ST1100 'Wooden' brakes

Uncle Phil said:

Mr. Wooster - IMHO,

:bsflag:

- The ABSII pads have very defined ridges as compared to the standard pads which only have grooves. The ABSII pads are much more aggressive because they have better 'bite'. This is not based on 'books' and internet research but on actual experience. ;-)

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Well...From what I have read ...... If two calipers ( one with two pistons and the other with three pistons ) , have the same total piston area , the three piston caliper should work better. The reason is there are more "leading edges " with the three pistons. Same goes for a single piston vs. two piston calipers with the same total piston area.

That's the theory, just sayin ...... so theory and Phil agree. Or Phil and theory agree, whichever way you want to think about it.

Jim Van said:

That's the theory, just sayin ...... so theory and Phil agree. Or Phil and theory agree, whichever way you want to think about it.

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Jim - And actual experience of over 250,000 miles agree also ... I can bring either one of my ST1100 ABSII bikes to a quick, complete and orderly stop with only two fingers on the front brake lever. On my 97 standard which has stainless steel lines, it takes a hand full of lever. George Catt was a bit skeptical when I told him about the difference - until he got an ABSII model. ;-)

Phil :

You got me thinking ( watch out !! ). I usually use all four fingers when I apply my non-ABS brakes. So today, I took a ride and checked out how well I could stop my bike from 65 mph using only two fingers.

I am happy to report that I am pleasantly surprised to find out that I can haul my bike down from 65 mph very quickly by using only two fingers. I attribute this to two factors ; 1.) The Volar Kevlar brake pads I have installed ( front & rear set for $16 w/shipping ) and 2.) Recently rebuilt front & rear calipers.

These ST1100 are great bikes !! And plenty of good used parts available on EBay.

Jim - As soon as I wear out all three of my ST1100s, I'll think about getting something else ...

Phil :

I know you are joshing me, because with three ST1100's , you will wear-out before all three ST1100's do.

Jim Van said:

Phil :

I know you are joshing me, because with three ST1100's , you will wear-out before all three ST1100's do.

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Jim - Since I probably have more major 'replacement' parts in my body than my ST1100s, I have no doubt that you are correct ...

However correct Jim is, Phil, and however your STs stop, I trust you'll never be replaced.



Styles

Styles said:

However correct Jim is, Phil, and however your STs stop, I trust you'll never be replaced. Styles

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That is very kind of you. As my old preacher used to say 'If it don't get above my knees, I'll be alright'. ;-)

Ya, but I hear the knees go first and then it works it's way up from there ..............

Most Standard ST1100 brakes work pretty well for not having any Servos, Pumps or controll modules assisting them.
Don't ever remember them being unresponsive or feeling like "Wood"
If your looking for race proven, track quality brakes, it's the wrong bike anyway.
Go get a GSXR750. LOL

I also have found that braking at high speed with a non abs st1100 the brakes are fairly worthless until you get down below triple digits. On these old bikes there are really only a couple of ways to improve braking to modern standards. Buy a newer bike or upgrade your calipers and maybe master cylinder. The non abs already has 315 mm disks so they should be okay. The next is more pistons on the calipers. I am currently doing an upgrade on my 1976 CB750 to 4 piston calipers from 2 piston calipers similar to the ST1100 and bigger disks, in fact they are ST disks 315 mm. The ST1100 is 300 pound heavier than my CB. Maybe 6 piston calipers would be the choice there.

I think the upgrade would be fairly straight forward if not for the anti-dive mechanism. Also with 6 piston brakes you would need a master upgrade 19mm radial master, not axial like that is on there now.

The are many pairs of GSXR 6 piston calipers on eBay, brand of Tokico.

I think that this would be an interesting upgrade for these big bikes.. I no longer have my two to try this out on.

Funny thing after I did the post I found this. Look what someone has already done.

Thanks, Grabcon, for helping me picture another farkle.



Styles

Styles, You are welcome, but think of this farkle as a safety upgrade.. I think if I still had my 1991 ST1100 I might do this. I think for a few hundred bucks that this is worth more than the effort and money. I know you can get all the parts but the stainless steel braided lines for 2 hundred bucks. Maybe be 50 buck in 6061 aluminum plate for the mounting bracket and you are good to go with a little bit of design and some time.

Now you would be able to stop that freight train.

Your encouragement's welcome, Grabcon. Though I've no time now, at least I've SS lines already.



Styles

Several posters here seem to want to compare the standard, non-ABS brakes with the ABS II brakes. So, can we list the differences that might affect the overall stopping ability of those two ST1100s?
Compared to a non-ABS, an ABS II bike has:

Wider front tire
Wider front wheel
Different front rotors
Different OEM pad materials, front and rear, right?
Different OEM pad shape throughout (ridges instead of mere grooves, according to one poster)
Three piston front calipers, instead of two piston (but with some debate about full usage of the third pistons)
Bigger fork tubes
Stronger fork brace (assumed)
Bigger triple clamp for the fork tubes
Different rear rotor
Three piston rear caliper, instead of two pistons,
ABS at both ends (which generally tends to make ones braking more carefree and aggressive) and
Linked or combined brakes in both directions (which generally prevents application of the rear brake without the front).

