Alternative calipesr or better brakes for yr2000 non ABS non linked ST1100

Byron

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. . . HOWEVER.....

After a "spirited" ride where I braked as hard as possible, NO brake fade, and discs cold-ish. Now this is strange, why the heck should good quality aftermarket parts perform worse than original OEM parts? . . .
You never mentioned which Brembo pad you were running, was it the Road - SA or Road Carbon Ceramic?
 

John OoSTerhuis

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Thanks for the follow-up report, Mike. That was a quick changeout. Still would like to know the brand of aftermarket rotors.

Still got in my opinion "adequate" brakes, but not good ones that inspire confidence. Fork swap it is then, bigger rotors, and six-pot calipers.
Please poST a new thread when you've done the deed. Take pictures! TIA

John
 

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...why the heck should good quality aftermarket parts perform worse than original OEM parts?
I'd guess that the OEM ones are specifically designed for the individual vehicle*, whist after-markets are basically "universal"... despite all that glossy folder claims...
(Brake pads for the VRF750 have identical shape & design (but thinner lining IIRC) then the ones for the ST, still different P/Ns; also the front pads for the Deauville or CB500 appear identical, but just aren't...)

...so it seems its "just for looks" then that manufacturers make alternative rotors, lines, and other stuff then?
The "general forest and meadow" tuning-stores surely do, for their average clients its all about looks...

Any serious tuner would do a quite different approach: go to the drawing board and break out the slide rule ;-)
Then they will come with some seriously expensive stuff like carbon-rotors, 6-piston callipers (so in total 12 on them front brakes) and such... :cool:

Fork swap it is then, bigger rotors, and six-pot calipers.
Let's also not forget the risk of too powerful brakes... you don't want to lock up the front wheel at every gentle touch either...
Which is what I think the Honda engineers had managed to carefully balance when designing the ST1100 stoppers... in comparison the brakes are huge, massive and aside any average motorcycle/rider the deceleration rates are (still) impressive... (the '94 ABS-I/TCS did beat the "magical" 35 meters in stopping from 60mph/100kph...)
But OK, the design of the Pan-European AKA ST1100 origins in the mid/late 80ies...

(BTW, I lecture in motorcycle maintenance and restoration at a college in the UK)
Well, then you might not require my quite individual brake bleeding technique, but I spill it anyway ;-)

First am I using an air-powered vacuum-bleeder; regular bleeder nipples on the callipers, nothing special... only my trusted BelRay fluid, and there always new, still sealed bottles...
- suck out all old fluid from the reservoir and top off with new fluid
- start bleeding at the furthest calliper, while topping off the reservoir
- commence bleeding on the closer calliper, but this time allow the level in reservoir to drop to the MIN line (never below of course...)
- push pistons on one calliper fully in and pump back out for 3 times
- repeat procedure on other calliper, also: 3 times
- repeat full bleeding procedure again by starting at furthest, then working at the closest calliper, again keeping the reservoir level near the MIN at the end
- push all calliper pistons fully in again and now is the moment to top off fluid level to the MAX line
- pump callipers back out (I use this moment to check on smooth and quick operation: spin wheel by hand and blip on the brake lever, the wheel should instantly stop with a "BAM!" but the callipers also instantly release the rotors again) and tie brake lever to the handle (medium force, zip-tie, Velcro strip, piece of inner tube, bungee-cord, whatever is avail), and leave it for a couple of hours or even over night; one can do the same on the rear brake by hanging a hammer on the pedal...)

And then you might laugh your arse off about the fella next door on his highly modified GSX/RR/XX/whatever and his specially made braided brake lines with titanium banjos/gold plated dunnowhat, complaining about a mushy pressure point... cause in comparison your stoppers feel like grabbing a log... :lol:
 
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Good Afternoon from the UK!

Has anybody tried, converted, or found anything better than the stock brake calipers?? mine has new fluid, braided hoses with individual lines and STILL has rubbish brakes! currently running brembo pads all round, rear lasts about 3k miles, fronts 4k. ( I currently commute 1000 miles a week to and from work so new pads every month!) help gratefully received..........really got to push down hard on the rear, and grab a real handful to stop quickly.

Warm Regards

Mike.
First off, Honda's braking system is top notch, with some designs being patented and cannot be copied;).
Secondly, any use of other than OEM Honda pads will result in quicker wear of pads. Those rotors are harder than the hubs of hell, and will act like a cheese shredder on anythiny but, including the EBC TT rated pads. They may stop you better.......once heated up, but the rotors will eat them faster than OEM........BTDT:D;).
 
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I'm liking this thread!
Have swapped over to OEM rotors and disk pads, ( Hey! I can speak American too......lol) and re-bled everything. Result: better brakes than before, but still just "OK".

The other wavy disks were quite marked from the brembo pads, but appear serviceable, and re-useable.

HOWEVER.....

