Steering Head Bearing Torque question

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The Service manual for up to 2007 states that when using OEM bearings, the adjustment is to torque the adjusting nut to 18 foot pounds, move the triple tree back and forth a few times to seat the bearings, then loosen, then torque to the "correct" setting at 11 foot pounds, then.....tighten it an additional 45 degree's or 1/8 of a turn. When I do this, the handlebar is smooth turning, and does not hunt, however, it will fail the drop away test I've always used...(strip bars, and turn 15 degrees towards the center, then release, the bars should gently fall back to the stop with a single gentle bounce) if it does not reach the stop, its too tight, and if it bounces a couple times, its too loose etc.
The Honda General service manual says to tighten to correct torque, then loosen, then re-torque to 10 foot pounds, then BACK IT OFF 1/8th of a turn?
Any comments on what worked for you (I am only interested in OEM bearings)
Thanks for any suggestions provided.
Igofar
 

dduelin

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The test isn't the drop away test but rather a specific range of values measured by pulling on one fork tube with a scale. I can't recall the values w/o looking in the manual but it's something like 2.6 to 4 lbs of pull. The procedure is in the service manual at least through 2006.
 
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I'm just getting ready to do this bearing replacment myself (OEM bearings) and my service manual states the same as yours and then after 07 it says torque adjusting nut to 22 ft lb. then install the lockwasher and lock nut. then the top bidge and torque top biridge nut to 76 ft lb. Then you check the preload with spring scale. Mine never has done what you describe as your drop test even when it was new, there has always been a definite preload there. Just now i have a very slight notch in the center position. I wonder what has changed from 07 on that makes the setup procedure different....
 

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The 2003 ONLY Honda Service Manual has a different procedure. Oil the bearing adjusting nut threads. Tighten adjusting nut to 22 lb-ft. Move steering stem Right and left, lock to lock, five times to seat the bearings. Stem to move smoothly, without play or binding. Loosen adjusting nut. Re-tighten adjusting nut to 22 lb-ft. Recheck that the steering stem moves smoothly without play or binding. Install new lock washer. Align two tabs opposite of each other and bend down (shorter) tabs in to adjusting nut. Finger tighten the lock nut. Tighten locknut withing 1/4 turn (90?)to align its grooves with the lock washer tabs. Bend tabs up into locknut. Install fork legs. Top bridge and tighten steering stem nut to 76 lb-ft.

Pre-load test. Jack motorcycle up to raise the front wheel off the ground. Make sure no cable or wire harness interference. Use a scale attached to the fork 90? to the front axle. Scale should read 3.5 - 4.6 lbs. If not adjust the steering bearing adjusting nut.

By Larry's write up, things have changed since the first manual. The amount of resistance measured with a scale will determine the final re-tighten amount. Can one measure that long before reassembling all of the components? I would think so and then recheck after all is back together to verify.
 

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.......snipped

Pre-load test. Jack motorcycle up to raise the front wheel off the ground. Make sure no cable or wire harness interference. Use a scale attached to the fork 90? to the front axle. Scale should read 3.5 - 4.6 lbs. If not adjust the steering bearing adjusting nut.

By Larry's write up, things have changed since the first manual. The amount of resistance measured with a scale will determine the final re-tighten amount. Can one measure that long before reassembling all of the components? I would think so and then recheck after all is back together to verify.
Ah, that's the rub. The definitive test is the preload test with the scale which is done after everything is assembled. Like gsforster said, my bike never would have passed the drop and bounce test from day one until I changed the bearings at 96,000 miles. Even then I could not detect a dent in the bearing race with the mass of the forks and wheel installed. I found it by chance when doing a fork oil change when the fork and wheel were dropped out of the clamps and I bumped a handlebar end - the handlebars self-centered when moved slightly from straight ahead.

Although I did not use OEM ball bearings I found that the lock nut needed to be barely finger tight as the final torque on the top nut changed the preload value significantly. I had to disassemble the handlebars and top bridge a number of times to get the pull values within the given range. All the stuff needs to be assembled as the mass of the complete assembly affects the amount of force necessary to begin moving the forks at a given pull value.
 
