Clutch noise

I posted this not long ago and got a couple of suggestions (see below). The noise has remained and I've refined my description here. I also took the bike to my local dealer (I think they are pretty good, have had good reports from friends who use them, and they have a pretty good reputation in general). I had them do some minor maintenance items and diagnose this problem. And this is what they said.

The noise: After downshifting from 5th to 1st then to neutral on approaching a light (usually 5th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 1st, neut all the way down w/ clutch pulled in, Not 5 to 4th, engage clutch, slow, shift down to 3rd and engage clutch, etc.) I wait for the light to change. Upon clutching, shifting to 1st, and engaging the clutch, there is a 'clank' that I can not only hear but feel - usually when the clutch lever is almost all the way released. This happens after about 5 miles of stop and go traffic or when the bike is thoroughly warmed up after a run on the highway. It happens almost every time after an extended ride on the highway, and I've only recently noticed it also occasionally between 4th and 5th gears. The sound is like the center stand slapping the underside of the engine.

Suggestions last time I posted this were a bad u-joint, the smc, or a loose shifter linkage.

My bike is a 2010, 27,000 miles on the clock.

I took the bike to my dealer for some minor work and diagnosis of the problem. He said they think it is a clutch spring that is getting weaker and allowing the assembly to make noise as it is engaged.

I do not think it is any of the originally suggested items because the symptom does not fit what I know about u-joints, the smc, and the shifter linkage is not obviously loose. I read the shop manual and the clutch looks to me to be similar to the old Triumph and Guzzi clutches that I have had apart (though it is not very easy to reach). I don't see any one spring that might make the noise, but if two adjacent springs were weaker, then the clutch could hang up and perhaps clunk when the sticking is released. I suppose it could also be a transmission problem, but the dealer's mechanic leans toward the clutch.

Any comments, ideas, or diagnoses that I can run by the dealer? I plan to take the shop manual with me when I pick up the bike Monday and ask him loads of questions. They suggested doing the work at the end of the season since it was not serious and poses no immediate danger to damage to the bike now. I have to decide if I want to undertake this job or remodel a bathroom this winter and work my day job. Not sure I can handle all these tasks along with the usual end of the year routine maintenance and accessorizing of the bike and maintaining our car and truck.

Oh yeah, he said it would take about 4 hours (shop hours) plus parts. My guesstimate is $300 labor + 100 parts + tax etc or about 500. I could always strip the fairing off and do that myself to save some money. Were I to do it, I know it would take double that in straight labor plus down time ordering parts, soliciting advice here, etc..... Been there done that.

My question is, what if you downshift normally, letting the clutch out between each gear change. Does it still do it when shifting this way? It is hard to answer since I have never shifted all gears at once. It sounds like maybe one of the gears in the tranny might not have fully engaged. I sometimes get a bang like you describe when I don't get a complete throw on the shift lever when shifting from 1st to 2nd. Also some oils make shifting easier and quieter and smoother, maybe try some Delo 400 LE.

I would try changing the oil to Dell and flushing the clutch to see if that helps before I would have the dealership start running up a tab.
What type shoes or boots do you wear? You may not be reloading the lever enough etc.

woodybelle said:

My question is, what if you downshift normally, letting the clutch out between each gear change. Does it still do it when shifting this way? Also some oils make shifting easier and quieter and smoother, maybe try some Delo 400 LE.

Click to expand...

In a recent ride in the city (stop and go) that was 5 miles one way, (total of about 15) I did use the engine to brake the bike, and I did get the clunk when I started up. The noise does not happen every time - which is why I, too, am at least a little suspicious of the diagnosis and think it might be transmission related.

Igofar said:

I would try changing the oil to Dell and flushing the clutch to see if that helps before I would have the dealership start running up a tab.
What type shoes or boots do you wear? You may not be reloading the lever enough etc.

Click to expand...

I'm running Honda brand motor oil (as recommended by the owner's manual) this year. Last year I ran Rotella 6. Changed because when I went to buy oil, Walmart had the Rotella at nearly the same price as Honda's and I changed for emotional reasons (no nagging worries did I do the right thing running the Shell). I wear BMW motorcycle boots - their cheaper version - not the full touring ones that cost 370. They seem to work ok and I don't miss shifts. Lol, I do sometimes overshoot the neutral tho at a stoplight.

