Knock Knock!

Not really sure where to post this but suspect clutch bearing, so here goes.

Bike is 2005 Pan European or ST1300 outside Europe
27,000 Miles on the clock
Full service history.

I've only had the bike for a couple of weeks and it's still under warranty. During my first proper ride out, I heard a knocking sound whilst pulling away from stopped. I could also feel this through the bars.
Same happens feathering the clutch in second gear negotiating town/city traffic. It is most noticeable at low rpm, though I must stress the engine isn't labouring. It is also evident at tick over in neutral though to a lesser degree. Even disengaging the clutch doesn't completely eliminate it. Now I am aware of it I am somewhat "locked in" and can feel it pretty much all the time. I have posted this on the UK owners site and many helpful people have suggested starter valves and/or balance shaft adjustment. Cant help feeling it's more on the drive train though. Needless to say the dealer can find nothing wrong. I should say I am new to bikes at age 53 so my opinion is irrelevant. I have however been driving for 35 years and am quite familiar with engines. This doesn't feel right.
Please help. It's driving me mad
:banghead:

Paul

Time to summon the Igofar. There are a number of moving parts near the front of this engine that can cause knocking noises that would not necessarily be a death rattle. I hear noises in idle and low speed from the clutch basket. Miss-adjusted balancers and timing chains can cause similar noises. Summon the Igofar for advice before you dig in. You will save time money and worry. His experience with such matters is unparalleled.

Just throwing this out there. Could this possibly be coming from the rear wheel or driveshaft. Put you bike on the center stand and rotate the rear tire. Can you hear a knocking sound.
1. Drive shaft yoke. Very,very rare but has happened and gives a knocking sound. See post on this site.
2. Rear wheel bearings. Possible at 27,000 miles you will feel it. Back up the bike with the engine off and listen to the rear wheel. Put the bike on the center stand and rotate the tire and listen to the rear axle.
3. Improper installation of rear tire and lack of lube on spline at wheel.

I do know of many bikes exhibiting knocking noises from the engine. Maybe someone else has had this problem and will chime in.

Sorry 'bout the late entrance...was cleaning brake fluid off my hands.
There could be several things that can cause noise such as clutch basket, cb adjustent, bad fuel, driveshaft and bearing issues etc. We will have to know a little more about the symptoms. My personal ST1300A was making a sound that sounded like bearing knock, that I could feel in the grips etc. Everyone that heard it gave me the roll your eyes...all hondas have clutch noise, its normal....etc. I was having a small sign of leakage out the waterpump mechanical seal so I replaced the water pump. Parts ran about $75 dollars and I did the install myself. Knock completely went away.
Give us some more info and we will try to assist you.
Igofar-the STWhisperer.

Thank you all for your replies. I will try your suggestions when I get home from work. In the meantime if anyone is bored and would like to try a test on their own machine this is how I replicate the fault whilst stationary.

Bike in 1st gear, at tick over, approx. 1100rpm
Apply back brake.
Slowly slip clutch against the brake.
As the revs die back to about 1000rpm and the engine loads up a distinct knocking occurs. Can hear it plainly and feel it through the bars. I should stress that I am not really labouring the engine. Just holding biting point.
I don't normally do this, I just found through experimentation that this reproduces the symptom of this fault.
As I said, now that I am aware of it I can feel it pretty much constantly. Even at tick over in neutral.

Paul

Predetonation causing Piston Slap ? My new '08 BMW R1200RT developed that at only < 6K miles.

I'm not a mechanical engineer, so I can't speak with authority, but it would seem to me that the method you used to duplicate the 'mystery knock' pretty much eliminates everything in the drive train beyond the clutch. I would be looking at the counterbalancer adjustment as well as checking for a coolant leak at the water pump in case your problem is the same as igofar had. Another thing you might want to try that is easy to do is flush and bleed the hydraulic clutch circuit.

Just to eliminate the u-joint as an issue.. put it on the centerstand and in neutral... engine OFF.. and turn the rear wheel to see if you feel/hear anything unusual. You will have some scraping coming from the brake pads and rotar but other than that it should be fairly smooth...

Thanks Chaps. I have had the bike on centre stand this evening. rotating the wheel I can indeed hear the brake pads scraping slightly against the discs. If I rotate the wheel slightly about its axis, just a few inches I hear and feel a click. As though some free play is being taken up before meeting some slight resistance. Should add, machine in neutral.

Another first for me. I have uploaded a video of my somewhat unorthodox method of replicating the knock.
Link here;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIXpxauwnrA

I hope

Will try this again tomorrow with assistance. Haven't quite caught it in all its glory. Maybe enough for someone though.

Paul Sephton said:

Thanks Chaps. I have had the bike on centre stand this evening. rotating the wheel I can indeed hear the brake pads scraping slightly against the discs. If I rotate the wheel slightly about its axis, just a few inches I hear and feel a click. As though some free play is being taken up before meeting some slight resistance. Should add, machine in neutral.

Another first for me. I have uploaded a video of my somewhat unorthodox method of replicating the knock.
Link here;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIXpxauwnrA

I hope

Click to expand...

it would be normal to have some free play when moving the rear wheel back and forth but not a "catch" or over-center action, but moving it back and forth some 1.5 to 2.5 inches there is a click or tap as the free play of the drive shaft U joint and splines take up. Unfortunately I cannot hear anything untoward in the video. Doesn't mean you cannot just that I can't.