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Igofar
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Third times a charm! Mr. DD is absolutely correct about the "barely finger tight" on the lock nut. I turned mine the first couple times with just my hand, but then again, I've been told I have a GI Joe Kung Fu grip :rofl1: I adjusted it tonight more by feel, than by following the instructions. I did the 18 ft. lbs. turned it back and forth 5 times, then backed it off, then smoothly snugged it up to 11 ft. lbs. and did not do the 45 degree further adjustment the books says to do, as I think that is a misprint, and is talking about the amount of degrees you are allowed to move the locknut before bending the tabs in. Anyway, I turned the lock nut on very gently, and till it just mated to the adjusting nut, and only had to go about 1/4 inch more, to reach the tab slots.
Put everything back together, and now when pointed straight, it only takes about 2 to 3 lbs. of pull to start the fall away, and gently glides down and just comes to rest on the stop without bouncing.
Handles smooth, turns in very well, and no more vibration or wiggle.
Now if I can just get my worn out stock fork springs replaced with the sonic springs that will be coming soon, and replace all the bushings and parts in the front end, The bike may start handing like it should again.
Thanks for the comments.
Igofar
 
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... and did not do the 45 degree further adjustment the books says to do, as I think that is a misprint, and is talking about the amount of degrees you are allowed to move the locknut before bending the tabs in...
+1. If you're following the manual's instructions and tighten the lock nut to finger tight and the tabs don't line up, the manual doesn't say what to do then. Should you tighten the lock nut more or loosen it up to get the tabs to line up? I think that the manual is trying to say that once it's finger tight, you have 45 degrees of further tightening on the lock nut that is tolerable in order to line up the tabs.
 
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Igofar
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Honda Service Manual Information Requested & help needed

Like the commercial says....what's in your wallet?...well what's in your service manual?
My service manual is OEM Honda 2003-2008
My bike is a 2007 ST1300A with 65K miles on it, recent complete service, TB sync, Valve Inspection, CB adjusted, and in perfect running condition (noticed I said running, and not riding)
Does anyone out there have the factory OEM manual for any other years?
I'm wondering if I may have a misprint (like that would ever happen :rofl1:)
I need anyone and everyone check their manuals and please post what the torque setting is for your steering head bearings.
My 2003 -2007 indicates 18lbf-ft, then back off, the set at 11lbf-ft, then 1/8 turn more.
Yet, the 2003 only manual lists 23 ft. lbs. only and does not list a lesser one.
And my manual indicates after 2007 to use 22 ft. lbs. as well
The bearing races and bearings appear to be the same part numbers, and I can't see anything that has changed etc.
If you have a moment, could you please check to see what your service manual says?
Please post year or year(s) on the cover, and what your torque specifications are.
Thank you so much for taking the time to assist me in this issue.
I've replaced just about everything I can think of, and I still am getting a "riding on marbles wiggle" that I've never had before.
Its got me spooked enough that I don't want to ride the bike until I get it sorted out.
I've ordered new tires, even though mine are just now starting to reach the wear bars on the rear, (Pirelli Angel GT's) and have a little over 10K on them.
So far I've replaced, inspected, or rebuilt the following in the last couple weeks:
New flange bearings - O-rings - dampeners
New brake pads - caliper seals - clips, and pins - all
Bled the entire brake system to my OCD specs!
Replaced the front wheel bearings (RKA - china bearings) My bad, it was on a Sunday night.
Replaced the steering head bearings and races - OEM parts - (this is the reason I need to double check the specs in your manuals)
Rebuilt the forks - sonic springs - 125mm spacers & oil level, 7wt oil - new bushings, slider bushing, inspected the damper units (they appear to be working as they should, and have no signs of wear etc.
Replaced the U-joint (helped solve the smoothness and snatch ) but still have the riding on ICE feeling when turning slowly.
Re-serviced the preload adjuster & fluid and checked the damping setting
Got the front sag about 1.5 inches, and the rear sag about the same.
I've just ordered more OEM wheel bearings for the front end, and a brand new SMC Assembly (just in case its grabbing and causing the shudder)
No signs of heat on any of the discs, all pads almost new, wearing evenly, no air in the system (including the SMC & PCV units)
When I replaced the U-joint, I inspected the swing arm bearings, races were like new, bearings turned smoothly, although very little grease on them, so I cleaned them, and repacked them with the best bearing grease available.
The rear wheel splines are in good shape etc.
The rear wheel bearings (wheel) are smooth and turn easily, with no rough spots etc.
Neither tire has excessive cupping or raised edges, (rear wheel just starting to get raised edges on outside sipes) but I've ridden worse and had no wiggle.
Tire pressures at 42-42 confirmed with several air pressure gauges.
I'm out of things to try? I'm hoping the steering head bearings are just loose causing this feeling etc.
I've raised the bike and pulled on the forks - no play, turned the wheel to full lock and held it with my foot and checked for sideways movement - none
So far the ONLY thing that I have felt is when inserting a finger in each side of the bearings, and having my wife spin the wheel slowly, I felt a bump every once and a while as the inside spacer was being moved around by the tip of my finger, once I ran the axle though the wheel I could not feel it again. The bearings are gently seated against the spacer correctly, and I was only able to feel it move the thickness of a paper index card, and the bearings were installed with proper tools, and do not appear to be side loaded, etc.
I'm at my wits end.....does anyone want to take a shot at it?
The ST Whisper is at a loss for words!
Igofar
 