SMSW said:

Lol, I do sometimes overshoot the neutral tho at a stoplight

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Personally I'd never leave the bike in neutral while riding....if you need to move fast out of someone's way it's probably too late if you have to shift into gear....have you done a clutch fluid replacement and bleed? Good luck.........ff

flyfisher said:

Personally I'd never leave the bike in neutral while riding....if you need to move fast out of someone's way it's probably too late if you have to shift into gear....have you done a clutch fluid replacement and bleed? Good luck.........ff

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I do both. In traffic I sometimes keep clutch in and 1st engaged. Around here, tho, we have some very long lights - in excess of 2 minutes. And I don't want a lot of wear on the clutch holding it in unless I need it. When traffic is very light, I neutral it. And I rarely ride around here (Cleveland suburbs) because the soccer moms here scare the living daylights out of me when I'm in my car. On the bike? Forget it. Most of my riding is when I go to rallies. But I have to say, the majority of the time the bike is in neutral at stoplights. I understand the pros and cons of this, but my experience has been that MOST of the time, there is no place to go should some idiot approach looking like he/she is not going to stop. Shooting out into the intersection or in the path of another car does not seem like a solution to me. My choice. Ymmv.

Clutch and brakes are freshly bled (book says every 2 years, so that's what I did). Makes no difference to the noise.

You have anybody near you with an ST to compare?
I'm kinda doubting a clutch spring issue.

You can DIY. Little tedious cleaning the old gasket of the clutch cover a/o case. The eco safe gasket remover goop is worthless. Get the methylene chloride type.

Drain fluids. Pull front wheel makes it easier to work. Pull radiator, water pump cover, clutch cover. Pulling the disks and plates springs is straight forward.

tip, Crack the cover then put a ruler etc behind the clutch cover to hold the water pump drive gear in place before your fully slide the cover off. The gear wants to ride out with the water pump fall off and drop the chain.
As long as you're there, jam something between the clutch basket gear and primary drive gear and torque the bolt that holds the crank shaft drive gear on.

If it's just the springs pre order parts (off the top of my head).
2x water pipe dowel o-rings.
case gasket
water pump gasket
6 springs
oil
coolant
some 3bond, honda bond, or permatex ultra gray etc for a thin film at the case half seem and as needed to hold the gasket and water pump o-ring in place for reassembly.

SMSW said:

I wait for the light to change. Upon clutching, shifting to 1st, and engaging the clutch, there is a 'clank' that I can not only hear but feel - usually when the clutch lever is almost all the way released. This happens after about 5 miles of stop and go traffic or when the bike is thoroughly warmed up after a run on the highway. It happens almost every time after an extended ride on the highway, and I've only recently noticed it also occasionally between 4th and 5th gears. The sound is like the center stand slapping the underside of the engine.

Suggestions last time I posted this were a bad u-joint, the smc, or a loose shifter linkage.

My bike is a 2010, 27,000 miles on the clock.

I took the bike to my dealer for some minor work and diagnosis of the problem. He said they think it is a clutch spring that is getting weaker and allowing the assembly to make noise as it is engaged.

I do not think it is any of the originally suggested items because the symptom does not fit what I know about u-joints, the smc, and the shifter linkage is not obviously loose.

Click to expand...

After reviewing the factory service manual and your clank symptom write up I would have to say I need more information. When you say the noise happens when the clutch is almost all the way released does that mean you are not moving when it clanks or does it clank when you just begin to move forward? Does the clank only happen when the ST1300 is warmed up or always when letting out the clutch in first gear? Does it jerk forward in first gear or is there only the clank noise? Can you recreate the clank when the bike is warmed up and on the center stand?

There is a clutch lifter rod in the assembly and bearings and a clutch guide and a piston in the slave cylinder but more information/symptoms (such as a jerking movement, clutch slipping, etc) in addition to the clanking would be helpful.

I am also leaning towards a bad U-Joint - maybe only on one axis - and the U-joint is hitting the inside of the swingarm at start up. Several reasons lead me to this. First, never heard of a clutch problem on a low mile ST1300 - not to say this is not a first. Second, the U-Joint is a known problem on a very few ST1300's. Third, that you mention the sound is now happening in other gears when moving. Fourth, a clank is a loud sound of two heavy metals impacting such as a U-Joint and swing arm.

