All of a sudden won't start - High pitch whine but won't crank.

Where in NJ are you I am in Ledgewood mine sat for about a month and was the same when I tried to start it make sure the battery is charged full throttle when you crank mine coughed and backfired a bit but did start I then ran seafoam and its been fine ever since. Keep at it if you need some help PM me I will see what I can do.

http://www.starbrite.com/item/star-tron-gasoline-fuel-additive?category_id=685

I HIGHLY recommend this stuff. Under $10 at Walmart treats 128 gallons. Look at the boating section, not automotive.

Just checked my snowblower out, still 1 pull starts at 6 months with Startron treated gas.

I'm running it in cars, motorcycles, lawn tractor, 2 stroke mix for all my equipment. Everything.

I hate ethanol!

It would take a lot more than one stuck valve out of 16 to prevent it from starting. It might not run well but it would start immediately on 3 or even 2 cylinders. Of course I don't know myself but I believe it is a fuel supply issue.

970mike said:

Here is an article on the problems with today's fuel http://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/f-ethanol?utm_source=facebook&utm_content=stream&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=boosted-posts&utm_term=f-ethanol

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The AMA has been taking up this fight: http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/rights/amafuelforthought.aspx

Keith

dduelin said:

It would take a lot more than one stuck valve out of 16 to prevent it from starting. It might not run well but it would start immediately on 3 or even 2 cylinders. Of course I don't know myself but I believe it is a fuel supply issue.

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This was a huge issue a couple of years ago with ethanol fuel mixes not being compatible with various fuel additives that the fuel supplier/ distributor was using. This cause big issues with not only St1300 engines but several makes of automobiles. The additives would cause a very sticky residue to form on valve stems and inside valve guides and the valves would not seat completely and most if not all cylinders would lose compression. This usually occurred after running this bad fuel and the engine was stopped and cooled completely down. Some people could get the engine started after using some carb cleaner and by spraying it down the intake or with enough cranking would generate enough heat and loosen the valves up enough to begin firing again. Once the engine started for a minute the heat generated would loosen the valves up and the engines would run fine. Usually some fuel cleaner additive and some new fuel would prevent this from happening again. I haven't heard of this for a while as the additive companies have reformulated their products to prevent the incompatibility with ethanol fuels.

Dan

bdalameda said:

This was a huge issue a couple of years ago with ethanol fuel mixes not being compatible with various fuel additives that the fuel supplier/ distributor was using. This cause big issues with not only St1300 engines but several makes of automobiles. The additives would cause a very sticky residue to form on valve stems and inside valve guides and the valves would not seat completely and most if not all cylinders would lose compression. This usually occurred after running this bad fuel and the engine was stopped and cooled completely down. Some people could get the engine started after using some carb cleaner and by spraying it down the intake or with enough cranking would generate enough heat and loosen the valves up enough to begin firing again. Once the engine started for a minute the heat generated would loosen the valves up and the engines would run fine. Usually some fuel cleaner additive and some new fuel would prevent this from happening again. I haven't heard of this for a while as the additive companies have reformulated their products to prevent the incompatibility with ethanol fuels.

Dan

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That doesn't make a lot of sense but I did say that I don't know.

The first valve that stuck open would be hit with the piston crown in an interference engine like the ST1300. Why don't stuck valves hit pistons during the first revolution?

dduelin said:

That doesn't make a lot of sense but I did say that I don't know.

The first valve that stuck open would be hit with the piston crown in an interference engine like the ST1300. Why don't stuck valves hit pistons during the first revolution?

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The problem isn't that the valves stick in the fully open position but that they don't quite fully seat enough to allow compression to build. They are not held open enough for the pistons to make contact just gummed up enough not to fully close and seal.

Oh right. So they only hit the piston crown a little bit? Doesn't the piston shove the valve loose? How much clearance does the valve/piston have? Just the right amount apparently each and every time.

All it takes is a few thousandths of an inch of the valve being held open to keep the engine from starting. The valves will not hit the piston and the engine won't start.

Here is a quote from the Ethanol Producers Magazine relating to this issue:

Intake Valve Sticking
Intake valve sticking is a possible, unintended consequence of using poorly formulated gasoline additives in gasoline. This occurs when some of the additive builds up in the annular space between the intake valve stem and the valve guide in the cylinder head. At low temperatures, any build-up in this area becomes more viscous and inhibits valve movement. Under extreme conditions, the valve spring cannot close the intake valve, resulting in a loss of compression. Consequently, the engine doesn't start.

