Clutch 07 ST1300A

Found a good write up on how to, seems simple enough. But what are we buying? Barnetts?(ran these in the drag bike and my V65 Magna, loved 'em) Stock? Metals *and* frictions? Bike will be used for some two up touring. I'm what could be described as an aggressive rider.
Noticed after about an hour on the highway, my NTM 07 tended to slip when I do a hard roll on. I'm supposing that is probably due to the fact that in it's previous life it was a training bike for moto PD. They stress "cover the clutch and brake" But, there's covering and then there's "covering".......so, I'm assuming the frictions must have taken a beating. Winters coming so I'll have time. What sayeth the hordes?
Gotta pull some tupperware for some cosmetic repairs anyway, may as well dig in. Other than that, it performed...... well, it was an ST..... Steady up to about 110, then I felt a vibration, will be checking bearings. Corbin on the way, Bestem on the way.....let the farkling begin.

Not sure about the clutch, but for the vibration, I'd check the tires/balance first .

Also make sure the oil in your bike is non-energy-conserving, as the extra slick stuff has been known to cause slipping.

--Mark

Oil change just done at Honda dealer before purchase. One would assume....but, maybe ill give them call. They did say they had done an inspection, but I found 4 screw missing out of the belly pan, 1 front turn signal bulb out, and socket installed incorrectly, and brake lightvinoperable off front lever. Wire fell off, had them replaced the bulb, and install socket correctly. So yeah, I'll give them a call first.

Update. Took the bike out with the missus, did a 160 mile trip. Didn't notice any slipping. I'm wondering if the fact that the bike sat for a while contributed? Of course, when I'm with the missus, the right hand doesn't play as much. Will test again when I'm running solo.

WITH THE THROTTLE!!! I just reread that...needed to clarify.

Ozzie said:

needed to clarify

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Very smart to clarify!

Mark said:

Very smart to clarify!

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I liked the 1st version

When I bought my 03 st1300 in 06, it had 20k miles on it. It had dino oil in it, but the previous owner had run synthetic in it. I'm not hard on clutches- don't do fast starts, never slip when shifting etc. Second week I had it I did a high gear roll on up to about 115mph. The clutch started slipping so I backed off. Over the next 500 mi it got worse. The last time I rode it, I could only reach about 35mph in 3rd gear because it was slipping so bad.

Replaced all steel & friction plates with stock and found some aftermarket clutch springs that were a bit stiffer that I used for the rebuild. Ran the bike with Castrol GTX 10w40 oil for 100k additional miles with no problems. Bike still had negligible oil consumption between 6k mile oil changes when I sold it with 121k miles in 2013.

Conclusions:
1. Stock clutch plates are fine.
2. Dino oil like Castrol GTX is all you need for good lubrication.
3. 6k miles oil change interval is fine.
4. Synthetic oil is risky as you might get a type with friction reducers. All you have to do is contaminate the clutch plates and even if you switch back to regular oil you can still have a problem.
5. My ST1300 had an extended Honda warranty. It did not cover my clutch repair as the bike had had synthetic oil in it. That repair cost about $600 for parts & labor.
6. ST1300 clutches rarely fail if dino oil is used exclusively.
7. If you're buying a used ST1300 don't touch it with a ten foot pole if it's ever had synthetic oil in it. There is no way to know if they used the synthetic with friction reducers or not. Previous owner of my bike never turned the throttle hard so the synthetic worked fine for him.

Those of you who love to use synthetic oil will laugh at the above advice, so I repeat:
Don't twist your throttle too hard and you'll be fine, even with the wrong synthetic oil that has friction reducers.

Best wishes,

Norm Kern
'14 FJR ES, 41k (favorite road bike ever)

Norm Kern said:

Those of you who love to use synthetic oil will laugh at the above advice...

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Nah, I'll just shake my head and wonder why 1995-vintage misinformation is still being bandied about like it's gospel.

Conclusions:
...
4. [-]Synthetic[/-] oil is risky as you might get a type with friction reducers.

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Fixed that for you. Conventional oil is available in energy-conserving formulations, too.

You have no data about what was in your bike when you bought it or what had been in it previously other than "was synthetic, now conventional." The EC/non-EC variable is a big unknown, and the fact that wet clutches are known to have problems with EC oils points more in that direction than it does synthetic vs. conventional.

5. My ST1300 had an extended Honda warranty. It did not cover my clutch repair as the bike had had synthetic oil in it.

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The warranty didn't cover the repair because the clutch wasn't defective.

7. If you're buying a used ST1300 don't touch it with a ten foot pole if it's ever had [-]synthetic[/-] oil in it. There is no way to know if they used the synthetic with friction reducers or not.