See below (post 30 will give you the sound of a failing U-Joint on video):

https://www.st-owners.com/forums/showthread.php?94962-U-Joint-Pre-Failure-Indicator&highlight=U-joint

st1300r said:

You have anybody near you with an ST to compare?

As long as you're there, jam something between the clutch basket gear and primary drive gear and torque the bolt that holds the crank shaft drive gear on.

Click to expand...

There are some guys nearby, but the bike did not make the noise last year.

Why torque the crankshaft drive gear bolt? Just preventative medicine?

Igofar said:

I would try changing the oil to Dell and flushing the clutch to see if that helps before I would have the dealership start running up a tab.
What type shoes or boots do you wear? You may not be reloading the lever enough etc.

Click to expand...

+1

And go out and ride it like you stole it, and break up any build up you have in that clutch. These bikes need to be let loose every now and then !!!

T

RCS said:

After reviewing the factory service manual and your clank symptom write up I would have to say I need more information. When you say the noise happens when the clutch is almost all the way released does that mean you are not moving when it clanks or does it clank when you just begin to move forward? Does the clank only happen when the ST1300 is warmed up or always when letting out the clutch in first gear? Does it jerk forward in first gear or is there only the clank noise? Can you recreate the clank when the bike is warmed up and on the center stand?

There is a clutch lifter rod in the assembly and bearings and a clutch guide and a piston in the slave cylinder but more information/symptoms (such as a jerking movement, clutch slipping, etc) in addition to the clanking would be helpful.

I am also leaning towards a bad U-Joint - maybe only on one axis - and the U-joint is hitting the inside of the swingarm at start up. Several reasons lead me to this. First, never heard of a clutch problem on a low mile ST1300 - not to say this is not a first. Second, the U-Joint is a known problem on a very few ST1300's. Third, that you mention the sound is now happening in other gears when moving. Fourth, a clank is a loud sound of two heavy metals impacting such as a U-Joint and swing arm.

See below (post 30 will give you the sound of a failing U-Joint on video):

https://www.st-owners.com/forums/showthread.php?94962-U-Joint-Pre-Failure-Indicator&highlight=U-joint

Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply.
All this is from memory - I'll ride the bike today and update here this afternoon if anything is wrong.
1. The noise happens once I'm rolling. Clutch lever is part way out and the clutch must be engaged or almost fully engaged.
2. The noise happens when things are warmed up. It is most obvious after a prolonged ride. Since I mostly just hop on the freeway and ride to a destination, the noise appears only miles down the road - at a gas stop or destination. I do not hear it on the mile or two ride to the highway.
3. Bike moves forward smoothly. Then the clank. No jerk as if the clutch was hanging up.
4. Never tried the freewheeling on the center stand. I will this afternoon.
5. I noticed this almost exclusively on startup. Lately I heard it between 4th and 5th while moving.

See Next Post

Ok, a few amendments to what I wrote in #11. I just got the bike back from the dealer. They did some minor maintenance and gave me their diagnosis.

1. The noise appears once the clutch is engaged.
2. The bike does not have to be warmed up.
3. Engaging the clutch sloooowly and gently giving it throttle yields no noise.
4. Engaging the clutch and pouring on power will give you the 'clunk'.
5. The mechanic checked the swingarm and it is tight. He turned the rear wheel to check the U-joint - he thought that was fine. No play in swing arm or U-j.
6. I thought the noise came from under the rider - I describe it as the center stand is swinging up. He thought it came from forward/center part of motor.

He (mechanic) leans toward the Damper Cam/spring on the Primary Damper Shaft. He thinks the spring (see pics below) is weak allowing the cam to ride up on the shoulder.

View attachment 167830
View attachment 167831
View attachment 167832

Left field....does the rear shock mount have any play? Not much else under seat/rider I can think of that could "clank" 2cents/Monday morning quarterback......good luck......ff

Looked at the Factory Service Manual and reviewed the damper shaft, spring, damper lifter, and damper cam. In my opinion none of those items will produce a clunk sound that can be heard while riding the motorcycle.

I am back to the U-Joint slamming against the inside of the swing arm. The ST1300 is a direct drive motorcycle so that when the clutch engages the power goes directly and immediately to the back wheel. Before it gets to the back wheel it has to go through the U-Joint. The force of that power could push a failing U-joint against the inside of the swing arm causing a clunk sound.

