rear brake problem

Omaha_LA · Apr 20, 2014

Just got done rebuilding rear caliper. When putting it all back together and after filling the line with new fluid, I cannot get the foot pedal to build up pressure to do the bleeding process. I also flushed a reservoir full of fluid through the line before trying to bleed the line. Any suggestions?
Thanks in advance for any help.

Larry

Omaha_LA · Apr 20, 2014

jfheath said:
It takes a long time to get all of the air through just by pumping the pedal, and only a small amount of air makes a lot of difference.

One problem with pumping the pedal is that when you release the pedal, the air bubbles get sucked back in. If you don't have a non return valve or a vacuum pump, then you need to press the pedal, open the bleed valve, watch the bubbles come out, close the valve, release the pedal. Repeat this ad nauseum remembering to keep the reservoir topped up. If the system sucks air from an empty reservoir, you have to start all over again.

The air will only be able to come out at the bleed valve if the fluid is flowing in that direction. If the fluid isn't flowing, then the air can still go back through the brake lines. So closing the bleed valve, pressing the pedal and opening the valve needs to be done without undue delay - simply to keep the fluid flowing towards the valve. It helps to have a closed ring spanner on the bleed valve, so that you don't have to reposition it every time.
You have got pads in, haven't you? You aren't just pushing the pistons out as you pump the pedal ?

Yes, pads are installed. I was just expecting the pedal to at least get a little firmness to it. Guess not.
I will get back to the project in an hour or so. Kinda busy right now.
Thanks for responding so quickly.

Bush · Apr 20, 2014

Purchase two sets of Speedbleeders (2 to a pack) and replace the brake and clutch bleeder screws with them. Makes the job so much easier. Open the valve slightly (1/4 to 1/2 turn only) and leave it like that as you bleed the line. A one way check valve in the Speedbleeder valve stops air from re-entering when the pedal/lever is released.

Save any messy spills by putting a length of clear aquarium airline hose over the valve nipple and put the other end in a glass jar with a hole punched in the lid, just big enough to hold the hose in the jar. You can easily see, in the clear tubing, when the new brake fluid has fully flushed out the old.

Doodaa · Apr 20, 2014

Bush said:
Purchase two sets of Speedbleeders (2 to a pack) and replace the brake and clutch bleeder screws with them. Makes the job so much easier. Open the valve slightly (1/4 to 1/2 turn only) and leave it like that as you bleed the line. A one way check valve in the Speedbleeder valve stops air from re-entering when the pedal/lever is released.

Save any messy spills by putting a length of clear aquarium airline hose over the valve nipple and put the other end in a glass jar with a hole punched in the lid, just big enough to hold the hose in the jar. You can easily see, in the clear tubing, when the new brake fluid has fully flushed out the old.

Got a place to get 'em to fit the 1100 ?

Uncle Phil · Apr 20, 2014

Another solution to installed Speedbleeders is one that is 'in line' in a section of hose that fits over the bleeding nipple tightly. Put the other end of the hose in a jar and you can bleed your brakes by yourself. I've used this on my ST1100s and automobiles as well. A lot cheaper and can be 'moved' from vehicle to vehicle.

Bush · Apr 20, 2014

Doodaa said:
Got a place to get 'em to fit the 1100 ?

Can't say I know where now. I simply asked the guy at the Honda parts counter and he looked it up in a catalogue, got the right size ordered for me - and that was 19 years ago.

But then, there is this web site I just found.

http://www.speedbleeder.com

vinny · Apr 21, 2014

The site does not list the ST1100, only the ST1300. SB825L or LL seems to be the popular size for the Honda's. Could be the only difference is the hex size. Some are 10mm, and some 8 mm. A phone call could clear that up.

afrymoyer · Apr 21, 2014

Speed bleeders not needed....The entire system was empty. Brake master is air bound. Need to "bench" bleed the master. Bleed out the master by bleeding at the banjo bolt just under the master. Push down the brake pedal and hold in the down position. Loosen the banjo bolt and let out the air, then tighten. Release pedal. Repeat, repeat, repeat, until all air is out of the master. Going to take awhile. Stuff rags under the master so fluid doesn't get on the mufflers and ruin the finish....

Once the master is bled out, then bleed out the rear brake hose at the caliper banjo bolt, using the same procedure as the master. Then finish bleeding the system at the bleeder screw on the caliper. The rear brake system can be really tough to get bled out. Especially after the entire system was "dry".... Good luck!

Also the posibility that after the flush, all the junk got knocked loose in the master and may need to be rebuilt...

Igofar · Apr 21, 2014

A quicker method would be to take a small 2oz syringe from the pet store, and inject the fluid into the bleeders until it fills up the master cylinder unit, then do a normal bleed afterwards, don't forget to strap your levers over for a few hours afterward to get all the air bubbles out that you don't see.
Igofar

Omaha_LA · Apr 21, 2014

Some excellent advice here guys. Thanks for all your input.

Larry

Omaha_LA · Apr 21, 2014

Bush said:
Purchase two sets of Speedbleeders (2 to a pack) and replace the brake and clutch bleeder screws with them. Makes the job so much easier. Open the valve slightly (1/4 to 1/2 turn only) and leave it like that as you bleed the line. A one way check valve in the Speedbleeder valve stops air from re-entering when the pedal/lever is released.