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There's also no way to know if they used 3-in-1, Wesson or J&J baby oil. Sounds like the right thing to do is just stay away from used bikes entirely.

--Mark

Blrfl said:

Nah, I'll just shake my head and wonder why 1995-vintage misinformation is still being bandied about like it's gospel.

Fixed that for you. Conventional oil is available in energy-conserving formulations, too.

You have no data about what was in your bike when you bought it or what had been in it previously other than "was synthetic, now conventional." The EC/non-EC variable is a big unknown, and the fact that wet clutches are known to have problems with EC oils points more in that direction than it does synthetic vs. conventional.

The warranty didn't cover the repair because the clutch wasn't defective.

There's also no way to know if they used 3-in-1, Wesson or J&J baby oil. Sounds like the right thing to do is just stay away from used bikes entirely.
--Mark

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Mark,

It just so happens that I have the complete maintenance log from the previous owner.(For brevity, I have not shown all maintenance, only engine oil related stuff. Here you go:
06-03-04 4708 Miles Changed oil and filter with Honda filter and Shell Rotella T 5w40 synthetic oil
08-13-04 10,461 Miles Changed oil and filter with Honda filter and Shell Rotella T 5w40 synthetic oil
03-16-05 14,507 Miles Changed oil and filter. Honda filter and Rotella T Synthetic 5w40 oil
10-20-2005 19,155 miles Changed oil &filter. Used Amsoil 10w-40 synthetic, Honda filter
02-11-2006 19,224 miles Noticed small drop of coolant under bike on garage floor. Took off plastic and noticed a very small leak out of one of the thermostat housing hoses. Tightened up all hose clamps and took bike to Honda of Middletown to be double checked. They were unable to duplicate coolant leak. Oil and filter were changed, as a result of a miscommunication, Factory filter and Honda GN4 10w-40 oil.

10-07-2006 20,603 miles Bought by Norm Kern.
10-15-2006 Went for 340 mile ride to Stockport with Roger. Discovered slipping clutch problem.
11-03-2006 Rode bike to Western Hills Honda. Clutch slipped so much toward end of trip that second gear had to be used.
11-09-2006 After warranty coverage was denied, (Honda rep said the reasons were 1. Too many types of oil used. 2. Bike had previous owners. 3. Bike had 21k miles.) Western Hills Honda estimates $790 for repair, says will be less if engine does not need to be removed as per shop manual.
11-15-2006 Take bike to a friend who is an independent mechanic. He repairs bike for about $550 including parts. Heavy duty clutch spring kit was made by Vesrah, don't recall the part no.

No problems with the clutch since. Ran on Honda GN4 until the warranty expired then went to Castrol GTX 10w40. Bike had 120k mi when I sold it and had no wear or oil consumption issues. Good enough for me. Following the manufacturer's recommendations as closely as possible also eliminates a possible dispute if there is a warranty claim.

I stand by my statement that buying a used bike that has had synthetic lubricants is an additional risk. The previous owner may have been ignorant of the need to avoid ES additives. While it is true that some petroleum oils now have them, they are more common in synthetics.

Norm Kern

Blrfl said:

There's also no way to know if they used 3-in-1, Wesson or J&J baby oil. Sounds like the right thing to do is just stay away from used bikes entirely.
--Mark

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Mark,

Have you ever, in your whole life, known or heard about anyone using 3-in-1, Wesson or J&J baby oil as an engine lubricant? Me neither! Kudos to you for sarcastic, condescending humor.

Norm Kern

I'd have to say that a clutch is a wear item like brake pads and would be surprised if ever covered under warranty.

50K+ miles for me, original clutch with various synthetic and semi-syn. oils no slippage.

Back when I had my GV1400 Cavalcade, the clutch started slipping when opening the throttle in fifth gear (that motor had lots of low end torque). I took the clutch apart to take a look at the discs, but wasn't sure what I was looking for so I took them to my local trusted Honda/Suzuki dealer to their service department. They pointed out a few slightly discolored steel discs, but advised me that they didn't appear in need of replacement, just clean everything up and lightly sand the fiber discs, then reassemble and ride. Service manager informed me that the 'Cades clutches were practically bullet-proof. I measured the free-standing height of the clutch springs and found them to be at or slightly below the minimum spec, so replaced them with a set of after-market heavy duty springs (Barnett, IIRC).
Problem solved, no more slipping clutch.

Norm Kern said:

I stand by my statement that buying a used bike that has had synthetic lubricants is an additional risk.

