Alternative calipesr or better brakes for yr2000 non ABS non linked ST1100

Sixstring

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Good Afternoon from the UK!

Has anybody tried, converted, or found anything better than the stock brake calipers?? mine has new fluid, braided hoses with individual lines and STILL has rubbish brakes! currently running brembo pads all round, rear lasts about 3k miles, fronts 4k. ( I currently commute 1000 miles a week to and from work so new pads every month!) help gratefully received..........really got to push down hard on the rear, and grab a real handful to stop quickly.

Warm Regards

Mike.
 

Mark

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braided hoses with individual lines
Does this mean braided stainless steel or something else?

I have SS individual lines on my '01 and find that I have way more stopping power than I need from the stock calipers on the front.
 

John OoSTerhuis

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Hi Mike,

Only 4K on a set of brake pads...?!?!? Something is horribly wrong with your brake system(s)! Assume you have OEM rotors on your '00 ST1100? What condition are they in... glazed so the pads can't get a good bite? Do the pistons move freely? Have you ever tried the Honda pads? I easily get 20K+ on my pads and can lock up either wheel anytime I want. Suggest you have a qualified technician do a full inspection of your ST's brakes!

John
 
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When I changed my old Triumph to individual lines to the front calipers the feel improved slightly over the deteriorating stock lines. New fluid may have been more responsible than the lines though.

Have you checked your calipers? The pads should last longer than 3-4000 miles, especially with a long commute with little brake usage. I've had automotive calipers that became sticky, especially when warm, leading to higher pedal effort and dragging pads. I've also had one motorcycle that required high effort on the brake lever, and I think the calipers were responsible then as well.

My 2001 ST (non-ABS, non-linked) has great brakes with stock calipers and unknown pads. I've only had it for 2000 miles, and the pads were 50% worn when I bought her. I find the rear brake more effective than my Triumph, fronts about the same.

Good luck, and please let us know when you find the rood cause of the problem.
 
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I am also shocked that the brake pads are wearing out that fast. Are they dragging all the time? If they were that would not only cause accelerated pad wear but the rotors would be running hot which reduces the friction level and therefore braking ability. So check that as it may be the source of the issue.

When you are braking you are converting kinetic energy through the use of friction to thermal energy which is dissipated when you are no longer braking. However as the system (pads more more importantly rotors) heat up, they will offer less friction and less braking power. From my experience of driving an American made truck for years on the Autobahn in Germany I learned that the original brake rotors were not able to dissipate heat from hard braking from 100+ mph. There were times where under heavy braking I could feel the brakes fade away. Also the recovery time was too great. By replacing the rotors with a higher quality rotors and a pad with more bite (higher metal content), I could brake harder and the rotors would cool quicker restoring the brakes to full potential. The trade off was more brake noise at slow speed and worse rotor life span as the pads had harder metals in the composition than normal.

So if the pads are dragging and the rotors are running hot all the time you will notice poor overall brake performance due to brake fade from heat and of course poor pad life. If you brake hard and have hot brakes you can also heat things up to the point where you boil the brake fluid in the calipers. If that happens you will loose brake performance. If that happens once, the brake fluid will boil again at a lower boiling point so it happens easier the next time. I have done this on a track here in the US in our old Audi. It is more likely to happen on a track type environment as you are hard on the brakes over and over without giving the brakes time to cool. The fix for that is a brake fluid flush and replacement. To help prevent it again replace the fluid with a higher quality racing fluid. I used to run Motul RBF600 Racing Brake Fluid back in the day to combat boiling the fluid. I want to say it is made in Europe so I would imagine you can get it on that side of the pond but if not I am sure something similar is available.

So start with the basics.

1. Make sure pads are not dragging. To test go for a short ride trying to not touch the brakes and see if the rotors are cool to the touch.
2. Make sure the rotors are to spec. There is a minimum thickness and make sure they are in good shape.
3. Flush replace brake fluid with a higher spec fluid

Braided brake lines are nice but it mainly will give better brake feel as the braiding helps prevent the rubber lines from bulging under heavy brake pressure. Since I have not problems locking a wheel with my 20 year old rubber lines, it isn't going to matter all that much in over all performance.

Are the brakes great on the 1100? Well if they are operating fine they are pretty good. Not the best but I think a lot of that has to do with how heavy the bike is over braking components. Like mentioned early, I have to watch it or I will lock of either wheel under too hard of braking. If I went more aggressive on the pads or rotors, it would still lock up just the same.

For me my pads outlast my tires. I am not that hard on my brakes though.
 

sirepair

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I'm running stock calipers and m/c, bss lines and Ferodo sintered pads w stock rotors and getting 18-20k miles from pads with excellent feel and stopping power. As others said, ya got some issues to check.
 

