Where oh where did my Moly go to, where oh ...

For those folks who want to keep O-rings in stock at a much better price than Honda offers...
www.carolinabikeandtrike.com, they sell a Valkyrie final drive O-ring 5 pack #VFD-5 CB&T for $12.99
This kit works on the Valkyrie's and ST1300's, and gives you 5 of each O-ring in the set.

caldercay said:

Hi Don ...
I guess it's time to purchase a scale and measure out 5g of paste, by weight, and apply that. I suspect it'll be much less than I apply by sight.

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I really don't think it would be worth the time & effort to purchase a scale and measure exactly 5g of moly, but as Mick learned when he Googled the conversion, it's equal to a teaspoon of product. One or two fair-sized globs of moly on the forefinger should be an adequate amount to get a film of lube on all the mating surfaces.

Igofar said:

If you contact Belray lubricants and ask them which one of their products with work for our application on the splines on these bikes, they will point you to one of their "assembly lubes" with moly solids. I've been using it for years now, and it not only holds up better, is more waterproof than the hold stuff, cheaper to purchase ( a large bottle with a brush is about $10 bucks ) but it is always still in place about 10K miles later when I remove the rear wheel for replacement.
As stated by other members, use the correct, recommended amount, clean and inspect everything before applying, and replace all the O-rings each time the wheel is off.
.02

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+1----I would like to also mention most o-rings have a shelf life, if you have a (never used) o-ring sitting on your shelf for several years the composition of the rubber compound has hardened and will fail upon installation.

Igofar said:

If you contact Belray lubricants and ask them which one of their products with work for our application on the splines on these bikes, they will point you to one of their "assembly lubes" with moly solids. I've been using it for years now,

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Larry, is THIS the Belray assembly lube that you use? The Belray specs don't indicate the % of moly. Honda is pretty specific about the lower limit of moly in the "Symbols" section at the front of the service manual. It says "Use molybdenum disulfide paste (containing more than 40% molybdenum disulfide, NLGI #2 or equivalent)".

Don B said:

I noticed a couple of references in this thread to applying the moly paste liberally...

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I've to agree on this, too much isn't good either...
I use a small brush (with firm bristles) to force the Moly-60 deep into the gearing (splines and ring-gear), but leave the O-rings pretty much alone.
When installing new O-rings, I wipe some silicone grease on them (eases installation and assembly of the parts), when I find them kinda "dry" during removal/installation of the wheel, I give them a light smear with marine grease (to ease assembly/avoid clamping)

But besides failing O-rings (which don't look so bad in the pictures): could excessive temperatures/heat be a factor?
Are the wheel bearings in order? Is the oil in the final drive OK? Are the clearances of bevel- and ring-gear OK? (any whining sound?)
Are the hub dampers worn down, causing increased/excessive movement/oscillation of the splines under load?

Wow , I hadn't known that the moly escapes the splined area that much. Until last , year I also didn't know the existence of Honda's Moly Paste.
Since '78 , I had been using NAPA's moly EP grease that had turned into a synthetic base a few years ago. But the grease always seemed to stay put in the splines , in between tire changes on my 2 GoldWings and '81 SilverWing. I always have stuffed the splines with a lot of the grease.
Seeing this , I'm wondering if I should go back to the moly grease again on the ST ? I would have thought the thicker paste would have stayed put better than the more fluid grease .

Mick said:

Larry, is THIS the Belray assembly lube that you use? The Belray specs don't indicate the % of moly.

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I went to the BelRay website and got the MSDS for that product:


Other components below reportable levels 2.5 - 10

From another m\c forum, this is supposedly a snapshot of the ingredients for the Honda Moly 60 - it's supposedly from the MSDS ... I'm still searching for the Honda MSDS.

Mellow said:

I have never applied moly to the o-ring itself. Only the splines and have had very little ever spin out of the hub. I've also never replaced the o-ring on the 2 STs I've had. It makes a lot of sense that moly on the o-ring would allow it to NOT seal as well, if at all.

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Hmmm. From the official Honda 2003 Service Manual, page 16-10:

"Coat a new O-ring with molybdenum disulfide paste and install it into the groove"

caldercay said:

Hmmm. From the official Honda 2003 Service Manual, page 16-10:

"Coat a new O-ring with molybdenum disulfide paste and install it into the groove"

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Notice that they say to use "Moly Paste" in the text but the symbol used in the picture is for Moly Grease which is a different critter (see symbols on the page just prior to page 1-1 titled "Symbols" in the 2003 service manual). This looks to be a bit of a screw up in the manual but my bet is on Moly Paste for all the surfaces in that vicinity. It doesn't make sense to mix type of lubricants in that spot.

hmmmm.. well, I never did.. LOL

Mick said:

Notice that they say to use "Moly Paste" in the text but the symbol used in the picture is for Moly Grease which is a different critter (see symbols on the page just prior to page 1-1 titled "Symbols" in the 2003 service manual). This looks to be a bit of a screw up in the manual but my bet is on Moly Paste for all the surfaces in that vicinity. It doesn't make sense to mix type of lubricants in that spot.

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Nice catch Mick ... funny they show the moly-grease icon for the splines too.

So on that page, they state:
"Apply 3g of moly paste to the "mating surface of the rear wheel hub end and the final driven flange A".

Then on page 16-11, it states:
"Apply 5g of moly paste to the joint surface of the final gear case splines and driven flange".

So, based on those two pages, I assume that a total of 8g of paste is being applied to the flange area.

Let's go back to the "mating surface of the rear wheel hub end". I've read that 3-4 times now.
By "mating surface" ... are they referring to the flat surface "behind" the o-ring? The surface I've painted in yellow?

