ABS wheel sensors

Jamesgss · Dec 31, 2015

Hi guys
Trying to identify the problems of an ABS on a ST1100 1996 AT that is not working, seems by all the treads here that I'm not the only one and you chaps must be sick to the back teeth talking about it! Indulge me!
I'm not getting any fault codes and think must have been broken for some time as when I bought it after stripping off the plastic I noticed the warning lights had been disconnected. Mean trick!
After following a thead and instructions contained therein, I tried the spinning wheels individually trick after clearing the empty codes and found the front sensor flashed on the console but the rear did not.
Firstly I cannot get the rear sensor out to try the swap around trick and secondly I have no guarantee that the rear is faulty anyway!
Do I trash the rear one when getting it out trying not to break the mount just to confirm the front is good?
I can get a secondhand rear sensor, so is there a way of testing it with say a multimeter when I get it to save me trashing the old one?
So many questions, help!!
Cheers

Jamesgss · Jan 1, 2016

Thanks John
Yes indeed it was one of your threads, and jolly useful it is too. The Haynes manual I have just says to refer to the dealer and when I asked them they were as much use as a carrying handle on a tank! All they say is to check it in and no doubt a few days later and several hundred quid down I'll be no further down the road!
I had not heard of the wheel spinning test so thanks for that. If no flashing from the rear wheel sensor is that a define? The reason for asking is it simply means I can drill out the old one as I have already tried to remove it when I refurbished the swingarm and had to remove the final drive housing with sensor attached. I too was very wary about giving it a good wallop, which is what I really wanted to do, as I am firmiliar with the metal that the Japs use; tensile strength of Swiss cheese!
I too saw the homemade bracket, effective. I believe it was because he used a sensor from something else which only cost him about ?15! Good drills! I have seen an original secondhand one for ?38 with the reassurance that it works so I will try my utmost to not to damage the casting on the final drive housing, wish me luck!
I am really hoping it is only the rear sensor as I am hopeless with electrics. Will keep you informed, it is so reassuring to know there are guys out there willing to help. Thanks.
I am near Diss in East Anglia, bit of a tab from you, but we seem to have the same weather to contend with unlike our cousins across the pond. How can they put up with all the sunshine!!
Best regards
James

MaxPete · Jan 1, 2016

James: I've never seen an ST1100 ABS sensor in the flesh but I've worked on a lot of equipment and I wonder if rather than trying to tap it out, could you press it out with something like a c-clamp (used for carpentry) and some bits of wood. Also, sometimes if you put a clamp on a stuck part and put a little bit of force on it and then use a small torch (even a cigarette lighter or a hair drying on high temp) to warm up the housing around the offending component, it will simply pop out when the housing expands a few thou.

Not or trying to be a know-it-all, but I'd hate to see you bust the housing casing by giving it a clout.

Jamesgss · Jan 1, 2016

Thanks I'll give that a go too! Especially as I am also a carpenter!

Jamesgss · Jan 1, 2016

I have measured the voltage across the two outside contacts in the three pinned connector and I'm getting 6.4v! Good/bad? If that is too high, could it have blown the sensor?
Way I feel at the moment is at least I'm getting something!
Pain of it is that to try to push or drill the old sensor out I will have to remove the drive housing to get the angle! P.I.T.A!

Jamesgss · Jan 2, 2016

John, I applaud you in making your own manual as far as the ABS is concerned, bet the guys in the workshop were a bit embarrassed, if not they should have been!
The pressing idea is a good one but I yes the reality of arranging a method to do it will require some thought.
I was just wondering if it was official that no flashing means duff sensor, because if it was only the most likely cenario then I will try to remove it carefully, but if definite then I'll just drill it out and not risk breaking the casting. It is probably weakened anyway from before when I did whack it a little!
The pain of it is that to drill it out I'll have to remove drive housing and because I have Motads I will have have to remove the left one just to remove the axle as they don't have the cut out on the underside and it took me an age to get a seal last time. Never mind, needs must!
To be honest when I got any voltage reading at all from the connector it was encouraging, another pointer to the sensor being at fault!
Thanks for your help again!
Will keep you informed and hope I don't come back with a "oh deary me" moment!
Funny about Jim'll breakit as I used to have a business called Jim'll Fix It!!

George · Jan 2, 2016

James, I had a bad rear wheel sensor on my 01, tried the aftermarket route to replace it with no luck. Others have made it work. Friend Mark sent me the sensor off his wrecked bike and that fixed the problem. I then bought him a new one as a replacement. It's been good for about 3 years now. Wish we had a spare floating around the 'nets like some of the tool kits available.

Best wishes, keep us poSTed.

Jamesgss · Jan 2, 2016

Thanks for the advice George. Once I get the old one out and swap over to confirm the problem then I should be able to get my hands on a cheap second hand original.
I like the idea of using parts from other places that are cheap and do the job well, but I am not yet experienced enough to dabble in making my own electrics. Hopefully that day will come.
The reason I want to bypass Honda, if at all possible, is because every time I go to their spares department they don't even have the curtesy to put on a mask before they rob me! Dick Turpin could learn something from them!