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I'm running stock calipers and m/c, bss lines and Ferodo sintered pads w stock rotors and getting 18-20k miles from pads with excellent feel and stopping power.
+1...
Give them stoppers a proper full overhaul... OEM parts work excellent.
IMHO also a quality brake fluid is essential.
 
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I found double H ceramic pads increased my stopping ability by about 50%. It may shorten the life of the rotors, but I can stop!
 
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Sixstring

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Thanks for the replies fellers!

Firstly, half of my commute is twisty bits, half motorway, so I may be hard on my brakes. Discs (rotors to you guys) are good, and within tolerances, pads are Brembo, and the brake lines are goodridge braided ones, one to each front caliper from the master cylinder on the front, and direct on the rear braided too. No disc pad drag, cold when returning if brakes hardly used. Guilty of prolonged high speeds, and hard braking for the junction offramps, forks running progressive springs and 10 weight fork oil. I ride my panny like a sportsbike sometimes, its tuned and dynojetted with stainless steel big bore system and stubby venom cans, KandN filter, Brisk spark plugs, and makes 125 Bhp on the dyno.
Looking for wavy discs, and probably will now have to fit Kawasaki 43mm upside down forks with massive discs and six-pots if I cant sort this. Totally happy with Panny, cruises at 130+ happily all day, and goes as well as I like it. oh, by the way, tried DOT5, didn't improve it much. DO have some cast iron rotors, might try them next.

This is probably me being pedantic, my Super Blackbird stops on a dime, but I'd like the same braking on my ST aswell.
 

John OoSTerhuis

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Hmmm... if everything is functioning properly but you're not happy with the performance (or longevity) of the Brembo pads, the very first thing I'd do is try a different brand of brake pads! Those certainly aren't working for you. I don't care if you're a 'Ricky Racer' or not, 3K and lousy braking and I'd never use that brand again. Just say'n...

JMNSHO, but Honda got it right with their stock pads.

Braking equal to a Blackbird...? How much does the B'bird weigh compared to the Pan?

John
 
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I agree with John. If all else seems operational, I would go with a set of the stock pads. They've always worked well for me and last much longer than what yur seeing.

For alternatives to the stock set up, do what Uncle Phil has done and swap out yur front end for the gear off a 98 or later ABS II bike, functionally very near to a ST1300, thicker fork legs and the same calipers as a 1300. It won't be linked or ABS, but much better in general.
 
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...oh, by the way, tried DOT5, didn't improve it much. DO have some cast iron rotors, might try them next. This is probably me being pedantic, my Super Blackbird stops on a dime, but I'd like the same braking on my ST aswell.
Just a couple observations (I ride an ST1300, so no direct experience with the ST1100, but I suspect general performance with proper OEM components is similar. Other owners of both - feel free to opine...):

Bear in mind the relative weights of the bikes. Super Blackbird dry - 494#, ST1100 dry - 633#. This is a HUGE difference. Kinetic energy is kinetic energy. Assuming equivalent tires, weight transfer, etc., i.e. only the bike weight being substantially different, the heavier bike will take longer to stop at threshold braking (verge of tire skid) than a lighter one, in somewhat linear proportion to weight difference. KE = mV?/2, m being bike mass or weight. The ST will always have a longer stopping distance/lower deceleration rates (by some 20+%) from a given speed than the Blackbird. You could put the most monstrous, bad@$$ front brake system on, and it just means you could lock the tires with lighter input pressure. ST will never stop as fast as Blackbird - laws of physics. Your rate of energy dissipation is limited by your frictional force between tire and road surface. Grippier tires could help a little, but only if you are riding in that 90+% performance envelope - approaching track racing limits.

It sounds like you couldn't lock/skid the front tire even if you wanted to. Can you skid the rear with moderate pedal pressure? I am certain something is wrong in your brake system due to pad wear at minimum. I cannot hazard a guess as to what it may be, but it seems focused on the front system (large percentage of stopping power).

One caution - many brake system soft components are damaged by DOT5 Silicone brake fluid. It is incompatible with non-silicone fluid. System must be throughly flushed out, hard parts cleaned with solvent, and thoroughly dried, and all rubber parts exchanged (seals, hoses, etc.), before any switch of fluid type (if all soft components are switched to DOT5 compatible materials). If you switched back and forth between DOT4 and DOT5 without this flush/clean/replace, and/or continue to use OEM soft parts with DOT5 fluid, some of your MC, hose, or caliper internals may be damaged.