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Igofar
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Dang....spoke too soon, my wiggle is still there.
Now what to try?
 
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Igofar
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Update: Just checked the parts fiche for a 2003, 2007, 2009, and 2012 ST1300A, and the Steering stem, races & bearings are all the same part numbers!
Can't imagine the frames are any different either.
And as one member pointed out, his 2003 torque is the same as the "after 2007" specifications.
Miss print in the manual?
I'm tempted to remove the handlebars yet again, to tighten the bearings down to the 23 ft. lbs. and see if my ice skating feeling goes away?
Suggestions or comments welcome.
Igofar
 
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CYYJ

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Re: Honda Service Manual Information Requested & help needed

Hi Larry:

The kind of really heavy-duty stuff you are doing with the steering is beyond my skill level, hence I can't comment from experience. But, I have a 2014 (yes, 2014, no typo) ST 1300 Service Manual, and it has a fair amount of information about the steering system in Chapter 15. I have scanned some pages and sent them to you via regular email (this to avoid any copyright issues here in the forum). It is noteworthy that it appears that there are two different procedures for dealing with the steering head bearing, one for model years 2003 to 2007 inclusive, and one for post-2007 models. I have highlighted these differences in the scans I sent you.

On a related matter (relates to front end, but not to that bearing), there is a January 2013 revision to the tolerances for runout on the front wheel. That revision affects the top image and paragraphs on page 15-17 of the Service Manual. I have sent you a scan of that page, with the revision highlighted.

You can also find a complete set of revisions to update manuals published in 2010 to 2014 status at this post: Revisions (Error Corrections) to ST 1300 Service Manual.

Michael
 

Mellow

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Threads merged since it all pertains to the same effort.

Larry, seems like you've covered all the major areas but I do have a question about tires... which ones are you running? Some tires to have more of an off-center drop/feel to them than others and even within the same brand/model tires, you have have defects or discrepancies that are unusual... not all of the same tires are identical due to manufacturing issues so I would also try changing those if that's an option for you.
 

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The steering head bearing torque value changes in different year manuals are a red herring. After the forks are reassembled there is a preload value that will tell you if the steering effort falls within specification. What is the preload value on each fork leg? If the preload value is within range of 2.1 to 3.2 lbs the forks will not fall to either side of center. (SM Version 2003, printed March 2004 with updates through 2006, with no subsequent changes or updates to steering bearing install procedure) You earlier said the forks fall gently to the stop. The forks don't fall to the side with correct preload values. Perhaps the problem is as simple as setting up the steering head bearings correctly.