MaxPete · Jan 2, 2016

Hi All: I have followed this thread with interest because mechanical design is my thing. I claim no (zero) knowledge of ST1100 rear wheel ABS sensors or the geometry of the installation with respect to pressing it out, but it is remarkable to me that Honda designed the assembly in such a way that changing the sensor is such a nightmare. You folks seem to be faced with a sensor that is nearly impossible to remove and replace resulting in the choice of either wrecking an expensive casting or riding without ABS. Just like another recent thread on engine cam and balancer drive chain tensioners, these people (Honda) appear to have really dropped the ball on this one. Anyhow, keep on keepin' on.

Jamesgss · Jan 3, 2016

Hi Max Pete,
I don't think in this case that it is the design of the shape/position etc that is the problem, it seems to be the materials from which they are made! I have always had a problem with the metal that Japanese manufacturers use especially their nuts and bolt, they just have no tensile strength at all. Any rust or corrosion and they round or sheer off. I'm sure I'm not the only one to have that complaint! One tip I would give to mechanics dealing with these bolts made of cheese, if it's not too obvious, is to always use 6 point sockets, not the 12, you only then have to contend with the sheering effect and less of the rounding!
The problem is always the person before you that 'has a go' and never properly thus, as we say, 'quering the pitch' for everyone else. One case in point, and I've read others here have been similarly exasperated, by the bolt at the bottom of the shock, again attaching to the weak casting of the drive housing. It was already rounded off when I came to it so used numerous methods of removal. Very tempted to cut a slot and use an impact driver but again obvious damage would result. Had to weld a 20 mm nut on top to get good purchase!
In this particular case you have very different metals in close proximity in a place that is going to get the worst of the weather and they are not originally put in with adequate protection (copperslip, molly, graphite grease etc, or mechanical protection in the former of a cover) to stop the inevitable. If you are a mechanical engineer perhaps you could explain a little further on this or perhaps there is also some sort of chemical reaction going on in that two metals plus liquid, salt and corrosion may cause some kind of fusion, what do you think? Just a theory from my schoolboy chemistry days! Think you chaps call it 'spiffballing ', correct?!
James

ST1100Y · Jan 3, 2016

MaxPete said:
...it is remarkable to me that Honda designed the assembly in such a way that changing the sensor is such a nightmare...

Well, to avoid damage while handling, it would be mandatory to remove the wheel sensors every time(!) before taking the heavy wheels off the bike...
After the wheels have been installed again, the air gap should be checked and properly adjusted... (yep, that's what the feeler-gauge in pouch of the ABS/TCS & ABS/CBS tool-kit is provided for... you will not find it in the set of the standard models...)...
Any motivated, well trained mech would actually do so, far more, even smear a slight film of anti-seize or copper-slip on the surfaces, easing his very own task the next time that rig comes in... (just an SOP as smearing a dab of marine grease on the axles to avoid them from rusting...)

Now take an adjudicated guess... right, them sensors didn't got removed ever, for decades, instead rather banged up frequently with the sensor-ring...

To overcome that long time neglect, now one can only work with penetration oils, heat and lots of patience...

SMSW · Jan 3, 2016

I know nothing about 1100's but troubleshooting is more or less standard for a lot of occupations. If there are other components in the system that you are testing, such as connectors, wiring harness, electronic processors, etc. then how about this? Since John mentioned swapping the sensors why not pull the front sensor (the good one, right?) and plug it into the rear sensor's harness. Make a temporary bracket of some kind (even cardboard and sticky tape) to hold the good sensor near the toothed wheel. You now have a good sensor on the rear (the original rear is still frozen to the bracket but is unplugged) and when you spin the wheel, if you get the flashes, then the system is ok and your stuck rear sensor is, as you say, duff.

Btw, take it easy if you try to drill that sensor out. If the metal is as fragile as stated, then the torque of the drill motor might snap the bracket when the bit grabs some internal parts of the sensor. Go slowly - it might be a good idea to use a battery op drill with a clutch set on the lightest setting and increase this as needed. If you do pull the rear apart to remove the sensor, soaking the bracket/sensor area overnight in a bath of WD-40 or similar might help. If corrosion is really the culprit, I think nothing much will help. When iron rusts, it expands to 17 times its original volume, and when aluminum alloys corrode, they expand too. This is what you are fighting. Lube alone will not really make this better - some form of gentle force will be needed (I like that C-clamp idea if you can make it work).

Goo luck, and Happy New Year!