Honda moly 60 is just the name...belray claims they have more moly solids 42 percent etc. And from using it, it does appear to stick and last longer.
As far as the sevice manuel bloopers go...I still like the instalation of the oil filter at 20 ft lbs.

One thing about the moly measurements ... I dont think the gram to teaspoon conversion is accurate.
A teaspoon is associated with liquid (or dry) measurement, such as water or flour.

The grams in the service manual are grams-by-weight. Is gram-by-weight equivalent to liquid\dry measurement volume?
Is one teaspoon of flour equivalent in weight to one teaspoon of moly paste? I kind of doubt it, which is why I contemplate buying an inexpensive digital scale.

As a test, I liberally coated the male splines so you can't identify the teeth - IOW, I filled each groove to the level of each tooth's top end.
I then scraped the spline free of moly and placed it in a teaspoon (granted, I didnt do the female splines, so the amount should be doubled).
Here's the result (that's a teaspoon) ... obviously, my application would barely constitute a 1/2 teaspoon.
However, I have no idea how many grams that amount is.

caldercay;17784480 So on that page said:

155509[/ATTACH]

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If you remove the driven flange the area behind it requires the moly too, this is the area they are referring too..... the face of the wheel hub behind the flange.

Are we picking nits here?
C'mon, lets get real...

:BDH:

Wouldn't you know it, the horse's name was Molly!

Don B said:

Are we picking nits here?

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Yea, I'm probably splitting hairs around here ... back from Northern Tool - picked up a scale on sale for $9 (plus other tools I've needed).
So now I'll know how much paste to measure out.

More importantly, I'll now know more accurately how much Nolan Ryan Angus beef to portion out for my famous to me Sloppy Joes

And even more important, Larry provided us with a source for o-rings and moly paste.

my advice for this subject to make it simple (I do this stuff for a living)
#1 remove old o-ring and replace with fresh one coated with some kind of assembly fluid (not one sitting in hot garage for years)
#2 use a small acid brush and dip it in Molly paste
#3 brush paste on gear teeth without making a mess
#4 Reassemble everything and ride.

Now that we've mulled over the minute details of this question with the intensity of a bunch of hippies on acid staring at a lava lamp... my head's about to explode! .


So here's my take:

1. Quantity - Whether it's 1 or 2 teaspoons that Honda recommends, I don't really think it matters that much as to the exact amount. I think it would take one heck of a lot of paste literally packed in there to cause a problem.

As a result of this discussion, I may cut back on quantity just a little bit but my method of putting some moly in the valleys on opposing spline surfaces is probably not that much more than Honda recommends anyway. If I had to err one way or the other, I'd rather have a bit too much than too little. I think I'll also try the brush application technique next time. I've always just used my fingers or the end of a flat bladed screwdriver to apply it.

I'm pretty sure that the one time I had an O-ring grenade on me was because of a physically damaged O-ring, not the result of too much grease. When I took the wheel off, that O-ring was literally in pieces. I've used the same method of application through many tire changes on 3 ST1100's and now my ST1300 and it seems to work fine.

2. Type of lube - I'm going to stick with Honda Moly 60 since it's easy to get hold of and is what Honda recommends. I'm sure there are other brands of lube that will work just as well but I'm lazy and it's just too easy to walk into a dealership and pick some up.

3. O-ring / Moly compatibility - I just don't see this being a problem because where the rings are placed is right there where Honda recommends applying moly. One way or another, the paste is going to get on the O-rings. If you want to do something that will lessen the chance of there being a problem, just change the O-rings at every tire change. Those things are cheap.

caldercay said:

Nice catch Mick ... funny they show the moly-grease icon for the splines too.

So on that page, they state:
"Apply 3g of moly paste to the "mating surface of the rear wheel hub end and the final driven flange A".

Then on page 16-11, it states:
"Apply 5g of moly paste to the joint surface of the final gear case splines and driven flange".

So, based on those two pages, I assume that a total of 8g of paste is being applied to the flange area.

Let's go back to the "mating surface of the rear wheel hub end". I've read that 3-4 times now.
By "mating surface" ... are they referring to the flat surface "behind" the o-ring? The surface I've painted in yellow?

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This is a bit confusing. I initially found the reference to applying "5g of moly paste to the joint surface of the final gear case splines and driven flange" in the 2nd step of rear wheel installation beginning on page 16-11 (which has the correct MP symbol in my 2003 manual), and hadn't noticed what appears at first glance to be a discrepancy on the previous page. I looked at the service manual again after seeing this post, and discovered the point of confusion. Page 16-10 shows the final steps of the assembly of the final driven flange, and they didn't bother to show a photo of the part of the flange assembly that mates to the right wheel hub, which would actually be the "flip" side of the flange in the second photo on page 16-10. You can get a better idea what that refers to by looking at the illustration on page 16-9. The manual doesn't include any photo of the flange assembly removed from the wheel hub. The assembly steps next to the second photo on page 16-10 are also in the wrong sequence. Obviously, the 3g of moly paste must be applied to the mating surface of the rear wheel hub end and the final driven flange assembly before the assembly is installed into the wheel hub and secured with the snap ring. I didn't see initially why any lubrication would be needed on these surfaces until I realized that the flange assembly rotates slightly in the wheel hub as the rubber dampers are compressed and "relaxed" while riding the motorcycle. Bottom line is that we're talking about applying the moly paste to two different surfaces of the flange assembly. You wouldn't normally be doing the procedures described on pages 16-7 thru 16-10 when you do a routine tire change, unless you go to the trouble to check the rubber dampers for wear or damage every time you change the rear tire. I normally just stick a finger inside the wheel bearings and rotate to check for roughness when I have the wheel off.