Changing steering bearings and their effect on steering effort combined with screwing around with both the forks and swing arm at the same time introduces a lot of variables to sort out.

Can you measure and give the precise sag numbers for the forks and rear shock with your weight on the bike? A stock ST1300 with a 220 - 250 lb rider is going to have 50 mm or more of sag in the forks and 30 or more with the standard preload setting of 7 clicks after the adjuster begins to actually work. If your sag is really 38 mm now with the new springs then your steering effort will be noticeably different than before but it should be slower steering, not faster. You can change that by raising the forks in the clamps and setting rear sag to less than 30 mm.

Is there a shop nearby that knows suspensions? Perhaps you need to take it to someone that knows what they are doing.
 

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Re: Honda Service Manual Information Requested & help needed

Did you put the Stock ball bearings back in or did you go with tapered bearings in the steering head? As you know, the torque values in the manual are for ball bearings. If you went with tapered bearings, it is trial and era by feel.

(2003 manual... Oil the bearing adjusting net threads then tighten to 22ft lbs. move stem left and right a few times then loosen and retighten bearing adjusting nut to 22 ft lbs.............Tighten STeering STem Nut to 76 lbs. Steering head bearing pre-load is 3.5 to 4.6 lbf. measured with a fish scale. 2003 manual page 15-39 to 15-41.)
 
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Michael, thanks for taking the time to scan and mail the info to me, I will let you know when it arrives.

Threads merged since it all pertains to the same effort.

Larry, seems like you've covered all the major areas but I do have a question about tires... which ones are you running? Some tires to have more of an off-center drop/feel to them than others and even within the same brand/model tires, you have have defects or discrepancies that are unusual... not all of the same tires are identical due to manufacturing issues so I would also try changing those if that's an option for you.
Mellow, this is the 3rd set of the same brand of tires I've been running (Pirelli angel GT).
the reason I started changing and checking stuff was because of the wiggle, not a result of the wiggle.
I'll keep looking.
thanks for the reply.

The steering head bearing torque value changes in different year manuals are a red herring. After the forks are reassembled there is a preload value that will tell you if the steering effort falls within specification. What is the preload value on each fork leg? If the preload value is within range of 2.1 to 3.2 lbs the forks will not fall to either side of center. (SM Version 2003, printed March 2004 with updates through 2006, with no subsequent changes or updates to steering bearing install procedure) You earlier said the forks fall gently to the stop. The forks don't fall to the side with correct preload values. Perhaps the problem is as simple as setting up the steering head bearings correctly.

Changing steering bearings and their effect on steering effort combined with screwing around with both the forks and swing arm at the same time introduces a lot of variables to sort out.

Can you measure and give the precise sag numbers for the forks and rear shock with your weight on the bike? A stock ST1300 with a 220 - 250 lb rider is going to have 50 mm or more of sag in the forks and 30 or more with the standard preload setting of 7 clicks after the adjuster begins to actually work. If your sag is really 38 mm now with the new springs then your steering effort will be noticeably different than before but it should be slower steering, not faster. You can change that by raising the forks in the clamps and setting rear sag to less than 30 mm.

Is there a shop nearby that knows suspensions? Perhaps you need to take it to someone that knows what they are doing.
I have set up the steering head bearings correctly (per two different manuals) twice already, and still the problem persists.
While I agree that a lot of work has been done, this is not what caused this wiggle to appear, but has been done in an attempt to remove it.
Fish scales are not what I would call accurate, at such low readings, but folks who fish probably like that about them LOL.
Despite your junior high school size and weight, and your home brew mix of fork oil, and stock springs with 215mm spacers, I seriously doubt that the settings between our bikes will be close, since I am of average height and weigh approximately 230 pounds in gear.
My sag numbers with my new sonic springs, 7wt. oil, and 125mm depth, and spacers, and my preload adjuster full and working correctly, have me in the "correct" range as far sag goes, with the rear adjuster set around 10-14 clicks.
There is a very knowledgeable suspension shop in the area who has double checked my settings and checked my measurements while I was in gear on the bike, so I guess you could say it has been taken to someone who knows what their doing...still the wiggle persists.
What torque settings are shown in your SM version 2003, printed March 2004 with updates through 2006, with no subsequent changes or updates....lots of words but you forgot to include the information :rofl1:
 