Save any messy spills by putting a length of clear aquarium airline hose over the valve nipple and put the other end in a glass jar with a hole punched in the lid, just big enough to hold the hose in the jar. You can easily see, in the clear tubing, when the new brake fluid has fully flushed out the old.

Excellent!! Just ordered them and this should help a lot. Of course I'll have to wait a couple of days for them to arrive but it should be well worth the wait.
Thanks again.

Larry

Brant · Apr 21, 2014

Have heard of not so good results from speed bleeders. The issue being in some cases is unless you remove and teflon tape the bleeder threads, air gets sucked back in past threads with bleeder loose

.

DeanR · Apr 21, 2014

Motion Pro bleeder per Mr Igofar. A portable speed bleeder for all your bleeding needs.

Bush · Apr 21, 2014

Brant said:
Have heard of not so good results from speed bleeders. The issue being in some cases is unless you remove and teflon tape the bleeder threads, air gets sucked back in past threads with bleeder loose.

I believe problems encountered by those using Speedbleeders is the result of opening it up way more than is needed. If opened more than a full turn, air can be sucked in past the threads of the bleeder valve, defeating the one way valve inside. That is why I said to open it only a 1/4 to 1/2 a turn. The Speedbleeders do come with a coating of some sort (looks like red loctite) on the threads to help prevent air from sucking past them. My experience with them has been entirely positive.

Omaha_LA · Apr 22, 2014

Brant said:
Have heard of not so good results from speed bleeders. The issue being in some cases is unless you remove and teflon tape the bleeder threads, air gets sucked back in past threads with bleeder loose.

The instructions for the speedbleeder says to only open the bleeder 1/4turn.

Omaha_LA · Apr 22, 2014

afrymoyer said:
Speed bleeders not needed....The entire system was empty. Brake master is air bound. Need to "bench" bleed the master. Bleed out the master by bleeding at the banjo bolt just under the master. Push down the brake pedal and hold in the down position. Loosen the banjo bolt and let out the air, then tighten. Release pedal. Repeat, repeat, repeat, until all air is out of the master. Going to take awhile. Stuff rags under the master so fluid doesn't get on the mufflers and ruin the finish....

Once the master is bled out, then bleed out the rear brake hose at the caliper banjo bolt, using the same procedure as the master. Then finish bleeding the system at the bleeder screw on the caliper. The rear brake system can be really tough to get bled out. Especially after the entire system was "dry".... Good luck!

Also the posibility that after the flush, all the junk got knocked loose in the master and may need to be rebuilt...

Not real sure I understand what you are saying. If you bleed the master at the banjo bolt, aren't you just expelling the fluid? How do you tell how much air you are removing?
Sorry, but I just don't see it happening without a bleed valve and the master has no bleeder valve.

Please, enlighten me.

Larry

sterjll · Apr 22, 2014

Don't know if this is too late, I did mine by pumping the peddle several times real fast, then while holding the peddle down on the last stroke I open the bleeder. Repeated a few times and the air was out. This was on a '91 without any linked or ABS brakes.

Bush · Apr 22, 2014

sterjll said:
Don't know if this is too late, I did mine by pumping the peddle several times real fast, then while holding the peddle down on the last stroke I open the bleeder. Repeated a few times and the air was out. This was on a '91 without any linked or ABS brakes.

That can work even better with the Speedbleeders because each rapid pump will expel fluid and air and doesn't give the air bubbles time to float back upwards in the line. Just be sure to watch you don't drain the master cylinder with the rapid pumping.

afrymoyer · Apr 23, 2014

Omaha_LA said:
Not real sure I understand what you are saying. If you bleed the master at the banjo bolt, aren't you just expelling the fluid? How do you tell how much air you are removing?
Sorry, but I just don't see it happening without a bleed valve and the master has no bleeder valve.

Please, enlighten me.

Larry

I hope that you get it bled out using the traditional bleed methods. If syringe's, speed bleeders, motion pro's, fast pedal pumps and mity-vac's don't work. Then the master is air bound and/or air pockets in the banjo bolts. The procedure I gave you only takes around a half hour to do and no special tools. The entire system WILL be bled out, no questions....I'm just trying to get you back on the road quickly and saving you from purchasing needless crap...

From time-to-time, over the years, someone puts up a post that they can't get a clutch or brake system to bleed out. No matter what they do, it just won't go.... This is the only way to truly get air out of the master and other little sneaky spots that air hides in.

Again... If this doesn't work and you still have a mushy pedal, debris got knocked loose while flushing out the system wiping out the master seals. A rebuild may be in order.

When rebuilding the rear caliper did you use OEM Honda seals? Did you put on new disk pads?

Omaha_LA · Apr 24, 2014

afrymoyer said:
I hope that you get it bled out using the traditional bleed methods. If syringe's, speed bleeders, motion pro's, fast pedal pumps and mity-vac's don't work. Then the master is air bound and/or air pockets in the banjo bolts. The procedure I gave you only takes around a half hour to do and no special tools. The entire system WILL be bled out, no questions....I'm just trying to get you back on the road quickly and saving you from purchasing needless crap...

When rebuilding the rear caliper did you use OEM Honda seals? Did you put on new disk pads?

Yes to the use of OEM seals. I bought new pads as well but I did not put them in as this was just done 3,000 miles back.

Thanks,

Larry