Thank you. Yes I think it was free play in the joint. Regarding the video, yes I can hear it but then again I would. Also you can feel it more than hear it, and the feel enforces the hear. I was struggling to be honest on my own. Balancing the bike, applying the brake and slipping the clutch. holding the phone. I really needed just a touch of throttle as the tick over was slightly lower than normal, but I ran out of hands.
Ah well, I will post again tomorrow. Tbh I'm not even sure this test is valid as an indicator of a fault. What I can say is that it sounds and feels exactly the same as the issue I get whilst riding.
But not applying the brake... obvs.

With all due respect to others posting their opinions/suggestions, I'm going to have to stick with my original prognosis (until proven wrong). Since you duplicated the 'knocking sound' with the rear brake applied, nothing in the drive train beyond the clutch could be responsible for the noise as nothing was rotating. Knocking noise must be coming from something in the engine or the clutch basket.

You ARE lugging the engine. I think you will find that every ST1300 will produce knocking sounds, when held at 1k rpm, foot on the brake, then start letting the clutch out.
I bet if you bring the rpm up to about 3k, then apply the brake, then start releasing the clutch, you won't hear any knocking. .02
These bikes like to be shifted and run between 3k and 5k rpm.
I think all you are hearing is the motor and clutch laboring at very low rpm, I got mine, and two other bikes to do the same thing last night at tick over idle.

Igofar said:

You ARE lugging the engine. I think you will find that every ST1300 will produce knocking sounds, when held at 1k rpm, foot on the brake, then start letting the clutch out.
I bet if you bring the rpm up to about 3k, then apply the brake, then start releasing the clutch, you won't hear any knocking. .02
These bikes like to be shifted and run between 3k and 5k rpm.
I think all you are hearing is the motor and clutch laboring at very low rpm, I got mine, and two other bikes to do the same thing last night at tick over idle.

Click to expand...

I agree with Larry. I replicated your video and I could get my bike, although a high mileage bike, to make a sort of juddering knocking or bumping that I felt more than heard. The engine was just short of stalling and I would not normally be putting that kind of load on the clutch and transmission in normal operation. Try using a little more rpm when starting in first and sometimes the clutch needs a little slip at low rpms in second gear when throttle is opened to accelerate (only if lugging in second gear).

For what it is worth my bike started making the "normal, they all do it" clutch basket rattle between 20 and 30,000 miles. This is a low knocking or rumbling noise heard at idle in neutral with the clutch lever out. It never got any worse during the next 100,000+ miles.

My bike started making the normal clutch rattle around 40k, when I tore it down to replace the water pump I had close to 60k on it. I inspected the plates and basket and they all looked good so I left them alone. The rattle that goes away when the clutch is pulled in is normal, the knocking you feel in the grips should go away when rpms are raised and ridden in correct rpm zone.....it ain't no harley or moto guzzi lol.

Thank you all for your replies.
For clarity I should say I don't normally load the engine up against the brake at 1000rpm. In fact I never load the engine against the brake. This is purely trying to replicate the sound of the knock. And it feels the same to me as well. And yes it did "lug" a bit. Tbh I like the bike that much, I try to "ride around it". I can't. Its there.
This happens every time I feather the clutch. Any revs. As it loads up, it knocks. Don't think its the engine, more clutch or gearbox.

cheers
Paul

Would there be any Pan owners near you that you could get a first hand comparison with?

Thanks Chuck. As it happens a guy from the UK forum contacted me. He is only 30 miles or so away so I will arrange a meet up with him in the very near future.
Just for reference I paid almost ?7000 for this machine. Far too much to put up with a knock of any description imo.

Cheers

Why don't we start eliminating stuff, rather than debating what it might be?
First thing I would do is to flush and bleed the clutch fluid with new DOT 4 fluid. Then do an oil change, with some quality heavy duty engine oil 10w-30 or 15w-40, this should clean everything up in that area.
Then I would wait until the bike is stone cold, and adjust the counter balancer adjusters, by loosening the lock bolts, turning in the correct direction until they lightly seat, then go back one graduation (line), then tighten the lock bolts again.
By doing these three things, you will start to be able to cross stuff off your list of what it may be.
Could be the CB out of adjustment (this would cause a knock as you take off), could be degraded clutch fluid, causing issues with the plates, or nasty old oil, or possibly the wrong grade or type of motor oil, etc.
Lets start trying things, before you get frustrated.
Igofar

I should say chaps, I've owned the bike for three weeks. She's under warranty so I am not prepared to touch her yet. May invalidate my warranty.
I do value your comments though, for possible future reference.
I tried again with video. For those of you old enough to remember gas kettles, the knock I hear and feel is lower in both pitch and period than the kettle you can hear throughout.
The knock I hear is most evident about 36 seconds or so, as the camera passes over the right hand cylinder head cover. Yep, I do lug her a bit but nevertheless.
Please tell me this is normal.
If it is, she's up for sale... anyone



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlYjIrDc-3U&feature=youtu.be