After a "spirited" ride where I braked as hard as possible, NO brake fade, and discs cold-ish. Now this is strange, why the heck should good quality aftermarket parts perform worse than original OEM parts? so it seems its "just for looks" then that manufacturers make alternative rotors, lines, and other stuff then?
Still got in my opinion "adequate" brakes, but not good ones that inspire confidence. Fork swap it is then, bigger rotors, and six-pot calipers.

Many Thanks fellers for a great knowledgeable discussion. (BTW, I lecture in motorcycle maintenance and restoration at a college in the UK)
They gotta get hot to work good...........track applications comes to mind. The fancy supposed 'hot' set-up is not necessarily for everyday street use;).
 
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Sixstring

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uh-oh......worms-can-open........ complete the well known saying......lol!

A small trip to the breakers saw me with a spare pair of forks, a spare pair of calipers, and a spare set of rotors, as new. SO...........Honda genuine parts brake pads, Belray fluid, pressure bleeder, and spare afternoon tomorrow.........strip down everything, clean, renew where needed, and bed in pads. Will report when finished.
 
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Secondly, any use of other than OEM Honda pads will result in quicker wear of pads. Those rotors are harder than the hubs of hell, and will act like a cheese shredder on anythiny but, including the EBC TT rated pads.
Hmmm, that hasn't been my experience. I've used OEM originally on my bike, followed by EBC HH sintered, Galfer superbike-something pads, and EBC HH sintered once again. I don't keep records, but I think I'm on my 4th set and they all did about 30k or so miles between sets. At 98k miles I finally replaced my factory rotors because they were down to the 4.00mm thickness limit. On my FZR1000 I replaced the rotors at a similar mileage, so that seems about normal for me. Its been so long I can't remember the OEM performance, but the EBC HH sintered I replaced them with way back when seemed to provide similar performance at the time. The Galfer pads were more of a race/track compound, so I didn't like them as well. If you really heated them up in the twisties they worked well, but for basic commuting use they didn't stop as well when cold.
 
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Sixstring

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Hello again fellers.....

Job done, NEW front forks, calipers, and OEM rotors and Honda std pads. 150 miles to bed them in, then my standard bit of motorway (highway) to test it out. Over a flying mile, the std setup brakes well, actually BETTER than the Galfer pads and wavy rotors previously fitted. Still doesn't brake as well as I think it should, or think I need, but my non-std ST1100 goes a fair bit better than a normal one, so I'm perhaps being pedantic.

This has been a good exercise, and PROVES that Mr Honda got it right first time, and all the aftermarket stuff is basically no better performance, (and in some cases is inferior) than the good quality OEM Honda std stuff if it is fitted correctly, and kept serviced regularly. It is a shame that I had to find all this out AFTER buying some aftermarket stuff, but it does look nicer than the OEM stuff..........lol

Thanks to all that offered opinions and advice, this only underlines the superb engineering Soichiro started, and continues to this day at Honda, I love my ST1100 and continue to improve, maintain, and keep what I consider one of the best motorcycles made going, and after 106k miles (first engine) then a further 65k miles (second engine) and now on my rebuilt tuned FIRST engine with stainless exhaust system, dynojetted carbs, tuned ported and polished heads, Hagon front and rear springs and uprated shock and aftermarket exhaust cans by Yoshimura, currently have done 6k miles so far without incident. Yeah, yeah, its not supposed to be a sportsbike, but it goes extremely well, cruises at an easy 130.......and a bit more if you need it, and handles very well. (Aint got no chicken strips.........)

Don't want an ST1300........:)
 

John OoSTerhuis

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Thanks for the nice follow-up, Mike. Always appreciated.

I am guessing that you ride your ST1100 without the saddlebags and have probably 'bobbed' the rear fender. :) Special paint and/or graphics/decals? Any pictures to share of all the tasty bits on your one-of-a-kind ST?

Regards, John
 
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Sixstring

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Actually, NO John....

Mine just almost looks stock, in 50th Anniversary gold, with stock panniers and std Honda top box. HOWEVER....what gives it away a bit is the stance, the sound from the Yoshimura cans, the induction noise, and the fact it chases sports bikes, and goes around corners scraping things......lol

WHEN I can find out how to post up piccies, I will do, cos it doesn't appear to work on the files from computer bit, might have to use a hosting site or something.

BTW, this is a ~GREAT site, with nice like-minded people who appear to love the ST1100 as much as I do!!
 
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Sixstring

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No, thankfully not, but it DID help with revs, making it a little more free -revving and tractable between fourth and fifth gears. Easily reaches 110-115 in fourth without strain before it barely reached 90.......:)

I did mean to say it scraped things WITH front and rear suspension upgrade...hahaha! (massive lean angle now, safely...)

Nothing like seeing the face of a sports bike rider as a "big old heavy tourer with panniers on two-up" passes him easily...........
 