dduelin

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I have set up the steering head bearings correctly (per two different manuals) twice already, and still the problem persists.
While I agree that a lot of work has been done, this is not what caused this wiggle to appear, but has been done in an attempt to remove it.
Fish scales are not what I would call accurate, at such low readings, but folks who fish probably like that about them LOL.
Despite your junior high school size and weight, and your home brew mix of fork oil, and stock springs with 215mm spacers, I seriously doubt that the settings between our bikes will be close, since I am of average height and weigh approximately 230 pounds in gear.
My sag numbers with my new sonic springs, 7wt. oil, and 125mm depth, and spacers, and my preload adjuster full and working correctly, have me in the "correct" range as far sag goes, with the rear adjuster set around 10-14 clicks.
There is a very knowledgeable suspension shop in the area who has double checked my settings and checked my measurements while I was in gear on the bike, so I guess you could say it has been taken to someone who knows what their doing...still the wiggle persists.
What torque settings are shown in your SM version 2003, printed March 2004 with updates through 2006, with no subsequent changes or updates....lots of words but you forgot to include the information :rofl1:
Sorry I did not answer your exact request in my last post - my manual states with oiled threads tighten the bearing adjustment nut to 18 ft lbs. Turn the clamps side to to 5 times, loosen the adjuster nut & retorque to 11 ft lbs. Turn down locking nut finger tight then turn no more than 90 degrees in order to line up the locking tabs. Assemble top bridge and torque top nut to 76 ft lbs.

I left the torque settings out because the definitive specification for steering effort after reassembly is a preload value measured by pull on the fork leg as measured by an accurate pull scale. After you set up the bearings using whatever specs you choose........... then if you did that right the preload is in range. If you did not........the pull value will not be in range. On my bike the forks will not fall to the stop with the preload correctly set. Do your really fall to the stop?

If the description of "fish scale" isn't good enough then use a gunsmiths trigger pull scale. They are very accurate at low values.

I never said the sag settings would be the same for both of us but if you had accurate ones as your bike sits now to share with us then maybe someone could answer your requests for help. These values will help predict how the bike will handle.

If you are still mucking about looking for answers help us help you. Riding on ICE and a wiggle is not very quantifiable.
 
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My manual is a 2011 version, it states same as yours for 03-07 then after 07 they changed that final torque then additional 1/4 turn to just a final torquing of 22 ftlb. Im not sure i understand the little diagram explaining the torque then add degrees - I'm interpreting it as torque to 11ft lbs then add 45 degrees. Manual then goes on to check preload at 2.14-3.2 lbs. I havent replaced my bearing yet but what I can tell you is that I've measured my preload and it is pretty close to a ssteady 3lb pull to keep it moving. The bars will not fall on their own. Seems they want a specific amount of preload on them, maybe you dont have enough if you interpreted the diagram as adding 1/8 of a turn (22.5 degrees) to your 11ft lbs of torque....
 
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Igofar
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Update: my suspension guy does not think its bearings, u joint, sag, preload or setup...
I am going to take it back on saturday and let him ride it and examine the work I have done again.
I am thinking I may have a tire seperation problem. I seem to remember hitting a large pothole a few weeks back and may be thinking I damaged the steel belts. Last night I took my fist and smacked the tire (off the bike) and the whole wheel assembly shuddered and shook?
When my new tires arrive you can bet I will be cutting the old one up for inspection.
 
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