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You're more than welcome to do so, but I think all you're accomplishing is the spread of old wives' tales. I can't draw a line between synthetics and the clutch failure on your bike because a few things are missing:

An assessment of the condition of your factory clutch. Without a post-mortem on what came out when the clutch was replaced, you can't say with any certainty that synthetic oil was the cause. If the plates, discs and springs measured in-spec and the friction surfaces weren't glazed, I'd be much more inclined to agree with you. The description of your clutch failure sounds more to me like it was brought about by wear rather than just the lubricant. It would be fair to argue that a less-slippery oil would have let the clutch go longer before it started to slip, but if it's worn, it only delays the inevitable. Don B's story about his Cavalcade is a perfect example of why doing the measurements is so important.

Differences between conventional and synthetic oils that would matter. JASO MA sets an upper limit for how slippery the oil can be because the spec was developed specifically for wet clutch applications. There's no constraint on the composition of the oil; just meet API SG or later (or one of its ACEA or ILSAC counterparts) and the friction limits and you're good to go. There are scads of products on the market that manage to be fully-synthetic and meet JASO MA, some of which are even on JASO's approved list. There's nothing magic about the approval process; the manufacturer sends JASO a letter saying they comply and a check and JASO sends back a number they can print on the bottle. JASO doesn't test the product before issuing the number. In my book, that makes the claim of compliance with MA on the back of a bottle of Rotella T as valid as the rectangle JASO MA rectangle on the back of a bottle of Honda HP4S.

More people having the same problem. Many of us -- heck, I'd wager most of us -- are using synthetics in our bikes, all without problem when they're the right thing. Curt Gran started using synthetic in his '04 at 4,000 miles (and once lamented not having done it earlier), went on to run it to 160,000 miles on the original clutch and then racked up a big pile of miles on the '07 that replaced it. In the decade I've been a member here, I don't recall anyone having a problem with a slipping clutch that could be pinned to oil meeting the requirements in the manual. On the other hand, there have been several cases of EC-induced slipping. And just to be clear, I agree with you that dino oil is just fine; I've run a few gallons of it myself when my preferred synthetic wasn't easy to get.

Norm Kern said:

Have you ever, in your whole life, known or heard about anyone using 3-in-1, Wesson or J&J baby oil as an engine lubricant? Me neither! Kudos to you for sarcastic, condescending humor.

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Stranger things have happened. I hadn't known or heard of people using EC oil in applications where the manufacturer specifically says not to use it. And then one day I had. Anyway, I wasn't trying to be condescending, just sarcastic. The point buried in all of that was that the wrong stuff is the wrong stuff whether it's right on every point other than being EC or on no points at all like Wesson. For all either of us knows, the dealer that last serviced your bike before you bought it poured in HP4M (JASO MB, not for wet clutches) because they didn't have any GN4 on the shelf, told the previous owner he put in Honda oil and the owner took that to mean GN4. The only way to completely avert the risks is to buy a brand new bike and service it yourself or keep a very close eye on the people who do it for you.

--Mark

Pete in PA said:

I'd have to say that a clutch is a wear item like brake pads and would be surprised if ever covered under warranty.

50K+ miles for me, original clutch with various synthetic and semi-syn. oils no slippage.

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Same here except 150K+ miles. I practice a lot of low speed work in the friction zone and I'm no stranger to twisting the throttle.

dduelin said:

Same here except 150K+ miles. I practice a lot of low speed work in the friction zone and I'm no stranger to twisting the throttle.

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150k on the original clutch, including the extra the low speed stuff?

paulcb said:

150k on the original clutch, including the extra the low speed stuff?

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156,123 to be exact.

dduelin said:

156,123 to be exact.

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Wow Dave, I had no idea they would last that long, especially with a lot of low speed operation. Oil you run?

paulcb said:

Wow Dave, I had no idea they would last that long, especially with a lot of low speed operation. Oil you run?

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At various times I have used Honda 10w40 mineral (few K), Castrol Syntech 10w40 (about 50k), Rotella 15w40 mineral (few K), Rotella 5w40 synthetic (about 35K), Mobil One 10w40 full syn MC oil (about 40K), Mobil One 5w40 full syn Turbo Diesel Oil (bout 20K). A few changes were Delo400 15w40 here and there.

I change oil around 3500 miles on mineral oils and 5 or 6,000 on synthetics. I know I could go 8,000 on mineral and much longer on synthetic but I don't. Except for one PL14610 (it leaked at the O ring) all filters have been Honda MC or Honda/Acura car filters. Gasp and hold on - sometimes I change the filter every other oil change. I know, I'm trashing the motor.

As far as I know there have been no oil related failures in ST motors. Mine burns no discernible oil between OCIs and still pulls 142 mph like it did when new.

dduelin said:

Gasp and hold on - sometimes I change the filter every other oil change. I know, I'm trashing the motor.

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You're such a rebel... I'm surprised she's still running!

Thanks for the info.