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No, thankfully not, but it DID help with revs, making it a little more free -revving and tractable between fourth and fifth gears.
Easily reaches 110-115 in fourth without strain before it barely reached 90.......:)
Which is weird... is the US setup so different from the EC spec?
4th should exceed 120... V-max in 5th with a well broken in engine should be 140~150...
I've been there, German m/way showing a nerd in a Beemer that I still have a gear to go at ~130... and did see about 150 while pulling away... but yes, getting tough >115...
It of course depends on the installed accessories, large windscreens, side wind deflectors and fluttering Gore stitches are a no-no for such stunts...

I did mean to say it scraped things WITH front and rear suspension upgrade...hahaha! (massive lean angle now, safely...)
I go there on race track tarmac during the annual safety trainings (there have been incidents where the pillion startled over her dragging a boot due sitting just too comfy...), but refrain from the very last bit on regular, public roads... just too many uncontrollable variables out there...

Nothing like seeing the face of a sports bike rider as a "big old heavy tourer with panniers on two-up" passes him easily...........
You forgot tank-bag and top-case in that picture... :cool:
And yes, it confuses the fool out of them dudes when such a "gentleman express" homes in, passes, hell even pulls away on those twisty mountain roads... :lol:
I'm not talking about a drag race, a fully equipped ST has a fight weight of like 600kg/1300lbs, and everyone with a healthy right hand can go fast on a straight piece of road...
But cornering, steep hairpins and such... that's the terrain that Pan-European was build for...
I sometimes lead groups, CBR600, Fireblades, XX and all that... and often enough got addressed with quite some fancy language...
 
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Haha.........I don't "hammer the guts" out of mine often, but if I need to, it WILL do over 125 in fourth, but then in fifth will hold 140 easily. However, as you say, I have a good MRA screen fitted with deflector on the top, side and mirror wind deflectors fitted, panniers, top box, and I'm a svelte 108kg weight too, so I'm not complaining, its not that smooth over here in the UK with our winds and poor highway roads.

Did try once with no panniers, low screen, no top box, and nice day no wind, and took it over the 150 on the speedo by a little bit, very happy at the sound of the engine, no real strain, but we really don't have your great roads to use it often. Mine weighs in at 616kg loaded, and that's not bad for a "gentleman's express"........lol

You obviously love the model, and its great to see. Do you all dispense with the PAIR system?

Yes, the UK spec POLICE bikes are totally different spec to the road bikes we can buy, and are "tweaked" a little too, on electrics and engines. I think our UK spec bikes are still 90 bhp same as your ST1100s though. One of our Police forces STILL uses ST1100s rather than ST1300s because they reckon its a better bike, they were still made by Honda for them until 2003, and they still have a back-up stock of crated unused bikes (I'm give to believe over 20!) in a warehouse.

With the mods mine has got done, it certainly hasn't changed the lovely torquey characteristics of the '11, but has made it a lot more free-revving, and accelerates a lot better than stock, although it has done little for top speed- but as I said, we don't have the roads to take advantage of that anyway. The local 'plod (police to you) have a secret weapon- its an ST1100 in black with a set of cameras on it, and a recorder in the top box. It just isn't playing fair, but at least most of our local bikers are aware, and watch for it. The car drivers are not so lucky, its up behind them and recording before they know it, and then its too late..........

I live near the Welsh mountains, and that's REAL ST1100 country!!
 

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Just a note - The brakes on an ABSII ST1100 (I have 2 of those and one standard) are far superior to the standard braking system - not the ABS part but the actual brakes. The ABSII pads have ridges in them and are much more aggressive than the standards and the ABSII discs/rotors are smaller. I can bring either one of my ABSII ST1100s to complete stop with two fingers on the front lever. BTW, I have not swapped out the forks and brakes on my standard just yet, but it is on the horizon as I finally have my workshop completed. I am running the ABSII wider rim on my standard ST1100 with the standard discs and it works just fine (gives me all the ST1300 front tire options). The swap also requires a different triple tree and the different front fender. It appears that the linked part is actually mechanical and not electrical, so I will probably do the whole system swap. (I have all the parts). However, I would think if a 'y' line was installed to fire the linked pot on the front calipers in unison with the rest of the pots, there would be even more serious stopping power.
 
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ST1100Y

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Haha.........I don't "hammer the guts" out of mine often...
Normally no need, it purrs and pulls nicely and smooth between 3700 and ~5000 (max torque at 4200, max output at 6000), and passing through a hairpin in 2nd gear and have that strong pull from ~1200rpm on is just priceless...
Incidentally hit the rev limiter while passing in 3rd once... dumb me simply had forgotten to shift...

I think our UK spec bikes are still 90 bhp same as your ST1100s though.
By title both, my '94 and the '00 have 74kW/100HP, German ST's are reduced to 98hp for tax reasons (narrowed cab boots), and rumour tells that Switzerland had ~70hp models (different ICU)...
I've no info about other OEM versions though...
And yes, as long as there no leaks the PAIR stays in... its removed on the '94 now, couldn't tell much difference in performance though it is speculated to gain ~2hp by blocking the lines.

I live near the Welsh mountains, and that's REAL ST1100 country!!
Yep, BTDI too... :cool:
 
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