MaxPete · Jan 3, 2016

Jamesgss said:
Hi Max Pete,
I don't think in this case that it is the design of the shape/position etc that is the problem, it seems to be the materials from which they are made! I have always had a problem with the metal that Japanese manufacturers use especially their nuts and bolt, they just have no tensile strength at all. Any rust or corrosion and they round or sheer off. I'm sure I'm not the only one to have that complaint! One tip I would give to mechanics dealing with these bolts made of cheese, if it's not too obvious, is to always use 6 point sockets, not the 12, you only then have to contend with the sheering effect and less of the rounding!
The problem is always the person before you that 'has a go' and never properly thus, as we say, 'quering the pitch' for everyone else. One case in point, and I've read others here have been similarly exasperated, by the bolt at the bottom of the shock, again attaching to the weak casting of the drive housing. It was already rounded off when I came to it so used numerous methods of removal. Very tempted to cut a slot and use an impact driver but again obvious damage would result. Had to weld a 20 mm nut on top to get good purchase!
In this particular case you have very different metals in close proximity in a place that is going to get the worst of the weather and they are not originally put in with adequate protection (copperslip, molly, graphite grease etc, or mechanical protection in the former of a cover) to stop the inevitable. If you are a mechanical engineer perhaps you could explain a little further on this or perhaps there is also some sort of chemical reaction going on in that two metals plus liquid, salt and corrosion may cause some kind of fusion, what do you think? Just a theory from my schoolboy chemistry days! Think you chaps call it 'spiffballing ', correct?!
James

Hi James: I guess a key point is that design engineering includes both the geometry of the part AND the materials from which it is made. The two must go together for a truly successful and servicable design to result. Anyhow, lots of good comments here on a challenging service issue. Finally, I think the American term is actually "spitballing" - but I could be wrong. Cheers and best of luck with it!
Pete

Jamesgss · Jan 3, 2016

Point taken, but whichever way you look at it, someone in the design dept needs a kick up the jacksie!
Apologies for not noticing your country of origin!
J

MaxPete · Jan 3, 2016

Agreed and no problems.

Jamesgss · Jan 5, 2016

Hi guys
The rear sensor is out! Amazingly with no damage to the sensor housing bracket on the final drive! Drilled it out as expected without any adverse effects. Did that because when I removed the cable tie securing the cable to the rubber grommet, the cable came away thus proving that the wires had been severed previously thus rendering the sensor useless.
While I was about it with the wheel off and final drive housing out, decided to remove the fuel tank and repaint as there was rust underneath where mud etc had been kicked up by the rear wheel also fitted an exta internal mudguard by means of a cheap car footwell mat. Works a treat!
When I eventually receive the new sensor, let's hope it works!
The flies will soon be on my teeth!!
James

Jamesgss · Jan 7, 2016

Gents,
New sensor is in but unfortunately the system still does not work! Annoying to say the least. So now I need your help on the next stage of my search for the fault.
Recap; front sensor works as the warning light flashes when wheel is rotated on centre stand after fault memory is erased, no flashing as far as the rear wheel is concerned. Reading of 6.4 volts from the left and right contacts in the rear sensor connector. When ignition first turned on the warning lights come on and stay on. The system fails to show any faults on retrieval. Connections have been sprayed with electrical connector cleaner.
Any ideas?!!
Anything help is greatly appreciated!
James

Jamesgss · Jan 7, 2016

Again, thank you John for that. Will carry out the checks you recommend interested to know what end to check from the three pin connector for continuity. Have been assured that the sensor I put in is working so the first thing I will do is put the front sensor on the back to see if I get the flashing, if not then I will look at the continuity of the wiring. I appreciate it is something that you found worked for you but as I got the front one to flash then I assume it works for the back too as it did on your AY.
I am praying it is not a modulator, have you seen the prices!!?
Will keep keeping on!

Jamesgss · Jan 8, 2016

Ready for the next enthralling episode?!
The fuses were checked and passed. I removed both sensors but had to remove the front sensor in its bracket as, you guessed it, I could not get it out of the bracket! As a result of the sensor working in previous tests I was not about to start struggling with it in case of ending up with two malfunctioning sensors. So I connected the front sensor wiring to the rear wiring connector and held it carefully over the pulsar ring at the appropriate gap whilst the bike ticked over in second gear on the centre stand. Amazingly the warning lights flashed hopefully indicating that the wiring from the rear sensor is good.
I also used a multimeter in similar ways on both three pinned sensor connectors and got different readings from each.
All leads me to believe that the second rear sensor is also faulty!
Again gentlemen, I would be grateful for your thoughts.

Thanks

Jamesgss · Jan 9, 2016

Yes, when I received the sensor I put it in the bike fully expecting it to work even though it was a secondhand unit, I was assured that it worked. I first did the flash trick when it was in and nothing! When I initially rode it there was no change to the lights from last time, they stayed on. So I then did as you suggested and removed the front to put on the back but could not get it out of the bracket, so I just plugged it into the rear harness and held it (carefully!) over the pulsar ring and to my relief the warning lights flashed. I then tried the multimeter and even though I don't know what I'm doing with it, the same sequence of contacts on the front sensor connector did not produce the same results as that on the rear!
It was from a young 98 ST with only 29k on it and thought it would be ok as Honda assured me that the sensors for the 98 and the 96 are the same. Luckily the breaker I got it from has happily agreed to refund.
Have been in touch with Jim'll breakit about the other sensor he fitted as I'm damned if I will pay ?300 for a new Honda part!