swing arm lock nut tool question

Note: I'm anal retentive, OK...? I know ST1100 riders that have made a mark on the left pivot bolt lockring and a corresponding one on the frame, and then had simply matched them back up during reassembly with a piece of pipe or maybe even with a drift.

As they say, FYI FWIW and YMMV and probably will.

Hey, guys!

I have one question regarding the torque value for the swingarm lock nut. I ended up making my own tool out of a 1 1/4" socket in order to remove the swingarm locknut, and I already had a 19mm hex tool to remove each pivot bolt.

My question is:

I know that the Honda tool for the swingarm pivot locknut has the "offset" extension "tab" where the torque wrench connects to, and that the torque wrench should be attached at a 90 degree angle to the center line of that "tab" in order to achieve the proper torque value applied to the fastener. However, because my homemade tool doesn't have that extension offset "tab" but is rather just a socket with the appropriate "teeth"--and therefore effectively changes the length from center point of the lock nut to the end of the torque wrench handle compared to what it would be if I used the Honda tool--if I use my homemade tool, then does anyone know if I should change the torque value that I apply to the swimgarm locknut in order to compensate for the different style tool that I'd be using?

If so, what would that new torque value be for using my homemade socket style tool? @Igofar maybe you'll have an answer for this too? Lol! I know it would probably be best to just use the Honda tool, but I'm kind of in a hurry, and if I can just get the correct torque spec using my own tool, then I'd prefer to do that.

Attached, you will see the style tool that I made so that you can understand what I'm talking about if you're confused.

Thanks!

Do you have an ST1100 or ST1300?
The 1100's use a different tool, and procedure(s) than the 1300's do.
I understand your in a hurry, and you'd prefer to use what you've made, however, I certainly would not guess or jury rig the torque specs on a swingarm on either of these bikes.
I would only suggest that you use the correct tool, and follow the service manual to the letter on the adjustment procedure etc.
Remember the Pan Weave issues? This was corrected by hand fitting and shimming the swingarms on the 1300's and carefully using the correct tools and torque values etc.
I (myself) would be concerned with creating a dangerous handling issue by not using the correct procedure(s) and tools.
I'm sorry I would not be of more help.

Igofar said:

Do you have an ST1100 or ST1300?
The 1100's use a different tool, and procedure(s) than the 1300's do.
I understand your in a hurry, and you'd prefer to use what you've made, however, I certainly would not guess or jury rig the torque specs on a swingarm on either of these bikes.
I would only suggest that you use the correct tool, and follow the service manual to the letter on the adjustment procedure etc.
Remember the Pan Weave issues? This was corrected by hand fitting and shimming the swingarms on the 1300's and carefully using the correct tools and torque values etc.
I (myself) would be concerned with creating a dangerous handling issue by not using the correct procedure(s) and tools.
I'm sorry I would not be of more help.

Click to expand...

Thank you for your response! It is actually my dad's '03 ST1300A that I've been going through. I do have the Honda service manual, and I definitely agree with you on doing it right over doing it fast. I, too, would hate to create a dangerous situation.

I suppose I have one more question, then. I see earlier in this thread that folks mentioned that the proper way to achieve the correct torque value of the pivot locknut when using the Honda tool is to attach the torque wrench at 90 degrees to the extention "tab," and then apply the proper torque.

But, after looking at the Honda manual, in the illustration it shows the torque wrench attached IN-LINE with the tool's extension offset "tab." Now, @Igofar, or anyone else, do you know which would be the proper way? Here's a pic of that illustration.

And lastly, can you please explain to me what is meant by "actual" versus "indicate" where they lost the two torque values of "80ft lbs" vs "72 ft lbs"? My guess is that possibly if the torque wrench is at 90 degrees to the offset "tab", then the torque spec would remain the same, but if I were to place the torque wrench inline with this tab, then it would effectively lengthen the tool and create a higher torque value--so maybe that is what the "72lbs" is for?

Thanks!

The purpose of the hole in the middle of the Honda special tool for the left pivot bolt lock ring is to allow a 17mm hex-bit socket through it to hold the pivot bolt while you lock it to keep it from changing the very important preload on the swingarm bearing. You don’t want to tighten the already set-to-spec preload while you secure it from loosening with the lock ring. Too much preload can cause serious problems. MNSHO

Edit: The torque value for the lock ring is figured for the special tool’s offset, so that the lock ring won’t back off and not strip/stress the lock ring and frame threads.

