Steering Head Bearing Torque question

Uncle Phil said:

Best simple advice I got for steering head bearings was to think of them like the old front wheel bearings on a car - tight enough there is no wobble, loose enough the wheel (handlebars) will turn freely. ;-)

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Agreed, put the torque wrench away and use good old fashioned trial-and-error until you find a setting you like.

dwalby said:

Agreed, put the torque wrench away and use good old fashioned trial-and-error until you find a setting you like.

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Except the 1300 is already susceptible to a high speed weave. Not sure I'd guess-and-by-golly this job if you like to stretch it out now and then.

dduelin said:

Except the 1300 is already susceptible to a high speed weave. Not sure I'd guess-and-by-golly this job if you like to stretch it out now and then.

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At about 120+ mph sustained with the windshield up any amount (at least that's what I found on the German Autobahn). It only did it after holding the speed, not just running up and back down. If the windshield was all the way down, no problem. I had time and miles to play, so I tried different settings/speed/etc. I figured it had something to do with aerodynamic lift as the front end started getting really light at those speeds after a while. No scientific proof, just my personal experience (and the ST1300 did have the Hondaline Trunk on it). ;-)

dduelin said:

Except the 1300 is already susceptible to a high speed weave. Not sure I'd guess-and-by-golly this job if you like to stretch it out now and then.

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So are you saying you'd feel better if the front end wobbled, even at low speed, but you had the head bearings set precisely to the factory torque spec? Also, its not exactly guesswork, its something that can be felt as you make successive adjustments.

Igofar said:

Update: my suspension guy does not think its bearings, u joint, sag, preload or setup...
I am going to take it back on saturday and let him ride it and examine the work I have done again.
I am thinking I may have a tire seperation problem. I seem to remember hitting a large pothole a few weeks back and may be thinking I damaged the steel belts. Last night I took my fist and smacked the tire (off the bike) and the whole wheel assembly shuddered and shook?
When my new tires arrive you can bet I will be cutting the old one up for inspection.

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Keep us posted

dwalby said:

So are you saying you'd feel better if the front end wobbled, even at low speed, but you had the head bearings set precisely to the factory torque spec? Also, its not exactly guesswork, its something that can be felt as you make successive adjustments.

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No, I didn't say that at all.

I have a bearing related question...following the service manual instructions, when you replace the bearings, you do so with the front end off the ground, forks removed, bars and tree removed, etc.
Then you install the bearings, torque the bearings, back off the bearings, then do the 45 degree more turn, then install the forks, and everything else THEN test the preload with the scale etc.
IF your preload is not within the range provided, the manual instructs you to LOWER the front wheel back down on the GROUND and adjust as needed....
My question? IF your just doing the follow up adjustment, or you just are doing an adjustment for what ever reason, and your forks and everything are still in place, do you leave the weight of the bike on the steering head bearings as you adjust them? Or raise the front end and then do it?
It makes sense to me to have the bike settled on the bearings to get a more realistic adjustment, as I would think the weight of the wheel and forks would be working against you if you tried to check or adjust them with the wheel off the ground.
Opinions, Suggestions, or comments?

Latest development: "I'm a dumb :butt1:"
I overlooked a couple very simple checks...
Mini recap: Hit sharp pothole a couple months back, rim ok, tire showed no signs of damage, so I forgot about it (my bad) Bike started handling strange, best described as feeling out of control when turning or riding on ice or marbles. Steering began feeling vague and heavy, when I pushed down to turn left, the bike tilted left, but wanted to go straight etc. I started my quest to figure it out. Started checking and replacing stuff, wheel bearings, flange bearings, O-rings, dampers, u-joint (was found very sloppy and starting to fail), re-packed swing arm bearings, rebuilt forks, new fork springs and all new internal parts, etc.
steering head bearings and races, etc. As someone pointed out, I've just been all over the place looking for a fix (to those who have been in my garage, REFER TO THE SIGN
I decided to start doing things the old school way, I loosened EVERY part on the front end and jumped up and down on it until everything aligned itself once again (helped a little), I found the fork hardware dry and sounded like an old boat creaking when I removed them (cleaned and oiled all bolts), put everything back together paying very close attention to 1/4's on each fastener and evenly tightened everything back down (helped some more) Have decided to not do anything else until my suspension guy rides it, and double checks everything again. I think the bearings are too tight, which is causing my very heavy steering, and not wanting to turn with bar pressure, and after inspecting the front tire some more (reduced air pressure and started feeling for damage with my thumbs) think I've found a soft spot that runs from side to side, that may be where I hit the pot hole. So....I am looking at 3 issues, fork misalignment (corrected) new replacement tires (ordered) and trying to figure out if my stem bearings are too loose or too tight.
Its hard to use my scale in front as instructed due to the body work, and I'm not sure I would get accurate readings down farther on the fork tubes, or by pulling backwards towards the tank instead.
I will carefully read any and all suggestions in the wealth of information you kind folks keep providing, and will figure this out eventually.
Thanks for all the help and suggestions.
Igofar