The non-ABS OEM pads seem to date from 1987, judging from the front pad product code of ML7.
And at least one of the non-ABS, front caliper bodies seems to date from 1988, judging from the MM Hurricane product code that I've seen on one of my early, non-ABS front calipers. (For that, see Question 1 in a nearby thread on this page:
https://www.st-owners.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-139844.html , which has yet to be completed.)

Observed differences in overall braking feel and/or performance can be due to a lot more than a single item in the above list, such as caliper piston count. (And every item in the list tends to up the price of the bike, which was US $2500 higher in 1996.)
Finally, for some of us, Honda's linking of the pedal to the front brakes causes us to greatly prefer ABS I or non-ABS to ABS II even if a stronger pull on the lever is needed.

So what? Have you ever ridden an ABSII ST1100 for any reasonable distance (more than a test ride) so you can balance your 'educated' facts with experience? Methinks you spend too much time accumulating data to regurgitate instead of accumulating miles and experience. If I am going to war, I want to be with the fellers that shot the guns, not the ones who read a book about shooting the guns. And to quote a well known book 'Of making of many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh'. ;-)

My experience with riding both versions of the same era ('96 ABS, '97 non-ABS) is if all you do is grab the front brake, the difference is huge. At that time I was used to riding sportbikes that would unweight (or even lift) the rear wheel to the point that using the rear brake wasn't very effective, so I was used to a front brake only stopping style. So to me the ABSII was the winner by a wide margin on my first test rides. But as fate would have it, the used '96 I rode had 11,000 miles and big headshake, and cost more, so I passed, and got a '97 non-ABS instead because I found one 2 months old with 1200 miles on it. After riding the '97 for a while and getting used to using both the front and rear brakes together, I suspect the differences are not as significant, but I haven't ridden an ABS II since then to do a more accurate seat-of-the-pants comparison. Martin Brunner will tell you that a well-ridden non-ABS can be stopped in a surprisingly short distance, but that's in a controlled test environment. In a panic stop I suspect the ABS II would stop quicker with less effort.

Speaking of Martin Brunner, where is he?? Haven't seen him posting for a number of days. Must be out riding the Alps??

Bush said:

Speaking of Martin Brunner, where is he?? Haven't seen him posting for a number of days. Must be out riding the Alps??

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Ahh, it must be tough to have to do that on a regular basis ... ;-) Nothing compares over here to the roads over there in the Alps!

dwalby said:

After riding the '97 for a while and getting used to using both the front and rear brakes together, I suspect the differences are not as significant, but I haven't ridden an ABS II since then to do a more accurate seat-of-the-pants comparison. Martin Brunner will tell you that a well-ridden non-ABS can be stopped in a surprisingly short distance, but that's in a controlled test environment. In a panic stop I suspect the ABS II would stop quicker with less effort.

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My experience is that I usually ride a different ST1100 every day to work so it's ABSII for two days and a standard for one day - and I have done this for years. So my comments are based on frequent exposures in all sorts of traffic, etc, on both types of ST1100s. I also feel pretty certain that an 'expert' rider could probably bring both versions to a complete stop in about the same distance - and never kick in the ABS - in a controlled environment. But unfortunately for the rest of us poor mortals, we're not 'expert' and it sure ain't a 'controlled environment'! ;-) The better ABSII pads and extra piston give a better 'bite' and the pad differences are quite interesting when you hold one set of pads next to the other (see below). You will also notice that the front ABSII pads (the bottom left ones) are 'longer' and thus give a more braking contact surface in addition to the more aggressive pad surface. And the rear ABSII pads (the top left ones) are also longer and have the more aggressive pad surface.

As far as ABS goes, it just keeps you from locking up the brakes which insures that you are rolling instead of sliding. An 'expert' would not lock the brakes unless he/she intended to do it. An 'expert' can come to a complete orderly stop while leaned over - far above what this mortal can do. ;-) So I fear when the rest of us calculate that we do not have enough stopping distance from a fixed object, we will grab all the brakes we can - and more than we intended because our muscles will be tight and full of adrenalin (something you don't experience when you practice braking) - and a sliding we will go. If the rear locks, it gets pretty ugly - the backend tends to slide out to the left and then when you let off, the ST suddenly and forcefully stands straight up as it regains traction. This has propelled more than one ST1100 rider right off the side of the road. ;-) That is why I call ABS - A(utomatic) B(utt) S(aver). In over a quarter of a million miles of riding ST1100s, I have kicked on the ABS maybe twice - once was in a leaned over situation when the front wheel hit a round rock and funny things happened. My view is I want all the 'edge' I can when riding - that's why I ride in full kit, wear a helmet, practice techniques, study books, keep my bikes in top shape, etc. To me, an ABS system is just one more safety feature in my favor.