Look… do what you want… mark the bolt-to-frame when torqued correctly, and crank down the lock ring with your home-made tool and hopefully verify that the marks remain unchanged. But consider that even a 1 foot pound (12 inch pounds) increase in preload can have a significant effect. Use any torque you want for the lock ring with your tool, if it’s good enough for you to do the procedure, any torque (“good-n-tight”) should be OK…

John

John OoSTerhuis said:

The purpose of the hole in the middle of the Honda special tool for the left pivot bolt lock ring is to allow a 17mm hex-bit socket through it to hold the pivot bolt while you lock it to keep it from changing the very important preload on the swingarm bearing. You don’t want to tighten the already set-to-spec preload while you secure it from loosening with the lock ring. Too much preload can cause serious problems. MNSHO

The torque value for the lock ring is figured for the special tool’s offset, so that the lock ring won’t back off and not strip/stress the lock ring and frame threads.

Look… do what you want… mark the bolt-to-frame when torqued correctly, and crank down the lock ring with your home-made tool and hopefully verify that the marks remain unchanged. But consider that even a 1 foot pound increase in preload can have a significant effect.

John

Click to expand...

Appreciate your input, John!

I realized after I last posted that the reason for the "hole" in the middle of the Honda tool is to hold the pivot bolt in place while torquing down the outer locknut. So, when using the special Honda tool, should I set my torque wrench to 80ft lbs? Or 72 ft lbs? And should I attach the torque wrench to the tool's offset tab at a 90 degree angle, or inline with the tab? Those are the only two things now confusing me, because the manual shows in the illustration the torque wrench inline with the first tab, and it has two different torques values listed (one "actual" of 80 ft lbs, and one "indicated" of 72 ft lbs).

I definitely want to do this correctly. So, I'll try and get my hands on the tool.

John, do you have this tool for loan for the ST1300?

Thanks so much for all of your guys' advice/info!

This site explains it



No adjustment required



Adjustment required


Setting on wrench = (torque wrench length x torque desired) ÷ (torque wrench length + adapter extension length)

Burt, I don’t have an ST1300 manual, Honda or aftermarket, nor will I download a digital version just to look at the swingarm procedure… so can’t comment on the two torque values you mention. That said, there have been a number of lengthy discussions on how to apply the torque to an offset tool and what value to use. On the ST1100, after listening to physics professors, I understood the ideal method was to have the torque wrench positioned at 90 degrees to the axis of the tool’s offset tang when arriving at the spec’d lock ring’s value (76 foot pounds).

I do have swingarm bearing tools for both the ST1100 (two of them) and the ST1300. One of the ST1100s is in the alt upgrade kit and is OEM Honda. The other is an exact copy made and donated by a fellow STrider. BTW, I have a detailed schematic* with dimensions/etc of the ST1100 tool available should one want to make their own. The ST1300 version is a commercial aftermarket version. All the tools are a free loan to STriders and come with the 17mm (ST1100) or 19mm (ST1300) hex-bit socket in 1/2” drive.

Edit: I see Tom poSTed while I was still keyboarding. Thanks.
*Edit 2: http://www.st-riders.net/coppermine/displayimage.php?album=21&pid=1062#top_display_media

John

John OoSTerhuis said:

Burt, I don’t have an ST1300 manual, Honda or aftermarket, nor will I download a digital version just to look at the swingarm procedure… so can’t comment on the two torque values you mention. That said, there have been a number of lengthy discussions on how to apply the torque to an offset tool and what value to use. On the ST1100, after listening to physics professors, I understood the ideal method was to have the torque wrench positioned at 90 degrees to the axis of the tool’s offset tang when arriving at the spec’d lock ring’s value (76 foot pounds).

I do have swingarm bearing tools for both the ST1100 (two of them) and the ST1300. One of the ST1100s is in the alt upgrade kit and is OEM Honda. The other is an exact copy made and donated by a fellow STrider. BTW, I have a detailed schematic* with dimensions/etc of the ST1100 tool available should one want to make their own. The ST1300 version is a commercial aftermarket version. All the tools are a free loan to STriders and come with the 17mm (ST1100) or 19mm (ST1300) hex-bit socket in 1/2” drive.