Igofar said:

I have a bearing related question...following the service manual instructions, when you replace the bearings, you do so with the front end off the ground, forks removed, bars and tree removed, etc.
Then you install the bearings, torque the bearings, back off the bearings, then do the 45 degree more turn, then install the forks, and everything else THEN test the preload with the scale etc.
IF your preload is not within the range provided, the manual instructs you to LOWER the front wheel back down on the GROUND and adjust as needed....
My question? IF your just doing the follow up adjustment, or you just are doing an adjustment for what ever reason, and your forks and everything are still in place, do you leave the weight of the bike on the steering head bearings as you adjust them? Or raise the front end and then do it?
It makes sense to me to have the bike settled on the bearings to get a more realistic adjustment, as I would think the weight of the wheel and forks would be working against you if you tried to check or adjust them with the wheel off the ground.
Opinions, Suggestions, or comments?

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Just follow the SM procedure the best you can... I feel for you as it can be frustrating. I had to take the top bridge, handlebars, etc., back off 5 or 7 times to finally get the preload pull value in range.

Geometry dictates that it doesn't matter if you pull forward or backwards on the forks. The measurement is the amount of force required to move the forks. I set the forks slightly off center from straight ahead and pulled backwards toward the tank. This allowed me to get a straight pull at 90 degrees to the forks.

Wouldn't the front end be heavier and harder to move if the wheel were banked over to the side and then trying to pull it back into the forward position, rather than being balanced in the center then pulled way from that position? I will try it however, thanks for the suggestion. When you kept trying to adjust yours several times, were you testing it while the handlebars were still off? or were you completely putting everything back together each time to get a correct weight reading? Even Harley's with springer front ends were easier to adjust the fall away than these dang things are due to all the Tupperware being in the way, and the way the bars are attached.
And lastly, were you adjusting the torque with the wheel back down on the ground? or still in the air?
Thanks for your help and suggestions.
Larry

Everything has to be assembled prior to pull value preload measuring - forks, bars, etc. with the weight off off the forks. Honestly I did this over 50,000 miles ago and I just remember pulling on it with a scale over and over this way and that until I was satisfied I got them as close as I could. Then I rode the bike a few hundred or a thousand miles and did it again. The forks simply don't fall over to the stop so they aren't balanced in the center straight ahead position. You just move them a little to one side. You will also find the values different from side to side because of the different cables and wire harnesses. It's not going to be perfect and both sides won't be equal. You just work with it until it's as good as you can get it. I kind of remember I got one side to just under 3 lbs and the other was just over 4 but if I got the latter under 4 the other went close to 2.

Thanks for the information. I just tried it both ways. If the wheel is at full lock it takes about 7-8lbs before it starts moving, however, it I just turn it a little off center I get 3-4 lbs before movement in each direction. I may try once more when I remove the front wheel to mount my new tire when it arrives. I still think it feels a little too tight due to the heavy resistance I get when I try to counter steer but the bike fights to go straight.
Do you happen ro remember if you loosened all the pinch bolts when you adjusted it or just the top ones?
And did you lower the wheel to the ground and have weight on the stem, or adjust it while it was raisex?
Thanks again for taking the time to share information.

Update: used a shortcut removing the bars this time, a thin wall 30mm socket will slip in between the bars without needing to remove them. 2 upper pinch bolts and the stem nut and lifted the bars up and rested them on a yogo mat on the tank etc. This gave me enough room to use my castle socket.
This time I did the 18 ft lbs then loosened it and then started tightening back up to 11ft lbs...then the 45 degrees etc.
The forks now begin to fall off center between 2 1/2 - 3 pounds. I would say that is as good as I will get.
Now I am awaiting for my new tires.