Modern gasoline additives are formulated to prevent this problem in normal gasoline. However, recent research has shown that ethanol can make intake valve sticking even more severe and confirms the need to test gasoline additives in the full range of fuels in which they will be used, including the low-level ethanol blends widely available in the U.S. market. More importantly, in the more extreme case of E85, it points out the need for specific additives for E85 that are designed to treat the problems without causing unwanted side effects, such as intake valve sticking.

You guys are awesome and geniuses! It started after about a dozen tries of 10 sec cranks. I took the battery out of my truck as an auxiliary, worked great. Thanks so much, saved me from a lot of grief and taking things apart that I didn't need to. I had some Techron so I put it in before I started messing with it today. Once it started I let it warm up, hopefully getting that Techron in there and cleaning things up a little. I'll get some fresh gas tomorrow and put in some more cleaner, I'll try the Sea Foam. Thanks again!!! :bow1:

https://youtu.be/JxlsEINf1dw

anybody know why this seems to be an issue with 1300s, but not 1100s ??? At least I seem to notice its always 1300s with the issue, never heard about it with 1100s.

I think it is more common with the ST1300 is because the ST1300 is fuel injected and the fuel spray pattern from the injector is directed more towards the intake valves. The ST1100 is carbureted and the fuel is atomized inside the carb as it flows down into the intake. This may prevent the buildup from occurring. Just a guess on my part.

That sweeeet sound!

Ironically, I just experienced this situation last weekend. I eventually got it started and ran a tank of Techron though the ST. It seems fine now.

Glad you got it running. Now it looks like it is time to bleed that dirty clutch fluid.

970mike said:

Glad you got it running. Now it looks like it is time to bleed that dirty clutch fluid.

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at least that's an easy fix.

dduelin said:

It would take a lot more than one stuck valve out of 16 to prevent it from starting. It might not run well but it would start immediately on 3 or even 2 cylinders.

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Different issue last fall, but they will run on 2 cylinders. I had a coil wire disconnected on the left side. Bike ran, idled, but low on power was my problem. Guy Asmus suggested the coil. No start indicates more than 2 cylinders with open valves based on what I had.

The question is answered now stickman, but I though I'd chime in anyway.

Your video in post #12 is classic of stuck-open valves. Mine sounds exactly like that (except your battery might be weak given the slower turnover than I'm used to hearing).

In my experience none (or sometimes one) of the cylinders make compression due to slightly-stuck-open valves. The fuel is burning, but there's no compression and therefore no power. The valves are only slightly stuck open--the pistons do not hit the valves as the engine is being turned over.

Mine can be a bear to start after it has sat for weeks, if the lousy ethanol Fuel blend ran though on the prior tank was not treated. It can take quite a bit of cranking before it develops compression and begins to fire on one then two (assisted by starter motor), then eventually three and four cylinders (usually runs without starter motor at that point). Once a cylinder develops compression, in a handful of seconds other cylinders will develop compression and the engine then runs normally. It seems it takes a bit of mechanical movement in the sticky valve guides before it loosens enough to fully close the valves for the compression cycle.

It was pretty distressing [to me] when I experience that the first couple times, before I learned what the issue was and how to avoid it. I now frequently run fuel treatment, and also have learned the evening before (and/or morning of) a ride, I go cycle the key and fuel pump a couple times (NOT turning over the engine). A little bit of fresh fuel against the valves seems to help to 'loosen' the goo sticking the valve in the guides, and then it will start almost immediately upon pressing the starter button.

How does cycling the fuel pump without turning over the engine get fuel against the valves? The injectors do not spray fuel unless the ECU commands it based on crankshaft position. If the crank is stationary no injector can spray.

The more this theory is explained the more holes are in it. Maybe cycling the pump primes the fuel rail which loses pressure in storage and prevents starting.

Has anyone taken compression readings when this happens?

dduelin said:

How does cycling the fuel pump without turning over the engine get fuel against the valves? The injectors do not spray fuel unless the ECU commands it based on crankshaft position. If the crank is stationary no injector can spray.

The more this theory is explained the more holes are in it. Maybe cycling the pump primes the fuel rail which loses pressure in storage and prevents starting.

Has anyone taken compression readings when this happens?

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+1 here - the injectors don't spray fuel if the crank isn't spinning. If they did, the result would be catastrophic! I would also be curious to know if anyone has tried to do a compression test when this happens. Doing one on a stone-cold engine won't give real accurate results, but it would at least reveal any cylinders with one or more valves failing to seat.