Here is a test to recreate the clunk sound to determine if it is the U-Joint. Have a friend that is an excellent rider sit on your ST1300 on the center stand, engine running, and holding down the rear brake firmly. Put a $20 stethoscope (available at an auto parts store) on the swing arm where the u-joint resides. Have your friend put the motorcycle in gear and slowly release the clutch to duplicate the power load of a start. Listen for the U-joint to see if it hits the inside of the swing arm. Repeat a few times to confirm. If you want to try this without a stethoscope you can put your hand or ear on the outer side of the swing arm directly above the U-joint.

If the U-joint is damaged to the point it is hitting the swing arm you will know it and feel it with every turn of the shaft. It won't be a once in a while thing. Maybe but....

I was leaning toward the shaft damper but these "it makes a funny noise" threads are usually an Internet rabbit hole and there's no way to really tell symptoms and fixes from a keyboard. Sorry I can't be more helpful.

RCS said:

If you want to try this without a stethoscope you can put your hand or ear on the outer side of the swing arm directly above the U-joint.

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Or use a screw driver blade on the swing arm and your ear on the handle of the screw driver. It does work well.

dduelin said:

If the U-joint is damaged to the point it is hitting the swing arm you will know it and feel it with every turn of the shaft. It won't be a once in a while thing.

Click to expand...

Not necessarily and easy to test.

flyfisher said:

Left field....does the rear shock mount have any play? Not much else under seat/rider I can think of that could "clank" 2cents/Monday morning quarterback......good luck......ff

Click to expand...

I will have to check this. But when I refilled the preload adjuster last winter, everything down there seemed tight.

RCS said:

Looked at the Factory Service Manual and reviewed the damper shaft, spring, damper lifter, and damper cam. In my opinion none of those items will produce a clunk sound that can be heard while riding the motorcycle.

I am back to the U-Joint slamming against the inside of the swing arm. The ST1300 is a direct drive motorcycle so that when the clutch engages the power goes directly and immediately to the back wheel. Before it gets to the back wheel it has to go through the U-Joint. The force of that power could push a failing U-joint against the inside of the swing arm causing a clunk sound.

Here is a test to recreate the clunk sound to determine if it is the U-Joint. Have a friend that is an excellent rider sit on your ST1300 on the center stand, engine running, and holding down the rear brake firmly. Put a $20 stethoscope (available at an auto parts store) on the swing arm where the u-joint resides. Have your friend put the motorcycle in gear and slowly release the clutch to duplicate the power load of a start. Listen for the U-joint to see if it hits the inside of the swing arm. Repeat a few times to confirm. If you want to try this without a stethoscope you can put your hand or ear on the outer side of the swing arm directly above the U-joint.

Click to expand...

This sounds like a good idea to nail down whether it is the u-joint or not. I will have to scare up someone to give me a hand on this one. I will try this one this weekend.

dduelin said:

If the U-joint is damaged to the point it is hitting the swing arm you will know it and feel it with every turn of the shaft. It won't be a once in a while thing. Maybe but....

I was leaning toward the shaft damper but these "it makes a funny noise" threads are usually an Internet rabbit hole and there's no way to really tell symptoms and fixes from a keyboard. Sorry I can't be more helpful.

Click to expand...

Getting a friend to spin the rear wheel when the bike is on the center stand is an easy test to either eliminate the u-joint or nail it as the culprit. The mechanic at the dealer (we talked for about 15 min) went over everything he had done. I was impressed by how thorough he had been. He checked the swing arm - tried to wiggle it and tried to pry it to see if there was any play. None. He rotated the rear wheel by hand and did not think the u-j was the issue. He also said he felt (as I did) that the noise was coming from the center-forward part of the engine. Since the transmission engaged solidly, he did not think it was coming from there, and the dampener seemed to fit the bill. He showed me the page in the shop manual that I posted that shows how the dampener can ride up in the notch if the spring is weak. He also confessed that he did not KNOW with certainty that this was the problem - it just seemed like the most likely.

I will say that I am skeptical about the u-joint. In my experience with car u-j's, they shout for help by vibrating. I've never seen one so loose that it moves laterally enough to bang a surrounding tube (tho, I admit I don't know how much clearance is in there on the ST). And it seems to me that if there is play in my u-j, it should not be perceived as coming from the center front of the motor. But I will investigate this weekend when I can get a friend to help.