Igofar said:

Update: used a shortcut removing the bars this time, a thin wall 30mm socket will slip in between the bars without needing to remove them. 2 upper pinch bolts and the stem nut and lifted the bars up and rested them on a yogo mat on the tank etc. This gave me enough room to use my castle socket.
This time I did the 18 ft lbs then loosened it and then started tightening back up to 11ft lbs...then the 45 degrees etc.
The forks now begin to fall off center between 2 1/2 - 3 pounds. I would say that is as good as I will get.
Now I am awaiting for my new tires.

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Was just looking at this 2 year old post, wondering if you finally got this sorted. Was it the tires? I'm about to finally replace my stem bearings (with oem caged balls). Do you also remember what size of socket I will need to dremel into a castle socket for locknuts?

32mm.
Do yourself a favor, return the OEM bearings and go with the CBR Bearings tapered kit. Why CBR? They use first rate, Japanese bearings. All Balls uses Chinese in some of their kits.
Why tapered? More surface contact and last longer.
Get yourself a set of bearing race drivers, makes the job a whole lot easier. Make sure, real sure, that the races are driven all the way into the stem.
If you use tapered, preload with 28 ft/lbs, back off to zero then torque to 31 inch/lbs. This worked fine for me. No play, very smooth.

jmcarruth said:

32mm.
Do yourself a favor, return the OEM bearings and go with the CBR Bearings tapered kit. Why CBR? They use first rate, Japanese bearings. All Balls uses Chinese in some of their kits.
Why tapered? More surface contact and last longer.
Get yourself a set of bearing race drivers, makes the job a whole lot easier. Make sure, real sure, that the races are driven all the way into the stem.
If you use tapered, preload with 28 ft/lbs, back off to zero then torque to 31 inch/lbs. This worked fine for me. No play, very smooth.

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The original caged ball bearings lasted just short of 100,000 miles in my 2005. The All Balls I installed then have nearly 70,000 miles. Would another brand do any better and would that make a difference in longevity?

dduelin said:

The original caged ball bearings lasted just short of 100,000 miles in my 2005. The All Balls I installed then have nearly 70,000 miles. Would another brand do any better and would that make a difference in longevity?

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I have had bad experiences with Chinese bearings in the wheels and driven hub. Did not want to chance it in the steering head.

jmcarruth said:

I have had bad experiences with Chinese bearings in the wheels and driven hub. Did not want to chance it in the steering head.

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The OEM driven spline bearings that go bad so soon are Japanese bearings. Maybe Chinese ones would last longer.

Hey thanks for all the info guys I will pick up a cheap 32 mm deep socket to dremel out. Just got the forks out and felt the bearings just turning the stem without weight of all components on it - wow they are really notchy most of the way through, feel horrible. I probably shouldn't have waited so long to get at this. I thought about the tapered bearing route too, but then again I did get 90,000 miles out of the factory bearings, so I figure that's not too bad. I'll bet if they were cleaned and repacked a long time back they might still be good.

dduelin said:

The OEM driven spline bearings that go bad so soon are Japanese bearings. Maybe Chinese ones would last longer.

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I must be one of the lucky ones because I have pretty been pretty good about checking these driven flange along with all the wheel bearings when I change tires and have yet to feel any roughness. I wonder why so many seem to be having problems with them?

gsforster said:

I must be one of the lucky ones because I have pretty been pretty good about checking these driven flange along with all the wheel bearings when I change tires and have yet to feel any roughness. I wonder why so many seem to be having problems with them?

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I didn't have to change my driven spline bearings until 96,000 miles. The PEER 6905RS bearings I installed are still good after about 70,000 miles, checked every time the wheels is off. At the same time [96k] I replaced the steering head bearings. Like you I only found they needed replacement when I had the front wheel removed and noticed without the mass of the wheel the forks self-centered in a tiny notch. The notch was not apparent with the fork and wheel assembled so I caught the bearings early. I used an All Balls tapered bearing kit. I considered OEM ball bearings but I knew I could easily set up tapered bearings and wasn't sure I could accurately set up the caged ball bearings which are more fussy than tapered so I went with tapered rollers.