Are the MCs OEM and in good condition? Same Q for calipers and rotors. Has the system been properly bled of air? Is the lever collapsing all the way to the grip before threshold braking levels are reached? Same Q for rear pedal. Are you trying to directly compare stopping distances/deceleration of the ST1100 with the performance of a lighter (much lighter?) sport bike (as described above)?

The brake pad wear defies belief at fully gone in <4k (km or miles). For even aggressive street riding with the grippiest, fastest wearing pads, I can't believe this pad life is reasonable. My ST1300 has 25k miles on it, and I just checked the pads and they are barely over 50% worn. I don't "track ride" on the street, don't do any high speed stopping on the street, but have had it on a racetrack before. Just a possibly meaningless comparison FWIW.

My opinion - Feel free to throw a bunch of money at the bike with a bunch of aftermarket parts, but I think your efforts along those lines
are likely misdirected.

YMMV. Hope this is informative.
 
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Sixstring

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Ah John.....I'm spoiled with the 'birds brakes, but I do realize what your saying..........:)

The thing is, before I "played" with the ST, the brakes were adequate for the job, but now they don't inspire confidence and don't appear to have "feel" like they used to. Have just bought some standard stock Honda pads, going to fit them tonight and see what difference if any it makes, and going back to stock discs (rotors) too. Oh- and I'll re-bleed ALL the brakes with a pressure bleeder and make sure everything is ticketty-boo with the caliper seals etc. Cant think of anything else to do!

Yes, a Panny will never be a sports bike in braking or performance, but I love tinkering with it, and doing what you lovely guys over the pond call "farkles".....

Gotta love the U.S.A:) and the biking fraternity............
 
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Sixstring

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Randy.......your opinions are much well received, and I totally agree. Have changed out all seals/hoses/etc since DOT5 tryout, I hoped for a real improvement, but didn't get it. 4K MILES (uk miles) is worst case scenario, from the rear pads, 5k uk miles are average for fronts.

True, my 'bird is miles lighter, but the relative "feel" of the brakes on the ST is poor. 600lb weight with twin pots and a potential 160mph bike is in my opinion underbraked now, and although it DOES stop ok, brake fade is prevalent sometimes at speed, and if some idiot pulled a T-bone on me on the motorway (highway) then my confidence in the ability of the brakes to stop me isn't great. HOWEVER, that said, they are competent and sufficient for normal "A" road riding over here, and two-up, at 70mph, OK.
I do a lot of high speed riding, and loaded up with panniers full, and top box too, sometimes they fade a lot, and I just wanted a bit more braking..........

Have never seen or heard of a USD fork conversion done on a ST1100, but several Kawasaki and Suzuki forks will fit the ST's yokes, and they also will fit the original front wheel and have 6-pot brakes on them, so watch this space, if the idea is a go-er, I'll post all details for everybody else.

THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR VALUED OPINIONS


Regards y'all......

MIKE
 

John OoSTerhuis

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Thanks for the follow-up posts, Mike. My friend George can correct me if I'm misremembering, but IINM, Dennis Martin fitted a CBR front end to his ST1100. But it was for handling (16" wheel), not braking. Unless you can quadruple the front tire contact patch somehow, you're not going to stop your Pan as quick/short as a 'Bird.

BTW, what brand and model of after-market rotors are performing so poorly and wearing out the Brembo pads so unbelievably fast?

Please follow-up with a report after the change to Honda rotors and pads.

John
 
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True, my 'bird is miles lighter, but the relative "feel" of the brakes on the ST is poor. 600lb weight with twin pots and a potential 160mph bike is in my opinion underbraked now, and although it DOES stop ok, brake fade is prevalent sometimes at speed, and if some idiot pulled a T-bone on me on the motorway (highway) then my confidence in the ability of the brakes to stop me isn't great. HOWEVER, that said, they are competent and sufficient for normal "A" road riding over here, and two-up, at 70mph, OK.
I do a lot of high speed riding, and loaded up with panniers full, and top box too, sometimes they fade a lot, and I just wanted a bit more braking..........
You are talking brake fade which happens as the brakes heat up. As we have mentioned you are converting kinetic energy into thermal energy which has to be dissipated. As the rotors (disks) heat up the friction between the rotors and pads drops. With it the ability to slow the wheels. Pretty much the best way to fight this is to add surface area to the rotor. This can be done by getting cross drilled rotors (they are OEM) and/or slotting the rotors. The other way which is more difficult is to install larger diameter rotors. This is more difficult as options are usually limited by mounting options for not only the rotor to wheel but also caliper mounts on the fork.