Edit: I see Tom poSTed while I was still keyboarding. Thanks.
*Edit 2: http://www.st-riders.net/coppermine/displayimage.php?album=21&pid=1062#top_display_media

John

Click to expand...

Thank you @STRider, and @John OoSTerhuis for both the article describing the torque calculation formula, and for the other info John!

John, any chance you have a schematic of the dimensions for the ST1300 swingarm locknut part? The part number for that one is 07ZMA-MCAA101.

I'm thinking of making my own version of the Honda tool by cutting off the back side of the socket I already made, and then welding on an extension/offset tab! I just want to know what the exact distance I should make the center of the "pipe" portion of the tool (with the "teeth"), to the center of the square hole where the torque wrench will attach.

By rearranging the equation that @STRider provided above, and using the torque spec listed in the ST1300 manual of 72ft lbs "indicated" (using the 72ftlbs instead of the 80 ft lbs in order to account for the added length of the offset tab/extension of the tool), I calculated that the distance from center to center on the ST1300 tool should be 2.0555555... inches, or roughly just a shade over 52mm, so slightly longer than the 47mm of the ST1100 version of the tool. So, I suppose I've figured out what the center to center distance SHOULD be in order to get the correct torque spec applied to the locknut with the Honda tool, but I would love to just cross-reference this calculation with an actual schematic of the tool's dimensions if anyone has the actual ST1300 tool!

Also, I think I now realize the reason the Honda manual states two different torque values:

-If the torque wrench were to be mounted on the Honda tool IN-LINE with the tool's offset/extension tab, then you'd effectively change the center-to-center length, and as a result the "actual" torque being applied to the locknut would be more than 80 ft lbs. In order to avoid this issue, you'd set the torque wrench to 72ft lbs in order to ACTUALLY apply 80 ft lbs to the locking nut!

-Now, if you mount the torque wrench on the Honda tool at a 90-degree angle to the offset/extension tab of the tool, then you'd actually set the torque wrench to 80 ft lbs because you wouldn't be changing the actual center-to-center distance, and therefore it would actually be applying a proper 80 ft lbs to the lock nut!

That's why I used the 72ft lbs spec in the equation in order to figure out the ST1300's version of the tool's center-to-center distance--in order to account for the added center-to-center length if the torque wrench were attached to the Honda tool IN-LINE with the offset/extension tab portion of the tool!

So, if I'm not mistaken, to summarize, when using the Honda tool:
-set the torque wrench to 72 ft lbs if attaching the torque wrench to the tool IN-LINE with the offset/extension tab in order to get an actual proper 80 ft lbs on the swimgarm locknut. However, set the torque wrench to an actual 80 ft lbs if attaching the wrench at a 90 degree angle to the offset/extension tab of the Honda tool! This also now makes sense why they show in the illustration in the Honda manual the torque wrench being installed IN-LINE with the offset/extension tab of the tool, and why they list both torque values!

It's all clicking now--no pun intended!

Sorry to be a pain, lol, but I truly appreciate all of your help!

Thank you,

-Tanner

I agree with your rationale.

The ST1300 tool I have measures 54mm, center of the 1/2” drive hole on the tang to the center of the hole in the ‘pipe’ part. I don’t have a schematic, sorry.

Can’t tell from the picture of your tool, but wonder if you can make a hole in it big enough for a 19mm hex-bit.

Good luck.

John

John OoSTerhuis said:

I agree with your rationale.

The ST1300 tool I have measures 54mm, center of the 1/2” drive hole on the tang to the center of the hole in the ‘pipe’ part. I don’t have a schematic, sorry.

Can’t tell from the picture of your tool, but wonder if you can make a hole in it big enough for a 19mm hex-bit.

Good luck.

John

Click to expand...

Thanks for the info, @John OoSTerhuis!

You know, if you have ST1300 tool available currently, then I'd love to loan that from you. It would be much easier than trying to make mine work properly.

What do I need to do in order to loan it?

Thanks,

Tanner

Tanner, I’ve sent you a one-way PM.

John

Tools in the mail today.

John