerably less invasive as it goes in through the back whereas a fusion or disc replacement goes in from the front. It worked great in my case but I'm sure that if I have to have another one at some point it will be a fusion.

Harry

Mick,

I just got a K-1600 GTL and you sit bolt upright with no shoulder or neck stress at all. When I get back on the ST with RDL, Bar risers I feel like I am leaned over on a Sport Bike now. Also, GoldWing actually feels lighter than the ST due to its weight being so low in the frame. I almost flipped one over when I used my usual force ST level of force to get Al's up off its sidestand.


Last, Have you thought of a racing collar like these? http://motorcycle.motorcycle-superstore.com/motorcycle/Neck%20Collar

Hope you can find the perfect combination.

Chris