With the Super Blackbird not only are you looking at a lighter bike so much less to stop but also it likely has larger rotors. Because there is more surface area they will fight the heat build up better and because there is less weight they won't heat up nearly as fast even if the braking system were equal which I highly doubt is the case.
 
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Thanks for the follow-up posts, Mike. My friend George can correct me if I'm misremembering, but IINM, Dennis Martin fitted a CBR front end to his ST1100. But it was for handling (16" wheel), not braking. Unless you can quadruple the front tire contact patch somehow, you're not going to stop your Pan as quick/short as a 'Bird.

BTW, what brand and model of after-market rotors are performing so poorly and wearing out the Brembo pads so unbelievably fast? Please follow-up with a report about the change to Honda rotors and pads.

John
John, wasn't that also done to get a more standardized front tire? Something that could be found much easier than the goofy size that the 1100 has?

I am sure that there are lots of options when it comes to fork swaps. The biggest thing I would be concerned with is the geometry of the bike. If the forks are not as long, that will shorten the wheel base and drop the front end. Who knows what this will mean but it would likely result in making the bike handle more like a 1300. Not a bad thing but it is well known that the 1300 is more twitchy than an 1100. Not talking about Pan Weave as that doesn't seem to be consistent but just look at stability around dirty air coming off a large truck on a 1300 vs 1100. Being I have had both, I can attest to a huge difference there.

This said, I do agree that fork swap is likely the best option if you wanted to get bigger rotors which will help with brake fade. That may help the rear brake life if there is less fade on the front one would rely on the rear less as there isn't as much braking power back there anyhow.
 
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Your story reminds me of my braking woes with my Buick some time ago. I had noticeable brake fade immediately after highway speeds. I too "pushed" the speed limits where possible. It ended up being due to my brakes not releasing all the way, and were rubbing, and thus generated heat = brake fade. My auto mechanic at the time indicated this was a common problem, particularly in our area of Canada where salt is used during the winter and it really clogs up the brake slider pins. I've read some folks in the UK ride their bikes year round and occasionally ride on salted roads...which gums up the brake pins. Given your lengthy explanation on brake servicing, I can't imagine you've overlooked this area and the need for lubrication allowing everything to return to "normal" once you've released the brake lever/pedal. I've changed brake seals, pads, pins and thoroughly re-serviced the brakes on my former CX650E using OEM parts. Worked perfectly. As others have stated here, try the Honda parts.
 

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I do a lot of high speed riding, and loaded up with panniers full, and top box too, sometimes they fade a lot...
I only wonder how you manage to bring them brakes into a fading...
I too ride lots with two up and luggage, and I do like to "gun" it on the ST, chasing them "weekend warriors" on their squids and that...
In our Alpine terrain there is one tight hairpin after the other, thus really heavy braking at the threshold all the time (front is always nicely "mewling" when in pursuit/defend mode...), especially downhill, and I never had fading with my OEM brakes, yet I don't even opt for braided after-market lines (IMHO overrated), but do anal precise maintenance, use only BelRay Super DOT4 brake oil, etc...
In fact, the OEM brakes bite even better the more they'd warmed up...
My pressure point is rock hard, squeezing the lever is like trying to "vice" an inflated tire with your fingers, no chance to pull the lever through to the handle, ~1" is the max it moves at the end... so most of the time I slow that heavy rig down with just two fingers (and a gentle toe on the rear pedal of course, we don't want to waist those 20~30% brake capacity there ;-) )

Sometimes during motorcycle safety trainings the instructors conduct a little competition, quickest in slalom, best brake performance... guess what: my old '00 standard, non-ABS ST1100 made 4th place, right among current, top of the line bikes with the latest ABS/CBS/ESP/gobbledegook stuff aboard... (like that S1000RR last spring...) me on a bike designed in the late 80ies... so?
 
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Sixstring

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I'm liking this thread!
Have swapped over to OEM rotors and disk pads, ( Hey! I can speak American too......lol) and re-bled everything. Result: better brakes than before, but still just "OK".

The other wavy disks were quite marked from the brembo pads, but appear serviceable, and re-useable.

HOWEVER.....

After a "spirited" ride where I braked as hard as possible, NO brake fade, and discs cold-ish. Now this is strange, why the heck should good quality aftermarket parts perform worse than original OEM parts? so it seems its "just for looks" then that manufacturers make alternative rotors, lines, and other stuff then?
Still got in my opinion "adequate" brakes, but not good ones that inspire confidence. Fork swap it is then, bigger rotors, and six-pot calipers.

Many Thanks fellers for a great knowledgeable discussion. (BTW, I lecture in motorcycle maintenance and restoration at a college in the UK)
 
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